Shopping Maul

Broom Kid said:

Only just recently noticed this in Empire, but I don’t know if I really noticed it or if I think I noticed it.

The guy in Star Wars who says “enemy fighters coming your way” is, I think, in Empire too? As the same rebel?

I looked it up and apparently that guy’s name is Del Goren, played by Burnell Tucker. IMDB is showing that Burnell Tucker is also in The Empire Strikes Back, and I think he’s the guy who is monitoring the Imperial Probe Droid transmission before Han and Chewie go out after it.

I love that guy! He seems to take his sweet-a## time saying “we’ve picked up a new group of signals…enemy fighters…”. It’s like he was an extra that was given one line and decided to milk the heck out of it.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

Yet, Luke then changes his mind.

He doesn’t change his mind about the Jedi, he changes his mind about helping the Resistance. This is shown very well in the Yoda scene. Yoda tells Luke that the teachings of the Jedi were flawed, and tells Luke to pass on everything he learned, both success and failure. Luke still believes that the old Jedi were flawed, but he decides to create a new order of Jedi, learning from the failures of the old.

I didn’t hear anything about a new order of Jedi. All I saw was Yoda chastising Luke for not living up to his potential as a Jedi.

You obviously weren’t paying attention during that scene. Yoda specifically says:

“Heeded my words not, did you. Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery, but weakness, folly, failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.”

It was Luke who chose to only see the Jedi through the lens of his own failure, and thus couldn’t see the bigger picture.

Yes, but Yoda’s speech allowed Luke to see the bigger picture. Once again, the quote above clearly contradicts the point you’re trying to make.

No it doesn’t. There is nothing in Yoda’s lesson to Luke, that indicates he’s presenting Luke with some new insight, that did not exist when the Jedi were in their prime. In fact Yoda saying “heeded my words not”, suggests the opposite of what you are suggesting. What Yoda is telling Luke is, that he did not do as he was taught. He should not only pass on his successes, but also allow others to learn from his failures, a lesson he probably gave to many Jedi in the past.

Um… yes, he is presenting Luke with a new lesson that Luke has not had before. He may have used it before the heyday of the Jedi, but it is not among the lesson’s we saw him teach Luke and the way the dialog is written makes it clear that he had only told Luke to pass on what he had learned without specifying that his failures were included in that. So this was a new lesson for Luke.

Well, the last time Yoda mentioned failure to Luke, it was a grim “that is why you fail” after the even more absolute “do or do not, there is no try”. No wonder the poor guy didn’t consider failure as a good thing!

An easier example of the same thing is Han Solo in TFA. Han returns to smuggling? Why? Han didn’t enjoy smuggling, or do it because it was his lifelong dream. He did it to get ahead, to make a buck. Why the heck would he return to a life of crime after having been a war-hero married to a princess/politician? Didn’t Leia and Han have a shared bank account? It’s just absurd. A better alternative would have been that Han was using his old skills to find allies for the Resistance. Since the New Republic has their heads in the sand re the First Order, Han decides (in lieu of his separation from Leia) to go off and recruit allies from the galaxy’s fringes. That way we get the Solo of old (as per TFA’s intention) but with new noble purpose that doesn’t negate his OT arc.

Similarly a disillusioned Luke with the weight of his own legend bearing down on him after his failure to train Ben Solo could absolutely have been conceived without backtracking Luke’s arc to pre-ROTJ status. As with Han, we could have had new challenges and new circumstances that necessarily resurrected the heroes’ old selves in a progressive rather than regressive way.

RogueLeader said:

I actually have not read it! I’m familiar with it and some of its ideas through its place in science fiction, its comparisons to Star Wars, and the Lynch adaptation (which I’ve never watched all the way through). I don’t know I haven’t read it yet, I know it is considered a classic and I’ve been wanting to pick it up, but now that movie is coming out I thought about holding off and getting my perspective on the film through a non-reader lens. Maybe we could discuss the film and compare our thoughts once it comes out since you are a repeat reader and I’ve never picked it up.

I will say the director, Denis Villenueve, is basically the best pick to adapt it. He is also a book fan, and all of his films have been pretty great (most recently Sicario, Arrival, Blade Runner 2049), and it has a stellar cast line up. I think they’ve split it into two parts in order to not cram in as much just in two hours. I think it is promising, and if he can’t adapt it satisfyingly I don’t think anyone can!

Well that does sound promising. I mean with the Lynch film I was like “well, what are you gonna do?”. I loved the visuals and general weirdness of the movie, but I basically felt (without slighting Lynch at all) that Dune just isn’t movie material. The books are just so rich in scope, and go waaay deep into politics and how myths are formed and how religion can manipulate all these things etc etc. I actually come away from reading Dune feeling smarter each time ha ha! But yeah, breaking the story up into a couple of parts would be wise! Thanks for the posts - I’m getting kinda excited for it now!

RogueLeader said:

If you guys don’t mind me going off topic briefly, are you excited/anxious about the upcoming Dune film, Maul? Since you mentioned it I thought you might be a fan.

I haven’t looked into it to be honest, although a good friend of mine (we read Dune together in High School during the 80s) is super psyched. I quite liked the '84 film, even though it was arguably pretty hokey. My Dune relationship slightly echoes my Star Wars one in that I considered it all ‘canon’ (that is all of Frank’s novels as well as the Anderson/Herbert additions) until I had an inexplicable mental shift and realised it all didn’t quite add up. So, strictly speaking, I think the first four (Frank Herbert) books are awesome and everything else is a few rungs down from there. But I re-read Dune every couple of years. I think it’s basically a work of genius.

How about you? Are you a Dune-ist?

The whole legend/messiah/hermit routine was done really well in the Dune novels IMO. It’s a similar scenario (maybe Rian’s a fan?) where Paul’s prescience/power comes to a standstill and he wanders off into the desert to die. He survives of course, and becomes this ragged preacher who rails against the current regime from the sidelines, challenging his own legend as he does so.

The difference is Frank Herbert still manages to maintain the dignity of the character. I’m a big fan of the Gary Kurtz ‘disillusioned Luke wandering off into the sunset’ idea, but it comes with the caveat that Luke not become pathetic. Since I find ROTJ to be disappointingly dumbed-down (after the brilliantly nuanced TESB), I still cling to the notion of Luke rejecting the binary view of the Force shared by his mentors, and seeking a new path.

This is what TLJ should have been IMO. Not Luke ‘giving up’, but Luke rejecting the notion of Jedi orthodoxy. Perhaps he and Kylo could have shared a vision where death to one of them was revealed as the only outcome. Kylo embraces the vision (in his lust for power and the restoration of his grandfather’s evil legacy) and Luke rejects it because he’s sick of this ‘Dark Side/Light Side’ business and doesn’t want to kill his sister’s son. His not training Rey could be a ruse, a deliberate way of setting her on a new path free of the old Jedi constraints. When Yoda appears in TLJ, Luke reveals the ruse - that the old ways are gone now - and then does the Force-skype with Kylo. This would be a way of restoring the legend, setting a new agenda as well as a new ethical framework for Star Wars (there is no Dark Side, only the choices we make), and kickstarting a new type of Jedi.

I mean this essentially what the film was doing, but I don’t believe we needed to have Luke stand over Kylo with murderous (however fleeting) intent, or revert Luke to pre-ROTJ status with Yoda repeating the “always looking to the horizon” lecture. Luke’s ‘looking to the horizon’ was his strength. This movie should have, and could have, reinforced this.

StarkillerAG said:

I don’t know why you like Mauler so much. Most of his videos are multiple-hour rants about surface-level nitpicks and complaints that don’t even make sense. He’s one of my least favorite film analysis Youtubers.

While I don’t share your view, I certainly don’t hold Mauler as some paragon of truth, even if I do enjoy his content. And while I’m at it, I’m not the biggest fan of EFAP as it tends to slide into a ‘bullying gang’ mentality at times - more because of the other participants than Mauler himself. In fact during the debate I cited, I often felt Major Lee wasn’t getting a fair hearing, even if I didn’t agree with his comments. I think a one-on-one with Mauler would’ve been much more productive and civil.

But I think Mauler does an admirable job of attempting to stay on point. When it’s about plot, it’s about plot. When it’s about lore, it’s about lore. He’s very clear about when he’s being subjective (ie his rants) and objective (his analyses). He’s all about the films and the craft. It doesn’t mean he’s always right - I often disagree with him - but I do think he’s fair and doesn’t resort to the kind of strawmanning that other Youtubers do. And even more ironically, Major Lee had supposedly insulted Mauler on Twitter way before the EFAP thing and found himself having to apologise when he discovered that Mauler was rather reasonable. Like I keep saying, toxicity goes both ways.

And to Screams (if it is indeed me you’re referring to), I’m not trying to derail the thread or get a rise out of anyone. The thread, as I see it, is about toxicity and I honestly feel that the Major Lee video is feeding the fire, not extinguishing it. I don’t like the idea of internet bullying any more than you do, so I hope you understand that this is all in the interest of conversation and a shared desire for a nicer, more civil conversational space.

Peace and may the Force do its thing…

Let me just add (and then I’ll leave it alone) that I think there are worthy conversations to be had about internet toxicity (re Star Wars and everything else) just as there are worthy conversations to be had about identity politics in popular culture (not to mention conversations about SW storytelling, lore, characters etc etc). I just don’t think an equally toxic video that just happens to be coming from the opposite idealogical direction is the answer to this.

Okay, I’ll shut up now…

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

Broom Kid said:

Videos like the one above are helpful because they point out the grifting being done in the name of “fandom” at its ugliest, they point out that people can amass huge audiences in a fandom, and profit off those audiences, without ever having proved they even like the thing they’re dedicating all their time to. They can be seen as a very useful wake-up call for people wondering why they devote so much of who they are to these pursuits, when it doesn’t seem to make them like a thing more than the millions upon millions of other people who have never once even thought to join a forum or tweet about Star Wars, much less build a whole persona around it. In fact it seems to make them angrier and more frustrated way more often.

But for all the useful information in that video, it neglects the basic fact that “fandom” itself is a grift, selling people the lie that obsessing over fictional things whose creation is completely out of your control is a positive, healthy way to live. Fandom is grass-roots marketing at its purest, the belief that opting to be walking commercials for someone else’s art can be spiritually rewarding. That you can build meaningful, healthy relationships out of that shared obsession, and that the world can be made a better, more manageable, more interesting place by simply mixing consumerism with love and letting the two impulses inform one another.

Being a fan of things makes sense, is understandable, and mostly harmless. But there’s a problem with toxic fandom because the societal construct that is modern fandom is, itself, toxic.

Anyway, I like Star Wars, I like talking about it with people, and I like talking about it with people in small, quiet places, because talking about it with people in larger ones is an exercise in harvesting anger and frustration pretty much 100% of the time.

I love this post, thanks for posting it! The only thing I would add is that the video (I assume you’re referring to the Major Lee clip) is a perfect example of the problem - not the solution. I think a few folks here might be swayed by the fact that he’s supposedly on ‘our’ side of the argument, but he’s no better than the people he’s opposing. More tellingly, he debated a popular Youtuber named Mauler on a stream called EFAP and basically fell apart when it came to matters of plot, lore, characters etc etc regarding TLJ. I suspect this clip is his revenge.

I’d say the video highlights and informs people of what certain toxic channels and media are like and how they operate - rather than an attempt at a solution to the issue.

Again, taking the video on it’s own merit it doesn’t really matter that the creator of it didn’t apparantly converse well in some sort of online debate - the points made in the video still stand - they aren’t diminished or disappear because of a chat with whoever this Mauler fellow is.

‘Revenge’? Really? Well even IF so, then it seems something constructive has come out of this supposed attempt at ‘revenge’ then - nice one 😃

As in the TLJ Spoiler thread, I don’t understand the ‘swaying’ thing - or ‘sides’ - the video seems to simply illustrate what some of the more hyperbolic, toxic, or repeatedly negative channels & media out there over a couple of years - maybe longer. It seems to be one of the few out videos there that has done such in this manner (as far I can know - though please link or share any others; I think Biggs Audio Dynamite wanted people to PM him with any other examples?)

Also, as in the TLJ Spoiler thread - it seems you are attempting to somehow discredit [or denigrate] the man behind the video - rather than discussing the actual content he highlighted in the video. A shame, that.

I’ll leave it there as I don’t know anything about this MajorLee guy (other than he made an insightful video on the toxicity in some of the Star Wars media) - and I’m now just repeating what has already been said in the TLJ Spoiler thread 😉
 

He has basically picked three or four of the most outspoken Youtubers of a certain type - ie the ones who aggressively conflate SW with identity politics - and cynically merged it with a general position that ‘the haters don’t understand the genius of TLJ’. It’s a silly argument that typically ignores - and even ridicules - the enormous spectrum of opinion that actually resides between and around those two separate subjects.

The reason I pointed out his EFAP debate is that Mauler - unlike other critics - only debates films at the level of technique, storytelling, narrative consistency etc etc. And in this instance Major Lee fell to pieces and revealed quite tellingly that he doesn’t care about these things at all and loves TLJ regardless. Which is absolutely fine, but he knows that there are genuine reasons for fans to take issue with the films (particularly TLJ) and/or the direction they’re going in, and instead uses this video to strawman any detractors before delivering the punchline at the end (which is, of course, that TLJ is brilliant). It’s sloppy argumentation that adds nothing of value to this conversation.

Broom Kid said:

Videos like the one above are helpful because they point out the grifting being done in the name of “fandom” at its ugliest, they point out that people can amass huge audiences in a fandom, and profit off those audiences, without ever having proved they even like the thing they’re dedicating all their time to. They can be seen as a very useful wake-up call for people wondering why they devote so much of who they are to these pursuits, when it doesn’t seem to make them like a thing more than the millions upon millions of other people who have never once even thought to join a forum or tweet about Star Wars, much less build a whole persona around it. In fact it seems to make them angrier and more frustrated way more often.

But for all the useful information in that video, it neglects the basic fact that “fandom” itself is a grift, selling people the lie that obsessing over fictional things whose creation is completely out of your control is a positive, healthy way to live. Fandom is grass-roots marketing at its purest, the belief that opting to be walking commercials for someone else’s art can be spiritually rewarding. That you can build meaningful, healthy relationships out of that shared obsession, and that the world can be made a better, more manageable, more interesting place by simply mixing consumerism with love and letting the two impulses inform one another.

Being a fan of things makes sense, is understandable, and mostly harmless. But there’s a problem with toxic fandom because the societal construct that is modern fandom is, itself, toxic.

Anyway, I like Star Wars, I like talking about it with people, and I like talking about it with people in small, quiet places, because talking about it with people in larger ones is an exercise in harvesting anger and frustration pretty much 100% of the time.

I love this post, thanks for posting it! The only thing I would add is that the video (I assume you’re referring to the Major Lee clip) is a perfect example of the problem - not the solution. I think a few folks here might be swayed by the fact that he’s supposedly on ‘our’ side of the argument, but he’s no better than the people he’s opposing. More tellingly, he debated a popular Youtuber named Mauler on a stream called EFAP and basically fell apart when it came to matters of plot, lore, characters etc etc regarding TLJ. I suspect this clip is his revenge.

For my part I love talking about Star Wars in exhausting geeky detail because not only is it a wonderful escape from the everyday, but this is something 11 year-old me could only have dreamed of back in the day (ie debating Rogue One plotholes with other manbabies!).

ZkinandBonez said:

Only a few years ago did I notice that Darth Vader’s helmet wobbles in the wind while he delivers the “search your feelings” line (and the rest of the scene until Luke falls) in ESB.

It’s become for me one of those; once you’ve seen it you can’t unsee it moments.

Or the bit where Luke leaps down from the Carbon Freezing platform and bounces off a little trampoline…(I didn’t spot that one, I read it somewhere)!

Another one is Leia saying “come on General, let’s move” (in ROTJ) but her mouth seems to be saying “come on Han…”

RogueLeader said:

NO SPOILERS

Hey Everyone,

I believe a new batch of leaks regarding Episode IX has dropped, and people have been compiling the known leaks into a pretty extensive plot layout for the film. I haven’t read through it all, but from what I’ve read it still seems a bit confusing and disjointed because a lot of things are still missing, but if the sources are legitimate then you will know a lot about the movie before going into it.

If you have been keeping up with this thread just keep up with Episode IX news and discussion, but you still want to be a little surprised by the movie, I think this is a good stopping point.

So I would recommend staying off this thread and avoiding forums like all of the Star Wars subreddits (in particular r/StarWarsLeaks). During the ‘dry seasons’ Leaks was a good place to keep up with Star Wars news, but now I feel like the POTENTIAL spoilers are getting pretty substantial. I would try to block certain Star Wars YouTube channels as well if that is even possible.

I think this is what I’m going to do from this point forward. This fall is gonna fly by really fast, and it’ll be a flash in between Mandalorian airing the IX releasing.

So, if you’re like me, now might be a good time to commit to avoiding potential spoilers, otherwise you’re gonna start seeing things you wish you hadn’t.

You’re awesome Rogue! Thanks for the heads up!

DominicCobb said:

Of course the “inconsequential” similarities can be a bit too much also. In both TPM and TFA, the aerial battle to take down the spherical battle station plays second fiddle to the more engaging lightsaber duel. And while the goals of the battles are the same - take out the threat (battle droids, super laser) - TFA takes the similarity a step too far by having it be essentially another Death Star. Now, I don’t think my theory here is quite exact, because ROTJ does that too, but I think it must be because there aren’t as many other similarities in ROTJ that it doesn’t bother people as much. Or maybe it did at one point but it’s been so long now no one cares. I don’t know, just thinking out loud.

I think ROTJ has earned something of a free pass over time. As far as I can tell it used to get flack for a lot of the same reasons as the prequels, with repetition being one of those. Personally I’d just add that there was something rather awesome about seeing the Death Star battle and aesthetic being revisited with improved SPFX back in '83. But to then repeat it again 30 years later - especially now that incredible SPFX has become somewhat trivial as a concept - might be a step too far for many.

RogueLeader said:

Agreed. The real answer was just like you said, Lucas’ relaxed views on continuity and if it is really that important. There’s definitely ways to explain it though I think. I did use to feel that it was one of the weaker elements of the OT, as far as it having very little set up and feeling tacked on. But over time I’ve realized the very PG incest vibes give Luke another similarity to King Arthur, who in some iterations of his legend had unknowingly slept with his own sister, resulting in Mordred, who would go on to betray Arthur and destroy Camelot.

Not really prequel related I suppose. Though you could argue the prequels parallel Arthurian legend as far as the Republic being like Ancient Rome which feel in the time before Arthur, and his father Uther Pendragon being analogous to Anakin in some ways. So the prequels continue that tradition of mirroring real myths that the OT started.

I don’t think these parallels were intentional but they do make me enjoy them more. Repeating ideas, even if it was unknowingly.

I absolutely hear ya! And I find this fascinating from the perspective of having occupied both camps - I was a fan who happily squared all the round holes to make it all fit, just as I am now a fan with a more ‘ruthless’ canon-sense. Neither is ‘correct’ of course, it’s just down to personal credulity and subjectivity. I mean is Jar Jar Binks a clever riff on some kind of mythological ‘jester trope’ (and a homage to Charlie Chaplin) or is he just a badly written cartoon character that annoyed everyone over the age of 9? It’s an interesting question with no true answer. But it’s so fun to discuss!

yotsuya said:

The one thing that a lot of people have issue with is Leia remembering her mother. I don’t. Leia is obviously force sensitive and picked up something from her mother in the womb. As many of us have confusing memories from when we were young (Luke making two throws with the grappling hook for instance), Leia may have confusing memories of a mother she never really saw with her own eyes. Lucas did a good job creating a character in ANH that fits with being Luke’s sister even if that wasn’t his original intention. But such surprising story revelation are common in myths. I’m curious if TROS will have some and if we can’t make another topic for that one after the film comes out (we can only intelligently discuss about half the ST because we don’t know how events in TROS might recolor what we have already seen as the revelation of Luke’s father and sister colored dialog and events in ANH and TESB).

Always love your posts so I promise I’m not trolling, but I think this ‘sister’ business is giving Lucas waaaay too much credit. George was basically clumsily writing his way out of a corner on this one, and it absolutely shows. We have obvious romantic overtones in the first two films, we have no evidence of Leia’s having been adopted other than a clumsy “hey Leia, you know how you were adopted” line from Luke in ROTJ, we have Yoda rejecting Luke on age grounds yet supposedly thinking an entirely untrained twin would not only be viable but also be amenable to being a potential Jedi despite the shock of suddenly being Vader’s daughter, we have Yoda making the initial ‘other’ claim while Leia was a prisoner on Bespin whose unforeseeable fate Yoda himself had implored Luke to sacrifice for the greater good etc etc etc. To then add the extra layer of Leia’s memories not squaring with the prequels (Lucas is demonstrated to have assumed that Leia’s mother had survived until the twins were toddlers back in ‘81) just shows Lucas’ very relaxed views when it comes to continuity, rather than some sophisticated grasp of mythology.

NeverarGreat said:

Shopping Maul said:

Mocata said:

I don’t know if they showed a new planet, but it looked vaguely like place where Maz Canata lived. Maybe she had a bunch of other Jedi junk lying around. Then again maybe it’s just a generic forest world.

I assumed it was a vision as soon as I watched it and I suspect most people did. Not really a slip up on the official discussion leak.

It didn’t stop all the evil clone discussions.

I thought it might be Endor. The hippie festival Rey and co. come upon looks like it could be an Ewok thing?

Didn’t some of the early concept art for Ep 9 show Yavin 4? That would be my guess as to where the ‘new’ Resistance base is, and where Rey is training with the probe.

I’m assuming the Death Star chunk crash-landed on Endor and maybe wreaked enough ecological damage to create barren areas, hence the landscape behind Rey and co. as they advance upon the festival. The Ewoks may be gathering to combat the great evil that has been spreading from the DS wreckage since the battle 30 years ago. Rey could simply have gotten the remote from the Falcon where Finn tossed it aside in TFA.
Or has it been established that it’s the first Death Star in the ocean…?

Mocata said:

I don’t know if they showed a new planet, but it looked vaguely like place where Maz Canata lived. Maybe she had a bunch of other Jedi junk lying around. Then again maybe it’s just a generic forest world.

I assumed it was a vision as soon as I watched it and I suspect most people did. Not really a slip up on the official discussion leak.

It didn’t stop all the evil clone discussions.

I thought it might be Endor. The hippie festival Rey and co. come upon looks like it could be an Ewok thing?

https://boards.theforce.net/threads/marjorie-eaton-the-original-emperor.50033425/

This explains it a little bit. Someone in the thread assumes - and I agree - that maybe it wasn’t planned that the Emperor would have such a big role in ROTJ since the 9-film saga was still being bandied about at this point.

I’m also probably in the minority in that I prefer the original. Clive Revill sounds like an evil Obi Wan - potentially someone who could lure you to the Dark Side with gentle (yet sinister) persuasion rather than just goading you into permanently losing your temper.

Luke wakes up in bed back on Tatooine with his Aunt, Uncle, Ben Kenobi, and the droids standing around him. Luke, bewildered, is like “it was…so real…there was a dark lord…a muppet…and you were there, and you, and…”

oojason said:

‘Little Girl Dressed As Rey From STAR WARS Gives Us Hope’:-

https://nerdist.com/article/little-rey-disney-world-star-wars
 

'Fandom can be exhausting. It’s an unfortunate byproduct of loving something so much–the passion that comes with that love can be both positive and toxic. The Star Wars fandom knows this quandary well; it’s full of some of the most loving, caring fans in the world, but the internet can be vile. That love can be on the attack on a near-constant basis. It can make you question this thing you thought you loved, and make you wonder if it’s even worth it.

But then something like this video comes along and you remember that Star Wars is a space fantasy about self-discovery, finding your place in the galaxy, and conquering your greatest fears. It’s a sandbox for escapism and imagination. It’s a place where you too can be Luke Skywalker. Or Han Solo. Or, if you’re part of this new generation, Rey from Nowhere.’

https://twitter.com/reysidaisy/status/1163219540484022272

'The video [above] has gone viral from a number of accounts and shows a little girl at the Star Wars Launch Bay in Orlando’s Walt Disney World. She’s dressed as Rey and greets each passing character with the Force. She encounters a number of familiar bad guys: Darth Vader, Boba Fett, Darth Maul, Captain Phasma–all of whom merely give her a look and move on. But at the end of the line is Chewbacca and Rey, who greet her with affection; they even bend down to give her a hug.

Videos like this remind us what Star Wars still means to children, and how the galaxy’s heroes continue to inspire. It’s a good thing for any Star Wars fans–even the disillusioned ones–to see and take in. The fandom is as strong and as important as ever.’
 

(more links in the above article)
 

I love this! My wife’s an author so we often do Comicon-type events with lots of cosplay abounding. I have to admit that I’ve teared up more than once at the sight of little Reys and Kylos running around. It does remind me of the innocence of Star Wars, what it has always meant to me, and what it will no doubt mean in the future. Cool post!

RogueLeader said:

“some dank corners of society” haha, very apt!

Yeah, I think this can definitely go both ways, and maybe this is sort of a byproduct of the internet, where conversations are constantly happening online. And suddenly there is this feedback loop that transforms the pleasant sound of reasonable discussion into a screeching war between two sides.

I think it often plays out this way: say someone online wants to have a conversation that is related to race/sex/etc. that they’re genuinely curious about, but then they get called racist/sexist for simply asking the question. It may have just been one insult out of five fair responses, but we know how aggressive comments tend to stand out more. This person may have been open and willing to change his mind, but the personal attack may cause him to fall back into the other camp, and never really understand what the issue was or ever agree with it because of that association.

Especially when it comes to issue of race/sex, it can be tricky having any discussion about it with some people. If you’re trying to talk about inherent bias that exists in literally every person, some people can take just that observation as a personal attack, depending on their own sense of security, but also the attitude/tone of the person they’re talking too.

And the same can play out the other way. The Internet has created this boogieman of the SJW and the femininazi. So people won’t even give ideas regarding feminism, for example, a chance because they feel like they know everything they need to because they followed the algorithm of guys complaining about it on YouTube.

Which kind of ties into the Mary Sue thing. One person might have a fair point about how Rey fits into common traits associated with that trope. But then another person brings up the inherent bias of female characters being called wish fulfillment characters when male characters are rarely ever criticized for the exact same thing, and then the original person feels like they’ve been called a sexist and it devolves into a fight. Or, sometimes a person just calls them a “SEXIST!” and the conversation literally goes nowhere.

It’s weird. I think people get unfairly labeled racist or sexist when literally most people have inherent biases regarding race and sex. They’re not bad people, it might be something they might not be aware of. People who intentionally discriminate based off race or sex deserve that label, but a personal with intentional bias versus unconscious bias or two different types of people. So throwing around those terms devalues the seriousness of the labels, as well as potentially alienating the person who desperately wants/needs to understand their inherent biases to overcome them, which can lead them to become MORE biased. Humans can be a god damned self-fulfilling prophecy, haha.

I’ve seen the opposite also play out, where someone has a really interesting meta or analysis of The Last Jedi and people call point fingers calling “SJW propaganda” or “feminist agenda”. Pop Culture Detective has a really interesting video regarding TLJ and ideas of feminism and masculinity, but you see a lot of those kind of comments there. It’s possible it is partly because they’ve already made their minds up on how they feel about the movie, or they might be insecure regarding their own masculinity and are projecting those complicated feelings online, but regardless, that is why I think it is important to try to approach these topics with respect. If you want people to be open-minded about your opinion, it has to start with respect. So I think a lot of these conversations have to be approached with civility just for the mere desire to counter what apparently is the status quo of online conversation.

I think we just forget how nuanced these conversations can be, and we fit “pro-TLJ” and “anti-TLJ” into boxes. There are pro-TLJ people who think some people take shit on twitter TOO far, and I know anti-TLJ people feel the same way.
Clearly most people who don’t like the film don’t agree with the hate and death threats people like Kellie Marie Tran and Rian Johnson have gotten. There are also people in the pro-ST camp give Reylos A LOT of shit because they think shipping them equates to supporting abusive relationships. What could be an interesting discussion devolves into name calling.

Anyway, people like that guy get themselves into that problem when even agreeing to a debate, so I really don’t have much sympathy. I like TLJ for very personal reasons, so I don’t know why I would feel the need to defend my reasons for liking a movie. Or, if there would even be any logic into that kind of debate format. I don’t like Jurassic World, but I’m not going to pressure people into a debate about why they’re not allowed to like Jurassic World. I remember ranting about JW after its release, a lot like how hardcore anti-TLJ people on YouTube rant about that movie, and in retrospect I feel like the conversations I had with people at that time was some of the most pretentious, self-entitled bullshit I’ve ever wasted breath on. Mostly because I was pretty condescending. In retrospect I thought, why can’t I just let people enjoy a movie they like?
And the answer had more to do with me than it did with them or the movie.

I second what Dre said - great post and keep 'em coming! You pretty much said what I’m trying to say - only better!

RogueLeader said:

While I think a video like this is long overdue, I do agree with Maul that this creator stoops to their level at times, which I think will struggle to bring over people who might be on that dangerous side of the fandom.

I think there are a lot of YouTubers who do have criticisms of the new movies, but they discuss it pretty maturely. They point out their problems with it and then move on to other topics that they enjoy more. This guy is clearing pointing out some of the more toxic creators who might not have the best motivations, and I think that is good.

While I don’t think it makes his viewpoint any less valid, I think resorting to the occasional insult or name-calling really doesn’t help make his points seem legitimate. The thing is, there are probably a lot of younger people who are Star Wars fans, especially boys, that are being introduced to concepts like social justice and feminism through these people, which, in my opinion, is probably not the best introduction to those ideas.

It literally boils down to these people stirring the pot for as revenue, and suddenly you have millions of people repeating those talking points like gospel.
Another YouTuber he didn’t even mention was Vito, who I think has some pretty clear political opinions, and I know at least one of his TLJ videos has 6 million views. That’s crazy.

Maybe we’re blowing it out of proportion, but I just wonder how it (among other things conjured by the Great Algorithm) could be influencing the beliefs and values of the Gen Z audience watching these videos. Really Star Wars is just a drop in the bucket of a larger issue that has been discussed recently. But it does seem any kind of civil discussion on either side is overshadowed by what basically feels like amateur yellow journalism, but on a global scale.

Also, debating any of those people is a wasted effort. I don’t agree with Ben Shapiro, but he is a master debater, and can make any of his opinions seem right with his skill. It’s just more of the same tactics and strategies for them that they have basically perfected to a T through their ridiculously long videos.

Recently Sam Harris did talks/debates with Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson. What was really inspiring about this was that, despite very disparate views and beliefs, these guys all managed to keep it civil and even downright friendly. On one occasion Ben misrepresented one of Harris’ views online and, when Harris pointed this out, Ben happily retracted and corrected his statement. This is so much rarer than it should be, and I think the Star Wars conversation is an interesting microcosm of the same thing.

My pet-peeve is the ‘guys can’t handle strong female characters’ meme. Yes, this probably rings true in some dank corners of society, but I think in this instance it’s mostly a convenient distraction from actual criticism. And the question of identity/woke politics and their possible effect on modern movies is a worthy and (IMO) interesting conversation that sadly gets derailed by knee-jerk assumptions of sexism. It’s entirely possible to agree with the principles of so-called identity politics without liking the way these ideals are being presented or expressed. Somehow this nuance gets lost in the melee.

I think the video is every bit as bad as what he’s supposedly railing against (if not worse). Lest I be accused of being ‘toxic’ myself, let me reiterate that I’m left-leaning, drink soy milk, and despise what the internet has become. But this video is exactly the kind of smug clickbait crap that he’s supposedly taking a stance against. Any idiot can pull quotes from the likes of Jeremy from Geeks and Gamers and build an entire case around it. This is ridiculous. We have to get away from this stupid Star Wars tribalism and let each argument be assessed on its merit and intent, rather than these insane ‘us vs them’ rampages on both ‘sides’.

By the way MajorLee debated Mauler and crew on a series called EFAP and couldn’t answer/justify any of the legitimate concerns (ie plot holes, lore, character arcs etc etc) concerning TLJ. His default was along the lines of an exasperated “I don’t care, I just love this movie”. And that’s fine, but to then turn around and push this particular narrative, when he knows full well that there are wide ranging and legitimate views concerning these films, is disingenuous at best. He is literally being just as petulant a fanboy as those he seeks to bring down.

Don’t be fooled by the fact that you might agree with his sentiment.

Creox said:

Shopping Maul said:

On the criticism/negativity side I think the overview of the films remains pretty consistent - ROTJ cops it for Ewoks and childishness, the prequels cop it for Jar Jar, kid Anakin, and flat acting/romance, the SEs cop it for ‘Greedo shot first’ and ‘Jedi Rocks’, TFA cops it for being a rehash, and TLJ cops it for not answering TFA’s questions, overpowering Rey contrary to the lore, sending Leia flying through space, and diminishing Luke Skywalker. Yes, there are wide variations within these basics, and the internet obviously compounds things in a special way, but to deny TLJ’s having been something of a bummer to the franchise is ridiculous. I’m not saying this to be confrontational, and I can’t say exactly how big a detriment this has been to the Disney SW project overall, but I think it’s pretty obvious that TROS has to ‘redeem’ the series to quite an extent.

I don’t get the Luke thing here. Although he did not spin around with his saber like a top and bring a mountain down on Kylo with the force pull he did project his image across a galaxy and save the resistance in doing so. The latter act being much closer to the Jedi way than hacking and slashing. The issue, imo, was that it wasn’t as action oriented for many fans. I thought it was epic.

I’m not necessarily agreeing with the general assessment, I’m just stating it as a kind of sidebar to Dre’s more scientific analysis. While I’m not so sure about Luke’s having given up entirely, I really liked his showdown with Kylo and the way he died. I thought the idea of Luke appearing as aggressor whilst actually pulling the wool over Kylo’s eyes was brilliant and very much in keeping with his ROTJ stance.

I was stating all of this as more of a general reaction to TLJ in the wider world and how that may have impacted Dre’s stats.