Shopping Maul

Broom Kid said:

“People didn’t reject TLJ because their emotional maturity wasn’t up to the task”

Some people obviously did though. The idea that NOBODY did that doesn’t make any sense. It’s an overstatement you’re making in response to an overstatement he’s making to arrive at one of his bigger points (which I find lucid and relevant). It’s not total nonsense to suggest people didn’t understand the Last Jedi, especially not in the face of two years of people very loudly not understanding it in front of as many people as possible.

There’s no point in attempting to reject observable reality simply because it doesn’t align with your personal viewpoint. You’re not the people he’s talking about, and that’s fine. You don’t need to then try and further argue that the people he’s talking about don’t, and have never, existed. They did, and they still do. You aren’t among their number, and don’t need to count yourself among them for your opinions to have validity.

I don’t take your arguments against the review as an attack at all, but I do think trying to erase the group of people he’s talking about doesn’t help anything.

Further - I don’t think there’s anything really sanctimonious about the tone of the review at all because he’s also describing how he understands, and sometimes indulges, in the headspace he’s also criticizing. He’s saying that he’s been there, and he still visits semi-frequently, but it’s because he knows of what he speaks that he’s able (and willing) to make the criticisms he’s making.

Well I can only run with my own anecdotal observations obviously, but the criticisms of TLJ seem (to me) to be pretty consistent and very rarely in the meta realm. I don’t see anyone saying for instance that Luke couldn’t be broken and dejected, or that Leia couldn’t have Force abilities, or that a slow chase wasn’t possible or that the legend of Luke Skywalker and the Jedi couldn’t use an overhaul. I only ever see the same stuff about character and lore and plot holes and the like. It’s generally surface stuff rather than fans balking at brave ideas. But again that’s just my observation and I accept your point about my generalisations.

There’s a wider point that I think many reviewers are ignoring - TROS exists within an established realm. For example I actually don’t like many aspects of where SW has ended up. I still cringe at the ‘Leia as sister’ thing even now, and hate that she’s a Skywalker/Jedi. I hate that the Force is so genetic, or that Force Ghosts have progressed beyond Obi Wan’s casual log-sitting and now control the weather and grasp solid objects! I could go on, but the point I’m making is that I really enjoyed TROS in the context of really liking what it was doing despite not being thrilled with the sandpit the game is now playing out in. Rey being a Palpatine was awesome to me - not because I like the idea of inherited power at all - but because it reconciles how I felt about her insane power levels in the previous films. Her being a Skywalker would not have done the trick for me - her being a baby Sith Lord (an unknown quantity at this point as far as I know) was a great antidote to the rather cavalier writing in the previous instalments. So it’s not really fan-conservatism driving me so much as a desire for a consistent narrative.

But I’m rambling now, sorry! Thanks for the reply!

Broom Kid said:

I posted what I think is my favorite review of this movie earlier, but its author tweeted something that is very relevant to the discussion.

https://twitter.com/mangiotto/status/1207423051404431360

"The thing about giving fans what they want is it holds a mirror up to the sad limits of a fan’s imagination. Not just for possible paths to evolve their objects of veneration, but for their own potential growth as human beings. “Look! Look! This is all you think you deserve.”

That’s an effective description of the creative impulse behind this movie. It really is.

(that review, again, if you missed it: https://www.filmfreakcentral.net/ffc/2019/12/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker.html)

I’m not attacking you but this guy’s sanctimony is off the chart. People didn’t reject TLJ because their emotional maturity wasn’t up to the task - they rejected it because they thought it was a badly written mess. Yes, it had some great ideas, but it was a car-crash of a film (for many) in terms of plot, tone, lore, characters etc etc. This whole “you’re just not sophisticated enough to understand it” thing is total nonsense. I really enjoyed TROS because it was to me (a fan since '77) a great SW movie that pretty much exemplified what I wish ROTJ had been. Plus (IMO) it cleaned up the mess Rian Johnson left behind. I don’t need some guy telling me that it it’s because I’m riddled by sad limitations and am happy to stunt my own growth as a human being!

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

I see the supposed rejection of ROTJ’s ‘happily ever after’ as more of a reaction to ROTJ than anything else. People seem to have forgotten what a disappointment that film was, not just to many fans but to folks who were involved in the films. I’m pretty sure that’s why the comics had Luke turn to the Dark Side in the 90s, or why we have a ‘disillusioned Luke in exile’ in TFA with Han having his long overdue death scene. Not everyone left the 1983 Ewok party feeling satisfied. I’m more than happy to see ROTJ as ‘a’ victory and not necessarily ‘the’ victory.

But at least ROTJ had some powerful themes at its core, even if everything ended a bit too neatly. TROS essentially redoes this ending only much bigger, and louder, but ultimately much less effective imo.

Yes, ROTJ had the themes but for me this film really does them better. Of course it will only ever be a copy, since ROTJ already happened, but here’s what I loved…

No Death Star. While a fleet of planet-smashing Star Destroyers isn’t the greatest idea in the world, it is infinitely better than DS II.

Rey was actually tempted to turn to the Dark Side for a legitimately compelling reason - give up your soul to save your friends. Luke’s temptation was simply “go on, get mad 'cos that’s bad!”.

Rey’s temptation and how she dealt with it actually had a bearing on the battle. Luke’s scenario on DS II was irrelevant to the war.

I liked the movie in general, but the above really made it for me.

I see the supposed rejection of ROTJ’s ‘happily ever after’ as more of a reaction to ROTJ than anything else. People seem to have forgotten what a disappointment that film was, not just to many fans but to folks who were involved in the films. I’m pretty sure that’s why the comics had Luke turn to the Dark Side in the 90s, or why we have a ‘disillusioned Luke in exile’ in TFA with Han having his long overdue death scene. Not everyone left the 1983 Ewok party feeling satisfied. I’m more than happy to see ROTJ as ‘a’ victory and not necessarily ‘the’ victory.

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

I liked it. In fact I was surprised that I genuinely enjoyed it after the debacle of TLJ. In particular I loved the way Rey was tempted by Palpatine in the finale. The idea that she would have to succumb to darkness and inherit the throne as the only way to save her friends was exactly the kind of temptation ROTJ should have had for Luke.

I hope I can enjoy it. Abrams does not have a good track record. So far I have seen 3 of his movies and I have the same felling about all of them. Good idea, bad execution. Star Trek blundered (great cast and great writing of dialog that is true to the Characters, but horrible story). Star Trek Into Darkness fell down a pit (seriously how do you rip off the best Trek film and do it so badly and cringeworthy). TFA was too much an homage to the OT. He cheated the ending by not giving one and doing his stupid mystery box story telling. Now the reports of TROS are that it is even more loving of on the OT while at the same time full of nonsense. I’m going to try and watch it the first time without thinking about editing it. But from the sounds of it, this might be the movie the most in need of major edits (a title I currently give to AOTC). But can it be saved by fan edit? But the reviews so far are just showing that even if I might like the ending on paper (the leaked plot sounded pretty good to me) the way Abrams executes and edits it might be the problem. No one should give him a beloved franchise project again. He f***s it up every time. Every f***ing time. I’m pissed at him and I haven’t even seen it yet. But I blame him because this has Abrams toxic touch all over it. I just hope I like it more then some others have. But considering I think that TFA is the worst of the 8 previous saga films, I don’t have much hope. Still, I love the characters and I hope someone put in enough good stuff that it can be edited into something enjoyable. I don’t know when I am going to see it. Maybe Sunday or maybe later over the holiday break. I was excited to see it, now I’m not. I think I’ll read the spoilers again.

The only things I didn’t like were things necessitated by the previous movies. In other words I’m not thrilled with much of the now-established lore, but I thought this movie made the best of those ideas. And I’m not so bound to ROTJ that I mind any violation of its supposed finality (which obviously bugs other fans). I look forward to your assessment! I kept waiting to be annoyed or have those “oh please!” moments but they just never came. I honestly enjoyed it as a legitimate piece of Star Wars, and having mulled it over for 24 hours I’m even more convinced of this (unlike TFA where I was all “I liked it, but…” and TLJ where I was all “that made no sense…”). For me this is my 3rd favourite behind ANH and TESB which will probably cost me some friends!

There are probably good technical reasons to dislike the film, but I’m not well-versed in that stuff. There’s a LOT going on - it really doesn’t let up for a second and there’s lots of retconning, re-explaining, re-contextualising etc etc. But I liked it. It certainly re-legitimised its immediate predecessors - for me anyway. I will see it again of course and possibly reassess. I look forward to your views!

I liked it. In fact I was surprised that I genuinely enjoyed it after the debacle of TLJ. In particular I loved the way Rey was tempted by Palpatine in the finale. The idea that she would have to succumb to darkness and inherit the throne as the only way to save her friends was exactly the kind of temptation ROTJ should have had for Luke.

screams in the void said:

I watched Return Of The Jedi last night and caught something that I never gave much thought …when the Emperor tells Vader to go to the sanctuary moon and wait for Skywalker , he does not arrive on the moon until after nightfall .In the scene right after Vader has his talk with Palps ,the rebels land on Endor and a full day passes into night before Luke goes off to meet Vader . Was there that much travel time between Death Star 2 and Endor via shuttle ? Or did Vader go off and meditate for a while before departing ? I guess this could be open to a lot of speculation .

Also Luke says to Leia “Vader’s here - on this moon…” when Vader hasn’t landed yet.

Maybe there are several Vader clones and that’s what TROS will reveal…

theprequelsrule said:

Shopping Maul said:

I always beat this particular Tauntaun but I think the Force went off the rails in ROTJ. Yes, in TESB Yoda was a moralising grouch, but that didn’t necessarily give him the final word. Gary Kurtz indicated that the original story idea for ROTJ would have had Luke wandering off into the sunset via a bittersweet ending. To me that indicates a possible sense of ambiguity for Luke - perhaps a blurring of the divide between the so-called Light and Dark. In ROTJ a simple loss of temper is a path to eternal damnation, which I think is childish. ROTJ also added the genetic component (via the ludicrous shoehorning of Leia into the ‘other hope’ role) which in turn led to Midichlorians and virgin births. The Force was, in Lucas’ words back in the day, “space-Yoga”, and could easily have transcended Yoda’s take on things after TESB.

I believe it was bittersweet because the triumvirate of Luke, Han, and Leia were going to split up. Han dies, Leia becomes leader of the New Republic, and Luke goes off to create a New Jedi Order. But there is nothing to indicate that Luke’s Jedi would be taught a new take on The Force. And again the idea that anger leads to the darkside is first made explicit in TESB, not ROTJ.

You’re right in that this doesn’t necessarily indicate a shift in the ‘anger’ position re the Force, but it does point (however vaguely) to a stronger film with a less binary sense of victory. Kurtz was talking as someone who wanted to carry on the more philosophical and characterisation-heavy attitude of TESB (which, as a fan, I was hoping for), so going on that alone we can assume more depth with regard to Luke’s outcome with Vader and Palpatine - even if only by virtue of stronger dialogue and better direction. I see Yoda’s stance in TESB as more of a ‘don’t lose your focus’ type of thing rather than ‘any violence whatsoever is bad’. I still think it’s ROTJ that dumbs it all down to ‘be nice to daddy or you’ll turn evil’.

I always beat this particular Tauntaun but I think the Force went off the rails in ROTJ. Yes, in TESB Yoda was a moralising grouch, but that didn’t necessarily give him the final word. Gary Kurtz indicated that the original story idea for ROTJ would have had Luke wandering off into the sunset via a bittersweet ending. To me that indicates a possible sense of ambiguity for Luke - perhaps a blurring of the divide between the so-called Light and Dark. In ROTJ a simple loss of temper is a path to eternal damnation, which I think is childish. ROTJ also added the genetic component (via the ludicrous shoehorning of Leia into the ‘other hope’ role) which in turn led to Midichlorians and virgin births. The Force was, in Lucas’ words back in the day, “space-Yoga”, and could easily have transcended Yoda’s take on things after TESB.

screams in the void said:

^best 3 films of all time !

‘smiley face’ (sorry dude, can’t seem to emoji from here)!

theprequelsrule said:

DominicCobb said:

theprequelsrule said:

DominicCobb said:

like too how the EU novel Labyrinth of Evil sets up that Anakin has basically been, unbeknownst to Obi-wan, slowly but surely tapping into the power of the dark side as a means to help win the Clone Wars. What if Anakin’s whole goal was to end the war, and really kinda thought he was a good man, trying to bring peace to the galaxy (words that ring hollow in ROTS as is), which is why he agreed to quickly wipe out the Jedi so that they wouldn’t quickly fall into another war? It’s funny because you can see that’s sort of Lucas’s intent but it ends up as subtext, at best.

We are never shown the implied addictive character of the Darkside are we? You start to use it because you feel you need the power, but in the end it masters you. There is an implication that it is a malevolent force that twists it’s users to pure evil even if they had noble goals. Palpatine is the end result of the process; power for power’s sake.

Yes, that’s exactly how it was portrayed in the OT and then Lucas dropped the ball. Just look at the scene where Anakin kills Dooku - instead of instinctively killing him after unleashing his anger to best him, he has to be goaded into doing it after he’s already admitted that it’s not the right thing to do. So stupid.

Garbage acting and directing as well. Compare it to the scene it “rhymes with” in ROTJ and there is no comparison. The emotional impact and physical ferocity (man, is Luke pissed off!) in ROTJ are miles beyond the ROTS scene.

edit: forgot to add that the music in the ROTJ scene is much better too.

I disagree - I think Anakin’s fall made infinitely more sense. When Anakin hesitates to kill Dooku, Palpatine appeals to his sense of vengeance. He knows that Anakin is confused and immature and on an ethical knife’s edge, so he just gives a little push. What this does is place Anakin in the position of having done something he cannot walk away from, which in turn feeds his self-deception all the way through to finally betraying the Jedi. I’m not saying it was handled well, but at least we get a sense of manipulation, corruption, and some blurry ethical lines.

In ROTJ all Luke does is lose his temper when Vader threatens his sister. So what? How is that a path to the Dark Side when throwing the Emperor to his death is apparently a free pass to Jedi heaven?

It’s strictly unaltered OT for me - Star Wars '77, TESB '80, Conan the Barbarian '82…

DuracellEnergizer said:

Shopping Maul said:

Tack said:

I feel like ESB did more harm than good for Vader. I came across an article in an old issue of Famous Monsters of Filmland (around 1978) and it had a really interesting point about the code of honor which Vader seems to exhibit in the original Star Wars, and it read quite a bit of character into him that is easy to imagine being a reason for the spike of popularity he achieved between 1977 and 1980. I’ll try and post it if I can find it again. It made some interesting points.

Anyway, in Empire Strikes Back I feel like the nuance of Vader’s characterization was almost entirely lost. The constant killing of his subordinates (to a degree it almost becomes a running gag), the comparatively angry delivery of his lines versus the more soft-spoken delivery of the original, and the fact that his dialogue becomes considerably more blunt. He has his moments of greatness, certainly, but I feel like from the outset of development they were too far gone into making him over-the-top evil rather than the comparatively mysterious and intimidating figure he was in the original film.

I’m actually curious, does anyone else think this?

I like the transition from ANH to TESB because it sets Vader up as a creature of pure rage. He’s kind of out of his element in ANH - being on the Death Star with Tarkin and everything - but in TESB he’s running his own show. And yes, the strangulations become something of a running joke but it’s a pretty sick joke - and not something you can really come back from. This guy kills people who piss him off! Which for me really fuels the horror of the revelation at the film’s climax. Had Vader been more sympathetic, we might not have been so floored by that iconic reveal. The fact that Vader is not a good guy lends weight to Luke’s (and our own) shock IMO.

Unfortunately, it runs counter to the notion that this is a man who “still has good in him.”

Not at the time. The ‘still has good in him’ thing was a ROTJ addition.

Tack said:

I feel like ESB did more harm than good for Vader. I came across an article in an old issue of Famous Monsters of Filmland (around 1978) and it had a really interesting point about the code of honor which Vader seems to exhibit in the original Star Wars, and it read quite a bit of character into him that is easy to imagine being a reason for the spike of popularity he achieved between 1977 and 1980. I’ll try and post it if I can find it again. It made some interesting points.

Anyway, in Empire Strikes Back I feel like the nuance of Vader’s characterization was almost entirely lost. The constant killing of his subordinates (to a degree it almost becomes a running gag), the comparatively angry delivery of his lines versus the more soft-spoken delivery of the original, and the fact that his dialogue becomes considerably more blunt. He has his moments of greatness, certainly, but I feel like from the outset of development they were too far gone into making him over-the-top evil rather than the comparatively mysterious and intimidating figure he was in the original film.

I’m actually curious, does anyone else think this?

I like the transition from ANH to TESB because it sets Vader up as a creature of pure rage. He’s kind of out of his element in ANH - being on the Death Star with Tarkin and everything - but in TESB he’s running his own show. And yes, the strangulations become something of a running joke but it’s a pretty sick joke - and not something you can really come back from. This guy kills people who piss him off! Which for me really fuels the horror of the revelation at the film’s climax. Had Vader been more sympathetic, we might not have been so floored by that iconic reveal. The fact that Vader is not a good guy lends weight to Luke’s (and our own) shock IMO.

TavorX said:

I overall have little issue with how Luke in TLJ was portrayed. From my perspective, Luke always had this fear of losing his closet friends whom largely became his family. It’s what prompted him to leave Dagobah and head straight into the Bespin death trap. In ROTJ, he lost his cool whenever Vader mentioned Leia. His core fear is losing anyone tragically and he tends to act irrationally whenever that possibility arises. Therefore, when it came to Ben Solo, and how seemingly one Padawan could ruin the peace he worked so hard to create, he reverted back to his instinctual fear.
You could say he should grow into a wise sage that never succumbs to those kind of emotions but I like to think he held onto those humanly flaws. It would had been very bizarre if he had actually killed Ben, but the good in Luke that is always within him stops that aggression that plagued Vader.

It’s not the Luke many of us wanted to see post-Jedi, but that’s pretty much one of the few RJ choices I could get behind. I still, however, view TLJ as a terrible middle act overall.

I liked the vibe of it (and unlike many fans I loved the ‘Luke wasn’t really there’ showdown/death) but I still concur with other fans that the idea of murdering Kylo (however fleeting) was off. I’d have preferred something like Luke being locked in a sense of prophecy where the only outcome he could foresee was killing Kylo in the future. If they shared such a vision it would feed Kylo’s paranoia about uncle Luke wanting to kill him whilst justifying Luke’s going AWOL to seek better answers.

I know…wrong thread…

Isn’t ‘Art’ just some guy’s name…?

UncutIsSuperior said:

I’ve just recently got this idea. It’s the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy in the style of the Original Theatrical Versions of the Original Trilogy. It’s basically a what-if scenario with the Prequels, where the CGI effects would be either removed or replaced with stop-motion effects and/or puppets. I’m not sure if this is even possible, but I think it’s one hell of a concept.

I like the idea in theory. I used to ponder the notion of a PT being made in a 50s/60s style, so that it feels as if it had been made 20 years earlier than the OT and makes for a logical viewing experience. Commercial suicide of course…

DrDre said:

Hillarious!!! George Lucas reacts to the TROS trailer (Deepfake):

https://youtu.be/_MuxVqB3I7E

That’s the single greatest thing I’ve seen since the internet was invented!!!

oojason said:

‘Star Wars: the changing face of Sy Snootles & the Rebo band’ - article from 2016:-

https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/star-wars/38603/star-wars-the-changing-face-of-sy-snootles-the-rebo-band
 

The article features videos for both the original Lapti Nek and the SE’s Jedi Rocks, as well as a BTS type video of ‘Fancy Man’ - and some other intriguing info on the differing versions of the song that were recorded (and allegedly why one version was used over the other…), ILM’s creature workshop, the later CGI work for the SE, quotes from Lucas, and more…
 

That was really interesting. I don’t know if this has been mentioned (I haven’t gone through the whole thread) but Lapti Nek always reminded me of the Bee Gees’ ‘You Should Be Dancing’. If I had the know-how I’d do a mash-up…!

Booman said:

Mocata said:

The original cantina bartender voice also makes me laugh.

“OI! We don’t serve their koind 'ea!”

“What?”

“Ya droids, they’ll have to wait oit-side, they don’t wantem 'ea.”

I love how genuinely confused and bewildered Luke sounds when he responds to him, it’s like he’s never seen an australian in his entire life.

Slightly off-thread, but I love the footage (Empire of Dreams?) where someone’s reading Yoda’s lines in a British accent to Luke when he’s about to take off for Bespin - “if you choose the quick and easy path you will find it’s all a big load of bollocks…” (I’m exaggerating for effect of course!)

SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

Shopping Maul said:

SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

I’m not sure if this counts as a “small detail” but I totally used the title of this thread in my video:

https://youtu.be/dYb8ezhwuk8

Harrison Ford does it even more blatantly while Leia is saying “Captain, being held by you isn’t quite enough to get me excited” in TESB.

Yes I know…did you finish watching the video? Or are you being sarcastic?

oojason said:

SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

I’m not sure if this counts as a “small detail” but I totally used the title of this thread in my video:

https://youtu.be/dYb8ezhwuk8

You big meany-head! 😉

I put the hyphen in the wrong place? Damn! 😄

Ha ha, no I’m just an idiot! Sorry! (Actually, my wife distracted me at the very last moment whilst watching your clip so, um, egg on face)…

SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

I’m not sure if this counts as a “small detail” but I totally used the title of this thread in my video:

https://youtu.be/dYb8ezhwuk8

Harrison Ford does it even more blatantly while Leia is saying “Captain, being held by you isn’t quite enough to get me excited” in TESB.

I say start with Star Wars '77 because it is the purest expression of Star Wars there is. We often forget that this was the first of everything - the Force, the lightsabers, the alien cantinas etc etc etc. I see the saga as a kind of wheel with SW '77 as the hub in its centre. Everything flows from this wonderful moment in 1977 and I think it would be cool for a child to experience it the way we did. Then, with her imagination tingling (assuming she likes the movie!), you can give her TESB, and then ROTJ and beyond…

Back in 1980 I didn’t notice transparent Speeders or repeated set corridors - nor did I care that I never saw the shuttle Vader referred to. All I saw was total awesomeness.

Now of course I can see the rough edges. I can see the genius of how the Hoth battle was achieved, or how the sets were cleverly designed to give the impression of greater scope and distance. Lucas calls them ‘faults’ - I call them craft.

I’m a conservative on this point. I think the films should have been left alone. They are (as Gary Kurtz said) a product of their time, and no amount of tinkering will make them otherwise. The SE were a cute novelty in 1997 and should have remained such - a bonus disc to compliment a stunning remaster of the theatrical OT in whatever format.

If Paul McCartney decided to remix the Beatles’ catalogue with all-new digital sounds, tweaks to the songs, Katy Perry on a couple of tracks etc etc, and then try to bury the originals, he would probably have to go into hiding - and with good reason. This is how I see the Star Wars issue. The sight of Lucas banging on about ‘mythological motifs’ at a 40th anniversary celebration of a film he won’t let us see anymore made my blood boil.

So no, I’m in the unaltered TESB camp.

I see them playing a card game called ‘absolutes’…