Shopping Maul

Creox said:

Ms. Thrawn said:

I’m subscribed to a ton of reviewers and critics on YouTube whose opinions tend to vary from one another on a lot of things. But the only name I can think of off the top of my head who gave TLJ a glowing review would be Movie Bob. Doug Walker gave it a mostly positive, if I remember right?

Other than that, my subscription updates and recommendations have been inundated with negative reviews since the movie came out. YouTube has a kind of cynical culture going to it anyway, but I’ve never seen the hate bandwagon toward a work of fiction reach “Look What This Cuh-raaazy SJW Feminist Did On Campus” levels until now. I’m pretty sure there’s what amounts to a zombie horde of angry fans waiting to rip Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson to shreds at the first opportunity, if the comments on a lot of those videos are any hint.

TLJ is just OK in my opinion, and I don’t rush to its defense. That said, if you want to call the backlash against it a little bit ridiculous, then you might have something there.

The informed and rational detractors of the film get washed up in the wave of hysteria you mention in your last sentence. That being said I find it puzzling why someone would spend so much time posting on a film they don’t like. I am talking to people like Dre who is obviously taking the time and feels passionately about his thoughts on the film. He makes good points but is unswayed so…why continue talking about it? IMO he feels (like many do in his position) that we will finally see the light and agree with him. Disney is not going to change their film.

And yes, it makes more sense to me to continue to talk about a film you like then one you dislike simply because most people are not bothered to keep engaged in activities they dislike. If I don’t like a book I stop reading, If I don’t like a song on the radio I switch stations etc. But if I DO like that song I listen to it a lot and tell other people about it.

I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I think at some level I’m hoping to be swayed. As a fan I want to be able to keep enjoying Star Wars. If someone can offer me a better way to view aspects of the film that bug me (Holdo’s withholding information, new canon regarding the Force, Luke’s personality etc) then I’m all for it. I love the imagery in TLJ and look forward to owning the blu ray for that reason, but I do struggle with the movie as a piece of canon.

The cool thing about this particular forum, for me at least, is there seems to be a nice level of civility here where we can nerd out and discuss Star Wars minutiae without insulting each other. Star Wars has always been an escape from the everyday for me, and banging on about plot points and Force lore is a nice way to carry on that proud tradition (apologies for sounding over-sentimental…)

oojason said:

Some intriguing thoughts and takes on TLJ in here (and about the current state of movie commentary)…

‘Star Wars Fans don’t deserve The Last Jedi’:-

https://medium.com/@thejohnprice/star-wars-fans-dont-deserve-the-last-jedi-5bd167dfc033

(The comments section is well worth a read after the article too)

What a total wanker (can I say that without getting banned?)…

He relies entirely on a strawman argument that depicts any detractors as simply “not understanding the movie” - which is a complete cop-out. He relies on the ‘OT was stupid too’ argument which is absurd (very few commentators see TESB as anything other than a masterful piece of quality filmmaking). His comment about SW merchandising makes no sense given that the film was a huge hit before a single toy had been released - hence the famous ‘empty box’ promotion which was responding to demand and not the other way around. I could go on. What a prat. But I guess saying so makes me an immature fanboy right?

That said, I didn’t understand why Holdo didn’t simply share her plan with Poe and spare us 45 mins of Canto Bight, so maybe I didn’t ‘get it’ after all…(tosses toy lightsaber over shoulder like immature fanboy…)

Frank your Majesty said:

You’re overthinking this. The point of Broom Boy is to show how the Force is for everyone and that you don’t need to be mentioned in a prophecy or part of a certain family to use it. And in order to establish this in a quick and subtle way, they showed him grabbing the broom. Showing his enhanced reflexes would require a way longer scene, putting too much emphasis on him. And simply mentioning his abilities in dialogue would be lazy and too on the nose.

Of course I’m overthinking this. I’m a Star Wars nerd!

Seriously though, I actually like the sentiment - that the Force is for everybody (as opposed to genetic a la the PT). But it isn’t free. In the OT (and the PT despite Midichlorians) the Force is a discipline. Luke struggled to levitate his lightsaber in the Wampa cave. He was 23 yrs-old and had been aware of his heritage for the past 3 years. He couldn’t raise his X-wing. Yoda could. This was a clear indication of learning, of slow progress, of mastering his self and his fears and his ego in order to reach for such mastery. I just happen to like that idea. If kids can levitate brooms and Rey can lift a mountain without training then Luke clearly sucked as a Jedi, 'cos apparently this stuff ain’t so difficult!

RJ had already made his point about the Force via Luke’s explanation and Rey’s parentage. We didn’t need Broom Boy. I’d have preferred the film end on the Falcon or have Broom Boy simply holding the Resistance badge and looking to the stars.

SilverWook said:

This is the same council who poo pooed that the idea the Sith had returned, never mind what Qui-Gon had to report, took a army of clones without seriously questioning who actually commissioned it, and even when tipped off by Dooku, (who they insisted would never try to kill a senator) never suspected Palpatine of being a Sith lord until it was too late. Not the brightest bunch of bulbs in the chandelier. 😛

No argument there ha ha! But, in terms of training Jedi and vetting Midichlorian-rich children, they had at least been doing this for a long time without noticeable fallout. Otherwise, like I said, there would be scores of self-trained Dark Siders running around Force-choking people and generating enough of a psychic ‘ripple’ to bring the council to attention.

To use my previous X-Men analogy, if Charles Xavier didn’t take on mutant kids, they would then be at risk of a) having no control over their powers and destroying their own lives and b) being recruited into Magneto’s brotherhood. But with Midichlorian-kids it’s clear that, if left alone, they pose no threat. Otherwise the Jedi Order would snap them all up on principle. So it follows that training is the key in the SW universe, at least as I see it.

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Not sure where you’re getting that idea about Broom Boy™. I just presumed he has latent Force abilities that are just beginning to wake up and nobody around him has picked up on it yet. Just like that kid from Tatooine who was pretty good at Pod Racing. 😉
It’s not like anybody is actively looking for Force sensitive kids at this point, at least not yet.

I’m merely projecting my own biases. I like the original idea of the Force circa '77-'80 ie an energy field that can be tapped into by anyone with the discipline/openness to do so (I believe GL called it ‘space yoga’). Yes, there was the implication that Luke had somewhat inherited his Dad’s talent, but it was still ambiguous enough to a) not be a given and b) be a potential talent that still required serious training to bloom beyond good piloting instincts.

Anakin was of course an outgrowth of the genetic certainty presented in ROTJ via the shoehorned Leia revelation. The original ‘other’ was to be someone who had trained on the other side of the galaxy - ‘trained’ being the operative word. Leia’s sudden identity switch necessitated the idea of Skywalkers being a threat to the Emperor by birthright alone. So at this point Force abilities became more strictly genetic, and this led us down Midichlorian avenue.

Anakin was conceived by Midichlorians to fulfil a Jedi prophecy - all of which I find ridiculous, but he was still only displaying rudimentary prescience (in the form of dreams) and excellent reflexes. I just find levitating objects to be a little far-fetched, especially given Luke’s slow climb to levitation proficiency. Since TFA and TLJ seemed to be ducking the ‘chosen one’/Midichlorian thing and going back to the energy field, I thought they’d also preserve the discipline/space yoga side of the Force as well. Rey’s heaving boulders about the place and Broom Boy effortlessly summoning a broom conflict with the ideas presented in the OT in my opinion. I don’t think these powers should be so superhero-ish, given what we’ve seen before. They should be earned, not just appear like Marvel mutant abilities.

Yes, that is my view as well. I would like to add, that the OT and later the PT also made clear, that in developing these powers you inevitably will be tempted by the dark side, to choose the quick and easy path. That important Star Wars theme appears to have been jettisoned as well. There’s this weird scene, where Rey according to Luke didn’t even attempt to resist the dark side, but that element is never revisited, and appears to have no bearing on the rest of the plot. All the while Kylo is simply presented as a bad egg, who just needed a little prodding from his misguided master to become the monster he was meant to be, and Rey just instantly has these powers whenever she needs them, and all the while remains as good natured as ever.

Exactly! Even with the PT’s Midichlorian thing, the Force is still something one must train to use. Otherwise Sith Lords would be popping up everywhere! Anakin was rejected by the council in TPM, so clearly they didn’t see him potentially going off and becoming a Jedi/Sith on his own. If the Force really behaved the way these new movies are implying, then the council should’ve have grabbed Anakin on the very principal that he would undoubtedly self-train anyway.

I wish that element of Rey and her ease with the Dark Side had been explored. I actually thought she was using the Dark Side when she first beat Kylo in TFA. It would have been an interesting idea to have someone who is ‘good’ be steeped in ‘bad’ methodology due to the way she nurtured her talents on Jakku. But no, the only lesson here seems to be that Rey is perfect regardless.

SilverWook said:

Not sure where you’re getting that idea about Broom Boy™. I just presumed he has latent Force abilities that are just beginning to wake up and nobody around him has picked up on it yet. Just like that kid from Tatooine who was pretty good at Pod Racing. 😉
It’s not like anybody is actively looking for Force sensitive kids at this point, at least not yet.

I’m merely projecting my own biases. I like the original idea of the Force circa '77-'80 ie an energy field that can be tapped into by anyone with the discipline/openness to do so (I believe GL called it ‘space yoga’). Yes, there was the implication that Luke had somewhat inherited his Dad’s talent, but it was still ambiguous enough to a) not be a given and b) be a potential talent that still required serious training to bloom beyond good piloting instincts.

Anakin was of course an outgrowth of the genetic certainty presented in ROTJ via the shoehorned Leia revelation. The original ‘other’ was to be someone who had trained on the other side of the galaxy - ‘trained’ being the operative word. Leia’s sudden identity switch necessitated the idea of Skywalkers being a threat to the Emperor by birthright alone. So at this point Force abilities became more strictly genetic, and this led us down Midichlorian avenue.

Anakin was conceived by Midichlorians to fulfil a Jedi prophecy - all of which I find ridiculous, but he was still only displaying rudimentary prescience (in the form of dreams) and excellent reflexes. I just find levitating objects to be a little far-fetched, especially given Luke’s slow climb to levitation proficiency. Since TFA and TLJ seemed to be ducking the ‘chosen one’/Midichlorian thing and going back to the energy field, I thought they’d also preserve the discipline/space yoga side of the Force as well. Rey’s heaving boulders about the place and Broom Boy effortlessly summoning a broom conflict with the ideas presented in the OT in my opinion. I don’t think these powers should be so superhero-ish, given what we’ve seen before. They should be earned, not just appear like Marvel mutant abilities.

My problem now is still the same one I had when I left the theatre on first viewing. I turned to my wife and said “hang on, that entire casino plot was not only a waste of time, it actually got bunches of people killed! Why the hell didn’t purple-hair just tell Poe the plan?”. I assumed I’d missed a vital piece of information.

I can handle lightspeed weaponising, Luke being Jake, Force-ghosts with new Thor powers, and the stupid idea of children getting Jedi powers like mutants from an X-Men movie - but the Holdo thing is a sticking point for me. I’ve watched Youtube videos, read articles, done everything in my power to make sense of this aspect of the movie, but I just can’t.

Which is a shame because the movie looks great and I’m keen for the Blu Ray on that basis alone.

screams in the void said:

awesome stuff folks ! thanks for posting it , that Starlog interview was great and yeah ,Marvel did come close a lot , they even got a cease and desist when they wanted to do a second Death Star so they made The Tarkin battle station story in 51-52 instead . and as was posted earlier , the debut of the Hoojibs issue had Rebels on early Speeder Bikes , a few issues down the line the furry little Lahsbees on hang gliders etc …also , here is a forum I found where someone reviews every single issue …,do not agree with everything but we all have our opinions ,interesting read anyhow …enjoy …http://classiccomics.org/thread/1039/star-wars-marvel-reviews-confessor

Really enjoying this site - thanks. I’m up to the ‘Omega Frost’ reviews - which incidentally is where I started reading the series back in 1980. Unlike the reviewer I really dug the artwork, because it felt like a great combination of typical Marvel superhero stuff and Star Wars. So this holds great memories for me.

There’s an interesting ongoing concern in the thread about Ulrich Tagge and exactly who he is. I always assumed that Motti and Tagge had been reversed in the final film, meaning that Marvel was operating under the impression that Tagge had been strangled by Vader rather than Motti. That accounts for Ulrich looking like Motti.

God I’m a nerd…

I actually prefer the Marvel version of ROTJ to the movie. The dialogue is better, the compression of the story diminishes the cuteness factor, Vader is less of a lapdog, and Luke doesn’t hide under a staircase during the final battle.

I remember at the time of TFA, JJ said something like “every SW movie needs a cantina”. It’s not a big deal I guess, but it feels like this is the overall mentality that has been applied to these films rather than any need to tell a coherent story. In the case of Snoke, clearly JJ and Kasdan were thinking “every SW movie needs an Emperor” (not to mention an Empire, a Death Star, a Tatooine, a Hoth, a Dagobah cave scene etc etc etc) without much thought beyond the visual aesthetic of such a character.

Don’t get me wrong, I like these new films, but my ‘head-canon’ seems to be veering towards seeing them as interesting alternate interpretations of SW and TESB (with a dash of ROTJ) rather than legitimate continuations of the OT.

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

ChainsawAsh said:

To be fair, that wasn’t a PT thing, that was an ROTJ thing. Look what Anakin’s spirit is wearing on Endor.

Back in '83 I assumed Anakin was appearing in Tatooine garb as a kind of symbolic ‘return to innocence’ type thing. In the original novels Anakin had been a farmer like Owen, so it made sense that he would appear in his old duds at the Ewok party. The idea that these robes were official Jedi threads is/was absurd.

When you see all three of those Jedi, and they’re all wearing basically the same thing, the implication there is clear.

Also, “original novels”?

Sorry - novelizations (or novelisations). In the SW novelization Obi Wan tells Luke that Owen had wanted Anakin (not named at this point) to stay on Tatooine and concentrate on his farming. The film itself implied that Obi Wan had recruited Luke’s father for an ‘idealistic crusade’ despite Owen thinking he should have “stayed here and not gotten involved”. So this suggested (to me) that Anakin had been a farmer. Since Anakin was in Tatooine garb at the end of ROTJ, and Lucas himself made it plain that Luke had been in Jedi-garb in ROTJ (which wasn’t tan desert-robes), I naturally assumed that ghost-Anakin was in his old desert apparel.

The idea that Obi Wan was in fact sporting official Jedi-wear (whilst in hiding mind you!) that just so happened to be identical to Tatooine desert-wear is ridiculous.

ChainsawAsh said:

To be fair, that wasn’t a PT thing, that was an ROTJ thing. Look what Anakin’s spirit is wearing on Endor.

Back in '83 I assumed Anakin was appearing in Tatooine garb as a kind of symbolic ‘return to innocence’ type thing. In the original novels Anakin had been a farmer like Owen, so it made sense that he would appear in his old duds at the Ewok party. The idea that these robes were official Jedi threads is/was absurd.

Mrebo said:

New HISHE video on TLJ, something for everyone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ

This is freakin’ hilarious! What’s scary though, is that the ending is…well…pretty damn cool…

Frank your Majesty said:

Do you mean Aargau or Aargau?

JEDIT: Lazy whoever, was lazy. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Zug_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_of_Zug
At least Laazrau, Zauhu, Urazuun, and Faargau are not in Switzerland.

Either would do I suppose! But I was of course referring to the banking planet as depicted in Marvel’s Star Wars run. I never even knew that Aargau had transcended the 80s, made it into ‘canon’, and gained some gas-giant brothers!

SilverWook said:

Same place the money for the Clone Army came from? 😛

Will the money trail lead to corrupt banking officials on Aargau…?

KILLOFFPOE said:

yotsuya said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

SilverWook said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

SilverWook said:

Are you sure someone doesn’t have a voodoo doll of you? 😉

That was no skidding turn, that was real spacecraft physics. Babylon 5 had spacecraft turn on an axis to fire like that all the time.

Star Wars doesn’t have “real spacecraft physics”. Star Wars has always been “WWII in Space”. I’ve never seen a P-51 Mustang make a turn like that!

Is there some limit to how big a spaceship can be I’m not aware of? Snoke’s ship didn’t seem that much larger than Vader’s Star Destroyer. Perhaps Snoke was compensating for something…

The Death Star and the Executor are fine because they’re the culmination of the galaxy-ruling Empire’s power. Those ships are what infinite money and a firm grasp on all supply lines and independent contractors gets you. And they’re single ships. They have to construct a new Death Star when they want another.

But the rules of the Disney Trilogy are evidently “bigger ship every movie” despite whatever happened 18 hours ago in TFA. Starkiller was ridiculous. The First Order has infinite money. Infinite crew. Despite supposedly being a “fringe group” attempting to rise to power on the edge of the galaxy.

Remember that the visual dictionary says than Snoke’s Ship has a crew of TWO MILLION the next time a disney fan tries to convince you the First Order is “small” or resource constrained.

Pretty sure P-51’s defy physics in Lucas’ Red Tails movie. Spacecraft don’t make noise in a vacuum either. 😉

I don’t take much stock in what the visual dictionary says. Would you take what they imply about Snoke as gospel?

The two million passes the eye test too just based on how freaking overly huge that ship was.

And again, I don’t care about realistic physics at all. I just want the in-universe abilities to remain constant between movies. The X-Wing powerslide was the new Legolas skateboard.

What is obvious is that Snoke and the First Order are a continuation of the Empire. From the equipment they have and the developments they have made, it seem pretty clear that they have access to the designs of the Empire and the ability to manufacture equipment on the same scale.

Well yes, that is obvious by what transpires in the movie.

But Disney and Disney Apologists are very insistent that the First Order is just a small remnant in the Unknown Regions. Despite them nuking the entire New Republic. Despite building StarKiller base and now Snoke’s ship. Despite everything in the movie telling you that they’re just as big and bad as the Empire. Despite there being only about 12 Resistance members left in the entire galaxy. And about 6 lines of dialog between the two movies to try to explain/hoodwink all of the above.

The world-building in the Disney Trilogy is creatively bankrupt. It’s as big of a problem here as the bad acting/directing were a problem in the Prequels.

As much as I enjoyed TFA, the Starkiller Base really strained the friendship. I was kind of okay with it until the scene in the Reb…uh Resistance briefing room where Poe says “this was the Death Star, this is SK base”. Until then I’d figured SK was actually a cool economical way to build a Death Star by sinking an ionic cannon into an existing celestial body and thus saving billions on housing. Instead the comparison showed that even the ‘built’ parts of SK measured several Death Stars! So yeah, where the frack did the FO get the funding for all this stuff?

lovelikewinter said:

For those of you who are questioning Luke’s actions- he’s suffering from severe depression. Depression can really fuck with you and speaking from experience you do stuff that’s not normal for you.

Yes, but the question is down to whether Luke Skywalker being depression-prone is tonally consistent with his character as established by the OT. Obviously anyone, even Luke, could succumb to depression, but that’s like saying Superman could feasibly get fat and bald. It’s possible, but does it feel right? Luke’s entire victory/arc in the OT was about his mastery of his emotions, his darker impulses. One could reasonably assume that such a person wouldn’t succumb to depression very easily. For a lot of fans, the leap from ‘eternal optimist and Jedi Knight’ to ‘defeated hobo’ is too jarring - not so much because of fan conservatism but because it doesn’t feel realistic in the context of what has gone before.

I’m not sure how I feel about it myself, but I do get why there’s a controversy here. (And by the way this post is in no way intended to trivialise yours or anyone’s experiences with these things.)

Michael Ward said:

Creox said:

With regards to the DS being able to use a hyperdrive. I am stunned that people think it wouldn’t. Space is really, really big…I mean, really big. For the DS to not be able to fly at lightspeed would render it completely useless for striking fear into the galaxy.

Of course it realisticly needs a hyperdrive, but I’m not sure if that was the original intent. In the older Superman comics stuff was always just drifting from Krypton to earth with no propulsion at all more less a hyperdrive. Writers didn’t always think that stuff through, and Lucas probably didn’t either.

Indeed, the Falcon famously went from the Anoat system to Bespin sans hyperdrive, so clearly spacial distances are not a huge concern in the SW universe (I bet there’s a debate about that little trip somewhere in these forums!)…

Frank your Majesty said:

Shopping Maul said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Why didn’t the Death Star just jump in a position where it could immediately fire at Yavin 4, instead of circling the planet for half an hour?

Because it was clearly tracking/following the Millennium Falcon. The film shows the Falcon, having come out of hyperspace, arriving at a big red planet and flying under (around) it to a little blue planet. It makes sense that the DS would follow suit and assess things from there.

Wouldn’t the tracking device show them where exactly the Falcon is in relation to the planet?

My own explanation is that there are certain hyperspace routes, which are safe to travel. Outside of these routes, you can only go under light speed. The DS could only enter Yavin’s orbit at this specific point.

The same thing applies to TLJ. Once the Resistance ships were fleeing, the nearest hyperspace access point was behind them, so the FO couldn’t simply jump ahead.

Those are great theories. In the case of the DS in ep.4 I think we’re overthinking it. It seems to me that the visuals were very deliberate in this instance, because George and co. needed that particular sense of tension for the film’s climax - hence the scenes showing the Falcon approaching Yavin and then going beyond to the moon (I think the idea of Yavin itself being a gas giant was deliberate too ie you probably can’t blow up a gas giant). Then we see the DS approaching Yavin and Tarkin gets the “moon with the base is on the far side” call. The DS has clearly followed the Falcon’s path precisely. It makes sense for the DS to come out of hyperspace right where the Falcon did and follow from there. Since Han had already established that hyperspace jumps were a precise business, it makes sense that you wouldn’t risk simply warping to the end point of a tracking exercise (the DS might collide with a planet or accidentally occupy the same space as the Yavin moon). It makes more sense to come out of warp at the edge of the system (where the Falcon did) and mark their progress from there.

By the way I had no problem with the space-chase in TLJ at all. I thought it was a really cool idea and didn’t entertain the notion of FO ships warping ahead and cutting them off. That actually sounds too complicated to me (can ships warp such tiny distances? I guess I’m agreeing with your ‘hyperspace access points’ theory in a way) and I love the sadism of Hux deciding to simply flow with it all and keep the pressure up.

In fact whatever my niggling beefs with this movie, the idea of starting the film immediately after its predecessor, and having that chase be the whole body of the movie is genius as far as I’m concerned. We’re so used to gaps of 1 to 10 years between these films, so this was a real breath of fresh air.

Frank your Majesty said:

Why didn’t the Death Star just jump in a position where it could immediately fire at Yavin 4, instead of circling the planet for half an hour?

Because it was clearly tracking/following the Millennium Falcon. The film shows the Falcon, having come out of hyperspace, arriving at a big red planet and flying under (around) it to a little blue planet. It makes sense that the DS would follow suit and assess things from there.

Anchorhead said:

oojason said:

Collipso said:

https://medium.com/@hitRECordJoe/a-new-old-skywalker-253efda3809c

Quality article that - enjoyed reading it - nice one.

Agree. Really insightful take on the journey - Luke’s in-universe as well as actual. I’ve tried to make that same point many times here as well as an Indiana Jones board I lurked on many years ago. It’s very hard to explain to twenty-year-olds how different things will be 40 years from now.

When you have no framework for what four decades even feels like, you can’t possibly grasp how the journey changes you. So many things that seem of major importance to you at 20 will be long forgotten when you’re 60.

Forty years on from that summer long ago, I’m not even similar to who I was at 15. I would have been disappointed if all we got was ROTJ Luke with a beard. I may have done a scene or two a little differently, but I have no problem with Luke having changed since he was a farm boy.

It’s interesting that one of the things most polarizing about the film is also one of the things they handled so well. It says more about the audience than it does about the movie.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you - I too would have been disappointed with a bearded ROTJ Luke - but I wonder if TLJ Luke really reflects 40 years’ worth of growth/change or has he reverted back to a pre-ROTJ state? Even Yoda steps in with some sanctimony about Luke’s “always looking to the horizon” (or something), but it was Luke’s romantic idealism that elevated him beyond the rigid ‘just kill the bad guys’ attitude of the old orthodoxy.

I’m really on the fence with all of this myself. As a fan of the (never-filmed) Kurtz version of ROTJ, I love the idea of a disillusioned Luke going into exile and struggling with the murky edges of Jedi ethics and the Force. But at the same time I’m not sure I can see Luke ever actually quitting entirely.

I’m also not certain we really want our heroes to be like normal people anyway. As a big fan of Conan the Barbarian, I recall reading somewhere that writer/director John Milius intended a sequel where old King Conan had lost his mojo and was sitting around getting fat and letting his fighting skills go to hell. Again, a disillusioned old Conan being somewhat broken and grizzled on his throne sounds cool. But slow and fat? Sure, normal people get slow and fat - but not Conan. It’s just not in his character, realistic or no.

I think the controversy around Luke is more about whether his actions are in character and true to the mythos, rather than whether people just can’t handle change. It’s a bit like having a movie about Spider-Man in his 60s where Peter Parker is all “screw responsibility - just give me power!”. It might be feasible that he go through such a jarring ethical conversion, but it doesn’t necessarily make for a good Spidey tale.

Again, not disagreeing so much as just thinking out loud…

https://medium.com/@goddammitstacey/star-wars-the-last-jedi-has-a-writing-problem-a19897a9c8b9

Underneath the JGL article is this even better (IMO) article on the writing of TLJ. This one pretty well sums up why the Holdo plot was a mess…

Mrebo said:

Shopping Maul said:

Why would Rey even know about Anakin’s bedside conversion? I can’t imagine that any rebel worth their salt would be impressed by the notion that Darth Vader’s soul was saved at the last minute. How did this so-called legend spread? And why?
It would’ve been so much better if Rey had simply said “you defeated the Emperor at the battle of Endor!” and Luke had responded with “well, it was a little more complicated than that”. Having the whole Vader/Anakin story become legend makes no sense to me.

But everyone in the galaxy saw the movies! The reaction video of Ben watching ESB is priceless. When he finds out about Vader being Luke’s father he tears Leia and Han’s living room apart. That’s when he was sent off to Luke.

Ha ha, plus he was somewhat grossed out when Mom gave Uncle Luke that big kiss!

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

By that logic, Obi Wan and Yoda are even bigger failures. 😉

They are failures for not recognizing the risk Anakin presented, and for failing to stop Palpatine, but they at least did everything in their power to reverse the situation. In my view Luke is a far bigger failure, for not even attempting to fix his mistake, and refusing to help even when he was asked in a most desperate hour. He came around it the end, but only when the situation had completely spun out of control, something that might not have happened, if he had acted like a true Jedi years earlier.

Well, this would devolve into a lot of prequel talk, but let’s just say that Obi-wan, Yoda, and Mace are responsible for Anakin’s fall. It was a failure to teach him how to handle his emotions. Luke thinks he made the same mistake with Ben, but the conversation between Han and Leia clearly shows that Ben was troubled long before training with Luke. Luke did fail to see the darkness in Ben much as the PT Jedi failed to sense Palpatine and Anakin’s weakness.

As for Luke’s fame post ROTJ, the galaxy would want to know how Vader and the Emperor died. And I’m sure Han and Leia had a hand in spreading the word. As has been pointed out before, this is the stuff of legends. But TFA made it clear that the events of the OT were widely known. Rey heard about them on Jakku.

Yes, but not necessarily the specifics of Vader’s redemption. Imagine Luke arriving at the Ewok party and telling the rebels - many of whom would have lost wives and kids and friends and entire worlds to Vader and his Empire - that Vader was his Dad and that he’d turned out to be a swell guy! I mean Luke would’ve been lynched, and rightly so. It just seems to me that the only thing worthy of ‘legend’ is the notion that a Jedi named Luke Skywalker defeated Emperor Palpatine. Beyond that vague ‘fact’, Luke’s story is merely a kind of self-absorbed religious family drama rather than the stuff of legends.

Funnily enough before I wrote this post, my wife pointed out that Leia may have told Rey the specifics of Vader’s redemption just before sending Rey to meet Luke. That makes more sense to me than a legend springing from Luke’s having his butt saved by Dad who’d had a sudden change of heart (while the actual war raged outside).

Why would Rey even know about Anakin’s bedside conversion? I can’t imagine that any rebel worth their salt would be impressed by the notion that Darth Vader’s soul was saved at the last minute. How did this so-called legend spread? And why?
It would’ve been so much better if Rey had simply said “you defeated the Emperor at the battle of Endor!” and Luke had responded with “well, it was a little more complicated than that”. Having the whole Vader/Anakin story become legend makes no sense to me.