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Shopping Maul

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Post
#1260472
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

Post
#1260467
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I don’t buy this ‘TESB was just as polarising’ argument. Sure, you can find detractors of just about anything if you look hard enough. I bet there were fans of ‘Meet the Beatles’ that thought ‘Sgt Peppers’ was pompous garbage.

Of course I only have my own perspective, but as a SW fan in 1980 I recall nothing but rapture at how awesome TESB was. It may have been jarring to some - it took risks in establishing a saga rather than just retreading the original - but overall people were just thrilled that the whole thing had been ramped up to 11. It’s not like people were claiming that TESB had killed the series or split the fanbase (and I’m pretty sure Kenner and Marvel suffered no ills).

The only reason anyone could’ve had a beef with TESB is if they were annoyed at it’s ‘middle chapter’ status and/or possibly that it was too dour compared to the comic-booky original. TLJ is derided because it messes with established canon, has plotholes you could drive a Star Destroyer through, and confirms the notion that JJ Abrams didn’t give a hoot about all the ‘mystery boxes’ he used to seduce us into liking the previous one. I’m not saying this to be a troll - I quite like the movies despite all this stuff. But sitting around and referencing Joseph Campbell and postulating world-building that simply never occurred to the writers of these movies is doing their work for them. We did it for Lucas when he couldn’t even make prequels that lined up with his original films, and we’re doing it now. Which is fun of course, but let’s not kid ourselves.

Post
#1260357
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I think it would have been awesome if the New Republic was depicted using Star Destroyers/TIE Fighters etc etc and the First Order relegated to battered old X-Wings and Y-Wings etc. Imagine seeing Leia and Ackbar at the bridge of a big ol’ Star Destroyer - it makes sense the that the New Republic would’ve seized the tech of the former government right? Imagine seeing Kylo Ren in an X-Wing. Probably marketing/toy sales suicide of course, but THAT would subvert expectations and also add an emotional element visually - that of visualising the First Order as a kind of rebellion. If Snoke hadn’t just been a shallow Palpatine-clone we might have had an opportunity to have some ambiguity with regards to the motivations of the FO and Kylo Ren.

And I stand by my contention from a zillion threads back that the ‘new Emperor’ should’ve been Mon Mothma on a revenge trip after her secretly siding with Palpatine and giving the rebels false information (in order to spare the Bothan system and win a seat of power at Palpatine’s side) went south during the Endor battle…

Post
#1260232
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

It has already been demonstrated that Force abilities and proficiencies manifest in people before any Jedi training. What does most Jedi instruction consist of? Clear your mind. Focus. Do or do not, there is no try. I am not sure what other instruction would be involved in levitating a rock.

Luke was very unfocused. He was sheltered by his aunt and uncle and was not very self reliant. Rey is none of those things. She is very focused and extremely self reliant. She is confident and believes in herself.

Luke was incredibly confident. He was naive (as is Rey) but he had no lack of confidence. Look at the way he (clumsily) facilitated Leia’s rescue, or was the only guy on Yavin 4 who didn’t flinch at the size of the DS exhaust port. Look at the status he had acquired by TESB as a strong (and respected) military leader. Look at his insistence that he could become a Jedi despite Yoda’s dressing him down during their first meeting.

The problem was twofold - he was quick to anger and impatience, and secondly learning to use the Force is/was established as being really difficult. That’s the appeal of the Force as a narrative tool. It’s like martial arts in the Karate Kid. You don’t just switch it on because you feel like it, no matter how confident or tough or naturally gifted you are. That’s the ‘lesson’ of the OT - that just being a hot pilot or good fighter does not a Jedi make. Luke learned this the hard way.

I like the idea of Rey as something of a feral Jedi, but it’s as if the writers of these films aren’t giving the whole thing much thought beyond “hey, let’s have her do cool Jedi stuff”. Yoda expressed obvious amusement at Luke’s notion that a Jedi Master would automatically be a ‘great warrior’. Now this seems redundant. If you’re confident and can wave a stick, then mastery is just around the corner.

Post
#1260189
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

rodneyfaile said:

Rey is an autodidact. She has been on her own so long, that is just her way. I love it.

Only to a point. I don’t mind that she has fighting skills, or even heightened intuition as a result of her particular circumstances, but she ‘learns’ Jedi mind-tricks and MAJOR levitation skills immediately and without a shred of effort. She channels the Force in order to defeat Kylo Ren (a trained Force user) after only having heard about the Force that very morning (which, by the way, was because someone told JJ that Rey need a big ‘moment’ rather than being the result of a considered piece of storytelling). That’s fine - the sky is the limit I suppose. But to argue that this fits seamlessly with established lore is absurd. Yes, the lore has grown and evolved from day one. But training and discipline were always a big part of it. Luke says to Leia “you have that power too - in time you’ll learn to use it as I have” as opposed to “you have that power too - and it’ll appear like magic by tea-time. Now go levitate that broom…”

Post
#1260090
Topic
The original Marvel Star Wars series
Time

ZkinandBonez said:

Does anyone know who did the art on p.28 (see picture below) for SW #47 “Droid World”. The first page only lists Infantino as the artist (which is quite clear from the art itself) and Gene Day as the inker. But p.28 (the second-to-last page) is clearly drawn by someone else with a noticeably different art style. I’ve had the Norwegian version of this issue since I was a kid, and it has always really bugged me.

(PS. This is from the Norwegian version. I have the American version as well but I’d already scanned the Norwegian one recently, plus the art is untouched and the colours are pretty much the same in both versions anyway.)

I don’t have the issue in front of me, but I always assumed that page was Gene Day. I recall a strip he did somewhere amongst the Conan stuff that looked like this. I’m assuming an Infantino page went missing and Gene quickly flew solo for this one. I could be wrong though…

Post
#1259638
Topic
The original Marvel Star Wars series
Time

ZkinandBonez said:

Archie Goodwin’s layout sketches next to Carmine Infantino’s finished art for the first four pages of SW #31.

I find these fascinating as, to my knowledge, it’s quite rare for a comic writer to sketch out the lay-out of a comic and then hand them over to the actual illustrator.

It’s also interesting to see just how similar the finished art is to the sketches. Apart from a few changes in angle/perspective, the compositions are practically much the same.

Wow, I’d heard about these but had no idea Archie was so thorough. Great find!

Post
#1258380
Topic
your thoughts: Did Disney kill star wars because it sounds like they did with the last jedi solo and resistance.
Time

RogueLeader said:

The old Jedi Order took students from infancy in order to control their emotional attachments, which they saw as gateways to the dark side. This is why they were so reluctant to take on Anakin as a Jedi. I think it gave the wrong impression that learning how to use the Force took years, when that really isn’t the entirely the case. It has more to do with belief, and one’s ability to “let go of your conscious self”.

It also surprises me a little that people haven’t considered as much that the Force itself has changed between the trilogies. The Force isn’t a static ability, it’s dynamic and connected to life itself, making it in a way alive.

Episode 7 is literally called The Force Awakens. What does that mean? Is it not possible that this awakening is not partially responsible for the feats we’ve seen across the board in the new films, like Kylo Ren freezing blaster bolts, Rey’s fast-growing abilities, their subsequent Force-Skype sessions, Leia pulling herself back to the ship, Luke’s Force projection, even broom boy’s subtle Force pull?

You could even argue this began with Luke in the OT, the first real student of the Force since the Jedi Purge. He really only had a few weeks at most of official training with Yoda, but in Return of the Jedi, only a year later with no additional training under Yoda, he is on the verge of officially becoming a Jedi.

It raises some questions about the nature of the Force. Does the overall use of the Force have an affect on its potential in existing Force-users? Does the Force have a will of its own to choose who it acts through? Did training Jedi from infancy have a side-effect of limiting their relationship with the Force in ways that didn’t exist for those who discovered it at adulthood? Is the Force just like an ocean, where the tide can rise and fall?

I personally think these questions about the Force should really never be answered fully, and should remain mysterious, simple-yet-complicated, and sometimes contradictory, much like the Tao that inspired it, and also as a concept of a universal religion-symbol that George meant it to be, since religions are also endlessly debated upon.

I think the important theme we are meant to take from the Force is the ideas of faith and belief, the crux of all religions, and the internal power we can get from faith in our own lives, religious or not. Luke struggles with the Force in the OT because of his doubt in the Force and his own personal self-doubt.

Rey on the other hand grew up with the legend of Luke Skywalker and the Jedi, and not long after learning about the reality of the them, she slowly learns that she’s also connected to this Force and begins her own journey of self-discovery and self-actualization.

With broom boy, moments before his Force use, he is being told the story of Luke Skywalker’s grand stand against the evil First Order, with wonder in his eyes. He believes in the Jedi, in the Force, and that subtle moment, something he might not have even realized he did, is a representation of what the power of faith and hope can have in the world and in ourselves.

Anyway, just my two cents. Not trying to argue, just sharing my perspective.

It’s all good dude, I love discussing this stuff. And I acknowledge that I’m the one being a ‘conservative’ fan here. Since the Force is a pretty nebulous concept, it makes sense that we’d all get a different sense of what it might be.

Lucas is notorious for changing his mind as he goes along, but for me the Force sits where he stated during the writing sessions for RoTJ circa 1981 - that the Force is basically ‘space yoga’ that anyone can do as long as they apply themselves. Luke’s journey (again IMO) is that of someone seeking a black belt and the mindfulness of a Bodhisattva. I didn’t agree with Han’s TFA claim that it was ‘a magical power’. I see it as an undiscovered science - something as ‘real’ as gravity or quantum physics that very disciplined souls can utilise.

But that’s just me. I don’t like the idea of Force genetics. I didn’t mind the idea of Jedi-ness running in the family in some vague way, but Midichlorians make it sound like you can attain enlightenment if you have the right blood type. That just kills it for me. The idea of a sentient Force that chooses its own saviours and balances itself through certain people doesn’t ring ‘true’ for me. All that stuff Snoke said about ‘awakenings’ and ‘the light rising to meet the dark’ I interpreted as a kind of anthropomorphic ‘cart before the horse’ summation of how certain characters were tapping into the Force after all this time. Again, I don’t like the idea of a ‘living Force’. I see the Force as an energy that changes according to use, not just because it ‘wants’ to.

I think it’s a bit dicey, in story terms, to make the powers easily attainable. In ep 4 the Force was all but forgotten. Han Solo had travelled far and wide and never seen anything to validate the idea. It makes sense in the context of the OT that attaining these powers requires serious discipline/focus and is only done by a dedicated few. Yes, there’s the supposed ‘quick and easy path’, but I don’t think that refers to just getting powers on a whim. I do like the idea of Rey as something of a ‘feral Jedi’ - someone who unknowingly taps into their own potential by virtue of doing it tough - but she has no limits and suffers no consequences whatsoever. Her lifting an entire mountainside with little effort and zero training invalidates Luke’s journey - as does Broom Boy to an extent. Was Luke just a terrible study then? Is levitation a piece of cake after all? Is the galaxy peppered with precocious kids that are Force-choking their parents and levitating their teachers because they don’t want to do their homework or eat their veges? No, it makes more sense that Jedi potential would manifest in subtle ways as it did with the Skywalkers - good reflexes, keen instincts etc. You could assess a kid at that level, turn them down for whatever reason, and be secure in the knowledge that they’re not suddenly going to start lifting mountains and Force-choking anyone who crosses them! It would require training.

But again, that’s just how I see it. Thanks for the awesome reply - it gave me a lot to ponder. Meditate on this I will…

Post
#1258214
Topic
your thoughts: Did Disney kill star wars because it sounds like they did with the last jedi solo and resistance.
Time

I really hate the ‘Force as X-Men powers’ thing. I personally much prefer the version heavily implied by eps 4 and 5 - that mastery of the Force requires serious discipline and study. It sucks that it was made heavily genetic in RoTJ (in order to serve the idea of Leia being a threat to the Sith by birthright alone) which of course was compounded by the Midichlorian-rich prequels. Still, even prequel Jedi had to train for it.

Seriously, if potential Jedi kids could just levitate stuff willy-nilly at the Rey/Broom Boy level, then it would logically follow that the Jedi Council would had to have taken Anakin on board out of immediate necessity - “yep, you’d better train him Qui Gon 'cos those powers are gonna grow anyway!”.

Post
#1257975
Topic
your thoughts: Did Disney kill star wars because it sounds like they did with the last jedi solo and resistance.
Time

You know how folks say we should never have put man on the moon, because that’s the bar that everything gets judged against? Well it’s the the same with Star Wars because we had The Empire Strikes Back. If not for Empire we might find Ewoks and Midichlorians and ‘Greedo shot first’ and the conga-line of cantinas/Death Stars much easier to bear.

Post
#1256755
Topic
your thoughts: Did Disney kill star wars because it sounds like they did with the last jedi solo and resistance.
Time

Voss Caltrez said:

Shopping Maul said:

Voss Caltrez said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Voss Caltrez said:

Luke using the dark side to choke out the guards at Jabba’s palace.

Actually, this is one of the tidbits of ROTJ I do still like. It’s morally gray stuff like that the film needed much more of.

But who is Darth Henrietta? The Emperor?

Yeah. With the makeup, cackling, and aerodynamics, ROTS Palpatine brings to mind Henrietta from Evil Dead II.

Supposedly, it was done to make audiences unsure of whether or not Luke would become like his father, or stay on the good side. If that’s the reason, that’s cool.
But still, I thought that once you start down the path of the dark side, forever it will consumes you.
If he’s using the dark side of the Force, he must have been practicing it to some degree. And it’s like, why would he do that? How can you pick and choose when you’re going to use the dark side, and still not become evil?
And I thought the Force was only for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

I never saw Evil Dead II. I wonder if The Emperor would have been better if the actor had gone with the initial advice of doing the same type of voice from ESB?

Here’s what I don’t get - killing Palpatine because he is in the throes of annihilating entire shipfuls of sentient beings with a super-laser is ‘the Dark Side’. Killing Palpatine because he’s zapping your son with Force-lightning is ‘the Good Side’.

Sounds like BS to me…

It’s been awhile since I’ve watched ROTJ, but yeah, even then I remember Luke’s decision real questionable.
He won’t fight his father, okay.
The Emperor?
He won’t fight him either. He even throws his ligth saber to the ground, to show he’s about non-violence.
So…what was his plan? Convince Vader to be good again. Maybe that might work since he’s is father.
But what about the Emperor? How was he going to defeat him? With a well-reasoned argument?
If Luke was all Ghandi-like, where was that vow of non-violence on Jabba’s barge?

Funnily enough, when there was prior talk of TLJ having a controversial angle, I thought this was going to be it. I thought Luke was going to come clean about the supposed legend surrounding the Emperor’s defeat, and basically admit that Palpatine’s death had been a fortunate by-product of Luke’s more selfish/insular pursuits regarding Vader. An extension of this would be Luke admitting that Jedi ethics may not be entirely useful or appropriate in a war situation. TLJ did touch upon notions of Jedi hubris but still ignored the blue elephant in the room - namely that after all that ‘only hope’ build-up of the previous two films, Luke was busy redeeming his mass-murdering war-criminal father while everyone else was saving the galaxy.

Post
#1256673
Topic
your thoughts: Did Disney kill star wars because it sounds like they did with the last jedi solo and resistance.
Time

Voss Caltrez said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Voss Caltrez said:

Luke using the dark side to choke out the guards at Jabba’s palace.

Actually, this is one of the tidbits of ROTJ I do still like. It’s morally gray stuff like that the film needed much more of.

But who is Darth Henrietta? The Emperor?

Yeah. With the makeup, cackling, and aerodynamics, ROTS Palpatine brings to mind Henrietta from Evil Dead II.

Supposedly, it was done to make audiences unsure of whether or not Luke would become like his father, or stay on the good side. If that’s the reason, that’s cool.
But still, I thought that once you start down the path of the dark side, forever it will consumes you.
If he’s using the dark side of the Force, he must have been practicing it to some degree. And it’s like, why would he do that? How can you pick and choose when you’re going to use the dark side, and still not become evil?
And I thought the Force was only for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

I never saw Evil Dead II. I wonder if The Emperor would have been better if the actor had gone with the initial advice of doing the same type of voice from ESB?

Here’s what I don’t get - killing Palpatine because he is in the throes of annihilating entire shipfuls of sentient beings with a super-laser is ‘the Dark Side’. Killing Palpatine because he’s zapping your son with Force-lightning is ‘the Good Side’.

Sounds like BS to me…

Post
#1251760
Topic
Rey &amp; Kylo Ren's Relationship
Time

screams in the void said:

“No, Leia was definitely not Luke’s sister circa TESB. There are deleted scenes that illustrate this in spades - as well as the Marvel adaptation of the film. It was a love triangle, pure and simple.”- this is a correct statement and there are plenty of articles in publications such as Star Wars Insider , Starlog , Cinefex , Fantastic films etc to back it up as well as the making of books by J.W.Rinzler . I have many of these publications in storage boxes and will have to spend some time digging them up .

Did you ever see/read the ‘Clone Wars revealed’ article (not sure which mag - Fantastic Films? - or the exact title) that explained how Vader would turn out to be a clone of Luke’s father and Boba Fett was actually the original Skywalker in disguise? Obi Wan was a clone too (Obi-1). Pretty wild stuff. I remember a friend of mine, upon having just seen RoTJ, saying “meh, they should’ve gone with the ideas in that article…”!

Post
#1251063
Topic
Rey &amp; Kylo Ren's Relationship
Time

nl0428 said:

screams in the void said:

"I don’t believe modern Star Wars films are descending into these types of gossip. I believe that the ones who are responsible for creating terms such as “Reylo” are fans and shippers (not to sound critical towards these fans). “…SOME of these fans are the ones I was talking about and not the films themselves . Also , Rey may have been told one thing during the production of TLJ but it would not be the first time a plot point was hidden from the cast , they told everyone except Mark Hamill that the famous line was " Obi-Wan killed your father !” . I do not believe they will turn out to be siblings , nor do I believe they are going to be romantically involved , but I could be wrong . To state that anything is Empiracal fact is just speculation . You yourself said that things you thought were one way , turned out to be another .That happened a lot in the Original trilogy as well …back in 1977 , I was SURE Luke and Leia would end up together and the comics even ran with that idea , sometimes even after Empire was out .Anything can happen going forward .lastly , and just a pet peeve that my slightly ocd self gloamed in on is the term " shippers " another one I wish would die . I have been on the planet 47 years and have only heard it used in the past few years . That , and “hot take” which is something that I reserve for after a high fiber meal .Good points you bring up though, and as the Dude says , it’s just like , our collective opinions man ".

You are right, all film is subjective. I feel that the reason why Luke and Leia ended up as siblings and did not become a couple was due to George Lucas’ decisions back then. There is a great book called, “How Star Wars Conquered the Universe,” which describes the behind the scenes involvement that was occurring throughout the franchise’s history. At the time, George was still not to sure whether he wanted them to be a couple, or as siblings. These thoughts must have occurred in George’s head when making The Empire Strikes Back. They had hinted at Leia being Luke’s sister by having Yoda referring to another, and her sensing Luke on Cloud City, despite Leia giving Luke a couple-like kiss in front of Han on Hoth.

No, Leia was definitely not Luke’s sister circa TESB. There are deleted scenes that illustrate this in spades - as well as the Marvel adaptation of the film. It was a love triangle, pure and simple.

Nor was ‘the other’ referring to Leia at the time. Leia was a prisoner on Cloud City when Yoda made the claim. He had even just encouraged Luke to ‘sacrifice Han and Leia’ for the greater good (after Obi Wan admitted that “even Yoda cannot see their fate”).

As for ‘Reylo’, I actually really like the way their bond is depicted in TLJ, even if the overall writing is suspect. I love how Kylo almost begs her to join him. It’s a great character moment for him that is disappointingly dashed when he reverts to his old temper-tantrum throwing self whilst engaging Luke and the rebels on Soth (salt-Hoth).

Post
#1248197
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

SilverWook said:

The only fuss I recall over Conan was the alleged use of trip wires on the horses, which director John Milius denies ever happened. Lots of horse owners in California, and I saw protesters with signs at one theater local to me back in '82.

Beastmaster came out three months after Conan, so I don’t see how it’s considered a knockoff anymore than The Sword and The Sorcerer which opened a month before Conan. And you had Thundarr The Barbarian on Saturday mornings two years before Conan even came out.

Remember when all those underwater movies came out around the same time as The Abyss? It just happens for some reason. Beefy guys with swords were suddenly in vogue in the early '80’s.

Sorry guys - perhaps ‘knockoff’ was the wrong word. The point I was making is that there was a glut of similarly-styled films around the time of Conan '82 that my peers (fellow students and adults alike) seemed to much prefer. I didn’t have the same experience with TESB (which everyone seemed to love).

Post
#1248154
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

I don’t for a moment think all the trolling, or even half, was Russians but I can see that in a political down time they might jump in and amplify the negative comments about the film. They might just be disgruntled Star Wars fans as well. I don’t really think it matters. You can tell from this thread that the negative opinions are very genuine. We could argue the percentage, but does that really matter. TLJ is devisive. I don’t think a Star Wars film has been this devisive since TESB. When it came out few found it as good as the original. Now we love it. Who knows what 10 years will do to everyone’s feelings about TLJ.

Is this really an apt comparison though? I’ll admit I only have my own perspective here, but back in 1980 I only recall lavish praise for TESB and a very excited fandom. Admittedly I ignored critics (they never liked the movies I did anyway) and I’m sure there were dissenting voices as with any film, but I honestly never sensed anything that rivals the polarising effect TLJ has had (internet notwithstanding). If anything I’d say RoTJ was the one that started any such rumblings of doubt.

On the flipside Conan the Barbarian '82 was often written off as garbage in the media, and my schoolmates all thought it was boring and much preferred knock-offs like ‘The Beastmaster’. However over time CTB has been hailed as a giant in the genre, so I do see how this can happen.

Post
#1246001
Topic
When did Darth Vader discover about Luke Skywalker and what were his intentions.
Time

I’m assuming you’re referring to current versions of TESB? In the original 1980 film, Vader had already learned the name (and identity) of the pilot who had destroyed the Death Star and was hell-bent on tracking him down (for obvious reasons). The notion of the Emperor telling Vader who Luke was during the hologram chat was one of Lucas’ post-1997 tweaks and, typically, doesn’t make a shred of sense.

As Screams said above, Marvel had Vader learning Luke’s name during a raid on a Rebel stronghold. TESB as it stood merely left it to the audience to wonder how and when Vader had learned Luke’s name.

As for the opening crawl, I think it was just a way of defining Luke as a rebel leader rather than the naive farm-boy of the previous movie.

Post
#1242467
Topic
General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread
Time

NeverarGreat said:

screams in the void said:

well , this is an interesting perspective I never thought of , don’t really buy it , but interesting none the less …https://io9.gizmodo.com/this-theory-shows-why-c-3po-is-the-secret-hero-of-star-1829149241

I think there’s evidence for this theory in the original movie, but after that he was written to be much more bumbling and less crafty.

I assume that’s because he was initially written as an oily used-car salesman type character, but Lucas finally conceded to Tony Daniels’ take on things. I like Threepio. He had some nice moments in TESB too, but I think he’s gotten a raw deal ever since. Daniels seems to be doing an impression of Threepio these days, rather than just being Threepio. He was (comparatively) edgier in the first two films I think.

Post
#1242294
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

The way I see it, Star Wars simply did what rock bands have been doing for years. Someone mentioned that heavy metal didn’t exist when Black Sabbath emerged. That’s true of so many bands. What the hell was KISS? Glam? Metal? Neither - they were just KISS. What were the Chili Peppers? Funk? Nope. Punk? Nope. Rap? Uh-uh. Just a weird mix of lots of stuff. I’m pretty sure Kurt Cobain didn’t say one morning “let’s invent a thing called ‘grunge’ - I’ll call up Chris Cornell and Eddie Vedder and we’ll start a movement”. Nirvana didn’t do anything new, but they certainly were unique.

Star Wars is Star Wars.

Post
#1242118
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

Yotsuya (great thread by the way), do you happen to know the extent to which Lucas employed Joseph Campbell throughout the OT? Gary Kurtz claims it wasn’t such a huge factor until further into the series. I ask this because I couldn’t help but reflect on our back and forth re ROTJ. I’m not familiar with Campbell so this is pure speculation, but it seems to me that Lucas leaned more heavily on the mythical aspects of the story in ROTJ where he’d been relying on more ‘logical’ cues in the previous films. For example Yoda says Luke has to face Darth Vader in order to become a Jedi, but I feel that someone like Kershner would have had Yoda (or Obi Wan) preface it with the need for a Jedi to ‘face his deepest fear’ or something similar in order to contextualise/ground the idea (the prequels seem to attempt it with ‘Jedi trials’). Even Luke’s final battle (as I’ve been moaning about for some time!) seems to be more broadly metaphorical/symbolic than practical in terms of actually being of help to the rebel cause. I’ve also seen Lucas describe the Ewoks as the mythical ‘creature on the side of the road’, which was of course achieved with Yoda in TESB but realised with significantly more blatant cuteness in ROTJ. There’s even the moment where Luke says “I can’t go on alone”, clearly marking that point in the journey, whereas Obi Wan’s death and Luke’s being left alone in ANH were more or less written on the run.

It seems to me that Campbell/mythology was a factor in SW/TESB - along with westerns and Flash Gordon and all the other stuff mentioned in this thread - but may have taken a more blatant hold in ROTJ. Or am I, as Leia would say, “imagining things”?

Cambell’s work was based on myths and legends, but only relied on those in so far as they are the oldest, most persistent, and most iconic types of stories. He apparently studied stories from around the globe. But what his work entails are basically instructions for telling a story that feels old and taps into our deep cultural memory. I read most of it and as a writer it was informative, but full of things I didn’t need. So the myth part is not really part of his aim - he was aimed at getting to the heart of the story telling. ANH and TESB are filled with Cambell’s influence as Luke begins the hero’s journey. The entire OT is filled and Luke traveling along the hero’s journey. Ben even gives the ultimate goal in ANH when he tells Luke he must learn the force. Then after he dies he sends Luke to Yoda to be trained. So Cambell is there and has huge impact on the story from the beginning. And the Ewoks were just mini-wookies. That battle was originally supposed to be the Wookies against the Empire. I don’t see any more influence on ROTJ than the previous two films. I think he used it to a lesser degree in the PT and I heard that at least Rian Johnson used it for TLJ. I suspect that Lucas saw his use of Cambell as something more akin to fantasy without realizing that it was already a staple of science fiction.

The hero’s journey was a key element in the old romance adventures that speculative fiction was born from. It is key in the Planetary Romances of the early 20th century and the Space Operas of the mid 20th century. They obviously weren’t reading Campbell, but the were tapping into the myths and legends that were his sources. You can really see that in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings where Tolkien was drawing on Finnish, Norse, and English traditions, myths, legends, and folk tales and using them to create his fictional Middle Earth before Campbell ever published his work (1949). The first John Carter book follows the same pattern as well. Campbell just compiled everything you would need to know in one place and gave it meaning and reason. But Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Foundation, and Dune (Lucas’s known inspirations) are full of the western tradition of the hero’s journey and samurai movies are full of the eastern traditions. So he got it on all side and from all source and made it really strong and solid. Luke’s story is much closer to classic mythology like Hercules as a result. At least in terms of the beats of the story.

Thanks for that. I absolutely love Dune by the way. I reread it every couple of years - never gets old!

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#1242113
Topic
Science Fiction or Space Fantasy - what is Star Wars
Time

SilverWook said:

Astroboi2 said:

If science fiction is about how scientific advancements impact humanity, then Star Wars can’t be sci-fi. There aren’t any real humans. It’s just a bunch of aliens… with many that happen to look like humans and happen to speak english. It’s a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, so it’s got nothing to do with us.

Now, if they went the Battlestar Galactica route and said that these were our forefathers who would one day colonize earth, then I would argree that it’s sci-fi.

Not that I really care. Star Wars just belongs in the genre of Awesome.

You mean had colonized Earth. The final episode of the original series pretty much sets things taking place after 1969. Whether a few years or thousand years after is anyone’s guess. And Galactica 1980 doesn’t count. 😉

It reminded me of Hitchhikers Guide, where the Earth was accidentally colonised by hairdressers and PR people and other rejects from an advanced society…