Shopping Maul

Booman said:

I remember noticing one instance in the prequels where they reversed a shot of Anakin for about a second or two so they could extend the scene. It’s during the part in AOTC where he’s describing his Tusken Raider killing spree to Padme. There’s probably countless examples of editing artifacts like these being left in scenes due to the editing together of separate takes into the same shot.

Honestly I think Lucas went a bit overboard with his merging of takes. It kinda takes something away from the actors’ performances in my opinion. I guess he was just really eager to take full advantage of the new tech, that’s just my thoughts though.

Not to mention the fact that, for the entirety of AOTC and ROTS, Lucas replaced Sebastian Shaw with Hayden Christensen…

While the execution was lacking in many ways, at least Anakin was actually seduced by something ie Palpatine’s claim that a) he could save Padme and b) that the Jedi were uppity jerks who had sold Anakin short all these years. Luke’s so-called seduction to the Dark Side was merely being goaded into anger. Apparently, after losing his temper because Palpatine was killing all his friends, Luke would supposedly join the bad guys - even as the Rebels were being blown to smithereens.

With Anakin we at least see that he goes too far (in killing Windu) and feels he has to choose sides. I’m not saying the youngling fiasco makes sense, but at there is a sense of him actually having been manipulated. In Luke’s case, apparently one tantrum (however justified) will turn you into the devil.

Return of the Jedi ruined things waaaaay before the prequels showed up…

SWOTFAN25 said:

Shopping Maul said:

In this instance there’s no story. Abrams planted his ‘mystery boxes’ for the sheer heck of it and then left Rian to do whatever the hell he wanted (which he clearly did). By his own admission JJ went into episode 9 thinking “well, I’d better come up with a story…”

I’m not saying it won’t work - I’m really hoping it will - but the fact that these people didn’t think to at least write some kind of overall plot absolutely baffles me…

If you’d done your homework you would know that there has been a story/overarching plot that has been planned. However they have given each film the chance to change things for the sake of creative freedom. This is common knowledge idk where you get your facts. Look up interviews with Adam Driver and “Antichrist” Kennedy.

I have seen recent articles that make this claim - particularly in reference to Kylo Ren. This gives me hope - the idea that at least one aspect of this trilogy has had some thought behind it is encouraging. To me it feels more like a ‘Lucas claim’ - George would say he had things ‘planned’ when what he really meant was that certain ideas may have had a vague basis in earlier drafts. TLJ was famously done on a clean slate, and it showed. The fact that Abrams is supposedly returning to some of his earlier notions feels less like a continuation of a solid vision and more like an attempt to do damage control. I honestly hope I’m wrong.

act on instinct said:

DrDre said:

I’m cautiously optimistic about episode IX. I’m not expecting it to be the second coming, but an entertaining film nonetheless, and I guess after 40 years of history, that’s not a bad way to end the Skywalker saga.

Makes me think Return of the Jedi, or Revenge of the Sith, now Rise of Skywalker going through the ringer. I accept that the last bite at the apple in each instance gives equal rise to high criticism as well as a sense of hey let’s all get along and have a good “last” ride. I don’t think either reaction is wrong, even feeling both at the same time. After reading about the differences between what Lucas, Kasdan and Gary Kurtz wanted for RotJ, a fan can still appreciate the fun of their childhood favorite while dreaming of what might have been.

The real difference is that those other examples (ROTJ and ROTS) were actually completing a story. While the OT was obviously written on the fly, it still had questions to be answered (Han’s fate, the truth of Luke’s parentage, who was the ‘other’ etc etc), and ROTS had to document the fall of the Republic and the details of Anakin’s transformation into Darth Vader.

In this instance there’s no story. Abrams planted his ‘mystery boxes’ for the sheer heck of it and then left Rian to do whatever the hell he wanted (which he clearly did). By his own admission JJ went into episode 9 thinking “well, I’d better come up with a story…”

I’m not saying it won’t work - I’m really hoping it will - but the fact that these people didn’t think to at least write some kind of overall plot absolutely baffles me…

I thought this was interesting, so thanks Val. If it came up in another thread, I didn’t see it and appreciate your making a new thread for it.

Frankly I think the Sarlacc is a Mary Sue…

I’m really gonna sound like a moron here, but I didn’t fully get the Falcon’s interior (in terms of dimensions, what leads where etc etc) until TFA. The fact that the movie makes a point of walking through the set the way it does made me put it together properly after a mere 40 years or so!

AMine said:

Gave Empire Strikes Back another watch, as requested. This time, I watched it on our living room TV and with the occasional taking the dog out for a few moments even then, I now better understand the story and the reason it was so loved and praised by many. I do still believe Star Wars '77 is my favorite, but this does fall close behind! Thank you for your help! If anything else wants to be discussed here, then let me know!

Well, I’m keen to get your take on Return of the Jedi!

Wow, your post is so interesting because TESB is my favourite movie of all time (alongside Conan '82) so it’s really hard for me to step outside of my own inner echo-chamber here.

The only perspective I can offer is the one of having been there at the time. If you can picture a moment where there was only Star Wars itself - there was the awesome spectacle of this incredible movie with its robots and lightsabers and tie fighters and all that stuff - but there was no ‘Vader as father’, no Yoda, no Han and Leia romance, no Hoth or Asteroid field or Cloud City or Lando or Boba Fett or the Millennium Falcon doing 360 spins between Star Destroyers…

I mean Star Wars II could have just been Star Wars II - a new adventure in the same style as the first - but TESB changed everything. It had an edge and depth to it that we simply weren’t expecting. The rebels were decimated, Han got the girl (not Luke!), the bad guy was possibly the hero’s father, the Force was now this heavy space-Buddhism and Luke was really struggling with it and possibly risking his soul, Obi Wan had potentially lied to him, Han’s fate was uncertain, Luke had a potential replacement in the wings if he blew it…I mean it took these characters that we’d fallen in love with in '77 and put them through hell! It wasn’t joyless - there was humour and great lines and fussy robots - but it was heavy and gave the whole thing weight where it could’ve just been ‘the further adventures of…’.

There were the visuals and set pieces too - Hoth with its armoured Walkers, Dagobah with its weird vision-cave, Vader’s huge ship, Cloud City etc etc. It was just such an exciting and crazy next step for what had started out as basically a fun adventure.

I was 8 when I saw Star Wars and 11 when I saw TESB. I didn’t think about why I loved TESB, I just loved it. Looking at my respective ages there, it’s easy to see why I responded the way I did, just as it’s easy (now) to see why ROTJ didn’t quite work for me at age 14. That’s a big part of it of course, but as time has gone by I’ve really come to appreciate the artistry of TESB. Some movies from childhood don’t date so well, even if you still like them subjectively. Star Wars and TESB never diminished in my eyes. The older I get the more I appreciate the greatness of these films and really see just why they struck the chords in me that they did.

Of course we like what we like, and it’s absolutely fine to not like/love TESB! I’m curious to get your feelings on ROTJ and the prequels…

The Leia thing was stupid for two reasons - one, she was never meant to be Luke’s sister and Luke was obviously attracted to her in the preceding two films (with deleted scenes clearly showing an attraction from Leia’s side as well - not ‘canon’ but certainly indicative of the writers’ intent).

Secondly she was a prisoner on Bespin while Yoda made the “there is another” declaration in the first place, so she could not possibly have been the other hope - sister or no. At best you’d have to argue that Yoda, who previously couldn’t ‘see her fate’, suddenly sensed through the Force (as Luke was taking off) that Leia would survive the Bespin fiasco but somehow he couldn’t see that Luke would make it as well. Or something…

Personally I think Boba Fett should’ve been the ‘other hope’…

screams in the void said:

^ I would re think taking Howard Chaykin copies of Star Wars to sign , I have seen recent interviews with him and he has not been very happy for being only known in fan circles for that over his original works . He has also said that it was not his best work by a long shot and had he known how big the movie was going to be, he would have done a better job .He even went so far as too say he was embarrassed by it .He was pretty pissed and salty about it on a video interview on youtube …around the 44 minute mark…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-cvoqg9wzg

I see his point to a degree, but I think he’s missing something in his analysis. Some artists are actually more enjoyable (subjectively speaking) when they’re under the whip. For example I love John Buscema’s stuff even though it has become evident that a lot of the material was just being churned out to make rent. It doesn’t matter because even half-hearted Buscema is great Buscema. Similarly I actually prefer Frank Miller’s standard Daredevil stuff over his more personal and stylised material. I just happen to love those comics, and the fact that Frank was working mostly to the formula - but in his own special way - makes for great Daredevil.

So with Chaykin I think Star Wars has a great feel - particularly that first issue (for me) - even if he was just banging the pages out nonchalantly. It’s wrong of him imply the folks who enjoy it are idiots. I’m sure he would’ve personally appreciated music or art or some other media that just so happened to have been loathed by its creator. Hell, Lucas doesn’t even like the first film, but I’m darned if I’m gonna let that spoil how I feel about it!

canofhumdingers said:

Back in February I showed my kids (boys aged 3 & 5) Star Wars via 4K77 prior to taking them to Disney World. Of course they absolutely loved it and thoroughly enjoyed all the Star Wars stuff in the park (we decided to wait until they’re a bit older to commit to doing the whole Galaxy’s Edge attraction).

Well, this week I had the extreme pleasure of showing them the entire Original Trilogy. They had been asking to watch Star Wars again and my wife and I decided that if they could handle it, they could handle the other two as well. So we watched 4K77, ESB Despecialized 2.0, and 4K83 over the last week. It was such a pleasure re-living these films for the first time through my kids eyes. Their excitement during the action was palpable. Their awe and fascination were clearly visible on their faces. I often felt almost like I myself was seeing the movies for the first time. My 3 year old exclaimed “Whoa!” at every show stopping explosion or action stunt. My five year old’s nose and brow immediately crinkled into a frown of extreme disbelief at the father revelation (he was absolutely adamant that Vader was lying. It was so cute!).

To everyone who worked on or contributed to these projects in any way at all, I wish to express my deepest and most heartfelt thanks. This has been an experience I’ve been looking forward to for many years. It did not disappoint!

Beautiful post! How did they go with the more heavy visuals ie burnt corpses on Tatooine, severed limbs etc etc? Are you going to follow up with the PT/ST?

canofhumdingers said:

Shopping Maul said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Shopping Maul said:

I remember when ANH was perceived as a SPFX milestone with breakneck pacing. Of course these days, especially to kids, it seems cheap and slow paced.

Really? It didn’t bother me or any of my friends when we were kids during the release of the PT movies. There were plenty of modern films to compete with, yet as far as we were concerned the OT was as good as it gets. (Ditto on the orig. Indy movies.)

I’m not saying everyone was/is bothered by it, but the perception obviously changed as the films and the technology evolved. In its day Star Wars felt the way something like Infinity War might feel today - just huge and fast and mind blowing. Now of course it seems so much simpler.

My two boys (ages 3 and 5) thought Star Wars was pretty huge and fast and mind blowing when I showed them 4K77 in February. Certainly quite far from simple.

When I was 5, I took Adam West completely seriously as Batman! No, I was referring to people in general who are now experiencing the likes of Guardians of the Galaxy. In its day Star Wars felt somewhat like GOTG does now, but obviously back to back they are very different thanks to the 40 year gap between them. All I was saying is that, in comparing say TESB to TLJ, we should factor in the different eras in which they were made. Obviously things that worked for TESB in 1980 might not work for a movie made in 2017.

ZkinandBonez said:

Shopping Maul said:

I remember when ANH was perceived as a SPFX milestone with breakneck pacing. Of course these days, especially to kids, it seems cheap and slow paced.

Really? It didn’t bother me or any of my friends when we were kids during the release of the PT movies. There were plenty of modern films to compete with, yet as far as we were concerned the OT was as good as it gets. (Ditto on the orig. Indy movies.)

I’m not saying everyone was/is bothered by it, but the perception obviously changed as the films and the technology evolved. In its day Star Wars felt the way something like Infinity War might feel today - just huge and fast and mind blowing. Now of course it seems so much simpler.

TESB is a product of its time, so I think doing a nitpicks tit-for-tat with the current films is kind of silly. I remember when ANH was perceived as a SPFX milestone with breakneck pacing. Of course these days, especially to kids, it seems cheap and slow paced. But you wouldn’t deliberately make a modern sequel with cheap effects and a slow plot and say “hey, it was good enough for the original Star Wars”!

I love the inaccurate cover blurbs/scenarios on those adaptation issues - ‘Luke Skywalker - will he save the galaxy or destroy it?’! What? The second one has Luke and Ben in an all-out barroom brawl, the fourth has the bizarre “here I stand though I may die!” from Luke, the fifth has the Death Star laying waste the rebel base from above, and of course Luke duels Vader on the cover of issue six. I’m not being sarcastic - I do love these covers!

I think I said this earlier in the thread but I thought the Marvel SW comics looked positively awful when I first beheld them as a kid. After a few short months of discovering/reading Spider-Man and the like, I suddenly decided that burly-chested Thor-Luke and an equally buff Chewbacca were the greatest! Ah, truly wonderful the mind of a child is…

So yeah, I thought Infantino rocked.

This is meant to be a trilogy right? So it’s impossible not to think of the build-up at this point in the previous trilogies with regard to the characters. That three years between TESB and ROTJ was torture! Was Vader lying? Who was the ‘other’? Would Han make it? How would all this impact Luke, his identity, his training etc etc? Would he turn to the Dark Side? Similarly AOTC left us with the (admittedly built-in) prospect of Anakin’s fall from grace, the upcoming Clone War, the fate of Padme and the Galaxy at large.

What are we anticipating with this series? We all know there was no story. What are the stakes for Rey? Training’s no problem. The Dark Side’s no problem. Her being generally brilliant at everything is no problem. The parents issue is (possible retcon notwithstanding) resolved. Rey is fun to watch at a basic level, and Daisy’s great, but there are no stakes here. The only anticipation we have is built around the trailer - why is there a piece of Death Star in the ocean? Why is Palpatine being alluded to? What the heck is this story going to be about? This is less like a trilogy than it is like one of those Marvel Comics that has concluded one story and ended with the blurb ‘next month, a new artist/writer team and all-new thrills for our heroes! Stay tuned!’…

Jesta’ said:

“Evil” George Lucas creating the movies you love and cherish! “Evil” George Lucas pioneering the technology you used yourselves to restore the original theatrical versions! Fans can restore the past as good as an official company (to some extent, I understand you don’t have access to the original negatives, but you can still get pretty close).

Also. What man in his right mind celebrates the woman who divorced him? She wanted to live a quiet life for a reason, do you really think she wants to be credited as the major reason her ex-husband’s masterpiece was so successful? That seems like rubbing salt into wounds.

If we’re going to suppress art on the basis that its creator suffered relationship issues during its creation, we’re basically going to lose every film, painting, piece of music etc in existence. The Beatles’ ‘White Album’ and Fleetwood Mac’s ‘Rumours’ spring to mind as obvious examples.

Secondly, Lucas didn’t create his awesome technology so that we as fans could reassemble the OT. Lucas is on the record as specifically wanting the original films to be erased from existence.

Thirdly, I can buy pretty much any movie on earth on DVD and/or Blu Ray - from Citizen Kane to the rejected 1978 Dr Strange TV pilot. But I can’t buy the film that changed my life in 1977 - one of the most important and significant movies in the history of film. Fine, that’s Lucas’ prerogative. But to have him appear at the 40th Anniversary celebrations of that 1977 film and sit there banging on about the genius of his ‘mythological motifs’ whilst simultaneously denying the very existence of the actual film is beyond appalling.

RogueLeader said:

How much consideration the writers put into it is certainly up for debate (I definitely feel JJ gave more attention to some elements over others). If you read through the “Art of” books, especially The Force Awakens, you can definitely see Rick Carter, JJ, and the whole team delving back into fundamental questions about the nature of the Star Wars galaxy. How strong is the Force? Who is Luke Skywalker? What is the Force’s relevance? Does it mean anything now? They were really focused on the nature of the Force early on, it seems.

That’s really interesting - perhaps I’m not giving JJ his due? And again the subjectivity factor looms large in these conversations. My ‘issues’ with the whole Skywalker/Force aspect goes back to ROTJ where, as I’ve often harped on about, I feel Luke’s role has been misinterpreted as more crucial to the outcome than widely accepted. Which by association colours how I feel about his being revered as a ‘legend’ in any sequel material.
But yeah, I’m curious to know how JJ and his team arrived at their own conclusions regarding Luke and the Force.

poppasketti said:

Shopping Maul said:

we as fans are left concocting all kinds of ways to make it work. None of us want Star Wars to suck right? So we do the writing for him - ‘gee, maybe the Force is acting this way, maybe it’s acting that way’ etc etc.

That’s fair that the writing doesn’t work for you, but I would also say that I’m not trying to justify what I like about the ST. I’m simply telling you. In other words, I’m not doing any gymnastics because I want it to be good, I’m just giving my honest reaction to the new movies, which I quite liked except some of the cheesier elements of TLJ.

No probs, and by the way I didn’t mean to imply that you (or anyone) is ‘kidding themselves’ when it comes to these films. This stuff is largely subjective anyway. I could write a thesis on why I think Milius’ Conan the Barbarian is a work of unfettered genius, while another observer might justifiably write it off as puerile adolescent fantasy fronted by bodybuilders in Spinal Tap wigs! Either way I just enjoy these conversations!

poppasketti said:

LordZerome1080 said:

Can either of you please provide a source for these claims?

This is from the deleted scenes.

Interesting discussion, and I think both sides have made good points!

I think for me it comes down to this.

Shopping Maul said:
Training is crucial in the OT. Not in the ST.

I think this statement is basically true, but I also don’t think that’s a bad thing. As RL outlined, there is something special about the way the force is behaving, and for me, I’m not interested in another Jedi training arc.

In fact, turning that concept on it’s head is precisely the direction that makes the ST interesting for me. And that much or most of Rey’s training comes from Kylo-Ren is especially interesting. Whether they pay it off in a meaningful way is yet to be see, but I like that their toying with the concepts of good and evil.

The mind-linking in Last Jedi was some of the most creative and interesting material to emerge from Star Wars in a long time.

I absolutely agree with you here, at least in theory. I think the ideas are great, and another Jedi training arc would’ve been redundant as you say. I just think the writing lets it down. In my estimation, everyone on this thread is giving the whole thing infinitely more writing/lore consideration than JJ Abrams ever did. It feels to me like JJ and co. simply threw ‘cool stuff’ onto the page/screen and we as fans are left concocting all kinds of ways to make it work. None of us want Star Wars to suck right? So we do the writing for him - ‘gee, maybe the Force is acting this way, maybe it’s acting that way’ etc etc.

Of course JJ is following Lucas’ post-TESB example in this regard, and that’s why we as fans consistently have to come up with genius in-universe ways to make George’s clumsy inconsistencies make sense. I just think it’s a shame. The movies are fun and cool and very pretty. That’s nice but, a la ANH and TESB, they could’ve been brilliant.

SilverWook said:

Between SW and ESB, I only recall Luke encountering Obi Wan in a dream state as he lay in a deep coma/state of shock caused by inadvertently touching Vader’s mind in his first attempt at meditating.

I recall Luke also receiving advice from a spectral Obi Wan before his battle with Baron Tagge. But as I pointed out to Screams, I’m not comparing the lessons or powers themselves to the official canon - I’m merely pointing out that it was a reasonably safe assumption (especially given how tied Marvels’s hands were legally) that Luke continued to train between movies.

screams in the void said:

Shopping Maul said:

yotsuya said:

Well, from his reaction to seeing Ben, it seems pretty clear Ben had not appeared to him before so Ben would not have been teaching him from beyond the grave. Otherwise there would be no need for Yoda.

It would not make sense for Luke to simply give up on the Force for the three years between ANH and TESB. You wouldn’t go “oh well, my mentor’s dead so I’m out”. The implication is that he kept training - to whatever extent. “But I’ve learned so much” is an indication of that.

The Marvel series had Luke training with remotes, meditating, using the Force in battle, and communing with ghost-Obi Wan. This obviously doesn’t count as ‘canon’, but it does indicate the logic of assuming Luke would carry on as best he could. Marvel were on a tight leash with regard to how much they could develop these characters, and they did not know the details of TESB until very close to the movie. There was a fan letter in one issue circa mid-1980 that said something like “you need to pick up the pace because it looks like Luke will be levitating small objects in the next movie - you guys still have him practising with his Lightsaber”. Again, this is a fan assuming the logic of Luke self-training as best he could. Yoda never said “download these skills you must, save time you will”. Training is crucial in the OT. Not in the ST.

one thing about that original Marvel series you did not mention is that in issue 23 , Luke was able to reach out telepathically and touch Vader’s mind , eliciting a very loud scream of agony from Vader . Pretty advanced stuff for a fledgling Jedi ! No one taught him that trick , but hey , it’s not “canon” after all…

That’s not the point I was making - I’m not doing a powers ‘tit for tat’ here. I was responding to Yotsuya’s inference that Luke started levitating things out of nowhere in TESB the same way Rey miraculously manifests Jedi skills in the ST. I was pointing out that it was a reasonably universal assumption that Luke continued to explore his powers between the movies. The reason I brought up Marvel was to show that, even under Marvel’s extremely ‘conservative by legal necessity’ stewardship, Luke was continuing to train as best he could.

Still, I have to say that Luke’s arc during the ‘Wheel’ saga, and how he arrived at the notion of sending his rage down the psychic well that Vader had opened up, was infinitely more fleshed out and plausible than Rey’s ‘instant download - no training required’ routine.

yotsuya said:

Well, from his reaction to seeing Ben, it seems pretty clear Ben had not appeared to him before so Ben would not have been teaching him from beyond the grave. Otherwise there would be no need for Yoda.

It would not make sense for Luke to simply give up on the Force for the three years between ANH and TESB. You wouldn’t go “oh well, my mentor’s dead so I’m out”. The implication is that he kept training - to whatever extent. “But I’ve learned so much” is an indication of that.

The Marvel series had Luke training with remotes, meditating, using the Force in battle, and communing with ghost-Obi Wan. This obviously doesn’t count as ‘canon’, but it does indicate the logic of assuming Luke would carry on as best he could. Marvel were on a tight leash with regard to how much they could develop these characters, and they did not know the details of TESB until very close to the movie. There was a fan letter in one issue circa mid-1980 that said something like “you need to pick up the pace because it looks like Luke will be levitating small objects in the next movie - you guys still have him practising with his Lightsaber”. Again, this is a fan assuming the logic of Luke self-training as best he could. Yoda never said “download these skills you must, save time you will”. Training is crucial in the OT. Not in the ST.

timdiggerm said:

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Yeah, I’d be interested to know how many Marvel movie adaptations were done without seeing the finished film. Did they all feature scenes that were ultimately cut? Jack Kirby’s version of 2001: A Space Odyssey being the exception as it was done around 1976.

An interesting one (for me at least) was the Conan '82 adaptation. It’s vastly different to the finished film, but over the years it has become increasingly evident that it was pretty accurate in terms of the original script. That’s what’s so fascinating to me - it’s almost as if two parallel versions of these movies were being created. A lot of the stuff that seemed so inaccurate in the TESB adaptation has shown up in deleted scenes and script drafts.

ROTJ was probably the most ‘film accurate’ adaptation I was aware of back in the day, but for me it arguably has better dialogue than the movie in a number of places. I see it as a kind of ‘what if ROTJ had been directed by someone else’.

This reminds me of the original Back to the Future novelization

I’m not very familiar with Back to the Future, but that was a great read! And yes, it’s so fascinating how these things turned out given the circumstances of their creation ie being made to come out in time for (or even before) the movies. Dark Horse re-did the Star Wars adaptation in the 90s and it was completely accurate to the film (of course) and boring as hell IMO!