My updated ranking with all the films:
Shrek 3 is a good movie.
I can give Lucas a bit of slack for the lucklusterness of the PT and ROTJ, since he was ultimately just trying to make pulpy Flash Gordon-esque adventures, not high-art movies. ANH and ESB, however, were so good that they’re generally considered to have entered into the realm of high art. He then fell into a trap where his subsequent films were expected to be masterpieces as well, and I agree that he could have definitely done better on them. But since he really knocked it out of the park on his first 2 SW films, fans’ expectations were higher than his.
I agree 100%. It’s fair to have high expectations, but expecting every Star Wars movie to be a perfect, flawless work of art is unrealistic, and it’s exactly what a lot of fans don’t seem to understand. Star Wars is always beautiful, even when it has some flaws. If it didnt have flaws, there would be nothing to talk about, and places like this forum wouldn’t even exist.
Personally, I think that it’s way more fun to fill in the blanks with your own imagination than having TV shows, books and comics before, between, and after the movies. Using your own imagination to imagine what happened between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith is way more fun than watching The Clone Wars, or reading the Clone Wars Multimedia Project. Using your own imagination to imagine what happened in the Old Republic era is much more fun than playing Knights of the Old Republic, or playing the Old Republic MMO. Using your own imagination to imagine Luke’s future adventures after Return of the Jedi is way more fun than reading the EU, or watching the Sequels.
From my own experience, I can tell that casual fans are the kind of fans that experience Star Wars in the best possible way. When you are overly attached and overly obsessed with Star Wars, you have nothing but constant arguments and continuous headaches, you always find something to criticize, and the way you experience Star Wars is not as relaxed as it should be. On the other hand, when you are a more casual fan who just wants to enjoy Star Wars and doesn’t care very much about anything outside of the films, you really have the best experience because you have a more relaxed approach to the whole thing. Sure, you can still dislike some of the movies, but you will have a more relaxed approach in general, because your dislike will not go beyond the simple “I don’t like this, this and that”, without carrying your sentiment over time as if it was an obsession, indeed, and without being frustrated for the rest of your life because things didn’t go the way you wanted to.
I think I had a couple of ideas that could fix the Sequel Trilogy. However, they can’t be implemented right now, because they are very radical ideas and we still don’t have the means to implement them. Therefore, we should wait for the technology to advance enough as to allow us to create entire new scenes, with a good mix of AI and CGI.
My ideas are:
Modifying the reason that brought Luke to go into exile in The Last Jedi. Instead of going into exile to hide from his responsibilities, Luke went into exile to meditate, understand what he did wrong with Kylo and his New Jedi Order, and study a way to defeat the First Order. When Rey arrives, he realizes that the time has come, so he tells Rey what he did wrong, what the Jedi Order from the Prequels did wrong, and tells her that the Jedi need to be reformed (exactly in the same way Luke reformed the Jedi Order in Legends by abolishing some of the old rules). Then, he dies at the end of The Last Jedi by sacrificing himself to allow the Resistance to escape from Crait.
In The Rise of Skywalker, Palpatine doesn’t come back. Instead, it is Snoke the one who comes back. After all, if Palpatine can come back, why can’t Snoke? So, everything from The Rise of Skywalker would be very similar to the original version of the movie, but with resurrected Snoke instead of resurrected Palpatine. Snoke pretends to want to give Kylo another chance to rule the Galaxy with him, and pushes him to bring Rey before him. However, when she arrives he reveals that she was his real target for the entire movie, because she is much more powerful than Kylo ever was, and Snoke wants her to become his new apprentice. He reveals that Rey is Palpatine’s granddaughter, and that this is the reason for her abnormous power. Then, he also reveals that he has always been Vitiate all along, and has waited in hiding since the times of the Old Republic. He was waiting for the right time to come and reclaim the Galaxy for himself.
In the final confrontation with resurrected Snoke/Vitiate, the Force ghosts of Anakin, Luke, Leia, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Qui-Gon appear. Anakin’s ghost is the one who actually defeats Snoke/Vitiate, thus ending the Sith for good, and confirming that he was indeed the Chosen One who was destined to destroy the Sith once and for all.
At the end of The Rise of Skywalker, both Rey and a redeemed Ben Solo survive. We have a small time jump of some years, and the last thing we see is the two of them standing before a class of students in the New Jedi Temple on Naboo, telling them about the adventures of Luke and Anakin Skywalker, and teaching them the importance of redemption.
What do you think?
Me too.
Although I respect everyone’s opinions, I have never understood people who say that the Prequels shouldn’t have existed and that it wasn’t necessary to know Anakin Skywalker’s backstory. Personally, I am of the opinion that knowing the backstory of a villain makes the moment of his redemption way more impactful. If you don’t know the backstory of a villain, the moment in which he is redeemed is certainly beautiful, but It is not so impactful. He remains simply that, a villain who is redeemed. On the contrary, if you know the reasons why he became a villain, then the moment of his redemption takes on a completely different meaning.
Spartacus01 said:
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to attack you or anything. But I think that you are being guilty of the same extremism you are criticizing. You said: “You can look at them as pieces of pop entertainment or as serious films or both, but you don’t have to go to extremes either way”, which is totally correct. But then, when it comes to the history of the movies and their appreciation by the fandom, you did the same thing you are preaching against: generalizing. Sure, I’m one of those millennials who were not around at the time, I became a Star Wars fan in 2018. But I don’t think that saying that everyone hated the movies is fair. I think that it is more fair to say that the fanbase felt very divided about them. I have known a lot of people who liked them from the beginning, just as I have known a lot of people who disliked them from the beginning. There were a lot of fans who liked the Prequels in the 2000s, just as there were a lot of fans who hated them in the same time period. Saying that everyone hated the movies is unfair to the people who always liked them. And they exist, denying their existence is unfair too. Furthermore, I have known a lot of people who became fans of the Saga only in recent years, watched the Prequels as adults, and liked them a lot. I’m one of them. So, to say that they became popular in recent years only because of nostalgia and the memes is a bit unfair too. I liked them when I first watched them. And I was already 18 when I watched them, so I didn’t have any nostalgia for them.I was a teenager when TPM came out in 1999. I wouldn’t say everyone hated the Prequels initially at the time. But it would be hard to be alive during 1999 thru 2005 and not conclude that, in general, on average, people did not like these movies. These were not to be new classics, like the OT. They were instead the endless punch line of jokes across pop culture (e.g. the Southpark episode mocking Jar Jar, etc.) I never actually met anyone at the time (in my circle of friends or outside it) who actually thought these movies were genuinely good. At best, you had people saying that ROTS was good but the others sucked.
Now - of course, the whole paragraph I just typed is nothing but anecdotal evidence. It proves nothing. And of course, there were also many Prequel fans in 1999-2005 as well who passionately defended these films (just look at theforce.net). To get a truly accurate sense of general public or average fan opinion at the time these movies were released, you would need to have conducted properly-worded opinion polls that randomly sampled some cross section of movie-goers. Unfortunately, such comprehensive scientific polls were not conducted as far as I know. So the only thing I have is my anecdotal impression from having lived through that time. My conjecture, based on anecdotal evidence, is something like 60% to 70% of Star Wars fans (provided we could agree on the definition of “Star Wars fan”) had a negative opinion of two or more of these films. But again, I certainly cannot prove this, and I admit that negative opinions are likely to be voiced more loudly than positive opinions, potentially biasing my impression.
A bit more objectively, I can say that the media at least was more hostile to the Prequels than they were to the first two Disney films, which may have affected fan opinion. If I were inclined to devote time to it, I could probably prove this assertion by randomly sampling popular Internet or print publications or opinion pieces discussing the Prequels from 1999 through 2005. This would probably produce something like 65% negative, 35% positive sentiment, averaged across the three films, in my estimate (again a conjecture). Maybe closer to 60% negative, 40% positive right after ROTS. I could be wildly off, but I would be very surprised.
What I can say for sure is that nowadays there are a lot of ideas about the Prequels floating around the Internet that are blatant revisionist history. These ideas include things like “everyone loved the Prequels until those Plinkett reviews came out in 2009”. This is certainly false. Almost every single criticism made in those videos was typical stuff discussed between friends and pre-social media Internet forums long before Plinkett. (For fun, here’s a 1999 review of TPM that essentially makes the same points found in your typical anti-Prequel youtube video nowadays).
Also, remember that in 1999, TPM was hyped as this monumental, Earth-shattering event - with Lucas descending once again from
Mount SinaiSkywalker Ranch to deliver unto us a New Testament from a Galaxy far far away. I lived through both the hype of Phantom Menace and the hype of Force Awakens, and the hype for Force Awakens was nothing compared to what happened in 1999. Remember, at this time, the fanbase was mostly unified, and viewed George Lucas as this master storyteller of unparalleled creative genius who could do no wrong (except Howard the Duck). This environment certainly did not help when the movies came out and not only failed to live up to the hype, but seemed to be just weirdly mediocre movies in general.
Don’t get me wrong, it wasn’t my intention to start a discussion about how the Prequel Trilogy was received by the fandom. Personally, I’ve never been one of those people who’s always tried to prove that the Prequels weren’t as hated as everybody say, because I never gave a damn in general. I have my own opinions, and even if I were the only person in the world who liked the Prequels, I would still like them anyway. I don’t care about what people think, therefore it wasn’t my intention to start a discussion about the fan reception of those films. What I was trying to say in the message you quoted is that, in my opinion, there is no denying that the hatred towards the Prequels was definitely exaggerated. I mean, as long as you just say “I don’t like those movies” and list the reasons why you don’t like them in a respectful way, then there is nothing wrong, because everyone has the right to have their own opinions and their own personal tastes, after all. The problem is that, as Mark Hamill also said, the hatred for the Prequels at the time went far beyond the simple “I don’t like them”. There are actors who have received death threats, actors who have even tried to commit suicide, and George Lucas was covered by a mountain of poop for almost 10 years. Objectively speaking, you can’t deny that this isn’t good. Even if the Prequels were the worst films ever created in the history of mankind, that still doesn’t justify the behavior that many toxic fans had at the time.
I can’t wait to watch both the trailer and the complete trilogy! I am always enthusiastic about fan edits that try to fix the Sequels, because I really, really want to have a good Sequel Trilogy for Star Wars, with all my heart.
The Sequels (my hypothetical fanedit where Palpatine never comes back)
Ah, that sounds interesting. Can you elaborate, please? What are your ideas to fix the Sequel Trilogy?
I personally think that Lucifer (the TV show) should have ended with Season 4. I know that ending it with Season 4 makes God look like an asshole, but I personally believe that it is still better than what happened in the last two seasons. Season 4 had A perfect finale in my opinion.
I know that this kind of contradicts both Canon and Legends encyclopedias, but I maintain that the first life forms in the entire history of the Galaxy developed on Naboo. Then, life spread from Naboo to the rest of the Galaxy through panspermia.
My personal Canon has changed again. After several months, I have abandoned my Legends purism, and I have decided to include what I think it is the best material from Disney’s New Canon. Besides, I have decided to eliminate the stories I actually never cared about in the first place. So, here’s my updated personal Canon:
I’ve decided to reintegrate the New Jedi Order series into my personal Canon, because the story is simply too epic and well-crafted to leave out. However, I’m still excluding any stories set after the NJO era. Not only for reasons I’ve already explained here, but also because I generally don’t enjoy them. Additionally, I’ve chosen to remove Knights of the Old Republic II from my Canon. I was never particularly fond of its storyline, and with The Old Republic largely ignoring and retconning it, the game isn’t essential for maintaining a coherent Old Republic timeline. In fact, excluding it actually makes the timeline more consistent.
The Sequel Trilogy should have been a Prequel Trilogy 2.0. They should have acknowledged the victories of the previous generation, and should have shown the Galaxy in a peaceful state at the beginning. Then, they should have shown how things started to get worse and worse, until someone falls to the Dark Side and destroys everything again. After that, the fourth trilogy should have been about re-establishing democracy and freedom in the Galaxy and fighting evil, like the Original Trilogy.
Superweapon VII said:
I generally accept the events of TOS as canon – minus such gems as “The Alternative Factor” and “Turnabout Intruder” – but not the visuals, which I think have aged terribly and look cheap/cheesy today. So I imagine the “true” TOS ships, uniforms, aliens, etc. looking closer to the ones in SNW, though I DO NOT consider SNW canon.
Hey, that’s basically what I do as well! I accept The Original Series, but I imagine it with the Strange New Worlds aesthetics, even though I don’t accept Strange New Worlds itself as Canon.
Fan_edit_fan said:
You’re coming across as ultra defensive and also that you weren’t alive then…or aware then. So since you obviously weren’t around for the release of the PT then sit down and chill out. Love the PT all you want.
I’m not ultra-defensive. I just find it annoying that there are people who try to portray the Prequel hate from the early 2000s as something acceptable and understandable, and who even deny the existence of Prequel fans before 2015. The Prequel hate from the early 2000s brought actors like Ahmed Best to almost commit suicide, not to mention the hundreds of death threats that Hayden Christensen received. Trying to defend the Prequel backlash of the time (or even reducing it to simple “criticism”) is intellectually dishonest, in my opinion. Of course, you can criticize the Prequels all you want. Hell, I criticize some aspects of the Prequels too (despite liking them for the most part). But you can’t deny that the level of hate and backlash they received was unnecessary, toxic, and sometimes even borderline insane.
Fan_edit_fan said:
I think it’s cruel you showed the movies in chronological order haha. You ruin the surprises of the OT.
The Vader twist from The Empire Strikes Back is something that almost the entire planet knows at this point, though. Even people who never saw Star Wars in their lives know that Darth Vader is Luke’s father. It is something that has become intrinsically part of pop culture. So I don’t think I’m ruining anything. Virtually every single person who interacted with pop culture know that. From my experience, there are more people who don’t know that Anakin Skywalker is Darth Vader than people who don’t know that Darth Vader is Luke’s father. Also, the chronological order is the order George Lucas told us to watch the movies, and there is a reason for that. Watching the Original Trilogy first gives you a different perception than watching the Prequel Trilogy first. Not to mention, I’m a meticulous person, so I always like to do things chronologically.
Fan_edit_fan said:
And on the other hand I DON’T believe you that they liked the PT more 🤷♂️.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I didn’t say that my friends liked the Prequels more than the Original Trilogy. I only said that they appreciated the Prequels more than the people who watched the movies in release order tend to do, precisely due to the fact that they watched the Prequels first.
Vladius said:
but in almost every way they had the same praises and criticisms people have always had about the prequels before the 2010s pseudo-revival
So they thought that the Prequels are the worst thing that ever happened to Star Wars and thought that they should be destroyed and remade? Because that’s what “people” thought before the “pseudo-revival”.
Anyway, every time I introduced a friend to Star Wars, I always made him/her watch the movies in chronological order, and every time it turned out that they actually liked the Prequels. For some reason, when people watch the Prequels first, they tend to like them more than if they watch them after the OT.
Okay, I finally finished watching the edits. You might not like what I’m about to say, but I personally think that being honest is always the best option.
I have five main criticisms:
I hope you didn’t get offended by my criticisms, I’m only trying to be honest.
I was thinking about the possibility of reconciling Palpatine’s resurrection with the Chosen One Prophecy.
What if Palpatine from The Rise of Skywalker is not the real Palpatine? Maybe he’s just a med clone who inherited Palpatine’s memory and who believes to be Palpatine. Maybe we can say that Palpatine actually created a clone of himself in order to transfer his Force essence, but he never discovered how to transfer his spirit. Yet, the clone still exists and gained a separated conscience.
This way, we can actually say that Anakin killed Palpatine, yet still have Palpatine in The Rise of Skywalker.
Can I have a link?
I’d like to have a link as well. I have waited for this for very long, and I just can’t wait to watch it!
To chime in again, I can understand the argument that the Jedi can be both correct about Anakin and the Force while being simultaneously flawed in their methods.
But for me, one of the big issues is that because of their flaws, whether perceived or legitimate, some people will say that the purge was justified and that the Jedi deserved it. (With an attitude not of sorrow or pity or even disappointment, but more like contempt.)
Mind you, I’m not talking about the idea that their mistakes could have created a domino effect that lead to their own demise - but rather the notion that they actually deserved to die such gruesome deaths, that it meant as a good thing to be celebrated, and that Lucas intended this idea.
Now, do we have the Jedi reform to overcome these flaws? Fair enough. I understand. But executed and mass murdered? Huh? I can’t agree with that.
Now with all that being said, I wouldn’t say the ‘Jedi deserved to die’ camp in particular is strong enough to make this take an unpopular opinion. This is just where my mind went and it’s probably not where anyone was going with this discussion though. I just thought it would be worth it to address.
I don’t think that the Jedi deserved the Purge. But I believe that they needed to be reformed, because I am of the opinion that some of their dogmas were wrong. As I said in another post, I think that the Jedi were good people with good intentions, and I believe that Anakin had serious psychological problems that needed to be fixed. However, I also believe that he can’t be 100% blamed for what happened, and I think that the Jedi made some mistakes with him. Therefore, I think that the downfall of the Jedi was kind of everyone’s fault. It was equally fault of Anakin, Palpatine, and the Jedi themselves. The same goes for Anakin’s fall to the Dark Side. In my opinion, it is way too simplistic to believe that the Jedi did nothing wrong and it was all Anakin and Palpatine’s fault, just as it is way too simplistic to believe that Anakin did nothing wrong and it was all fault of the Jedi Order.
Duel of the Fates is a great soundtrack, but I personally don’t think that it is as awesome as everybody say It is. And I studied music for several years.
I don’t like Padme. She loses the will to live because her heart got broken, despite having just given birth to two newborn children. Is being there for her vulnerable infants not enough to give her the will to live? Fuck them kids?
We could start a discussion about her death, but I personally am of the opinion that it would be a perfect waste of time. You don’t like it, while I’m able to rationalize it. Both opinions are fair. What I want to specify, though, is that there are plenty of Padmé fans who don’t like her death, and even say that it openly contradicts the essence of her character. Just like there are a ton of Mara Jade fans who don’t like the way they killed her off in Legacy of the Force, there are also a lot of Padmé fans who don’t like the way she died. So, liking a certain character doesn’t mean that you have to like the way that character died, because a character is way more than his/her death.