Shopping Maul

I honestly believe that JJ and co. really didn’t think about this stuff. This is true, to an extent, of Lucas as well. George would just throw stuff in there and hope we didn’t notice the contradictions. With the new films it seems like the writers are going “hey, such and such sounds cool, let’s do that” without thinking about the lore or how it might look in context. Rey’s big victory at the end of TFA (when she kicked Kylo’s butt) was largely because someone told JJ that she needed a ‘big moment’. Okay, one ‘big moment’ coming up…

My preferred interpretation of the Force is the one presented in Star Wars and Empire - it’s an energy field that can be tapped into with serious discipline and training. That’s it.

Okay, here’s my theory. There’s a big showdown in the guts of the Death Star, all the Force Ghosts are present, everyone’s about to be blown up or something, and then Kylo has a big change of heart and self-sacrifices so that his beloved Rey (and co.) can escape. As he does so Palpasnoke is screaming “no, you are Master of the Knights of Ren!” and Kylo - just a Leia’s theme/Force theme mash-up swells - says “I am a Skywalker, like my mother before me!” before going kaboom.

RogueLeader said:

Also, HelloGreedo posted a video regarding his interpretation of the title, and I think I would like it if some version of this turned to be true as well. These films are fundamentally about family, and I think this trilogy has emphasized how family is more than blood, so I could see ‘Skywalker’ becoming the mantle of that idea.
https://youtu.be/lPCuDbkstuY

“I’m Skywalker and so is my wife…”

(with all due credit to Monty Python…)

bromeo said:

If TROS is truly amazing, could The Last Jedi become sort of Attack of the Clones for binge-watching? I wonder if you can enjoy 4, 5, 3, 6, 7, 9 without losing too much of the story? Probably a futile thought because we have amazing edits already available which make 8 quite enjoyable.

Ah, a Machete Order in the making! If TROS is good, I think that’s probably what will happen. As ‘necessary’ as Luke’s death and Kylo’s mask issues are, I think many fans will overlook this and just do eps 7 and 9 a la carte.

I’m not offended by the potential of a Palpatine return (in whatever form) at all. If anything, it helps me to see ROTJ as ‘a’ victory rather than ‘the’ victory when viewing the ST, because the ‘Empire vs Rebels’ reset is so stark. ROTJ still stands - the Death Star was destroyed, the Empire crippled (if not eliminated), Vader got his redemption, Luke got his knighthood - so for me a downsizing of ROTJ’s overall significance/finality is not so bad. Since TFA I’ve kind of seen the ST as a nod to the ROTJ that could have been - disillusioned Luke wandering off into the sunset, Leia leading the remains of her people, Han sacrificing himself etc etc.

What saddens me is that I felt nothing on my initial viewing of the new teaser. Every other teaser/trailer (except for RO and SOLO) has hooked me - irrespective of the consequent movies. This time I was like “eh, whatever”. My ‘canon brain’ has switched off in terms of viewing the ST as legitimate Star Wars, and that’s because there are no intriguing threads left by TLJ in terms of what’s to come. Still, the resulting conversations here and elsewhere have caused my anticipation to rise somewhat. The apathy rises, and the anticipation to meet it…

Tobar said:

Shopping Maul said:

Does it actually say that about the reactor in RO (genuine question, I’ve only seen the film once)?

“The reactor module, that’s the key…any pressurized explosion to the reactor module will set off a chain reaction that will destroy the entire station.”

Aren’t volatile reactors all the rage throughout the saga? Anakin blows up a Trade Federation ship by accidentally hitting the reactor with big torpedoes. Death Star II is all about hitting the reactor. The Super-Star Destroyer cops it in the ol’ reactor too!

Take it up with Star Wars (1977):
“The shaft leads directly to the reactor system. A precise hit will start a chain reaction which should destroy the station.” - General Dodonna, Star Wars

Okay, so did the DS reactor in ROTJ have the same implanted flaw? What about the reactor on the Trade Federation ship? The saga clearly shows us that hitting the reactors can blow these things up. All three films demonstrate, as you quoted, that a hit to the reactor should do the trick.

So we’re left with two choices here. Galen Erso made the reactor extra explodey and hoped that somehow the rebels would get a crack at it. Or he designed the exhaust port and ‘cleverly’ made it nigh impossible to get a torpedo into.

Or the third choice - it all went down like the original movie said it did and the rebels simply exercised great ingenuity borne of desperation and, thanks to Luke Skywalker, achieved the nigh impossible.

Look, I get it. Many fans didn’t think the initial Death Star takedown was plausible, and RO supposedly answers that age-old question.

Uh…what? “Many fans”? Gonna need to see some examples of that as I’ve never heard that brought up as an issue. Let alone enough to make it an “age-old question.”

Google ‘Rogue One Death Star reactor flaw’ and you’ll see articles and blogs galore about this issue bothering fans over the years. I myself was unaware of this until RO came out and people started going on about this alleged problem. Like i said it never bothered me.

Shopping Maul said:

I’m probably gonna get slapped here, but I despise this film. Talk about Special editions - this film is ‘Han Shot First’ on steroids. Placing the Tantive at the battle itself and having Vader - who had just seen the rebels passing the plans through a doorway - suddenly get his facts wrong (“several transmissions were beamed to this ship…”),

Several transmissions were beamed to the ship that the Tantive was docked inside of:

Yes, not the Tantive itself. The dialogue makes no sense.

The data from the drive that Erso took was uploaded in four simultaneous transmissions.
The dialog from the film confirms this, “Admiral, receiving transmissions from Scarif!”
As for Vader’s dialog, humdinger has already addressed how Vader isn’t shown to know that a Rebel is trying to get the plans onboard the Tantive. At that time all Vader is concerned with is stopping anyone from escaping. Where the plans are is a secondary concern to stopping the Tantive from launching.

Sorry, I’m confused here. So Vader didn’t know the plans were being handed through the door and was only preventing any escapes. So why pursue the Tantive at all? It only makes sense to pursue Leia if he thinks the plans are aboard - and he’s only going to know this by virtue of having seen the plans being handed through the doorway - which means he knows they weren’t transmitted - which means the dialogue in ANH makes no sense…

followed by an interrogation with Leia that doesn’t remotely reflect what Vader has supposedly just witnessed

They both know she’s been caught red handed but that doesn’t mean she has to capitulate and admit to everything or anything. In that situation all she can do is deny, deny, deny and hope that Artoo can escape with the plans. And Vader knows she’s lying and openly calls her out on it, “You are part of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor!”

The whole point in ANH is that Vader’s holding her on suspicion alone - hence “holding her is dangerous, if word gets out etc etc”. Vader says “I have traced the rebel spies to her…”. Why not just say “she was present at the battle of Scariff, resisted arrest, and is now a war criminal”? And why not just say this to Leia, rather than some song and dance about supposed diplomatic missions to Alderaan?

…and all so we can see Vader exhibit a particular badassery that he fails to wield ten minutes later in 1977?!?

As has already been pointed out, Vader was in a rush to stop the Tantive from launching before. By the time he’s caught up with them, they’re trapped with nowhere left to go. He doesn’t need to charge in. Why take the brunt of an attack when you have lackeys to do that for you?

Fair enough, if that works for you (not being sarcastic here).

Rogue One is by no means a perfect film but I would say it does an excellent job of capturing the feel of the OT era and of delivering on its original mandate which was to bring these opening paragraphs to life:

It is a period of civil war.
Rebel spaceships, striking
from a hidden base, have won
their first victory against
the evil Galactic Empire.

During the battle, Rebel
spies managed to steal secret
plans to the Empire’s
ultimate weapon, the DEATH
STAR, an armored space
station with enough power to
destroy an entire planet.

It does capture the look of the OT. I was amazed at the accuracy in depicting the tech and what-not in a way that links to ANH (rather than having TESB-style Star Destroyers circling the Death Star for example), but for me the movie overreaches by meddling with ANH plot points and upstaging what should (IMO) remain as Vader’s first entrance in ep 4.

Star Wars post-1980 is absolutely built on retcons - some work and some don’t. I just wish more care was taken with the writing. For example Lucas could simply have written the timeline so that Owen and Beru were actually the correct age, instead of having fans awkwardly postulate that they were ‘aged rapidly by the twin suns’. Or he could have had Padme survive for a few years (as originally planned) so that Leia could legitimately remember her (as opposed to the clumsy “uh, she was remembering through the Force but baby Luke couldn’t…”). Don’t get me started on “Leia, Leia’s my sister…” or Threepio having had a prior farming apprenticeship with Owen Lars…

Rogue One plays the same game for me. The plans weren’t beamed to the ship but Vader didn’t know that and Leia was at the battle but neither of them are admitting it and the Death star flaw was deliberate but not too deliberate etc etc. Why not just write a cool story about the acquisition of the plans, have them beamed to Leia, and leave ANH alone?

ray_afraid said:

Shopping Maul said:

The Super-Star Destroyer cops it in the ol’ reactor too!

Nah, the Super-Star Destroyer took an A-wing through it’s bridge.

You’re right - my bad! I was confusing my Ackbar quotes…

Does it actually say that about the reactor in RO (genuine question, I’ve only seen the film once)?

Aren’t volatile reactors all the rage throughout the saga? Anakin blows up a Trade Federation ship by accidentally hitting the reactor with big torpedoes. Death Star II is all about hitting the reactor. The Super-Star Destroyer cops it in the ol’ reactor too!

Look, I get it. Many fans didn’t think the initial Death Star takedown was plausible, and RO supposedly answers that age-old question. But I never had a problem with the exhaust port. It was an audacious plan on behalf of the rebels that actually turned out to be a failure (see Red Leader, his targeting computer, and a conga-line of dead guys that didn’t even make it that far). Luke Skywalker was a complete and utter wild card. It makes infinitely less sense to me that a saboteur planted a weakness that required extremely creative analysis (assuming all the construction crews and technicians and overseers never noticed the flaw), was more or less impossible to exploit, and ultimately relied on the Force re-emerging as an option.

MalàStrana said:

The issue is not about being logical or not, the real trick is: this piece of information of the DS being sabotaged by its own engineer is a rationalization of something magical/Force related in ANH, and it was totally unecessary. That’s why I compare that to the midichlorians: going for magic to something… logical, mathematical, biological, rational… it goes 100% against the spirit of the OT and particularly of ANH.

The fact dialogues in ANH have now a weird inconsistency with R1 ret-con is another issue, but not the worst.

(and at least PT inconsistencies are set some 20 years before ANH, not 5 minutes prior to it 😕)

Agreed. Perhaps Han’s line could be retconned to say “great shot kid, but someone clearly set you up for it” followed by Obi Wan’s voiceover saying “remember…the Force is just a factor…among many…”.

“We’ve analysed their attack sir, and there is a danger” is consistent with the unpredictability and audaciousness of the Rebels’ hastily conceived plan. Otherwise the dialogue would/should be “Governor Tarkin, we’ve been betrayed! A design flaw was deliberately planted in the station and we must evacuate immediately!”…

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

Not to state the obvious on a site dedicated to this one truth but, as we’ve been stridently pointing out to Lucas for decades now, Star Wars '77 was fine as it was.

Shopping Maul said:

What’s interesting to me is that RO gets such a great rap on a site dedicated to preserving the unaltered OT.

Shopping Maul said:

I’m just amazed that other fans don’t see this as basically a defacto Special Edition change.

Just a couple of points for clarity…

For someone who has been on this site for over 5 years… you haven’t noticed that your fellow members on here may also like or enjoy Star Wars content other than the Original Trilogy too? That there are many members with positive views and respect or appreciation for many of the differing Star Wars releases?

And that having a positive opinion of the non-OT releases on here is perfectly okay.

You can indeed prefer to watch the Prequel Trilogy, or Holiday Special, or one of the animated tv series, or read the EU books etc over the Original Trilogy (and also talk about them on here)… yet still also want the OOT released.

And you certainly don’t have to despise other non-OT content, find certain scenes in them the worst crime, or be just amazed that others here see things differently than you do.
 

I think you’ve misread my tone here - but I probably haven’t expressed myself very well! I’m not saying my take on RO is the ‘right’ one, or that to enjoy RO is to betray the manifesto of this site. Like I said to Silverwook, I just saw the subject at the top of the pile and felt compelled to give my two cents worth after all this time. I was posting from the perspective of being among friends in an ‘around the water cooler’ type way rather than seeking to put anyone off side. I genuinely apologise if I came off that way.

SilverWook said:

Why flog a dead Taun Taun at this point?

Is that directed at me Silver? If so, I haven’t gone through the whole thread so I’m not deliberately fanning old flames. I just saw the topic at the top of the pile and felt it was time to scratch this particular itch of mine (I haven’t commented on RO on this or any site ever).

What’s interesting to me is that RO gets such a great rap on a site dedicated to preserving the unaltered OT. I’m not saying that’s objectively wrong, I’m just amazed that other fans don’t see this as basically a defacto Special Edition change. There’s a wonderful purity to the original film which the Special Editions obviously violated. I just feel RO is an extension of that.

I’m probably gonna get slapped here, but I despise this film. Talk about Special editions - this film is ‘Han Shot First’ on steroids. Placing the Tantive at the battle itself and having Vader - who had just seen the rebels passing the plans through a doorway - suddenly get his facts wrong (“several transmissions were beamed to this ship…”), followed by an interrogation with Leia that doesn’t remotely reflect what Vader has supposedly just witnessed (perhaps Disney could do a Lucas and replace Vader’s lines with “Princess, I just saw you at the battle receiving the plans firsthand for Sith’s sake!”)…and all so we can see Vader exhibit a particular badassery that he fails to wield ten minutes later in 1977?!?

But the worst crime (no, it isn’t the appearance and repeated dialogue of the cantina aliens from ANH) is the Death Star exhaust port fiasco. The whole point of the exercise was that the shot was basically impossible. It was a desperate plan. That’s why every rebel in the briefing room was shifting nervously in their seats. That’s why Wedge Mk 1 said “that’s impossible, even for a computer”. That’s why the first attempt failed despite said computer. That’s why General Dodonna didn’t say “good news guys, a weakness was planted in the station for our benefit!”. That’s why it took Luke trusting in the Force to make this seemingly impossible shot work. If a dude was really going to plant a weakness in the DS, would he make it so effing difficult that only a budding space wizard could pull it off?

The Death Star wasn’t blown up because of insider sabotage. It was destroyed because Imperial hubris failed to account for rebel ingenuity and tenacity (hence the argument between Taggi and Motti in ANH), not to mention the wild card that was Luke Skywalker. Why mess with this?

Not to state the obvious on a site dedicated to this one truth but, as we’ve been stridently pointing out to Lucas for decades now, Star Wars '77 was fine as it was.

Does anyone know how Rey/Chewie knew the circumstances of the ‘slow chase’ and how/where to come out of hyperspace in order to send Rey to Snoke’s ship?

The thing is these arcs could have been achieved without diminishing the characters. For instance Han could have been using his old skills/contacts to recruit potential resistance allies. That way TFA could still have him separated from Leia and acting somewhat like the Solo of old, but with noble purpose.

Similarly Luke could have inadvertently ‘created’ Kylo Ren through the training process but, instead of giving up in despair, could have realised that the old ways were no longer adequate. His entire ‘hobo’ routine with Rey could have been a ruse - something like Yoda’s initial test/demeanour in TESB - that was designed to push Rey into seeking her own destiny rather than being trained in the traditional way. The ‘subversion’ could’ve been at the finale when Rey (and the audience) realises that Luke was guiding her all along. That way we get a subversive hobo-Luke without sacrificing his arc as completed in ROTJ. Plus it would explain why there was a map…

Oh, and Leia’s ‘Jedi moment’ should’ve been lifting those rocks for Rey and demonstrating that Rey still has much to learn.

I wish Force Ghosts had never been ‘explained’ (ie “an old friend has come back from the netherworld…etc etc”). That way it would all be ambiguous and we could see it however we wish.

BTW back in '83 I thought Anakin was appearing to Luke in Tatooine farmer apparel (it never occurred to me that Lucas intended Obi Wan’s desert wear to be actual Jedi garb!) - a kind of symbolic return to his pre-Darkside humble beginnings rather than a demonstration of Jedi enlightenment.

Hal 9000 said:

This is another benefit to the Restructured idea.

The base simply drains “the Sun” and fires upon targets. No awkward questions about it’s mobility are raised.

It seems like the filmmakers knew SKB was a bad idea but they decided to do it anyway, moving as quickly through it as possible.

But it would have to be mobile to drain another sun. That’s what’s so ludicrous. Let’s apply SK to ep 4 and say it was about to destroy Alderaan at Tarkin’s behest. Would Motti (or whoever) have to go through a process to choose a worthy system to destroy in order to charge up and then destroy Alderaan? In other words the Empire/FO is committed to destroying two systems every time. “Let’s destroy Alderaan”. “Okay, well we need to find an appropriate sun to drain - any other systems in need of punishing since we’re stuck with a two-for-one deal?”

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

I saw a post on imdb that really cracked me up. The poster (whose handle is ‘bobsutherby’) points out that by draining the sun, the SK Base consequently kills every planet in that system anyway. So all the base needs to do is drain stars!

Which begs the question (this is me now) - how does the FO choose which system it will destroy in order to power up to destroy another? Does it wait until at least 2 systems are in transgression, or does it have to choose stars with uninhabited or no planets?

I thought the IMDB forums were deleted after they closed them?

No, it was in the review section, but the guy decided to forgo a full review and just do a post about SK.

I saw a post on imdb that really cracked me up. The poster (whose handle is ‘bobsutherby’) points out that by draining the sun, the SK Base consequently kills every planet in that system anyway. So all the base needs to do is drain stars!

Which begs the question (this is me now) - how does the FO choose which system it will destroy in order to power up to destroy another? Does it wait until at least 2 systems are in transgression, or does it have to choose stars with uninhabited or no planets?

rodneyfaile said:

At this point, I have to adopt the opinion that Lucas had been overwhelmingly successful in rewriting history. The vast majority of the public have no idea multiple versions of Star Wars even exist. Most believe Lucas wrote every single word and designed every ship and costume, personally developed new technology to create the special effects, and had the entire intact vision all in his head in advance. I’m wondering how long before Lucas gets credit for humming the theme to John Williams for him to write.

The sad part is, Lucas does deserve so much admiration for creating this universe and not giving up as he fought to get it made. Star Wars is an amazing piece of imagination. Sharing the creative process with those under his leadership in no way diminishes his achievement. There is more than enough to go around. I just hate that some have had their work erased by the special editions.

So in my opinion, Lucas has won. Only Disney/Lucasfilm can do anything about it now. They could release the unaltered Original Trilogy in a new definitive set and produce their own new documentary. I’d go to the theater just to watch a new Star War documentary. Sadly, I do not think anyone is interested.

Maybe what we really need is a fan made documentary to go along with the fan made despecialized versions. I’d donate to a crowd funding for such a documentary.

You’re right - it seems Lucas has succeeded in rewriting history. I work with a lot of people in their 20s and early 30s, and they enjoy Star Wars to varying degrees. When I mention the ‘unaltered versions’ and bring them up to speed on how the SE came about, they’re either unaware of this notion or don’t really care anyway.

Of course as an OT fan from back in the day I’m less than thrilled about this (hence my being on this site) - but I didn’t realise just how angry I was about it until I saw the 40th anniversary celebrations on Youtube and watched Lucas banging on about mythological motifs and the usual hoo-haa to Warwick Davis - while no-one pulled him up on the fact that the very film they were celebrating no longer f##king exists! It’s absurd. Celebrate in 2037 or whatever year the SE technically reaches 40 if that’s how it is to be.

I’ve mentioned this in other posts but as I watched this clip, the next Youtube suggestion was a small 40th anniversary podcast with Gary Kurtz that actually celebrated and discussed the film in question. In fact I believe one of my first posts here was in response to that interview, and I semi-seriously suggested that a Gary Kurtz commentary track for Despecialized would be awesome. I stand by that assertion. RIP Gary.

I see Star Wars in its prime as being like a rock band. Take Keith out of the Stones, Joe Perry out of Aerosmith, Bruce Dickinson out of Iron Maiden, Bon Scott out of ACDC etc etc and it’s easy to see that a band (or film) is so much more than one person - regardless of whether they’re the main founder or creative nucleus. ROTJ is, to me, like the third album of band where the lead guitarist and drummer have quit (or been fired) and the record company has demanded more hits and insisted on a pop-producer and more synthesisers.

The ST is a reunion tour with a couple of the original members and all-new songs co-written by Mark Ronson to make sure they sound like the hits of yesteryear.

Great post Dre - sums up my feelings 100%.

Valheru_84 said:

nl0428 said:

Valheru_84 said:

Oh I’m very interested to see how the train wreck comes to a final rest so I can look at the mangled mess and move on, knowing that it’s finally stopped and I can actually start forgetting about it. Bit hard to be a Star Wars fan at the moment and not see all the usual stuff about the next episode and I guess you could say I have a morbid curiosity.

What I have zero interest in is paying to see IX at the cinemas or reading up on theories and additional content on the ST, especially if it concerns “Reylo”.

I’m sorry you don’t like the sequel trilogy, but I am a fan of the trilogy. If you don’t like The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, then you don’t need to go see Episode IX then. I hated Michael Bay’s Transformers movies, so I stopped going to see them. The more you watch, the more movies will be made by giving them your money.

No problem, the fact you like it is fine though and all I was saying is that I don’t understand how you expect Kylo and Rey to still get together after that chance was missed in TLJ. Rey would have to deviate massively from her current character arc (if you can call it that) and be ok with all the atrocities and blood on Kylo’s hands.

I did like TFA originally but it required the next movie or two to do a lot of explaining and that simply didn’t happen and as a result TFA becomes a pretty mediocre movie itself. So yeah, I definitely won’t be paying for a ticket to IX as there is literally no point for me.

With a somewhat heavy heart I absolutely agree with this. Despite some silly plot contrivances and the conga-line of Death Stars, I really liked TFA - but this was absolutely riding on the notion that JJ had answers to all the implied questions (which in turn would connect the new saga to the OT in a profound way). Now the thing looks rather vacuous. I’m genuinely curious about IX but not for the right reasons.

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

Creox said:
Here’s a thought. Perhaps her and Kylo are the epitome of force users. She’s not a Mary sue but the last conduit for the force, light and dark. She is the first to access and use the full potential of it?

I’m not sure what you mean by this, but if Rey and Kylo are simply lucky enough to be imbued with all this power, it becomes rather uninteresting if there are no consequences.

What do you mean no consequences? Who said that?

And again it diminishes Luke. It’s as if the saga is saying that Jedi greatness isn’t that difficult to attain after all, and that Luke was simply a lousy candidate.

Well first of all, Yoda does actually say outright that Luke is a lousy candidate. Second, powers =/= greatness.

Well the first six films - however ham-fisted in the telling - make a huge deal about training and how the wrong mind-set can have disastrous consequences when it comes to striving for Jedi-hood. The OT is about Luke’s growth from naive farmboy who craves adventure to a Zen master who wants to redeem his fallen father. And he suffers tremendous failures along the way. Anakin’s story charts that of a child prodigy whose emotional issues lead to ruin, despite his incredible talent.

Rey is just super-powerful. That’s it. No anger-issues or barriers or emotional/ego pitfalls from having lived like Conan the Barbarian on Jakku. She just nails it every time, and over two days! Sure, she’s sad about her parents, but it proves no hinderance whatsoever to her progress as an instant Jedi.

You’re missing the point. Rey’s goal in the story is not to become a super powerful Jedi.

Yeah, but that makes it even worse! What happened to “to be a Jedi takes the deepest commitment, the most serious mind”? Again, this just diminishes what has gone before.

So power does equal greatness in this trilogy (so far at least).

In what possible way is that true? Kylo is clearly very powerful but is he a great Jedi?

He doesn’t want to be a great Jedi. Kylo wants to be Vader, and he has worked hard at being such. What’s absurd is that his ‘equal in the light’ didn’t have to train or give the whole thing a second thought in order to be his equal.

Meanwhile Kylo is the same angry psycho that he was in TFA.

I mean, I guess if you reducing characters to flippantly described personality traits it’s easy to see why you’d misunderstand what’s going on.

Rian Johnson stated that he saw both Rey and Kylo as the protagonists of the ST. And they essentially form two halves of one whole. It is stated that they both have potential the likes of which haven’t been seen before, but they both end up doing very different things with it. If you want to talk about consequence, look at Ben, and what his desire for the power of the dark side as left him with. Whereas Rey is the opposite, she didn’t want the power, but it was thrust upon her. She just wants a family, while Ben struggles to cut ties with his the best he can. In a way, you almost have to look at their stories as a unit, and how they compare and contrast.

Ultimately to me it’s weird to see people complain about rehashed elements that to me are mostly minor window dressing stuff (basic plot similarities and such) while simultaneously complaining that more important things (like character arcs) aren’t being rehashed. Well, to me, we’ve already had two trilogies where the story is that the main character has had to learn discipline in gaining their powers, one where it goes right, one where it goes wrong. I like how in this trilogy we’re getting something different.

Yes, Yoda did denounce Luke as a candidate, and Luke proved him wrong. That’s the beauty of Luke’s arc.

Unfortunately if you ask me this is where the OT slightly falters, as the gap from Luke initially proving Yoda right and making a big mistake to Luke being a wizened Jedi knight is not really covered. Hopefully IX sticks the landing better than ROTJ.

I absolutely agree re ROTJ, and I feel the same about the new trilogy. The arcs you describe for Rey and Kylo above are cool in theory - just like Luke’s becoming a wizened Jedi in ROTJ - but it feels really half-baked. It’s like the writers are just throwing ideas out there willy nilly and letting the fans fill the gaps and write the lore themselves (which is exactly what we had to do when Luke suddenly required no more training in ROTJ or when Leia was suddenly ‘the other’). I think this trilogy would be infinitely better if they’d plotted it out first rather than just free-styling ideas.

But the Force thing is my own beef. I get that many fans don’t mind the Force having godlike agency, or powers just being easily acquired by anyone. I just prefer the TESB vibe and think that a reasonable (though not necessarily constrained dogmatically) adherence to this would’ve created a more consistent SW universe.

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

Creox said:
Here’s a thought. Perhaps her and Kylo are the epitome of force users. She’s not a Mary sue but the last conduit for the force, light and dark. She is the first to access and use the full potential of it?

I’m not sure what you mean by this, but if Rey and Kylo are simply lucky enough to be imbued with all this power, it becomes rather uninteresting if there are no consequences.

What do you mean no consequences? Who said that?

And again it diminishes Luke. It’s as if the saga is saying that Jedi greatness isn’t that difficult to attain after all, and that Luke was simply a lousy candidate.

Well first of all, Yoda does actually say outright that Luke is a lousy candidate. Second, powers =/= greatness.

Well the first six films - however ham-fisted in the telling - make a huge deal about training and how the wrong mind-set can have disastrous consequences when it comes to striving for Jedi-hood. The OT is about Luke’s growth from naive farmboy who craves adventure to a Zen master who wants to redeem his fallen father. And he suffers tremendous failures along the way. Anakin’s story charts that of a child prodigy whose emotional issues lead to ruin, despite his incredible talent.

Rey is just super-powerful. That’s it. No anger-issues or barriers or emotional/ego pitfalls from having lived like Conan the Barbarian on Jakku. She just nails it every time, and over two days! Sure, she’s sad about her parents, but it proves no hinderance whatsoever to her progress as an instant Jedi. So power does equal greatness in this trilogy (so far at least). Meanwhile Kylo is the same angry psycho that he was in TFA.

Yes, Yoda did denounce Luke as a candidate, and Luke proved him wrong. That’s the beauty of Luke’s arc.