Shopping Maul

Gaffer Tape said:

Wow. I never would have guessed we’d be debating whether or not Luke choked the guards. It always seemed completely obvious to me that he was choking them. Funny how that works.

As for the comparison of Luke versus Ben and Yoda… honestly, the way we ultimately see it presented in the prequels makes it very difficult to swallow what they did, and I find it very difficult to defend it outside of, “We need to tie up loose ends and get everyone to where they are in the first movie.” Honestly, the concept would have worked much better with the earlier interpretations of the Sith as a large organization of anti-Jedi. Then, with Obi-Wan and Yoda being the only two against a huge force of Sith, it makes sense for them to flee for their lives. But with the whole rule of two, it makes no sense. I mean, from Ben’s point of view, he just killed one of the two, leaving only the Emperor, and yet right then is the moment he decides he has to get away? I mean, in the original trilogy, Obi-Wan has to use obfuscation just to get past the stormtroopers on the Death Star. But in the prequel context, the Emperor’s clone troopers, the only other means of enforcement he has besides Vader, are cut down like butter by Obi-Wan and Yoda. They’re no threat at all. So rather than team up against the Emperor or leading a rebellion… they just go into hiding, leaving everyone to suffer at the hands of Imperial tyranny.

Honestly, Luke’s motivations seem extremely plausible by comparison.

I agree. It’s also worth noting that at the time of ANH there was no ‘20 year plan’ to wait for the ‘Jedi twins’. There was no Yoda, no ‘sister’, no ‘rule of two’, and Vader was just a nasty guy who had killed Luke’s father. Luke wasn’t in hiding, and Obi Wan was simply a retired war veteran. So I don’t think it’s a worthy comparison given how ‘on the fly’ the whole thing was mapped out.

Personally I think the whole 20 year plan presented in ROTS was stupid. Vader should have been aware he had a son (with the second child born without his knowledge and taken by Bail Organa - maybe Mrs Organa’s own child died around the same time giving cover/validity to the ruse) and Owen Lars should’ve been the one to stubbornly insist Luke be raised as a Skywalker on Tatooine. Obi Wan would then retire nearby on the off chance that Vader may come to claim his son one day, and Yoda would wash his hands of the whole thing and head to Dagobah to live out his final days. You could have a scene where Yoda insists that Leia be trained as a potential Jedi and is at odds with Bail and Anakin’s wife who want her raised as a princess - thus giving credence to Yoda’s sudden ‘there is another’ brainwave in TESB which Kenobi doesn’t seem to be so privy to.

Sorry about the rambling reply…

Calculon said:

Shopping Maul said:
I don’t know how plausible Leia’s space walk is. For all I know her survival in that moment (Force aside) is entirely scientific. But it looks ridiculous. It takes me out of the film because I start questioning it - “hang on, does that even make sense?”. Yes, it’s a universe where muppets lift X-wing fighters with a gesture, but somehow this moment is a mood-killer.

It was a little weird, and the way they did the visuals made it look a little silly. Ultimately I just went with it, mostly for the reasons you mentioned. I mean, if you can pull an object to yourself, why not pull yourself toward an object? If we’re putting future stories in a creative box labeled “if it didn’t happen in the original three or six, it can’t happen”, there wouldn’t be anywhere to go. That’s generally where I stand with most of the more controversial things being discussed around here.

The plausibility of the space walk in general? Force aside, yes, it’s generally accepted that you can survive in vacuum for a short time. Maybe a minute. Because of the near-zero pressure, your tissues near the skin would get puffy, and all of the moisture on the exposed surfaces of your body would boil away (saliva, etc). Only ‘mistake’ I noticed was that they seemed to make her look ‘iced over’, which is a common thing to do to someone exposed to vacuum in TV and movies. But that wouldn’t happen very quickly. Your body temperature is well above freezing, and in vacuum there’s no convection or conduction to move heat - you only cool off via direct radiation - so you would more likely overheat than get cold. Of course you’d lose consciousness after a few seconds at best, so you’d probably never notice…

In short - surviving the spacewalk itself is fine. They also did it correctly in that she would need immediate hospitalization for decompression injuries. But in a universe that has bacta, no problem, right?

Cool response - thanks! It’s fascinating to me just how Star Wars credulity works, and how varied and nuanced it can be. And yes, Bacta heals all wounds as they say…

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

I wonder if the Leia space scene could have been inspired by Marvel Star Wars #52, in which Imperial Officers fed up with Vader choking their fellows, try to assassinate him?
http://bullyscomics.blogspot.com/2015/09/365-days-of-star-wars-comics-day-252.html

Immediately after seeing TLJ, I was sitting with my wife and we were discussing the movie. I was explaining why I didn’t like the Poppins Leia scene, and I told her about this amazing moment in the old comics where disgruntled officers were trying to assassinate Vader by opening an airlock behind him. I was saying how awesome it was that he used the Force to steady himself against the airflow, then marched step by step back into the ship - how this would’ve been a better way to handle it than the floating through space/doorknock thing.

And here it is! Nice one!

I’m seeing that Mary Poppins thing all over the darn internet. I don’t recall Julie Andrews being violently blown out into space and almost dying. Did Walt cut that after the test screeings?
Or is this some clever viral marketing for the MP sequel? 😉

Sorry, I assumed we were on the same page here. My bad!

The ‘Mary Poppins’ thing is entirely down to the fact that the scene looks silly. We all know that Star Wars is entirely non-scientific (sound in space, earth-conditions on planets of all sizes etc etc) but there is still a (subjective) sense of plausibility even within this ‘silly’ universe.

A good example is the Ewoks. The Ewoks somehow cross a line for many people. Star Wars is jam-packed with cutesy animals and weird creatures made of rubber and a tall guy in a monkey suit - so why single out the Ewoks? Well, they cross a line. They’re teddy bears! We’re suddenly watching Paddington in Space rather than simply adding yet another exotic creature to the Star Wars lexicon. It’s a subtle thing, and a subjective thing, but it’s a thing.

I don’t know how plausible Leia’s space walk is. For all I know her survival in that moment (Force aside) is entirely scientific. But it looks ridiculous. It takes me out of the film because I start questioning it - “hang on, does that even make sense?”. Yes, it’s a universe where muppets lift X-wing fighters with a gesture, but somehow this moment is a mood-killer.

In the comic book you mentioned, Vader grabs a handhold as the airlock opens, calls upon the Force, and slowly rights himself against the winds rushing past him. It’s a great scene for Vader - gives him an almost ‘Terminator’ vibe and demonstrates his power. But as I write this I’m kind of realising that the same scene with Leia in Vader’s place probably would’ve looked dumb too. Ultimately I wish they’d either let her go in that scene or just not done that scene in the first place.

SilverWook said:

I wonder if the Leia space scene could have been inspired by Marvel Star Wars #52, in which Imperial Officers fed up with Vader choking their fellows, try to assassinate him?
http://bullyscomics.blogspot.com/2015/09/365-days-of-star-wars-comics-day-252.html

Immediately after seeing TLJ, I was sitting with my wife and we were discussing the movie. I was explaining why I didn’t like the Poppins Leia scene, and I told her about this amazing moment in the old comics where disgruntled officers were trying to assassinate Vader by opening an airlock behind him. I was saying how awesome it was that he used the Force to steady himself against the airflow, then marched step by step back into the ship - how this would’ve been a better way to handle it than the floating through space/doorknock thing.

And here it is! Nice one!

Dat_SW_Guy said:

Shopping Maul said:

canofhumdingers said:

Collipso said:

SilverWook said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

SilverWook said:

If these guys aren’t all being sucked out into space, then a similar emergency field around a small door isn’t a stretch.

Seriously people, we’re nitpicking movies where you can hear sounds in space.

They can have shields that allow for open air on the exterior of the Death Star. Its’ that way when the Falcon lands in the first movie too. But in general I agree with your point, the scientific stuff doesn’t need to be nitpicked as long as its not obvious and really dumb. For instance, the asteroids in the asteroid field would never be that close together in real life. And when the Millenium Falcon flips and spins like it does when it turns around on Bespin, all of the occupants would be thrown around and probably incapacitated if not killed.

Presumably the Falcon’s artificial gravity prevents this. Just like Luke and Han can sit in the gun turrets without seatbelts even though they are facing out the top and bottom of the ship.

Were they? I thought they were both facing forward, but one was at the top and the other at the bottom.

Yes. I wrote a much lengthier post about it some time ago, but the windows you look out in the Gun turrets are flush on the top and bottom of the Falcon. So top gunner is on his back and the bottom gunner is on his belly, relative to the Falcon. ANH is really the only film that actually gets the turrets operation (based on their actual physical design) correct. TFA and TLJ take some major liberties with the physics of how the turrets could really move. Also, even back in the original EU they had the idea that the armored disc the turret window is mounted in could rotate (which is made cannon in TFA) but in reality this would mean the ladder tube you climb up or down into the turrets would not be correctly lined up anymore.

Okay, so I know this is really nerdy, but can you explain where the bunk bed in TFA/TLJ came from? IN ANH that entire area is a kind of messy black wall (you can see it when the Stormtroopers board the Falcon).

In ESB, you see Luke on the same bed.
(Basing from memory of course)

I thought so too, but it’s not in that location.

Funnily enough, I never really had a sense of the Falcon’s interior despite years of watching the OT on VHS over and over. I knew that some extra stuff had been added for TESB, but that was merely in places that hadn’t been shown in ANH.

In TFA they really did a big walkaround in the Falcon - almost like a kind of Star Tours thing. I was suddenly like “no way, that’s how it all fits together?”. So I got interested and googled ‘Millenium Falcon Interior’ and got all these perspectives from the various movies. I’m fascinated by how the makers of the new film/s recreated the set, and how much they had to accomodate discrepancies between ANH and TESB, as well as 30 years’ wear and tear (it was a similar thing with Luke’s Tatooine homestead in AOTC).

Suffice to say, if you google ‘Millenium Falcon Interior A New Hope’ you’ll see there’s no bunk bed in that spot!

I really have no life! Merry Xmas!

SilverWook said:

Maybe it was formerly a smuggling compartment re-purposed into a sleeping area?

I like it! Thanks SilverWook - now I can sleep easy! Have a great Xmas/Festivus/Life Day…

canofhumdingers said:

Collipso said:

SilverWook said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

SilverWook said:

If these guys aren’t all being sucked out into space, then a similar emergency field around a small door isn’t a stretch.

Seriously people, we’re nitpicking movies where you can hear sounds in space.

They can have shields that allow for open air on the exterior of the Death Star. Its’ that way when the Falcon lands in the first movie too. But in general I agree with your point, the scientific stuff doesn’t need to be nitpicked as long as its not obvious and really dumb. For instance, the asteroids in the asteroid field would never be that close together in real life. And when the Millenium Falcon flips and spins like it does when it turns around on Bespin, all of the occupants would be thrown around and probably incapacitated if not killed.

Presumably the Falcon’s artificial gravity prevents this. Just like Luke and Han can sit in the gun turrets without seatbelts even though they are facing out the top and bottom of the ship.

Were they? I thought they were both facing forward, but one was at the top and the other at the bottom.

Yes. I wrote a much lengthier post about it some time ago, but the windows you look out in the Gun turrets are flush on the top and bottom of the Falcon. So top gunner is on his back and the bottom gunner is on his belly, relative to the Falcon. ANH is really the only film that actually gets the turrets operation (based on their actual physical design) correct. TFA and TLJ take some major liberties with the physics of how the turrets could really move. Also, even back in the original EU they had the idea that the armored disc the turret window is mounted in could rotate (which is made cannon in TFA) but in reality this would mean the ladder tube you climb up or down into the turrets would not be correctly lined up anymore.

Okay, so I know this is really nerdy, but can you explain where the bunk bed in TFA/TLJ came from? IN ANH that entire area is a kind of messy black wall (you can see it when the Stormtroopers board the Falcon).

Hardcore Legend said:

Shopping Maul said:

Hardcore Legend said:

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Rescued a princess, helped deliver the DS plans to the rebels. He did blow up the first Death Star. Got a medal for it too. If he never did another thing after that, he would be a legend.

The shield generator mission might have not succeeded without Han being there, or Luke making the Ewoks into allies.

I’m sure 30 years on, the stories about Luke have been retold over and over to the point that they only bear passing resemblance to what actually happened.

Yeah, but I’m talking specifically about ROTJ’s climax. The whole build-up throughout the OT was about Luke being the last hope, the only hope, not abandoning his training, not giving in to the quick and easy path etc etc etc. “Only a fully trained Jedi Knight will conquer Vader and his Emperor”. Even Lucas said that Luke’s actions on Death Star II led to the Emperor’s defeat and saving the universe. But that’s just not true. Luke was irrelevant at that point.

Luke was not strong enough to defeat the Emperor on his own. He knew the only way he could do it was to turn Vader. He was willing to sacrifice his life by laying down his weapon and refusing to kill his father in hopes that he would join him in defeating the Emperor. It worked.

Not sure where the confusion is. Did you want Luke to become a superhero and physically defeat 2 full realized Sith despite receiving minimal training?

There is nothing to suggest Luke had any desire to defeat the Emperor at all. Quite the contrary, he threw his weapon aside and declared “I am a Jedi, like my father before me”. There’s no way the broken Darth Vader was in any position to help take down the Emperor at this point. Luke’s only concern in this entire process was a) getting out of the way so as not to endanger the Endor mission and b) turning Anakin to the ‘good side’. In fact he spent the entire process making sure he didn’t fight anybody, and only gave in to battling Vader when he was goaded (which apparently is wrong by Jedi standards).

So, just to recap, Luke didn’t want to fight anyone at all (rendering him entirely useless while an actual battle raged outside), was only concerned about Anakin’s spiritual welfare (again not helpful to the rebellion/battle in any way), and his only tangible contribution to this entire scenario was inadvertently (ie not purposefully because he was only concerned with his Dad’s well-being) preventing Palpatine’s possible escape from the exploding Death Star.

Which is fine (and he recruited the Ewoks as a previous poster mentioned) but none of this grants a shred of credence to the 3-film buildup that suggested Luke was the hope of the Galaxy or that Jedi themselves are a remotely good idea in this universe. If Jedi aren’t allowed to fight, turn irreversibly evil at the drop of a hat, and get cosmically forgiven for ghastly war-crimes if they selfishly save their own flesh and blood at the last minute, then I’m not so sure we want Luke to ‘pass on what he has learned’.

Even more ironically, Vader got his cosmic pardon by brutally killing the Emperor! So apparently trying to kill the Emperor because he’s slaughtering thousands of rebels is a path to the Dark Side, but killing the guy in defence of your own son is infinitely more noble and a path to the ‘good side’?

What are you talking about? The line before what you are clinging to is about how he won’t be turned to the dark side.
Furthermore, he wasn’t useless. As he says (again) he was willing to be blown up on DSII to ensure that the Emperor was onboard while the Rebels destroyed it. His part of the mission was the occupy the two most powerful beings in the galaxy.

His destiny as the Jedi saw it was to kill his father and the Emperor.
His destiny as the Sith saw it was to kill his father and join the Emperor by giving into his anger.
Luke chose a 3rd path. Turn his father to the light and defeat the Emperor.
He was willing to die rather than give into either of the two destinies the two sides saw for him. He brought balance to the Force.

Vader didn’t “brutally kill” the Emperor. He heard his son begging for ‘help’ as he was having the life shocked out of him and he threw the Emperor over a railing.

I feel like perhaps we saw two different versions of the film.

None of the ‘destiny’ stuff had any bearing on the war’s outcome whatsoever. There was no ‘balance to the Force’ in '83, but even if there was - so what? Do you really think the families of all the dead rebel pilots would be thrilled to hear Luke say “hey guys, I brought balance to the Force!”? How did Vader’s killing Palpatine 5 minutes before he would’ve been blown up anyway have any tangible effect other than fulfilling Luke and Anakin’s religious desires?

As for distracting the Emperor, there is NOTHING in the movie that suggests this was Luke’s ‘plan’. Luke’s “soon I’ll be dead, and you with me” line was him being cocky in the belief that Palpatine wasn’t privy to the rebels’ plan. And distracting from what exactly? The plan was going great. Han and Leia were captured, rebel ships were being picked off by the Death Star. What benefit was there to Luke hiding under a staircase and saying “I will not fight you”?

The things that saved the rebellion were the intervention of the Ewoks (which as another poster mentioned was thanks to Luke) and Chewie’s hijacking a Scout Walker. Luke’s battle with Vader/Palpatine was completely irrelevant to this process. The only benefit from Luke’s actions was that he accidentally created circumstances that prevented Palpatine’s possible escape from the exploding battle station.

Look, I think that ROTJ (like the prequels) is a great story told badly. I think it would have been better if Luke and the bad guys had at least been at another location - say the bridge of the Executor (without the big crash into the Death Star). I also wish he’d been proactive throughout the battle - never laying down his weapon or hiding under the stairs - but actively defying Palpatine’s actions rather than just trying to keep his Zen cool at all costs. That way you could legitimately say - irrespective of the details concerning Anakin - that Luke Skywalker destroyed the Emperor outright. This is a legend worthy of future admiration and a new Jedi Order. As it stands Luke’s actions come off as a kind of private religious trip with results that have a negligible effect on the actual battle’s outcome.

Hardcore Legend said:

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Rescued a princess, helped deliver the DS plans to the rebels. He did blow up the first Death Star. Got a medal for it too. If he never did another thing after that, he would be a legend.

The shield generator mission might have not succeeded without Han being there, or Luke making the Ewoks into allies.

I’m sure 30 years on, the stories about Luke have been retold over and over to the point that they only bear passing resemblance to what actually happened.

Yeah, but I’m talking specifically about ROTJ’s climax. The whole build-up throughout the OT was about Luke being the last hope, the only hope, not abandoning his training, not giving in to the quick and easy path etc etc etc. “Only a fully trained Jedi Knight will conquer Vader and his Emperor”. Even Lucas said that Luke’s actions on Death Star II led to the Emperor’s defeat and saving the universe. But that’s just not true. Luke was irrelevant at that point.

Luke was not strong enough to defeat the Emperor on his own. He knew the only way he could do it was to turn Vader. He was willing to sacrifice his life by laying down his weapon and refusing to kill his father in hopes that he would join him in defeating the Emperor. It worked.

Not sure where the confusion is. Did you want Luke to become a superhero and physically defeat 2 full realized Sith despite receiving minimal training?

There is nothing to suggest Luke had any desire to defeat the Emperor at all. Quite the contrary, he threw his weapon aside and declared “I am a Jedi, like my father before me”. There’s no way the broken Darth Vader was in any position to help take down the Emperor at this point. Luke’s only concern in this entire process was a) getting out of the way so as not to endanger the Endor mission and b) turning Anakin to the ‘good side’. In fact he spent the entire process making sure he didn’t fight anybody, and only gave in to battling Vader when he was goaded (which apparently is wrong by Jedi standards).

So, just to recap, Luke didn’t want to fight anyone at all (rendering him entirely useless while an actual battle raged outside), was only concerned about Anakin’s spiritual welfare (again not helpful to the rebellion/battle in any way), and his only tangible contribution to this entire scenario was inadvertently (ie not purposefully because he was only concerned with his Dad’s well-being) preventing Palpatine’s possible escape from the exploding Death Star.

Which is fine (and he recruited the Ewoks as a previous poster mentioned) but none of this grants a shred of credence to the 3-film buildup that suggested Luke was the hope of the Galaxy or that Jedi themselves are a remotely good idea in this universe. If Jedi aren’t allowed to fight, turn irreversibly evil at the drop of a hat, and get cosmically forgiven for ghastly war-crimes if they selfishly save their own flesh and blood at the last minute, then I’m not so sure we want Luke to ‘pass on what he has learned’.

Even more ironically, Vader got his cosmic pardon by brutally killing the Emperor! So apparently trying to kill the Emperor because he’s slaughtering thousands of rebels is a path to the Dark Side, but killing the guy in defence of your own son is infinitely more noble and a path to the ‘good side’?

Not sure if this has been posted here already but this could be the greatest thing I’ve ever seen! Beware haters! A positive TLJ review that might not “go the way you expect it to…”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h3Iv4oiDdw

yotsuya said:

I see Rey’s fast progress as playing catchup to Kylo. Everything she has learned as been from him. He tries to read her mind and then she reads his. He tries to use the force on her and then she uses it on the Stormtrooper. He is skilled with the lightsaber and she uses the same trick. Kylo is her teacher, not Luke. That is why she has what she needs already. Plus the patience. Her conflict is with Kylo, her equal in nearly every area. Yes, she is picking up these incredible powers, but she is facing an adversary even more powerful and practiced. I see that as her character’s main conflict. Luke’s was learning the patience to do things right. Rey has the patience and she just needs the skills and some clue how to deal with Kylo and save the galaxy. I don’t think things are as easy for her as some are making it out. The force powers are not her challenge. Kylo is her challenge. No one else who has faced him has had any impact on him. So I don’t find her fast learning of force powers to make her a Mary Sue because they only put her on equal footing with her adversary. He character journey is defined in other ways, not by the force powers she is learning. When you look at her scenes with Kylo, she has not had it easy at all. Things have not gone her way. She doesn’t have it too easy by any means.

I really like this explanation. Thanks - good food for thought.

I also seem to have been botching the quote aspect of replying to folks on this site. Sorry to anyone I’ve responded to - I didn’t mean to cut your name out! Failed I have…into exile I must go…

I am an unrepentant ROTJ apologist and I fancy myself the blue elephant in the room, as you can see from my name.

I see nothing wrong with the idea that Force sensitivity can run in families. That doesn’t mean anyone born into a family will have it nor that anybody else can’t.

Leia could well have been suppressing that part of her psyche because it was at odds with her upbringing or simply uncomfortable for her to admit. Don’t forget that Leia was the one to sense Luke hanging out under Cloud City in ESB. You could say that was all Luke’s doing or recognize it was the first inklings that Leia had latent sensitivity to the Force.

In ROTJ, when Vader referenced the possibility of using turning Leia to the dark side, that was clearly a threatening tactic, not total confidence that Leia would be powerful simply by virtue of her relation.

The idea that anybody could harness the Force if only they tried is far less compelling to me.

Firstly, let me just state that I have no desire to trash your love of ROTJ! My comments are meant in playful fun (just to be clear since internet tone can be misread as easily as Jedi prophecy!).

I’m not so much bothered by genetic Force potential as I am the extent to which the saga eventually leaned on it. The idea of Luke inheriting his Dad’s talents is fine - indeed I think it’s a big part of the SW mythos. He was a ‘great pilot’ like his father, he had much anger in him “like his father” etc. I think the Leia thing just pushed it a little too far, mainly because it was thrown in there purely to tie things up and answer the question of the ‘other hope’. The prequels then kicked the whole thing off the cliff with midichlorians and Chosen Ones and the Force conspiring to balance itself. I just prefer the more Zen version of the Force and the subtler implications of lineage/heritage presented by ANH and TESB.

The point I was making is that Rey’s powers seem to reflect that later SW idea - that she is/was somehow ‘chosen’ or special or loaded with midichlorians via a particular lineage - hence all the speculation prior to TLJ. The revelation that she’s just a regular joe (a revelation I really liked in theory) seems incongruous with her ease in mastering the Force.

There certainly are elements where there is no easily discernible reason for something, but once we go down this path…we sound like obsessed nerds.

Ha ha I think that particular starship has already sailed for me…

One of my main issues with TLJ is Rey’s character. She doesn’t actually go through any training, nor does the movie focus on her personal journey / inner struggles. Most of her time she spends just trying to get through to Luke and Kylo. Thus we are left at the end with a pretty bland protagonist heading in to the THIRD MOVIE, which is a shame because it feels like such a wasted opportunity for what could have been a really cool character.

Abrams didn’t do much better with her in TFA, but the first 10 minutes or so where she is introduced on Jakku - I thought that was a great introduction for the character. In fact, for me that’s really the only section in any of the Disney SW movies that feels like “Star Wars.” It features really solid, visual storytelling and we learn a lot about Rey in just a few short minutes. (John Williams’ theme here adds a lot as well).

The blue elephant in the room here is ROTJ. In ANH and TESB, the Force was basically space-yoga. It was something that anyone with the correct discipline/attitude etc could learn and perfect - the only caveat being that it was really difficult. It was implied that Luke might follow in his old man’s footsteps and have an aptitude for it, but that’s no crazier than potentially being a great footballer 'cos your Dad was. There was also nothing to suggest that Obi Wan and Yoda had plans for Luke. Obi was in retirement and Yoda seemed to have quit the Jedi business entirely.

ROTJ threw this all out the window by making Luke and Leia a potential threat by birthright alone (necessitated by making Leia the ‘other’ despite no previous Jedi connections whatsoever) and creating that ‘hidden from the Emperor’ nonsense. So now these abilities were inherited. Suddenly Leia was all cosmically aware (“he wasn’t, I can feel it”) purely because she was a Skywalker.

The prequels confirmed that it’s strictly genetic. Now it was all down to your midichlorian count, and Anakin happened to be loaded with these things. This accounted for his reflexes, his premonitions - plus it turned out that he was created entirely from midichlorians to fulfil a Jedi prophecy.

Don’t get me wrong - I like that TLJ tried to return the Force to its roots as just an energy field used by space-Yogis. But it’s too late because Rey exhibits exactly the kind of exaggerated powers implied by ROTJ and the prequels - inherited abilities that belong to a chosen few even in the complete absence of Jedi intervention. The best defence for her Mary Sue-ness in TFA was post-ROTJ logic - you don’t have to live in space-Tibet and meditate for 6 months to hone these powers because you can automatically have a genetic predisposition.

Which is why everyone thought she was a ‘Kenobi’ or a ‘Skywalker’ or even a ‘Palpatine’. It’s annoying (to a fan like me who hates this notion of inherited Jedi-ness) but it follows logically from what’s been established.

But Rey gets to have her cake and eat it too, because she’s a nobody. She’s an everyman/woman like Luke was in ANH with the Force as a ‘mere’ energy field, but she has prequel-level powers. This in turn trivialises the Force because, if it’s no longer genetic, then it simply must be infinitely more accessible than the first films implied.

Conclusion? TLJ is silly, but ROTJ screwed things up in the first place!

I think it’s a hard pill to swallow since Rey’s natural talent isn’t contrasted with inner conflict, or really anything obstacle wise, in the second movie of a trilogy!

I saw it twice, and as far as I can remember, I don’t think she really struggled to lift those rocks. But her surprised expression, I don’t think it’s an issue. I mean, you’ve got Luke in A New Hope, who’s a brag about sniping womp rats, shouts, “I GOT EM! I GOT EM!” when sniping those Tie Fighters from the Falcon gun. I believe it’s just a display of emotion where even though the characters are confident in their abilities, it’s a whole ’nother expectation to do it under high stake conditions, hence the surprise expression.

Still, however, the scene doesn’t really serve Rey well given again, you have people that hate Rey’s ease and use of the Force, and you have people similar to us that don’t mind Rey’s fast progression but can admit that Rey thus far doesn’t have much struggle to overcome to back up the heroic acts she’s able to pull.

I guess the whole thing really comes down to one’s own subjective credulity when it comes to the SW universe. I mean even Yoda’s X-wing gesture opens a can of worms. Okay, size matters not, so technically I should be able to hurl the Death Star into a neighbouring planet then? Clearly a lot of SW ‘logic’ comes down to how it ‘feels’ within the story.

I’m not a prequel fan, but I remember when the Jedi council decided not to train Anakin. Now Anakin was already self-trained to a point - he had super-human reflexes and a knack for premonitions. Could he have carried on his merry way and become a Sith Lord on his own? Or does training make the difference? It’s fair to say that Ep 4 implies (through its own internal logic) that Luke would never have even considered the Force - and thus never tried to learn specific Force skills - if Obi Wan hadn’t told him about it.

So I guess this is where it gets tricky. I like the idea of a ‘feral Jedi’ - someone who inadvertently learns Force techniques the same way little Annie honed his reflexes. But Rey lifting those rocks, and even the Oliver Twist stable boy moving brooms around, doesn’t feel right to me. I think you’re absolutely right about that internal struggle too.

I think there’s a key difference between ESB Luke and Rey here, and I believe you can transfer what you liked about TFA’s Rey to this film. Back in the days I also defended Rey’s progression in TFA, I pointed out that Rey developed a skill more valuable than combat prowess. What was that skill? Patience. All those years spent in isolation on Jakku, that meant many days and nights of being alone. She was also willing to wait hard long years for her supposed parents to return. So with this skill, this served as a trait that allows Rey to really soak in her surroundings, to open herself up to the light, the darkness, the life, and decay, as seen in that mediation sequence. Even in TFA, she paused for that brief moment with Kylo Ren in that duel in order to form a close bond with the Force.

So as it stands, I still don’t exactly have issues with Rey’s fast Jedi progression. Luke was pretty impatient for two movies. You could tell he wanted the Jedi Knight status NOW. Yes, Luke grew up a on a nearly desolate desert planet, but his life was much ‘easier’ in comparison to nearly every day being survival for food and shelter, alone, that Rey faced.

I agree, Luke’s life was easier, and his journey was very linear - he went from being a basically normal guy (with a gift for piloting) to learning about this Force thing to levitating small objects (with difficulty) and so on. However compressed it all was in TESB, it still followed a kind of logic. Yoda’s X-wing trick was a clear demonstration of where Luke’s abilities could lead down the track.

I had no problems with Rey learning fighting skills on Jakku, as well as developing enhanced cognitive skills via her need to survive and read people’s intentions (hence her leap to ‘mind tricks’). In fact when I first saw TFA I thought Rey was ‘sensing’ BB8 rather than hearing him. And you’re right in saying that she had a sense of patience that whiny Luke and his Dad never had!

I think TLJ may have just pushed it too far for me, but I could use another viewing at this point. Did she struggle with the rocks at all? All I recall is her holding a zillion rocks in the air and looking rather surprised.

So, what did RJ do? Did he go back to the 1977 concept of anyone who works hard at it, can be a Jedi? No, he didn’t. Rey just magically has these powers, and apparently so does the kid at the end of the film. No work required. It just awakes inside you. So, what if the Force doesn’t awake in Poe, or Finn, or some other random person?
Tough luck, I guess? Or can we expect the Force to be delivered to them as well? It got lost in the mail, or something. I think not. In short, he’s turned the Force into a lottery. Anyone can be a Jedi, if you’re one of the lucky few. I fail to see how that improves on Lucas’ original ideas, even the version of the PT, where despite the Jedi’s elitist views, anyone could theoretically become a Jedi.

Firstly let me just state that I hate the idea of Force ability being genetic. Even though this was annoyingly introduced in ROTJ as a way of validating the sudden choice of Leia as the ‘other’ (as opposed to the original idea of a sister who was being trained even as Luke was), it was at least a pretty vague notion ie the Force runs strong in my family.

Of course midichlorins changed all this!

I was actually a defender of Rey’s Mary Sue-ness in TFA. I figured she had essentially ‘self-trained’ under the harshness of her conditions without really knowing it - the same way little Anakin had honed his piloting skills without any knowledge of what he was unconsciously tapping into. I didn’t mind that she extrapolated ‘mind tricks’ from her encounter with Kylo, and again figured her environment had caused her to advance along these channels in an innocent way. For the duel with Kylo I again felt that she was just a naturally good fighter, he was significantly injured, and it ended up being more of a street fight than a Jedi showdown. That was my take anyway.

TLJ screwed this all up for me. She didn’t get any training from Luke, but apparently she’s a full-blown Samurai now. I could have lived with that, but the scene with the rocks was stupid. Yoda’s lifting Luke’s X-wing in TESB was a demonstration of mastery. Rey’s tossing CGI boulders around like styrofoam was purely 'cos she can. Hell, she was as surprised as I was!

I was really on the fence with this film. As always my ‘head canon’, which does its own thing in the same way my body rejects viruses, seems to have purged this movie and TFA along with it.

For me these Sequels I don’t like and think they take away from the OT. i.e. won’t be able to get them out of my head when I watch the OT. But I’m hoping at least a few years after Episode 9 is done that I’ll be able to put 7-9 in a “box” and be able to ignore them when watching the OT. As that’s what I have to do with the prequels when watching the OT.

The only good thing about Lucas’ complete rejection of the unaltered trilogy is that, as a fan, I see that trilogy as being in a completely separate canon. I think this hit me when Sebastian Shaw got edited out of the Force Ghost scene. I realised that the prequels simply weren’t telling the story of the elderly Anakin that I grew up with (who Lucas himself had described as ‘being in his 60s’ back in ‘83) but a ‘revised’ version of the OT where Anakin was much younger. The more Lucas tweaked the originals to fit his prequels, the more I realised that this was a separate story - a kind of alternate SW universe. Lucas’ (and Kathleen Kennedy’s) complete refusal to acknowledge the original movies as canon only solidifies this.

With TFA my ‘head canon’ was on the fence a) because I wasn’t sure about this new series yet and b) because Abrams famously said that ‘Han shot first’ (which means that, irrespective of the party line at Disney, he was seeing his film as exisiting in that original universe). So at that point I had to acknowledge that we can all take our SW canon a la carte. Even though TFA referenced ‘balance to the Force’ and ‘Clone troopers’, I felt that those references were vague enough to not necessarily be direct PT references as such.

I have to admit Luke’s referring to ‘Sidious’ in TLJ changed this for me. We’re in PT canon now as far as I’m concerned, which is okay because I don’t really like TLJ anyway. So as furious as I am that George Lucas has loudly declared the original movies to invalid, this only serves to preserve those movies in their own little canon bubble. Which is fine by me because when I watch them, I don’t feel remotely inclined to imagine a universe full of midichlorians, Jar Jar Binks, an idiotic Jedi council, or Mary Poppins Leia.

I really wonder, if Empire versus rebels 2.0, and particulary Luke’s deflation as a character, and Rey’s simultaneous rapid inflation is really worth the journey from a saga perspective. It’s an entertaining enough story, but I don’t really see what it adds to the saga as a whole. I think it actually takes away from it, to be honest, in a much more fundamental way than the PT.

I’ve gotta say Dre, I’m really on the fence here myself. As disappointed as I was/am with ROTJ as a film, I was satisfied with it as a definitive conclusion. I never got into the EU or the Marvel series beyond 1983 because I really felt the story had been told. As fun as it is to have more Star Wars, I’m finding myself increasingly drawn to the ‘head-canon’ notion of sticking with the (unaltered) OT as the real deal and seeing all other SW material as a kind of ‘what if’ fan-fic realm.

One can argue Luke diverted the Emperor from supervising the battle more closely. And nobody but the Ewoks knew about the back door to the shield generator did they?

Yeah, I remember the ROTJ novel made that point. I think Han said something about “Luke keeping the Emperor distracted” which helped me see the whole thing a bit more favourably at the time.

Ultimately I wish the Vader/Luke/Palpatine scenario had been somewhere other than the Death Star (perhaps on a Star Destroyer bridge). That way we could claim outright that Luke defeated the Emperor while the Rebels took out the battle station (rather than assuming that Luke and co. were going to be blown up anyway). That would be a worthy legend, irrespective of the details regarding Vader.

I see what you’re saying though. Thanks for the replies!

SilverWook said:

Rescued a princess, helped deliver the DS plans to the rebels. He did blow up the first Death Star. Got a medal for it too. If he never did another thing after that, he would be a legend.

The shield generator mission might have not succeeded without Han being there, or Luke making the Ewoks into allies.

I’m sure 30 years on, the stories about Luke have been retold over and over to the point that they only bear passing resemblance to what actually happened.

Yeah, but I’m talking specifically about ROTJ’s climax. The whole build-up throughout the OT was about Luke being the last hope, the only hope, not abandoning his training, not giving in to the quick and easy path etc etc etc. “Only a fully trained Jedi Knight will conquer Vader and his Emperor”. Even Lucas said that Luke’s actions on Death Star II led to the Emperor’s defeat and saving the universe. But that’s just not true. Luke was irrelevant at that point.

I just wish that Luke had actually been the one to ultimately save the galaxy. Like I said, at best you could claim that he inadvertently prevented the Emperor’s escape - but that wasn’t his intention. He merely threw his weapon aside and proclaimed “I am a Jedi!”. Meanwhile people were fighting and dying outside. Recruiting the Ewoks doesn’t really seem to justify Obi/Yoda’s 20-year wait and consequent focus over 3 movies.

I thought TLJ sold it great. They reference his act of compassion in RotJ and how it brought him to legendary status and how this led to Luke’s downfall. TLJ shows that Luke wasn’t yet fully realized as a hero, and that he still was grappling with how his actions in RotJ changed how others and he saw himself.

I’m not trolling here but I genuinely don’t understand (and haven’t since 1983) what was so great about Luke’s actions in ROTJ. Apart from removing himself so as not to endanger the mission (which was noble but certainly doesn’t inspire confidence in the notion of a new Jedi Order) all he did was get a bedside conversion for his war-criminal father. Nothing Luke did in that final scene was of any benefit to the war effort at all. At best you could say his actions inadvertently prevented Palpatine’s possible escape, but that was just a lucky by-product of Luke’s refusal to do anything. How did he gain legendary status from this?

I guess you haven’t seen any of the other movies? Force ghosts, voices, visions, telepathic long distance conversations have been happening throughout. Suddenly it happens in a film that you don’t happen to like and now you choose to call bullshit. I’m sorry that you didn’t like the movie mate, but for gods sake dry your eyes princess and give it a rest.

The great thing about this new ‘Force projection’ thing is that it makes Obi’s ‘ghost sitting casually on log’ routine in ROTJ seem a lot less ridiculous now…

I’m totally on board with Luke’s story in this movie. The shame of that moment - that one second where he contemplated killing Kylo - reminds me of the type of conflict that the prequels tried (and failed IMO) to address with Anakin. It’s the danger of premonition leading to self-fulfilling prophecy. Luke was basically put in the classic ‘would you kill baby Hitler if you could go back in time’ scenario. Luke saw history repeating itself in the most awful way, had an all-too human reaction, and paid a terrible price for it.

To me it doesn’t conflict at all with his actions in ROTJ, but I must confess to never having thought of Luke’s actions in that film as being particularly noble. Making sure he stayed ‘Zen’ and winning Vader a seat in Jedi heaven was of no help whatsoever to the people fighting and dying out in space and on Endor.

So yeah, I loved Luke in this movie.

NeverarGreat said:

At least here it’s explicit - the entire trilogy is a game of Exquisite Corpse.

But that’s also a wonderful opportunity for interpretation and re-imagining. Not even George Lucas can claim ownership of this sprawling and contradictory set of tales formerly known only as Star Wars.

Oh absolutely. And I actually like a lot of the choices that RJ made ie Rey’s parentage, Snoke’s fate, and the fact that Luke wasn’t loading up some crazy pre-emptive ‘map-fragments, R2 on a timer, Falcon on Jakku, lightsaber waiting in a castle for the right moment’ masterplan.

I’m still not quite sure why there was a fragmented map to Skywalker at all though…

I’m also somewhat murky on what kind of legend Luke had become over the years. I’m assuming he took credit for killing the Emperor on Death Star II, but did he really tell his rebel pals at the Ewok party that ol’ Vader had been his Dad and turned out to be a great guy after all? I can only imagine how deafening crickets might sound on Endor…