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Shopping Maul

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Post
#1273524
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

The thing is these arcs could have been achieved without diminishing the characters. For instance Han could have been using his old skills/contacts to recruit potential resistance allies. That way TFA could still have him separated from Leia and acting somewhat like the Solo of old, but with noble purpose.

Similarly Luke could have inadvertently ‘created’ Kylo Ren through the training process but, instead of giving up in despair, could have realised that the old ways were no longer adequate. His entire ‘hobo’ routine with Rey could have been a ruse - something like Yoda’s initial test/demeanour in TESB - that was designed to push Rey into seeking her own destiny rather than being trained in the traditional way. The ‘subversion’ could’ve been at the finale when Rey (and the audience) realises that Luke was guiding her all along. That way we get a subversive hobo-Luke without sacrificing his arc as completed in ROTJ. Plus it would explain why there was a map…

Oh, and Leia’s ‘Jedi moment’ should’ve been lifting those rocks for Rey and demonstrating that Rey still has much to learn.

Post
#1272073
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I wish Force Ghosts had never been ‘explained’ (ie “an old friend has come back from the netherworld…etc etc”). That way it would all be ambiguous and we could see it however we wish.

BTW back in '83 I thought Anakin was appearing to Luke in Tatooine farmer apparel (it never occurred to me that Lucas intended Obi Wan’s desert wear to be actual Jedi garb!) - a kind of symbolic return to his pre-Darkside humble beginnings rather than a demonstration of Jedi enlightenment.

Post
#1271485
Topic
THE FORCE AWAKENS (Episode VII) Discussion *SPOILER THREAD* See OP For Trailer/Teaser Links--Trailer is out!
Time

Hal 9000 said:

This is another benefit to the Restructured idea.

The base simply drains “the Sun” and fires upon targets. No awkward questions about it’s mobility are raised.

It seems like the filmmakers knew SKB was a bad idea but they decided to do it anyway, moving as quickly through it as possible.

But it would have to be mobile to drain another sun. That’s what’s so ludicrous. Let’s apply SK to ep 4 and say it was about to destroy Alderaan at Tarkin’s behest. Would Motti (or whoever) have to go through a process to choose a worthy system to destroy in order to charge up and then destroy Alderaan? In other words the Empire/FO is committed to destroying two systems every time. “Let’s destroy Alderaan”. “Okay, well we need to find an appropriate sun to drain - any other systems in need of punishing since we’re stuck with a two-for-one deal?”

Post
#1271482
Topic
THE FORCE AWAKENS (Episode VII) Discussion *SPOILER THREAD* See OP For Trailer/Teaser Links--Trailer is out!
Time

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

I saw a post on imdb that really cracked me up. The poster (whose handle is ‘bobsutherby’) points out that by draining the sun, the SK Base consequently kills every planet in that system anyway. So all the base needs to do is drain stars!

Which begs the question (this is me now) - how does the FO choose which system it will destroy in order to power up to destroy another? Does it wait until at least 2 systems are in transgression, or does it have to choose stars with uninhabited or no planets?

I thought the IMDB forums were deleted after they closed them?

No, it was in the review section, but the guy decided to forgo a full review and just do a post about SK.

Post
#1271371
Topic
THE FORCE AWAKENS (Episode VII) Discussion *SPOILER THREAD* See OP For Trailer/Teaser Links--Trailer is out!
Time

I saw a post on imdb that really cracked me up. The poster (whose handle is ‘bobsutherby’) points out that by draining the sun, the SK Base consequently kills every planet in that system anyway. So all the base needs to do is drain stars!

Which begs the question (this is me now) - how does the FO choose which system it will destroy in order to power up to destroy another? Does it wait until at least 2 systems are in transgression, or does it have to choose stars with uninhabited or no planets?

Post
#1271081
Topic
Proof of Lucas’ revisionism in Rinzler’s making-of book?
Time

rodneyfaile said:

At this point, I have to adopt the opinion that Lucas had been overwhelmingly successful in rewriting history. The vast majority of the public have no idea multiple versions of Star Wars even exist. Most believe Lucas wrote every single word and designed every ship and costume, personally developed new technology to create the special effects, and had the entire intact vision all in his head in advance. I’m wondering how long before Lucas gets credit for humming the theme to John Williams for him to write.

The sad part is, Lucas does deserve so much admiration for creating this universe and not giving up as he fought to get it made. Star Wars is an amazing piece of imagination. Sharing the creative process with those under his leadership in no way diminishes his achievement. There is more than enough to go around. I just hate that some have had their work erased by the special editions.

So in my opinion, Lucas has won. Only Disney/Lucasfilm can do anything about it now. They could release the unaltered Original Trilogy in a new definitive set and produce their own new documentary. I’d go to the theater just to watch a new Star War documentary. Sadly, I do not think anyone is interested.

Maybe what we really need is a fan made documentary to go along with the fan made despecialized versions. I’d donate to a crowd funding for such a documentary.

You’re right - it seems Lucas has succeeded in rewriting history. I work with a lot of people in their 20s and early 30s, and they enjoy Star Wars to varying degrees. When I mention the ‘unaltered versions’ and bring them up to speed on how the SE came about, they’re either unaware of this notion or don’t really care anyway.

Of course as an OT fan from back in the day I’m less than thrilled about this (hence my being on this site) - but I didn’t realise just how angry I was about it until I saw the 40th anniversary celebrations on Youtube and watched Lucas banging on about mythological motifs and the usual hoo-haa to Warwick Davis - while no-one pulled him up on the fact that the very film they were celebrating no longer f##king exists! It’s absurd. Celebrate in 2037 or whatever year the SE technically reaches 40 if that’s how it is to be.

I’ve mentioned this in other posts but as I watched this clip, the next Youtube suggestion was a small 40th anniversary podcast with Gary Kurtz that actually celebrated and discussed the film in question. In fact I believe one of my first posts here was in response to that interview, and I semi-seriously suggested that a Gary Kurtz commentary track for Despecialized would be awesome. I stand by that assertion. RIP Gary.

Post
#1270782
Topic
Proof of Lucas’ revisionism in Rinzler’s making-of book?
Time

I see Star Wars in its prime as being like a rock band. Take Keith out of the Stones, Joe Perry out of Aerosmith, Bruce Dickinson out of Iron Maiden, Bon Scott out of ACDC etc etc and it’s easy to see that a band (or film) is so much more than one person - regardless of whether they’re the main founder or creative nucleus. ROTJ is, to me, like the third album of band where the lead guitarist and drummer have quit (or been fired) and the record company has demanded more hits and insisted on a pop-producer and more synthesisers.

The ST is a reunion tour with a couple of the original members and all-new songs co-written by Mark Ronson to make sure they sound like the hits of yesteryear.

Post
#1270427
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Valheru_84 said:

nl0428 said:

Valheru_84 said:

Oh I’m very interested to see how the train wreck comes to a final rest so I can look at the mangled mess and move on, knowing that it’s finally stopped and I can actually start forgetting about it. Bit hard to be a Star Wars fan at the moment and not see all the usual stuff about the next episode and I guess you could say I have a morbid curiosity.

What I have zero interest in is paying to see IX at the cinemas or reading up on theories and additional content on the ST, especially if it concerns “Reylo”.

I’m sorry you don’t like the sequel trilogy, but I am a fan of the trilogy. If you don’t like The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, then you don’t need to go see Episode IX then. I hated Michael Bay’s Transformers movies, so I stopped going to see them. The more you watch, the more movies will be made by giving them your money.

No problem, the fact you like it is fine though and all I was saying is that I don’t understand how you expect Kylo and Rey to still get together after that chance was missed in TLJ. Rey would have to deviate massively from her current character arc (if you can call it that) and be ok with all the atrocities and blood on Kylo’s hands.

I did like TFA originally but it required the next movie or two to do a lot of explaining and that simply didn’t happen and as a result TFA becomes a pretty mediocre movie itself. So yeah, I definitely won’t be paying for a ticket to IX as there is literally no point for me.

With a somewhat heavy heart I absolutely agree with this. Despite some silly plot contrivances and the conga-line of Death Stars, I really liked TFA - but this was absolutely riding on the notion that JJ had answers to all the implied questions (which in turn would connect the new saga to the OT in a profound way). Now the thing looks rather vacuous. I’m genuinely curious about IX but not for the right reasons.

Post
#1270240
Topic
Rey and Jedi Training
Time

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

Creox said:
Here’s a thought. Perhaps her and Kylo are the epitome of force users. She’s not a Mary sue but the last conduit for the force, light and dark. She is the first to access and use the full potential of it?

I’m not sure what you mean by this, but if Rey and Kylo are simply lucky enough to be imbued with all this power, it becomes rather uninteresting if there are no consequences.

What do you mean no consequences? Who said that?

And again it diminishes Luke. It’s as if the saga is saying that Jedi greatness isn’t that difficult to attain after all, and that Luke was simply a lousy candidate.

Well first of all, Yoda does actually say outright that Luke is a lousy candidate. Second, powers =/= greatness.

Well the first six films - however ham-fisted in the telling - make a huge deal about training and how the wrong mind-set can have disastrous consequences when it comes to striving for Jedi-hood. The OT is about Luke’s growth from naive farmboy who craves adventure to a Zen master who wants to redeem his fallen father. And he suffers tremendous failures along the way. Anakin’s story charts that of a child prodigy whose emotional issues lead to ruin, despite his incredible talent.

Rey is just super-powerful. That’s it. No anger-issues or barriers or emotional/ego pitfalls from having lived like Conan the Barbarian on Jakku. She just nails it every time, and over two days! Sure, she’s sad about her parents, but it proves no hinderance whatsoever to her progress as an instant Jedi.

You’re missing the point. Rey’s goal in the story is not to become a super powerful Jedi.

Yeah, but that makes it even worse! What happened to “to be a Jedi takes the deepest commitment, the most serious mind”? Again, this just diminishes what has gone before.

So power does equal greatness in this trilogy (so far at least).

In what possible way is that true? Kylo is clearly very powerful but is he a great Jedi?

He doesn’t want to be a great Jedi. Kylo wants to be Vader, and he has worked hard at being such. What’s absurd is that his ‘equal in the light’ didn’t have to train or give the whole thing a second thought in order to be his equal.

Meanwhile Kylo is the same angry psycho that he was in TFA.

I mean, I guess if you reducing characters to flippantly described personality traits it’s easy to see why you’d misunderstand what’s going on.

Rian Johnson stated that he saw both Rey and Kylo as the protagonists of the ST. And they essentially form two halves of one whole. It is stated that they both have potential the likes of which haven’t been seen before, but they both end up doing very different things with it. If you want to talk about consequence, look at Ben, and what his desire for the power of the dark side as left him with. Whereas Rey is the opposite, she didn’t want the power, but it was thrust upon her. She just wants a family, while Ben struggles to cut ties with his the best he can. In a way, you almost have to look at their stories as a unit, and how they compare and contrast.

Ultimately to me it’s weird to see people complain about rehashed elements that to me are mostly minor window dressing stuff (basic plot similarities and such) while simultaneously complaining that more important things (like character arcs) aren’t being rehashed. Well, to me, we’ve already had two trilogies where the story is that the main character has had to learn discipline in gaining their powers, one where it goes right, one where it goes wrong. I like how in this trilogy we’re getting something different.

Yes, Yoda did denounce Luke as a candidate, and Luke proved him wrong. That’s the beauty of Luke’s arc.

Unfortunately if you ask me this is where the OT slightly falters, as the gap from Luke initially proving Yoda right and making a big mistake to Luke being a wizened Jedi knight is not really covered. Hopefully IX sticks the landing better than ROTJ.

I absolutely agree re ROTJ, and I feel the same about the new trilogy. The arcs you describe for Rey and Kylo above are cool in theory - just like Luke’s becoming a wizened Jedi in ROTJ - but it feels really half-baked. It’s like the writers are just throwing ideas out there willy nilly and letting the fans fill the gaps and write the lore themselves (which is exactly what we had to do when Luke suddenly required no more training in ROTJ or when Leia was suddenly ‘the other’). I think this trilogy would be infinitely better if they’d plotted it out first rather than just free-styling ideas.

But the Force thing is my own beef. I get that many fans don’t mind the Force having godlike agency, or powers just being easily acquired by anyone. I just prefer the TESB vibe and think that a reasonable (though not necessarily constrained dogmatically) adherence to this would’ve created a more consistent SW universe.

Post
#1270159
Topic
Rey and Jedi Training
Time

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

Creox said:
Here’s a thought. Perhaps her and Kylo are the epitome of force users. She’s not a Mary sue but the last conduit for the force, light and dark. She is the first to access and use the full potential of it?

I’m not sure what you mean by this, but if Rey and Kylo are simply lucky enough to be imbued with all this power, it becomes rather uninteresting if there are no consequences.

What do you mean no consequences? Who said that?

And again it diminishes Luke. It’s as if the saga is saying that Jedi greatness isn’t that difficult to attain after all, and that Luke was simply a lousy candidate.

Well first of all, Yoda does actually say outright that Luke is a lousy candidate. Second, powers =/= greatness.

Well the first six films - however ham-fisted in the telling - make a huge deal about training and how the wrong mind-set can have disastrous consequences when it comes to striving for Jedi-hood. The OT is about Luke’s growth from naive farmboy who craves adventure to a Zen master who wants to redeem his fallen father. And he suffers tremendous failures along the way. Anakin’s story charts that of a child prodigy whose emotional issues lead to ruin, despite his incredible talent.

Rey is just super-powerful. That’s it. No anger-issues or barriers or emotional/ego pitfalls from having lived like Conan the Barbarian on Jakku. She just nails it every time, and over two days! Sure, she’s sad about her parents, but it proves no hinderance whatsoever to her progress as an instant Jedi. So power does equal greatness in this trilogy (so far at least). Meanwhile Kylo is the same angry psycho that he was in TFA.

Yes, Yoda did denounce Luke as a candidate, and Luke proved him wrong. That’s the beauty of Luke’s arc.

Post
#1270126
Topic
Rey and Jedi Training
Time

Creox said:
Here’s a thought. Perhaps her and Kylo are the epitome of force users. She’s not a Mary sue but the last conduit for the force, light and dark. She is the first to access and use the full potential of it?

I’m not sure what you mean by this, but if Rey and Kylo are simply lucky enough to be imbued with all this power, it becomes rather uninteresting if there are no consequences. And again it diminishes Luke. It’s as if the saga is saying that Jedi greatness isn’t that difficult to attain after all, and that Luke was simply a lousy candidate.

People keep saying that the powers come easily and that Luke’s attitude was the problem. I don’t buy this. You don’t get to become Martina Navratilova or Arnold Schwarzenegger just because you have self-confidence or a good sense of decency. Football teams don’t win games merely because there’s a mystical ‘football energy’ that magically chose them that particular day. Sports would be deeply uninteresting if that were the case.

I get that many fans don’t mind the ‘willy nilly Force powers’ vibe of the new series. I personally prefer the subtlety of the OT version - that Jedi abilities are rare and nuanced and absolutely have to be earned.

Post
#1270046
Topic
Rey and Jedi Training
Time

The Force is space-magic and therefore subjective. You could have a story where Rey treats the Starkiller Base like a yo-yo and hurls it into a black hole, and no-one could truly say you were ‘wrong’. Size matters not right?

The Force has been bent and morphed throughout the saga, but for me the best interpretation is in TESB. I know deleted scenes don’t count, but they do give an insight into the writer/director’s intentions at the time. There’s a moment that was cut (but made it into the comics and novelisations) where Yoda tosses a metal bar into the air and Luke attempts to slice it with his Lightsaber. He misses entirely, and pants “I can’t, not after running miles with you on my back…so tired”. Yoda responds with “the bar would be in seven pieces were you a Jedi”.

Later Luke has better luck with the test, severing the bar into four pieces. “Much progress you make young one” says Yoda. “Stronger do you grow”. But Luke’s not satisfied. “Let me try again, I can do seven. I’m angry enough to…” and Yoda’s like “no, no, anger, fear, aggression - the path to the dark side are they…” etc etc.

The trajectory here is clear (and I think TESB supports this even without these scenes). Training is required - discipline, resolve, clarity, purity of intention, physical strength/prowess. This is why Luke is special in the saga, even when he is still a novice. Becoming a Jedi is hard, really hard. Luke learns the hard way that his piloting skills and naive confidence/optimism are not enough - not by a longshot. He’s gone to Dagobah expecting straight-up warrior training and discovers that he has to become a freaking Buddhist! That’s why Han can’t be a Jedi, or Lando or Boba Fett or any random dude/dudette with fighting skills and self-confidence.

If the stories stray too far from this central premise - that Jedi proficiency is difficult and unique and riddled with potential failure - then not only does the Force become rather trite but the journey of Luke Skywalker (and by association the tremendous amount of personal investment in him during the OT) is greatly diminished.

I get that the idea is Rey has fastracked the power side of things through the harshness of her life on Jakku. But I think the writers went too far in having her pull mind tricks and levitation and kicking the crap out of Jedi Masters after two days. I can’t fault your post - like I said it’s subjective space-magic - but I think more thoughtful writing and a better sense of nuance could have made Rey’s journey different and unique without diminishing what has gone before.

Post
#1269745
Topic
Open letter to Lucas in October 1980 to release Star Wars on Home Video
Time

That’s really fascinating - thank you! My first copy of Star Wars was taped off the TV (with the ads carefully spliced out) circa 1982, so I guess that makes me a pirate. Of course the minute the films became officially available (as far as I was aware anyway) in 1992 I snatched 'em up and George got his cut.

This makes me think of the anger I felt whilst watching the Star Wars 40th anniversary celebrations on Youtube. There was George banging on about ‘mythological motifs’ to great applause while no-one dared call him out on the fact that the very film they were celebrating no longer exists.

Meanwhile in the upper right corner of my Youtube feed was a SW 40th anniversary interview with Gary Kurtz that had a paltry few hits and certainly none of the fanfare of the ‘official’ celebrations. But it had ten times the heart. Had it been up to Gary, we’d all be enjoying bluray (and I daresay 4K) versions of the '77 film right now. It’s like poetry I guess…

Post
#1269477
Topic
The original Marvel Star Wars series
Time

SilverWook said:

Refresh my memory, who cancelled the book, Marvel or Lucasfilm?

I don’t actually recall - here is a great interview with Jo Duffy if you’re interested. I had a quick flick through to see if she specifies who canned the series (I haven’t listened to this in a while and my memory’s fuzzy) but from what little I gleaned it seems both parties were eager to cancel. She says they were given half an issue to wrap up the saga they’d been working on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVU0Dz9t1kQ

Edit - at about 17.45 she says it was Marvel, not Lucasfilm who cancelled the comic!

Post
#1269435
Topic
The original Marvel Star Wars series
Time

SilverWook said:

Wasn’t there some hurt feelings over a storyline Lucasfilm ordered changes to? Or was that someone else’s plot?

I’m not sure. Jo Duffy says Lucasfilm got rather imperious after RoTJ (in terms of what characters/concepts were allowed) but, beyond the suddenness of the cancellation, I’m not aware of particular plot issues. I do know JM DeMatteis had issues with the last page of his story (the one with Cody Sun-childe) which was why he was under a pseudonym when they changed it.

Post
#1268921
Topic
What is your personal canon?
Time

DuracellEnergizer said:

  • Tales of the Jedi
  • Star Wars
  • Original Marvel Star Wars (issues 1-38)
  • Any of the Archie Goodwin & Al Williamson comic strips which don’t include/mention elements from TESB+
  • Splinter of the Mind’s Eye

Yep, I’m pretty much a SW '77 purist now.

This is pretty awesome. In your SW universe Vader and Luke’s dad are separate guys (and Obi Wan is by extension a truthful guy), Luke can still be attracted to Leia without the cringe element, and Jabba is the weird yellow guy who Han and Chewie rescued from the stone-mites on Orleon!

I can’t give up TESB (it’s my favourite film of all time alongside Conan '82) but I have total respect for your canon.

Post
#1267675
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

RogueLeader said:

ShoppingMaul, and this question is open to anyone, what are ways that you would like for them to approach Rey’s character in IX that would help address the issues you’ve had with her in 7 & 8?

This is going to seem like a major copout but I honestly don’t know. The thing is, and this isn’t necessarily bad, I have absolutely no idea what’s in store for the next episode! And Rey is what she is. It would be silly to go back on what has been established (ie suddenly deciding she was Obi Wan’s niece or something equally dumb).

If you look at what speculations there were in 1980 surrounding Luke, there was so much to wonder about. Was Vader lying? Was Obi Wan lying? Would Luke turn to the Dark Side? Who was the ‘other’? It was a crazy time to be a fan.

I’m genuinely curious about ep IX but for entirely different reasons - mainly the fact that I honestly can’t imagine what’s left to be told!

By the way, to be clear, I don’t hate Rey at all and I love Daisy’s portrayal. I think all the characters are great. I just think the writing has been disappointing and an opportunity to really build on the existing lore and make something deep and significant has been squandered for mystery boxes and pretty visuals.

All I really can hope for is that ep IX ties this trilogy together in a way that gives it some weight, rather than just being a bunch of cool visuals/ideas glued together in a vaguely Star Wars way.

Sorry for the copout answer!

Post
#1267651
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

RogueLeader said:

While I do think Rey is suffering from emotional costs because of her growing abilities, I also believe there is this assumption that the Force is a static, unchanging thing, despite the idea the Force has changed or is changing in this new trilogy that is different than how it was in the previous trilogies. To me, this makes it unfair to even compare the protagonists on the basis of Force powers when the Force “awakening” is a plot point in these new movies.

I guess this is where I part company with many other fans. I don’t want the Force to be ‘sentient’ any more than I find it logical for electricity or gravity to be self-aware. I’ve always considered ‘balance’ or the Force ‘awakening’ (and by extension any kind of ‘Chosen One’ schtik) to be human/Jedi constructs - a kind of anthropomorphic way for the Jedi to account for things.

I don’t mind that Rey has huge potential, or that her upbringing fast-tracked certain aspects of her growth. It makes sense for example that she’d be more of a natural survivalist than Luke ever was - hence better fighting instincts and a heightened knack for sensing peril. But the Force (or using the Force) is more complicated than that. It’s the difference between having a natural ability and being an Olympic champion, or being great at Yoga but wanting to be a Zen master. Luke though he had it all licked when he went to Dagobah. Instead he discovered that being a ‘great warrior’ had little to do with being a Jedi, and that his emotional immaturity was a huge impediment. Ditto Anakin who, despite being potentially the greatest Jedi ever on genetic grounds alone, was on a one-way trip to complete failure as a result of not mastering his deeper emotions.

In the OT and PT the Force is all about emotions and mastering one’s deeper drives and instincts, honing one’s inner-self. That’s the beauty of it and that’s what separates mastering the Force from merely being good at kick-boxing or doing a mean bench-press. In the new series it’s like the latter. Rey merely blunders along and nails it all. There’s no downside, no emotional cost (beyond her not managing to make everyone else be as wonderful as she is), no threat of this survivalist barbarian-woman becoming a Sith, no moment where her unstoppable confidence is given pause in the face of a Force that is more complex than just ticking each skill-set on a spread-sheet.

I think it’s a shame because the idea of a ‘feral Jedi’ (and all the potential dangers that could entail) is absolutely fascinating in principle. Having some Conan-girl master the more aggressive aspects of the Force under the duress of a harsh environment, only to try to apply those skills in a discipline that requires complete inner-calm/balance and emotional clarity has endless scope for expanding the saga in a profound way. Instead it feels like JJ/Rian are just throwing the skills into the pot willy nilly and letting us fill the blanks for them.

Post
#1267638
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

In ANH and TESB, Luke had 1 failure using the force - lifting the X-wing. He did all the others the first time we see him try it (though not always on the first attempt, but that is the same with Rey). Luke stood his ground with Vader and several times drove him back. We didn’t really get to see the finish of Rey and Kylo’s first first fight because the breaking up of the planet separates them. The second time, they don’t actually fight, except while trying to grab the lightsaber, which breaks in two. So Rey hasn’t exactly had a string of unqualified successes. If you really watch both films, you can see her many failures. But if you are concentrating on her force use in saying she never failed, then you have to look at Luke and how he rarely ever failed either. At the end of TESB, Luke quickly goes from the horror of the revelation that Vader is his father to acceptance and then he gets a new hand and is smiling with Leia, who seems more upset than he is. At the end of TLJ, Rey, who was briefly elated by the success she and Chewy had in the air over Crait, is feeling dejected and wondering what the next step is. Luke is already executing a plan to rescue Han, but Rey has no plan. So yes, please delineate how Rey just has it so easy. I don’t see it that way and I fail to see how you can if you take into account all that we see on screen.

I don’t think doing a ‘tit for tat’ on Jedi abilities is fair for either side of the argument. The only Force ability on record (at the time of ANH) was ESP. Obi does a mind trick and senses the destruction of Alderaan. Luke learns a little ESP with the remote and then uses that technique at the film’s climax.

By this reading Rey is absolutely ‘fast-tracked’ in TFA. She gets Force visions, resists a mind-probe, does a mind trick, levitates a lightsaber, and finally defeats a veritable Sith Lord. Even in TESB Luke struggles to lift rocks and fails pretty much every test. In TLJ Rey kicks everyone’s ass (including Luke’s!) and levitates a mountainside.

That’s not the real problem here (given that the Force and associated abilities/powers evolved throughout the saga). The problem, for me and many others, is that the Force is/was depicted as having nuance and cost. Even Luke and Anakin had natural abilities - nothing like Rey’s massive portfolio but a similar principle - yet they still struggled greatly with the notion of Jedi attainment (which of course is the backbone of the saga). There were emotional and physical costs, the ever-looming threat of the Dark Side and the potential to fail and even bring more harm than good.

Rey has no struggle beyond being personally upset at some of the outcomes. Dark Side? No probs. Levitation? Got it. Kick mentor’s ass? You betcha! It’s just ‘Force on tap’ for this person.

Seriously, if Force abilities are so easily attained, shouldn’t Obi Wan have given Luke a crash course in Mind Tricks before he rushed off to deactivate the Tractor Beam?

Post
#1267128
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:
Look, the whole Force thing is as elastic as anyone wants it to be. I just think the reason so many fans are up in arms about Rey’s instant and consequence-free power levels is that the previous films greatly imply a deep and difficult learning curve with regards to the Force. Also, the OT has the Force (and Jedi) as something forgotten and elusive and even snickered at. If Force-powers really did pop up everywhere like the ST implies, surely someone like Vader wouldn’t have wielded the terrifying influence he did in TESB. Wouldn’t there be a reasonable number of Imperial officers who just happened to be pretty good at levitation or Force-choking (perhaps they saw Vader do it and learned it instantly like Rey did) that could defy Lord Vader’s many homicidal tantrums? No, Vader was the last personification of a forgotten art. It’s not like Admiral Ozzel could turn to his fellow officers and say “look, don’t worry about Vader. My kid Force-choked his teacher the other day. Anyone can do this s##t”.

Making the Force - which is/was the spiritual backbone of the series - something easily dealt with and more or less unlimited diminishes it and, by extension, Luke Skywalker’s journey.

Except that in ANH and TESB, we don’t see Luke having any real difficulty learning the force. No more than Rey does in TFA. Luke easily lifts his saber (without any lessons) and only has issues when he perceives the X-wing as too big to lift (and he did move it, just didn’t finish lifting it out). Rey does not just pick things up. She doesn’t show any force skills until Kylo tries to pull the location of BB-8 from her. Assuming that her ability with the force was there all along and just under used as with Luke and Anakin, she would be able to sense what he was doing and then she turned it back on him (not very successful at first). Then she used the mind trick on a stormtrooper and had to struggle to do it right. Not once did Rey just suddenly start doing something without Kylo teaching it to her, and rarely perfect the first time. In their lightsaber duel we see her using her extant fighting skills (as seen in the beginning of the film) and the Kylo says he can teach her that she needs to use the force. Well, thanks to him she had kind of figured that out and puts the pieces together and ends up whipping his injured ass. In TLJ when they both fight the room full of Praetorian guards, Kylo is pitted against more of them than she is. They both come out in the end, but Kylo had the tougher job. So no where does Rey just pull a force power out of her ass as Luke did in the Wampa cave and she does have a learning curve that pretty much matches Lukes the few times we see him learn something new.

So this idea that Luke had this huge learning curve to be able to actually do anything is a joke. It misrepresents the OT horribly. What is true is that Luke had doubts to overcome about just have far the force could take him (lifting an X-wing). And nowhere in the OT is it stated that the force is unique to a select few. The force is in everybody, but it only manifests itself strong enough for a few to become a Jedi. But those few can come from anywhere. The OT never gives us the lineage of any of the three people strong with the force (excluding Luke). In the PT it is implied that the Jedi find those who are strong with the force, train them, and as part of the code, they are celibate. So there is no lineage for them to continue. It is implied that Padme’s pregnancy is as bad or worse than their marriage in terms of violating the code. And when you think about what was revealed logically, the Jedi are weakening the light side by forbidding the strongest in the force from reproducing. They are so scared of the temptation of the dark side that they have walled themselves off and after a thousand generations, they are fooled and beaten by a Sith lord. Their ability to use the force had weakened. The PT is full of things the Jedi did wrong and in TLJ we have that put into words by a bitter Luke. Part of what Yoda admonished him would be to pass on what he learned of how the Jedi failed. Not to let the Jedi die, but for the new order to fix the flaws of the old.

I think that it is pretty clear that the endgame of IX is going to be the reestablishing of balance. How they do that is a mystery at the moment. But the ideas go back to ANH and Abrams and Johnson have been true to the original in every way I can see. This idea that Luke had such problems and had a steep learning curve just isn’t true to the OT. One thing I have found is that Lucas did not just use Samurai cinema as an inspiration, but actual samurai lore as inspiration. From that we can see that a young hotshot can rise up and defeat supposed great masters, but even that young hotshot will face increasing challenges and must always strive to improve. So learning to be a samurai is a never ending lesson meaning that becoming a Jedi is similarly a never ending lesson. So to get to where Yoda was literally takes a lifetime, but a young person can learn what they need to start that journey in a short time. But they need to continually seek to improve. So the long training Lucas always has talked about is true for all and never ends, but does not preclude those who start out high in skills.

Taking the fighting skills to another area, we are introduced to Rey as a fighter. She is already very far ahead of Luke in that area. As a skilled fighter, she would have already learned Ben’s first lesson - to let go your conscious self and act on instinct. That can be learned from a lot of physical activities. And when you really look at the stories of Luke, Anakin, and Rey; Rey is taking the same journey and has the same level of success as Luke. But instead of freeing the galaxy from the tyranny of Palpatine and the Sith, she is up against Kylo and the task of balancing the force. She isn’t fast tracked any more than Luke was. Both are on the Hero’s journey. I think the biggest problems OT fans are having is coming to terms with Luke, Han, and Leia being the Ben and Yoda side of this trilogy. This is the Rey, Finn, Poe trilogy like the PT was the Anakin, Padme, Obi-wan trilogy.

I strongly disagree that Rey is/was no more fastracked than Luke. TESB is entirely about Luke’s struggle and consequent failure. He goes to Yoda all guns blazing and is absolutely humbled. Rey nails everything without effort and suffers no failures at all.

For example, imagine how cool it would’ve been if Rey had lost to Kylo in TFA (perhaps he looks into her mind and, sensing something special, spares her life). This way she would have been shown that being a Jedi is about more than just kicking ass, that her rudimentary (and aggressive) survival skills pale next to the pure flow and finesse of a trained Force user. This would give her somewhere to go, much in the same way that Luke learned that being a Jedi was so much more than just fencing lessons from a ‘great warrior’.

Imagine how cool it would have been if Rey couldn’t lift the rocks in TLJ. She realises in that moment that for all her bluster about flying off and saving Kylo, she really has much to learn. When Leia lifts the rocks for her (a better Leia moment than the space-walk methinks) Rey sees firsthand that mastery will take time.

I don’t actually think Rey’s journey should necessarily reflect Luke’s. We don’t need a repeat here. As a fan I just prefer Lucas’ original ‘space yoga’ version of the Force over the PT’s ‘Chosen One/Midichlorian’ stuff and the ST’s ‘Force on tap for any Tom, Dick and Rey’ version. If the Force isn’t elusive and nuanced and largely unattainable, then it loses it’s uniqueness in the narrative.

When I was a kid I was absolutely drawn in by Luke’s struggle. What struck me so much in TESB, from an emotional standpoint, was that Luke was so alone in all this. He was a bit like Peter Parker in that respect, he had this amazing power that he really couldn’t share with anyone else, and by association a heavy burden that rested on his shoulders alone. He couldn’t exactly confide in Han or Leia with regards to this stuff. His mentors were surly and disparaging. And ultimately he failed - not just himself but the galaxy. There wasn’t an endless pool of broom-wielding Force-mutants out there for Yoda and Obi Wan to draw upon. Luke was the last hope.

The PT took away from this to an extent. Now the Force was entirely genetic and potential Jedi were assessed via a blood-test and sent to stuffy Jedi colleges. But at least Anakin had an emotional struggle, which of course he failed.

Rey just wins. She does nothing but win. She’s better than everyone - Kylo, Luke, even Yoda. That’s fine I guess. I just prefer the Force as a deep and elusive mystery rather than the frivolous fountain of super-powers it has become.

Post
#1267037
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

ChainsawAsh said:

Shopping Maul said:

I know we’ve covered this in triplicate, but by this logic Ep 4 may as well have been called ‘A New Hope Among Many’. The whole point of the OT is that Luke is unique - that he’s tapping into something rare and difficult and mostly forgotten. Why else would the series be so invested in him personally? When Obi Wan solemnly declared “That boy is our last hope”, why didn’t Yoda simply say “No, any idiot will do. Let’s get that Solo guy. He seems confident”?

Or he was the last hope because of his family connection to Vader (“the other” was always meant to be his sister, too, even when that sister wasn’t Leia).

I think Obi-Wan and Yoda believed that being forced to confront his offspring would put him off balance enough to give Luke an edge. It turned out that they were right to place their trust in Luke, but not for the reason they believed - it was because Luke didn’t lose faith that his father could be saved.

It wasn’t because they simply couldn’t find someone else who was strong in the Force to train.

And if you’re going by prequel “rules,” they (or at least Obi-Wan) believed that Luke - or at least, one of Anakin’s children - was the Chosen One, rather than Anakin himself as they’d all believed before. So, by buying into the prophecy, yeah, he would’ve seen Luke as the “last hope.”

It’s hard to know where to draw those familial lines given that Vader wasn’t even Luke’s dad when Obi first posed the notion of Luke learning the Force - nor was there any ‘20 year plan’ on behalf of Obi Wan and Yoda. When the ‘other’ was initially presented in TESB, she was supposed to be someone who had been trained on the other side of the galaxy - the operative word being ‘trained’. It was only to dig himself out of a story hole that Lucas made Leia the sister and planted the idea that Skywalkers were a worthy threat to Palpatine based on heritage/genetics alone (cue Midichlorians). As far as Luke being any kind of ‘hope’ via the unanticipated (by Yoda and Obi Wan) redemption of Anakin - well I’ve made a lot of noise on these threads about how I feel Luke’s role in RoTJ was completely and utterly redundant with regard to that final battle.

Look, the whole Force thing is as elastic as anyone wants it to be. I just think the reason so many fans are up in arms about Rey’s instant and consequence-free power levels is that the previous films greatly imply a deep and difficult learning curve with regards to the Force. Also, the OT has the Force (and Jedi) as something forgotten and elusive and even snickered at. If Force-powers really did pop up everywhere like the ST implies, surely someone like Vader wouldn’t have wielded the terrifying influence he did in TESB. Wouldn’t there be a reasonable number of Imperial officers who just happened to be pretty good at levitation or Force-choking (perhaps they saw Vader do it and learned it instantly like Rey did) that could defy Lord Vader’s many homicidal tantrums? No, Vader was the last personification of a forgotten art. It’s not like Admiral Ozzel could turn to his fellow officers and say “look, don’t worry about Vader. My kid Force-choked his teacher the other day. Anyone can do this s##t”.

Making the Force - which is/was the spiritual backbone of the series - something easily dealt with and more or less unlimited diminishes it and, by extension, Luke Skywalker’s journey.