Spartacus01

G&G-Fan said:

Therefore basing your ideas on George’s vision is impossible as well, because (apart from certain very core elements) he never had a solid and stable vision in the first place. So, the better thing you can do to enjoy Star Wars without going crazy is ignoring George’s opinions (unless some of them make sense to you) and judging everything based on a purely Death of the Author point of view.

I don’t enjoy things in Star Wars based on whether it was Lucas’ vision or not. I just like the interpretation that Anakin’s fall was not the Jedi’s fault because I think it makes Vader a stronger villain.

Obviously I wasn’t talking about you, I was just making a more general speech. As far as I’m concerned, I prefer the idea that Anakin’s fall was kind of everyone’s fault. Not just the Jedi’s fault, or Anakin’s fault, or Palpatine’s fault, but a mixture of them all. I like to think that it was everyone’s fault and that it was, in a way, something destined to happen anyway, no matter if it was Anakin or another Jedi. It was destined to happen anyway, because it was necessary to destroy the Old Republic to later fixing things in the New Republic and improving the Jedi under Luke’s teachings, as shown in the EU. But I also respect your opinion on the subject, of course.

The Prequels are so bad at conveying what Lucas was really trying to convey that people keep making head canons and being so off the mark they’re basically turning them into entirely different movies.

And that’s why the Prequels are actually good. They’re so bad at conveying what Lucas was really trying to convey that they turn out being good, because what Lucas was really trying to convey is… bad.

Mocata said:

Servii said:

I should clarify, there’s nothing inherently wrong with a creative changing their mind about something. All stories evolve in the telling of them, and writers are dynamic people who’s vision of their own work is prone to shifting over time.

For example, when JRR Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, it was just a straightforward children’s fantasy adventure story, in his mind. It wasn’t meant to be the prelude to the epic fantasy of LOTR. The Ring was just a magic ring Bilbo found, not the Ring of the Dark Lord himself, who also happened to be the Necromancer of Mirkwood. Tolkien even went back and rewrote the ending to the Gollum chapter of The Hobbit, to make the Ring more consistent with its portrayal in LOTR. And even when Tolkien first started writing LOTR, it started out as merely a sequel to The Hobbit, before ballooning into something bigger and grander.

In a similar way, Star Wars started out as just “the adventures of Luke Skywalker” before ballooning into a drama about the Skywalker family.

The point is, it’s ok that George’s story ideas morphed over time. The problem is that George tends to forget or deny that the change ever occurred. He says “It was always meant to be this way,” when it clearly wasn’t. That’s what people take issue with. If he were more upfront about having changed his mind about things, then people wouldn’t be misled into thinking otherwise.

George’s ideas morphed over time. But unlike Tolkien who loved the work, his languages, and spent time answering letters from fans… George seems to actively hate the fans who made the OOT a success, and doesn’t really like directing movies. The overall denial vibe is also very weird, but I think if the changes were any good people would complain a lot less. Instead it’s like he’s always working on a once classic car and all the tinkering is … well…

I agree. To be honest, I personally think George doesn’t understand what makes the fans like Star Wars. That’s why I basically ignore everything George says and why I base my Star Wars opinions on a Death of the Author point of view, rather than a Word of God point of view. In fact, it could even said that I like Star Wars despite of Lucas’ opinions, rather than because of them. For example, I absolutely hate Lucas’ ideas about attachment and about how the Force works, I find them to be very simplistic and boring. What keeps me from saying: “Well, perhaps Star Wars is not for me as a whole” are the alternative interpretation of these subjects given by the EU authors and characters, like Vergere’s philosophy about the Force and Luke’s ideas about attachment in the Jedi Academy Trilogy and The New Jedi Order. Besides, it’s absolutely impossible to find two quotes from George that don’t contradict each other, because the man changed his mind all the time. Therefore basing your ideas on George’s vision is impossible as well, because (apart from certain very core elements) he never had a solid and stable vision in the first place. So, the better thing you can do to enjoy Star Wars without going crazy is ignoring George’s opinions (unless some of them make sense to you) and judging everything based on a purely Death of the Author point of view.

Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones (2002)
Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (2005)
Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade (1989)
Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (1986)
Star Trek VIII: First Contact (1996)
Roswell: The UFO Cover-Up (1994)
Roswell: The Aliens Attack (1999)
The Blues Brothers (1980)
Independence Day (1996)
Back to the Future (1985)
Couples Retreat (2009)
Men in Black (1997)
Men in Black II (2002)
Nuremberg (2000)
Wild Hogs (2007)
Neighbors (2014)
Downfall (2004)
Taken (2008)
Paul (2011)

Stargate SG-1, without a doubt.

Despite not liking how they handled Sha’re’s death, I still enjoyed the show up until Season 6. However, things went downhill once Daniel Jackson became an Ascended being. The reveal that the Ancients and the Ascended were the same thing, the introduction of the Ori, and the death of certain characters are all changes I would have avoided if I had been in charge.

Here’s how I would rewrite the show:

1. The 1994 movie and almost everything from the first six seasons of the series remain intact.
2. The Ancients and the Ascended are two completely different things. Like in DuracelEnergizer’s Divergent Universe, the Ancients are revealed to be reptilian humanoids. Millions of years earlier, they built a great empire spanning the Milky Way, Andromeda, and the Triangulum Galaxy. Eventually, their civilization collapsed, leading to their extinction. As for the Ascended, they’re not some prehistoric species of superhumans, but individuals of various species who achieved enlightenment.
3. Daniel Jackson never becomes an Ascended being and remains alive until the end. Therefore, there’s no Jonas Quinn. (I actually liked Jonas, but let’s be honest—he only existed to replace Daniel, so we can do without him.)
4. General Hammond leaves Stargate Command as he did in the actual show, and Jack O’Neill takes over. However, unlike in the original, O’Neill remains in charge until the end, so General Landry doesn’t exist. Cameron Mitchell still exists and takes O’Neill’s place on the SG-1 team.
5. Anubis’s backstory remains mostly unchanged, but it’s adapted to fit the new distinctions between Ancients and Ascended. Most of his arc plays out the same, but he’s ultimately defeated over Antarctica by a superweapon created by the Ancients during their reign, recovered by Stargate Command itself.
6. The Replicator storyline remains unchanged. After Anubis’s defeat, Stargate Command eventually defeats the Replicators.
7. Vala Mal Doran is introduced earlier, right after the Replicator war. Her personality remains exactly the same, and she eventually becomes a full member of SG-1, just like in the original series.
8. As in the original, the Replicator invasion leaves the Goa’uld Empire weakened, and the Jaffa finally gain independence. Ba’al, however, becomes a sort of Thrawn-like figure, attempting to rebuild the Empire. Eventually, SG-1 and Stargate Command defeat him and his forces.
9. The series ends with the Asgard gifting humanity all their technology, the complete disclosure of the Stargate Program, and humanity’s rise as a true interstellar power.

My (unpopular) ranking:

1. Last Crusade
2. Raiders of the Lost Ark
3. Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
4. Temple of Doom

I know it’s a very unpopular take on the Indiana Jones movies, but I genuinely find Temple of Doom to be the most boring movie of the four. Last Crusade and Raiders of the Lost Ark are my favorites, and kingdom of the Crystal Skull is fun.

The Cosby Show is my favorite. I grew up with it, despite being born in 2001.

Star Trek TNG is my second favourite 80s show, though not my favorite Star Trek.

I just can’t watch almost any movie or TV show that was made after 2014, with only some, few exceptions. In my opinion, 2014 is when almost all movies and shows started sucking.

I love the comedy from the late 90s and early 2000s. The vulgarity and sexual jokes were almost always balanced, and never went too far as to become gross, unlike today. Furthermore, in the majority of cases, even when there was vulgarity in a movie, in the end the underlying message was always good and never too nihilistic, unlike today.

Anyone who dared speak ill of my supreme goddess Padmé will be punished for his insolence.

Anecdotally I know someone who just recently saw TCW and watching it made her like the PT less so than before. She’s not a hardcore fan, I introduced her to SW with the original 3 years ago and she slowly started liking the franchise more and more, but she’s definitely not a hardcore fan. She said the show feels like it takes place in a different universe from the movies, that Anakin is an entirely different character and that even if more likeable in the show, he seems even less torn or prone to falling to the dark side than his movie self. She said that Siege of Mandalore Anakin just doesn’t flow well into ROTS Anakin, and I find it hard to disagree with her.

That’s literally me!

I hate how people say because the new ones are so horrible, it makes the prequels good now. No… bad movies are still bad movies. If you genuinely like them(more power to you) then fine, I don’t agree but fine(who I am to tell you what to like), but the logic of bad sequels=good prequels just don’t make sense to me.

I don’t think that the Prequels are bad movies, I genuinely like them. But I totally agree with you on this. Actually - and I say it as a Prequel fan myself - I hate when people say that the Prequels are good exclusively because the Sequels are bad. It shows that you don’t really appreciate the movies, it just means that you are “forgiving” them because you think there are other movies that suck harder than them. Saying that the Prequels are good because the Sequels are bad is like saying: “Oh yeah, they suck, but they suck less than the Sequels.”

The Republic’s theme from Knights of the Old Republic was really the anthem of the Republic, both during the Old Republic era (before the New Sith Wars) and during the Clone Wars.

The despecialized version of Return of the Jedi fits better with the rest of the old EU than any of the subsequent Special Editions. I personally don’t like the idea of a victory celebration all across the Galaxy. As we know through the EU, the Battle of Endor didn’t mean the total defeat of the Empire in the entire Galaxy, but simply the turning point in the fight against the Empire. In fact, after Endor the Empire still had control of many of the most important planets, including Coruscant and Naboo. Thus, seeing a victory celebration on those two planets makes no sense, because they were still in Imperial hands and the Rebellion had not yet totally won the war. So, I think it would be better to circumscribe the celebration on Endor without showing any other celebration in the Galaxy. Therefore, Yub Nub is a necessary evil that I’m willing to accept for a matter of consistency with the rest of the EU.

Spartacus01 said:

• The Tales of the Jedi comics happen. After the end of the comics, there are several millennia of peace and prosperity in the Republic, until 2000 BBY.
• In 2000 BBY the Mandalorian Wars take place. The reasons of why the Mandalorian Wars happen are the same reasons of why they happened in the original Knights of the Old Republic lore, before The Old Republic MMO retconned everything. The major events of the Mandalorian Wars are the same that are described in the Knights of the Old Republic comics. However, Cassus Fett is replaced with a new character, as my Old Republic head-canon (just like my Prequel rewrite) respects Boba Fett’s pre-Prequel backstory, and so the Fett family doesn’t exist as such.
• After the end of the Mandalorian Wars, Revan and Malak fall to the Dark Side, revive the Sith cult and unleash the Jedi Civil War. The following events are similar to those described in the first Knights of the Old Republic game. However, the Jedi are more similar to the Jedi from the Tales of the Jedi comics, and look nothing like the Jedi from Lucas’ Prequels. Apart from this, Revan and Malak’s story is similar to what’s depicted in the first KOTOR. So, we still have Bastila and the other characters, Malak is still defeated, Revan is still redeemed, etc.
• After Revan’s redemption, the Republic continues to fight against the remnants of the New Sith Empire founded by Revan. The war goes on until 1000 BBY, when the Sith are definitively defeated in the Battle of Russan. However, a Sith survived the battle, and this Sith is Bane. So, after the defeat of the old Sith, Bane created the Rule of Two, established the use of the Darth title (which didn’t exist before him) and also established the red lightsaber rule for the Sith.

Since I have completely abandoned my plans to rewrite the Prequel Trilogy and the Old Republic, this head-canon must be changed.

I currently accept the Old Republic Era the way it’s portrayed in the already established EU timeline. However, I keep the changes regarding the Darth title and red lightsabers. So, every Sith prior to Darth Bane never used the Darth title, and there wasn’t the rule to use a red lightsaber. Both these things were created by Darth Bane itself. That is, everything happened in the same way as in the already established EU timeline, but the historical archives of the Galactic Alliance contain some small inaccuracies. Therefore, what’s depicted in KOTOR/SWTOR is extremely accurate and reflects what really happened, except for the Sith aesthetics. Due to this small inaccuracies, the galactic historians use the Darth title to describe the pre-Banite Sith an depict them as using red lightsabers, when they actually looked more like the Sith from the Tales of the Jedi comics. This explains why in the KOTOR games, in SWTOR and in their tie-in material we see the Sith looking like the Sith from the PT, when they actually didn’t look like that. In the real universe the Sith look from the Prequels was born with Bane and died with Sidious, after which there were no more Sith (as my head-canon universe ends with the NJO series anyway).

I can’t open the links, it tells me I have to log in. But I’m curious to watch this. Is there another link I can use?

Kyp_Astaar said:

Spartacus01 said:

No, you’re not the only one. I totally agree with you. It was stupid. In the Clone Wars Multimedia Project there wasn’t any chip, and it was done Better.

Unfortunately by living in Italy we had limited access to more niche SW literature, by the time TCW’s movie/series arrived they started catching up, but before it was a mess, i bought some republic commando and yuuzhan vong saga novels out of desperation one summer in 2006 when i went to the UK for vacation.
How did they put it in the multimedia project?

I’m Italian too and I understand you perfectly, in our country It’s very difficult to find Star Wars books, because publishers are lazy and never translate anything. Anyway, in the Multimedia Project the Clones were genetically engineered to obey every order without question, just as it’s established in Attack of the Clones, therefore 99.9% of regular Clones obeyed Order 66. However, Clones of higher rank such as Commandos and ARC troopers were more independent than regular Clones, and had the ability to disobey orders. It was necessary to make them more independent than regular Clones, because the kind of missions they were designed to participate in required more independence and free thinking. In fact, most of these Clones obeyed Order 66, but there were also many cases of desertion.

No, you’re not the only one. I totally agree with you. It was stupid. In the Clone Wars Multimedia Project there wasn’t any chip, and it was done Better.

if it’s 1993 or whatever and you’re trying to write the Prequels from scratch, what would you focus on? Suppose your goal is to generate the maximum amount of drama and audience emotional investment possible. What is the most effective way to achieve that?

If I were in 1993 and I had to rewrite the Prequels from scratch, then I’d keep the actual story, but I wouldn’t develop it in a movie trilogy. Rather, I would just make the Prequels to be part of the EU, because the Prequels have an incredible amount of story to tell, and three simple movies are not enough to tell it. So, I would basically create a whole multimedia project similar to the already existing Clone Wars Multimedia Project, but starting from the early PT era when Obi-Wan was still a Padawan. I would tell Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon’s adventures, until we get to the events of The Phantom Menace and the discovery of Anakin, then going forward and forward until the Clone Wars start. Then I would explore the Clone Wars in detail, like in the CWMMP, and then I would end everything with the events of Revenge of the Sith and Order 66. The story would remain the same, but it would just be more developed and explored better, since it would be developed in comics, books and video games instead of movies.

Being italian and having watched the PT for many years in italian only, i can safely say he comes out a bit better than the original, it’s by no extent of the imagination a perfect dubbing, mostly because the voice actor still needs to emulate at least sometimes his tone, unfortunately we traded a better performance for Anakin for the clearly superior acting that Ewan McGregor gave for Obi-Wan in original language, not to mention McDiarmid’s priceless Palpatine acting.

I’m Italian too, and I love Francesco Pezzulli’s performance better, for sure. I love Hayden’s too, though. I never had any great problem with Hayden’s performance.

Sometimes it seems to me that the different categories of Star Wars fans find themselves arguing about non-existing problems. I mean, the fandom and the Saga are big enough to accommodate everyone’s opinion. But despite this, we find ourselves having endless arguments among the fans when it’s absolutely not necessary, as there are simple solutions that can satisfy everyone.

For example: if you don’t like the Sequels, then there is the EU; if you don’t like either of them, then there are a lot of fanfictions that can replace both. If you don’t like the Prequels, then there are a lot of fanfictions and rewrites out there, or maybe you can create something on your own; if you like the ideas but not the execution, then there are the novelizations. If you don’t like TCW, then there is the Multimedia Project; if you don’t like either of them, then there are a lot of fanfictions that can replace both. If you like the EU but not the current Canon, then just ignore the current Canon, just pretend it doesn’t exist; if you don’t like either of them, then again, there are a lot of fanfictions that can replace both.

There’s a ton of simple solutions that can satisfy everyone, and make everyone happy. But despite that, it seems that people don’t care, it almost seems that people like to attack each other for no reason. I don’t understand that…

I’ll probably still make fan-edits of the Prequels tho, just so that when I do watch them they’ll be more enjoyable experiences. And for what it’s worth, I still enjoy ROTS a lot.

I want to create fan edits of the Prequels as well. I already have my Attack of the Clones edit completed if you’re interested.

G&G-Fan said:

Will never be a fan of pining the blame of Anakin’s turn on the Jedi. Darth Vader should be a villain with agency responsible for his own actions. Makes him a more powerful and badass villain.

This may be driven by the fact that I’m a Vader fanboy, but it’s just my opinion.

And I’m a Anakin fanboy, so I defend him a bit.
I don’t blame the Jedi entirely, of course. I blame Anakin, Palpatine and the Jedi equally. All of them were 1/3 of the problem. But we already had a lot of discussions about it when I still had my old account, so it’s better not to start again.

I’m having a dirty Star Wars RPG with one of my (female) friends, and I’m writing this reply.

The cult-like behavior comes from their sheer commitment to the greater good. The Order is socially engineered so all of its members always prioritize the greater good. They train Jedi from birth so they never meet their family and prioritize them over the greater good of the galaxy. They don’t allow Jedi to fall in love or even have friends because the galaxy’s history books are full of Jedi who turned to the dark side for their friends. It’s dehumanizing, but the Jedi justify it because the Force gives you an immense amount of power, and if you can’t give up your own humanity for the greater good, you don’t deserve that power. Anakin, the one who wasn’t brainwashed from birth, who will fall in love and have a child, is going to be the one who ultimately destroys the Jedi Order and hands the galaxy over to Palpatine.

The Jedi are still flawed though, and if I were to actually write this I’d like to frame it to make the argument that the greater good itself is not for the greater good. The Jedi and the Republic tolerate slavery because the effort to end it would cost many times more lives than it would liberate, and (temporarily) tolerating some evils is for the greater good. But you can’t exactly tell a slave that their slavery is a good thing, and if it turned out that the Chosen One is a former slave, you’re going to make a natural enemy of him by continuing to tolerate slavery, even if he recognizes ending slavery would let out more evils than it would abolish.

That’s the way I interpret the actual Prequels as well, even if it’s not what George Lucas thinks, and blah blah blah.

There’s a lot of ways you can retool the plot to be better structured.

Maybe you should rewrite the Prequels instead of doing fanedits, then. Have you ever thought that?

If you prefer the Prequels just as they are, that’s excellent for you. I’m glad you find them fulfilling where I don’t. These are just my ideas and my opinions.

That wasn’t the point of my replies. The point of my replies is: for the story they have to tell, the Prequels are intrinsically not good for a movie format, because there are a lot of things to explore, and there’s not enough screan-time to do it. So, it would have been better if they had been part of the EU. However, even with their limited amount of screan-time, I’m still capable of getting everything necessary to appreciate them.

So, the summary of your criticism is this: in the first two Prequel films there is not much story to tell, so you lose a lot of time behind secondary things. Am i right? If so, then great, it’s a very acceptable critique. But my reply is this: not every movie in a Saga has to be fundamental to understand the Saga itself. In my opinion, sometimes it’s nice to have movies where the plot is a little calmer, without necessarily having action and important things happening all the time.

But a 1 minute scene in which they recount old adventures didn’t do enough to make people feel they’re such good friends.

It was enough for me. That scene was really enough to make me feel that they are good friends. Especially because being friends doesn’t necessarily mean not arguing or having a good chemistry all the time.

just the beginning of the clone war and Anakin and Padme falling in love

Do you realize that without the assassination attempts there’s no investigative plot, that without the investigative plot there’s no Clone Army, and that without the Clone Army there’s no Clone Wars, right? How do you think they should have used the screan time instead? The movie shows exactly what it’s supposed to show: the beginning of the Clone Wars, and Anakin and Padmé falling in love. The investigative plot leads to the beginning of the Clone Wars and the romance leads to…the romance.

a part of The Phantom Menace

It is not “a part”, it is the whole movie! Again, without the Trade Federation blockade there is no Naboo crisis, and without the Naboo crisis there is no Palpatine’s election. How do you think they should have used the screen time instead? The movie shows what it’s supposed to show.

Obi-Wan is an overrated character