Shopping Maul

Mjolnir Mark IV said:

Great post - pretty much agree with everything here.

The only thing I will say is that I liked the 3 versions of the Kylo/Luke incident. It was an interesting exercise in personal perspective given that each viewpoint was so different.

I will never understand why Holdo didn’t just tell Poe her plan and save us from the entirely useless (and actually detrimental) Canto Bight arc.

You’re right about the Yoda/Luke dynamic. Luke actually surpassed his mentors in ROTJ. His compassion outweighed their “just kill the bad guys” stance. It’s ludicrous that Yoda would be back lecturing Luke about “always looking to the horizon” when it was precisely that sense of emotional romanticism that won the day in Ep 6.

I finally got the Blu Ray two days ago and watched it, making this my third time. To me it is/was akin to going out on a date with the most gorgeous person you’ve ever seen, and every time the conversation seems to be going well he/she drops something so stupid/offensive that you’re not even sure you heard right. This keeps happening until, by the end of the date, you have to concede that he/she is great to look at but - to be honest - that’s largely because he/she reminds you of your high school sweetheart.

Creox said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

Ms. Thrawn said:

I’m subscribed to a ton of reviewers and critics on YouTube whose opinions tend to vary from one another on a lot of things. But the only name I can think of off the top of my head who gave TLJ a glowing review would be Movie Bob. Doug Walker gave it a mostly positive, if I remember right?

Other than that, my subscription updates and recommendations have been inundated with negative reviews since the movie came out. YouTube has a kind of cynical culture going to it anyway, but I’ve never seen the hate bandwagon toward a work of fiction reach “Look What This Cuh-raaazy SJW Feminist Did On Campus” levels until now. I’m pretty sure there’s what amounts to a zombie horde of angry fans waiting to rip Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson to shreds at the first opportunity, if the comments on a lot of those videos are any hint.

TLJ is just OK in my opinion, and I don’t rush to its defense. That said, if you want to call the backlash against it a little bit ridiculous, then you might have something there.

The informed and rational detractors of the film get washed up in the wave of hysteria you mention in your last sentence. That being said I find it puzzling why someone would spend so much time posting on a film they don’t like. I am talking to people like Dre who is obviously taking the time and feels passionately about his thoughts on the film. He makes good points but is unswayed so…why continue talking about it? IMO he feels (like many do in his position) that we will finally see the light and agree with him. Disney is not going to change their film.

That is a pretty crass assumption. Why should you not want to discuss something you feel passionate about? Do you think it gives me discomfort? Why do I need to be swayed, and why should I desire others to see the light? Why can’t it just be about exchanging ideas? Should this forum just be an echo chamber for positive opinions?

And yes, it makes more sense to me to continue to talk about a film you like then one you dislike simply because most people are not bothered to keep engaged in activities they dislike. If I don’t like a book I stop reading, If I don’t like a song on the radio I switch stations etc. But if I DO like that song I listen to it a lot and tell other people about it.

There are whole sections in this forum devoted to stuff many people don’t like: the Special Editions, and the PT. These films and versions have existed for decades, and people are still discussing them, more often than not in a negative light. So, why should I not be discussing TLJ after just three months?

Remember: the greatest teacher failure is, and in my view TLJ is a failure, and there’s a lot to learn from this particular failure in terms of my own appreciation of the Star Wars universe and works of fiction in general.

I don’t think it’s crass at all. I get speaking your mind on a flick that bugs you, disappoints you…but to talk about it for months? That I don’t get. How many times do the same talking points have to be brought up before it gets old?

If you feel passionately about this film then I am truly puzzled because your posts are mostly quite critical.

I am more perplexed about your posts then angry…

He feels passionately about Star Wars. The Last Jedi is a part of Star Wars. It’s not just a movie he was disappointed in.

As do I. I saw SW in a theater in '77 as a 12 year old boy and haven’t looked back since. I have very mixed feelings about the PT as many here do but don’t spend a lot of time debating minutia about them to point out their flaws.

When you are talking about debate among an singular group of people (mostly) as with this forum when does it become obvious that you’re just spinning your wheels and getting nowhere?

Maybe it’s just for the entertainment of debating??

I guess it’s really down to one’s personal motivation. I just love talking about Star Wars. Like you I saw SW as a kid in ‘77 and have watched the saga morph and grow, even as my own head-canon and biases were pushed and pulled by comics and prequels and now the new movies. I’m fascinated by what peoples’ particular ‘canon limits’ are and I just think that nerding out over all this stuff is fun.

My own head-canon has proven flexible too. I was 100% on board with the prequels as they emerged, but over time found myself rejecting them and settling into a more conservative ‘unaltered OT only’ position. But that doesn’t mean that I now hate the prequels or don’t like discussing them.

TLJ is fascinating because it has been so polarising. For some it is a poorly written mess and for others a work of total genius. So I just enjoy picking it apart and discussing it through the lens of my own own (and others’) certain points of view. Yes, there is an element of wheel spinning, but I think it’s less about simply hating on TLJ and more about using the polarisation a means to address the saga as a whole.

Ms. Thrawn said:

Even if we count the prequels for fun . . . the impression I got from the original six films is that the Jedi viewed “bring balance to the Force” as “make sure the light side wins”. Whether or not that qualifies as balance is up in the air, but it at least makes sense inside the story. Luke helps turn Vader back into Anakin, who then kills the Emperor.

Then TLJ throws a monkey wrench by implying that the Force tries to balance itself between light and dark. Snoke could’ve just been sharing his weird opinion, but it goes too far in explaining Rey’s aptitude.

As far as the Force having a will? That could very well be but a superstition among Jedi and to a lesser extent Sith (who like to preach about destiny). There are ghosts living in the spiritual realm who have minds of their own, I guess. Maybe “will of the Force” is the majority vote of a ghost committee. 😛

Your interpretation of the awakening is nice and sound. I agree. 😃

I don’t recall Snoke’s exact speech about ‘balance’ in TLJ (looking forward to revisiting it all on Bluray next week!) but the idea of the Force automatically balancing itself renders the whole thing rather redundant. Luckily with all the broad strokes painted throughout the saga we can generally take our canon a la carte!

The ghost committee is interesting, although it would have to be comprised only of Qui Gon, Yoda, Obi Wan, and a somewhat red-faced Anakin (not sure anyone else learned netherworld conversion techniques). Perhaps ol’ Plagueis is there too wondering why all these Jedi are standing around smiling!

Ms. Thrawn said:

But the Force had awoken by the time the boy summoned the broom. Didn’t you feel it?

“…yes” (spoken in deep menacing voice).

Seriously though, I myself (and this is entirely my own bias here) don’t like or embrace the idea of the Force having a will of its own. I don’t even like the ‘balance’ stuff. There was no ‘balance to the Force’ back in '83, or even a Sith ‘rule of 2’ for that matter. The Force was just an energy and certain skilled people got to tap into it, for good or for ill.

When Snoke said “there has been an awakening” I took it as “someone is tapping into it in a way we haven’t seen in a long time” - that being Rey who, to my mind, had huge natural potential and had basically ‘self-trained’ to an extent under the duress of her Jakku lifestyle. Even though Rey is…uh…overpowered…there was still a logic to it that didn’t necessarily point to the Force having its own will or trotting out another ‘chosen one’. I just thought Snoke was feeling the ripple of Rey’s coming into her powers.

I can’t explain Broom Boy. Maybe he was bitten by a radioactive Lightsaber…

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

Frank your Majesty said:

You’re overthinking this. The point of Broom Boy is to show how the Force is for everyone and that you don’t need to be mentioned in a prophecy or part of a certain family to use it. And in order to establish this in a quick and subtle way, they showed him grabbing the broom. Showing his enhanced reflexes would require a way longer scene, putting too much emphasis on him. And simply mentioning his abilities in dialogue would be lazy and too on the nose.

Of course I’m overthinking this. I’m a Star Wars nerd!

Seriously though, I actually like the sentiment - that the Force is for everybody (as opposed to genetic a la the PT). But it isn’t free. In the OT (and the PT despite Midichlorians) the Force is a discipline. Luke struggled to levitate his lightsaber in the Wampa cave. He was 23 yrs-old and had been aware of his heritage for the past 3 years. He couldn’t raise his X-wing. Yoda could. This was a clear indication of learning, of slow progress, of mastering his self and his fears and his ego in order to reach for such mastery. I just happen to like that idea. If kids can levitate brooms and Rey can lift a mountain without training then Luke clearly sucked as a Jedi, 'cos apparently this stuff ain’t so difficult!

RJ had already made his point about the Force via Luke’s explanation and Rey’s parentage. We didn’t need Broom Boy. I’d have preferred the film end on the Falcon or have Broom Boy simply holding the Resistance badge and looking to the stars.

Luke was also injured, upside down, (blood rush to the head!) and probably already suffering from the cold.
Broom Boy’s™ broom was not stuck in a pile of snow either.

Yes, but that wasn’t the point of Luke’s scene. It wasn’t a demonstration in ‘levitation under duress’. It was to show that Luke had been expanding upon what he’d learned in the previous film whilst adding to the Force powers lexicon. Given Luke’s progressive struggle with levitation throughout TESB, it naturally follows that this is something of a difficult skill to master. Indeed, Yoda takes Luke on largely on the basis that he’s ‘learned so much’ already. Surely Yoda would’ve said “heh, levitation a five-year old novice could achieve without effort!” if it really was such a casual ability on the Jedi scale.

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

Creox said:

Ms. Thrawn said:

I’m subscribed to a ton of reviewers and critics on YouTube whose opinions tend to vary from one another on a lot of things. But the only name I can think of off the top of my head who gave TLJ a glowing review would be Movie Bob. Doug Walker gave it a mostly positive, if I remember right?

Other than that, my subscription updates and recommendations have been inundated with negative reviews since the movie came out. YouTube has a kind of cynical culture going to it anyway, but I’ve never seen the hate bandwagon toward a work of fiction reach “Look What This Cuh-raaazy SJW Feminist Did On Campus” levels until now. I’m pretty sure there’s what amounts to a zombie horde of angry fans waiting to rip Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson to shreds at the first opportunity, if the comments on a lot of those videos are any hint.

TLJ is just OK in my opinion, and I don’t rush to its defense. That said, if you want to call the backlash against it a little bit ridiculous, then you might have something there.

The informed and rational detractors of the film get washed up in the wave of hysteria you mention in your last sentence. That being said I find it puzzling why someone would spend so much time posting on a film they don’t like. I am talking to people like Dre who is obviously taking the time and feels passionately about his thoughts on the film. He makes good points but is unswayed so…why continue talking about it? IMO he feels (like many do in his position) that we will finally see the light and agree with him. Disney is not going to change their film.

And yes, it makes more sense to me to continue to talk about a film you like then one you dislike simply because most people are not bothered to keep engaged in activities they dislike. If I don’t like a book I stop reading, If I don’t like a song on the radio I switch stations etc. But if I DO like that song I listen to it a lot and tell other people about it.

I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I think at some level I’m hoping to be swayed. As a fan I want to be able to keep enjoying Star Wars. If someone can offer me a better way to view aspects of the film that bug me (Holdo’s withholding information, new canon regarding the Force, Luke’s personality etc) then I’m all for it.

Thing is, those are things that are all explained in the film and have been discussed ad nauseam here. Either you buy it, or you don’t. Sounds like you don’t, and I’m not sure there’s anything that could be added to the last 241 pages that’d sway you one way or the other.

Well ya can’t blame a guy for trying!

No-one has necessarily ‘swayed’ me here - that’s true - although I enjoy the discourse and respect those involved (mostly). Perhaps ‘swayed’ is the wrong word. But one example of what I was talking about is a series of Youtube vids by someone called Mauler (not sure if you’ve seen them). Now this guys rips into TLJ like nothing else, and I think his points are spot on and well thought out and certainly not troll-like. But I don’t agree with all of his points despite my respect for his position and reasons, which gives me scope to see aspects of the movie in a new light and appreciate it a little more.

Creox said:

Ms. Thrawn said:

I’m subscribed to a ton of reviewers and critics on YouTube whose opinions tend to vary from one another on a lot of things. But the only name I can think of off the top of my head who gave TLJ a glowing review would be Movie Bob. Doug Walker gave it a mostly positive, if I remember right?

Other than that, my subscription updates and recommendations have been inundated with negative reviews since the movie came out. YouTube has a kind of cynical culture going to it anyway, but I’ve never seen the hate bandwagon toward a work of fiction reach “Look What This Cuh-raaazy SJW Feminist Did On Campus” levels until now. I’m pretty sure there’s what amounts to a zombie horde of angry fans waiting to rip Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson to shreds at the first opportunity, if the comments on a lot of those videos are any hint.

TLJ is just OK in my opinion, and I don’t rush to its defense. That said, if you want to call the backlash against it a little bit ridiculous, then you might have something there.

The informed and rational detractors of the film get washed up in the wave of hysteria you mention in your last sentence. That being said I find it puzzling why someone would spend so much time posting on a film they don’t like. I am talking to people like Dre who is obviously taking the time and feels passionately about his thoughts on the film. He makes good points but is unswayed so…why continue talking about it? IMO he feels (like many do in his position) that we will finally see the light and agree with him. Disney is not going to change their film.

And yes, it makes more sense to me to continue to talk about a film you like then one you dislike simply because most people are not bothered to keep engaged in activities they dislike. If I don’t like a book I stop reading, If I don’t like a song on the radio I switch stations etc. But if I DO like that song I listen to it a lot and tell other people about it.

I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I think at some level I’m hoping to be swayed. As a fan I want to be able to keep enjoying Star Wars. If someone can offer me a better way to view aspects of the film that bug me (Holdo’s withholding information, new canon regarding the Force, Luke’s personality etc) then I’m all for it. I love the imagery in TLJ and look forward to owning the blu ray for that reason, but I do struggle with the movie as a piece of canon.

The cool thing about this particular forum, for me at least, is there seems to be a nice level of civility here where we can nerd out and discuss Star Wars minutiae without insulting each other. Star Wars has always been an escape from the everyday for me, and banging on about plot points and Force lore is a nice way to carry on that proud tradition (apologies for sounding over-sentimental…)

oojason said:

Some intriguing thoughts and takes on TLJ in here (and about the current state of movie commentary)…

‘Star Wars Fans don’t deserve The Last Jedi’:-

https://medium.com/@thejohnprice/star-wars-fans-dont-deserve-the-last-jedi-5bd167dfc033

(The comments section is well worth a read after the article too)

What a total wanker (can I say that without getting banned?)…

He relies entirely on a strawman argument that depicts any detractors as simply “not understanding the movie” - which is a complete cop-out. He relies on the ‘OT was stupid too’ argument which is absurd (very few commentators see TESB as anything other than a masterful piece of quality filmmaking). His comment about SW merchandising makes no sense given that the film was a huge hit before a single toy had been released - hence the famous ‘empty box’ promotion which was responding to demand and not the other way around. I could go on. What a prat. But I guess saying so makes me an immature fanboy right?

That said, I didn’t understand why Holdo didn’t simply share her plan with Poe and spare us 45 mins of Canto Bight, so maybe I didn’t ‘get it’ after all…(tosses toy lightsaber over shoulder like immature fanboy…)

Frank your Majesty said:

You’re overthinking this. The point of Broom Boy is to show how the Force is for everyone and that you don’t need to be mentioned in a prophecy or part of a certain family to use it. And in order to establish this in a quick and subtle way, they showed him grabbing the broom. Showing his enhanced reflexes would require a way longer scene, putting too much emphasis on him. And simply mentioning his abilities in dialogue would be lazy and too on the nose.

Of course I’m overthinking this. I’m a Star Wars nerd!

Seriously though, I actually like the sentiment - that the Force is for everybody (as opposed to genetic a la the PT). But it isn’t free. In the OT (and the PT despite Midichlorians) the Force is a discipline. Luke struggled to levitate his lightsaber in the Wampa cave. He was 23 yrs-old and had been aware of his heritage for the past 3 years. He couldn’t raise his X-wing. Yoda could. This was a clear indication of learning, of slow progress, of mastering his self and his fears and his ego in order to reach for such mastery. I just happen to like that idea. If kids can levitate brooms and Rey can lift a mountain without training then Luke clearly sucked as a Jedi, 'cos apparently this stuff ain’t so difficult!

RJ had already made his point about the Force via Luke’s explanation and Rey’s parentage. We didn’t need Broom Boy. I’d have preferred the film end on the Falcon or have Broom Boy simply holding the Resistance badge and looking to the stars.

SilverWook said:

This is the same council who poo pooed that the idea the Sith had returned, never mind what Qui-Gon had to report, took a army of clones without seriously questioning who actually commissioned it, and even when tipped off by Dooku, (who they insisted would never try to kill a senator) never suspected Palpatine of being a Sith lord until it was too late. Not the brightest bunch of bulbs in the chandelier. 😛

No argument there ha ha! But, in terms of training Jedi and vetting Midichlorian-rich children, they had at least been doing this for a long time without noticeable fallout. Otherwise, like I said, there would be scores of self-trained Dark Siders running around Force-choking people and generating enough of a psychic ‘ripple’ to bring the council to attention.

To use my previous X-Men analogy, if Charles Xavier didn’t take on mutant kids, they would then be at risk of a) having no control over their powers and destroying their own lives and b) being recruited into Magneto’s brotherhood. But with Midichlorian-kids it’s clear that, if left alone, they pose no threat. Otherwise the Jedi Order would snap them all up on principle. So it follows that training is the key in the SW universe, at least as I see it.

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Not sure where you’re getting that idea about Broom Boy™. I just presumed he has latent Force abilities that are just beginning to wake up and nobody around him has picked up on it yet. Just like that kid from Tatooine who was pretty good at Pod Racing. 😉
It’s not like anybody is actively looking for Force sensitive kids at this point, at least not yet.

I’m merely projecting my own biases. I like the original idea of the Force circa '77-'80 ie an energy field that can be tapped into by anyone with the discipline/openness to do so (I believe GL called it ‘space yoga’). Yes, there was the implication that Luke had somewhat inherited his Dad’s talent, but it was still ambiguous enough to a) not be a given and b) be a potential talent that still required serious training to bloom beyond good piloting instincts.

Anakin was of course an outgrowth of the genetic certainty presented in ROTJ via the shoehorned Leia revelation. The original ‘other’ was to be someone who had trained on the other side of the galaxy - ‘trained’ being the operative word. Leia’s sudden identity switch necessitated the idea of Skywalkers being a threat to the Emperor by birthright alone. So at this point Force abilities became more strictly genetic, and this led us down Midichlorian avenue.

Anakin was conceived by Midichlorians to fulfil a Jedi prophecy - all of which I find ridiculous, but he was still only displaying rudimentary prescience (in the form of dreams) and excellent reflexes. I just find levitating objects to be a little far-fetched, especially given Luke’s slow climb to levitation proficiency. Since TFA and TLJ seemed to be ducking the ‘chosen one’/Midichlorian thing and going back to the energy field, I thought they’d also preserve the discipline/space yoga side of the Force as well. Rey’s heaving boulders about the place and Broom Boy effortlessly summoning a broom conflict with the ideas presented in the OT in my opinion. I don’t think these powers should be so superhero-ish, given what we’ve seen before. They should be earned, not just appear like Marvel mutant abilities.

Yes, that is my view as well. I would like to add, that the OT and later the PT also made clear, that in developing these powers you inevitably will be tempted by the dark side, to choose the quick and easy path. That important Star Wars theme appears to have been jettisoned as well. There’s this weird scene, where Rey according to Luke didn’t even attempt to resist the dark side, but that element is never revisited, and appears to have no bearing on the rest of the plot. All the while Kylo is simply presented as a bad egg, who just needed a little prodding from his misguided master to become the monster he was meant to be, and Rey just instantly has these powers whenever she needs them, and all the while remains as good natured as ever.

Exactly! Even with the PT’s Midichlorian thing, the Force is still something one must train to use. Otherwise Sith Lords would be popping up everywhere! Anakin was rejected by the council in TPM, so clearly they didn’t see him potentially going off and becoming a Jedi/Sith on his own. If the Force really behaved the way these new movies are implying, then the council should’ve have grabbed Anakin on the very principal that he would undoubtedly self-train anyway.

I wish that element of Rey and her ease with the Dark Side had been explored. I actually thought she was using the Dark Side when she first beat Kylo in TFA. It would have been an interesting idea to have someone who is ‘good’ be steeped in ‘bad’ methodology due to the way she nurtured her talents on Jakku. But no, the only lesson here seems to be that Rey is perfect regardless.

SilverWook said:

Not sure where you’re getting that idea about Broom Boy™. I just presumed he has latent Force abilities that are just beginning to wake up and nobody around him has picked up on it yet. Just like that kid from Tatooine who was pretty good at Pod Racing. 😉
It’s not like anybody is actively looking for Force sensitive kids at this point, at least not yet.

I’m merely projecting my own biases. I like the original idea of the Force circa '77-'80 ie an energy field that can be tapped into by anyone with the discipline/openness to do so (I believe GL called it ‘space yoga’). Yes, there was the implication that Luke had somewhat inherited his Dad’s talent, but it was still ambiguous enough to a) not be a given and b) be a potential talent that still required serious training to bloom beyond good piloting instincts.

Anakin was of course an outgrowth of the genetic certainty presented in ROTJ via the shoehorned Leia revelation. The original ‘other’ was to be someone who had trained on the other side of the galaxy - ‘trained’ being the operative word. Leia’s sudden identity switch necessitated the idea of Skywalkers being a threat to the Emperor by birthright alone. So at this point Force abilities became more strictly genetic, and this led us down Midichlorian avenue.

Anakin was conceived by Midichlorians to fulfil a Jedi prophecy - all of which I find ridiculous, but he was still only displaying rudimentary prescience (in the form of dreams) and excellent reflexes. I just find levitating objects to be a little far-fetched, especially given Luke’s slow climb to levitation proficiency. Since TFA and TLJ seemed to be ducking the ‘chosen one’/Midichlorian thing and going back to the energy field, I thought they’d also preserve the discipline/space yoga side of the Force as well. Rey’s heaving boulders about the place and Broom Boy effortlessly summoning a broom conflict with the ideas presented in the OT in my opinion. I don’t think these powers should be so superhero-ish, given what we’ve seen before. They should be earned, not just appear like Marvel mutant abilities.

My problem now is still the same one I had when I left the theatre on first viewing. I turned to my wife and said “hang on, that entire casino plot was not only a waste of time, it actually got bunches of people killed! Why the hell didn’t purple-hair just tell Poe the plan?”. I assumed I’d missed a vital piece of information.

I can handle lightspeed weaponising, Luke being Jake, Force-ghosts with new Thor powers, and the stupid idea of children getting Jedi powers like mutants from an X-Men movie - but the Holdo thing is a sticking point for me. I’ve watched Youtube videos, read articles, done everything in my power to make sense of this aspect of the movie, but I just can’t.

Which is a shame because the movie looks great and I’m keen for the Blu Ray on that basis alone.

screams in the void said:

awesome stuff folks ! thanks for posting it , that Starlog interview was great and yeah ,Marvel did come close a lot , they even got a cease and desist when they wanted to do a second Death Star so they made The Tarkin battle station story in 51-52 instead . and as was posted earlier , the debut of the Hoojibs issue had Rebels on early Speeder Bikes , a few issues down the line the furry little Lahsbees on hang gliders etc …also , here is a forum I found where someone reviews every single issue …,do not agree with everything but we all have our opinions ,interesting read anyhow …enjoy …http://classiccomics.org/thread/1039/star-wars-marvel-reviews-confessor

Really enjoying this site - thanks. I’m up to the ‘Omega Frost’ reviews - which incidentally is where I started reading the series back in 1980. Unlike the reviewer I really dug the artwork, because it felt like a great combination of typical Marvel superhero stuff and Star Wars. So this holds great memories for me.

There’s an interesting ongoing concern in the thread about Ulrich Tagge and exactly who he is. I always assumed that Motti and Tagge had been reversed in the final film, meaning that Marvel was operating under the impression that Tagge had been strangled by Vader rather than Motti. That accounts for Ulrich looking like Motti.

God I’m a nerd…

I actually prefer the Marvel version of ROTJ to the movie. The dialogue is better, the compression of the story diminishes the cuteness factor, Vader is less of a lapdog, and Luke doesn’t hide under a staircase during the final battle.

I remember at the time of TFA, JJ said something like “every SW movie needs a cantina”. It’s not a big deal I guess, but it feels like this is the overall mentality that has been applied to these films rather than any need to tell a coherent story. In the case of Snoke, clearly JJ and Kasdan were thinking “every SW movie needs an Emperor” (not to mention an Empire, a Death Star, a Tatooine, a Hoth, a Dagobah cave scene etc etc etc) without much thought beyond the visual aesthetic of such a character.

Don’t get me wrong, I like these new films, but my ‘head-canon’ seems to be veering towards seeing them as interesting alternate interpretations of SW and TESB (with a dash of ROTJ) rather than legitimate continuations of the OT.

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

ChainsawAsh said:

To be fair, that wasn’t a PT thing, that was an ROTJ thing. Look what Anakin’s spirit is wearing on Endor.

Back in '83 I assumed Anakin was appearing in Tatooine garb as a kind of symbolic ‘return to innocence’ type thing. In the original novels Anakin had been a farmer like Owen, so it made sense that he would appear in his old duds at the Ewok party. The idea that these robes were official Jedi threads is/was absurd.

When you see all three of those Jedi, and they’re all wearing basically the same thing, the implication there is clear.

Also, “original novels”?

Sorry - novelizations (or novelisations). In the SW novelization Obi Wan tells Luke that Owen had wanted Anakin (not named at this point) to stay on Tatooine and concentrate on his farming. The film itself implied that Obi Wan had recruited Luke’s father for an ‘idealistic crusade’ despite Owen thinking he should have “stayed here and not gotten involved”. So this suggested (to me) that Anakin had been a farmer. Since Anakin was in Tatooine garb at the end of ROTJ, and Lucas himself made it plain that Luke had been in Jedi-garb in ROTJ (which wasn’t tan desert-robes), I naturally assumed that ghost-Anakin was in his old desert apparel.

The idea that Obi Wan was in fact sporting official Jedi-wear (whilst in hiding mind you!) that just so happened to be identical to Tatooine desert-wear is ridiculous.

ChainsawAsh said:

To be fair, that wasn’t a PT thing, that was an ROTJ thing. Look what Anakin’s spirit is wearing on Endor.

Back in '83 I assumed Anakin was appearing in Tatooine garb as a kind of symbolic ‘return to innocence’ type thing. In the original novels Anakin had been a farmer like Owen, so it made sense that he would appear in his old duds at the Ewok party. The idea that these robes were official Jedi threads is/was absurd.

Mrebo said:

New HISHE video on TLJ, something for everyone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ

This is freakin’ hilarious! What’s scary though, is that the ending is…well…pretty damn cool…

Frank your Majesty said:

Do you mean Aargau or Aargau?

JEDIT: Lazy whoever, was lazy. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Zug_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_of_Zug
At least Laazrau, Zauhu, Urazuun, and Faargau are not in Switzerland.

Either would do I suppose! But I was of course referring to the banking planet as depicted in Marvel’s Star Wars run. I never even knew that Aargau had transcended the 80s, made it into ‘canon’, and gained some gas-giant brothers!

SilverWook said:

Same place the money for the Clone Army came from? 😛

Will the money trail lead to corrupt banking officials on Aargau…?

KILLOFFPOE said:

yotsuya said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

SilverWook said:

KILLOFFPOE said:

SilverWook said:

Are you sure someone doesn’t have a voodoo doll of you? 😉

That was no skidding turn, that was real spacecraft physics. Babylon 5 had spacecraft turn on an axis to fire like that all the time.

Star Wars doesn’t have “real spacecraft physics”. Star Wars has always been “WWII in Space”. I’ve never seen a P-51 Mustang make a turn like that!

Is there some limit to how big a spaceship can be I’m not aware of? Snoke’s ship didn’t seem that much larger than Vader’s Star Destroyer. Perhaps Snoke was compensating for something…

The Death Star and the Executor are fine because they’re the culmination of the galaxy-ruling Empire’s power. Those ships are what infinite money and a firm grasp on all supply lines and independent contractors gets you. And they’re single ships. They have to construct a new Death Star when they want another.

But the rules of the Disney Trilogy are evidently “bigger ship every movie” despite whatever happened 18 hours ago in TFA. Starkiller was ridiculous. The First Order has infinite money. Infinite crew. Despite supposedly being a “fringe group” attempting to rise to power on the edge of the galaxy.

Remember that the visual dictionary says than Snoke’s Ship has a crew of TWO MILLION the next time a disney fan tries to convince you the First Order is “small” or resource constrained.

Pretty sure P-51’s defy physics in Lucas’ Red Tails movie. Spacecraft don’t make noise in a vacuum either. 😉

I don’t take much stock in what the visual dictionary says. Would you take what they imply about Snoke as gospel?

The two million passes the eye test too just based on how freaking overly huge that ship was.

And again, I don’t care about realistic physics at all. I just want the in-universe abilities to remain constant between movies. The X-Wing powerslide was the new Legolas skateboard.

What is obvious is that Snoke and the First Order are a continuation of the Empire. From the equipment they have and the developments they have made, it seem pretty clear that they have access to the designs of the Empire and the ability to manufacture equipment on the same scale.

Well yes, that is obvious by what transpires in the movie.

But Disney and Disney Apologists are very insistent that the First Order is just a small remnant in the Unknown Regions. Despite them nuking the entire New Republic. Despite building StarKiller base and now Snoke’s ship. Despite everything in the movie telling you that they’re just as big and bad as the Empire. Despite there being only about 12 Resistance members left in the entire galaxy. And about 6 lines of dialog between the two movies to try to explain/hoodwink all of the above.

The world-building in the Disney Trilogy is creatively bankrupt. It’s as big of a problem here as the bad acting/directing were a problem in the Prequels.

As much as I enjoyed TFA, the Starkiller Base really strained the friendship. I was kind of okay with it until the scene in the Reb…uh Resistance briefing room where Poe says “this was the Death Star, this is SK base”. Until then I’d figured SK was actually a cool economical way to build a Death Star by sinking an ionic cannon into an existing celestial body and thus saving billions on housing. Instead the comparison showed that even the ‘built’ parts of SK measured several Death Stars! So yeah, where the frack did the FO get the funding for all this stuff?

lovelikewinter said:

For those of you who are questioning Luke’s actions- he’s suffering from severe depression. Depression can really fuck with you and speaking from experience you do stuff that’s not normal for you.

Yes, but the question is down to whether Luke Skywalker being depression-prone is tonally consistent with his character as established by the OT. Obviously anyone, even Luke, could succumb to depression, but that’s like saying Superman could feasibly get fat and bald. It’s possible, but does it feel right? Luke’s entire victory/arc in the OT was about his mastery of his emotions, his darker impulses. One could reasonably assume that such a person wouldn’t succumb to depression very easily. For a lot of fans, the leap from ‘eternal optimist and Jedi Knight’ to ‘defeated hobo’ is too jarring - not so much because of fan conservatism but because it doesn’t feel realistic in the context of what has gone before.

I’m not sure how I feel about it myself, but I do get why there’s a controversy here. (And by the way this post is in no way intended to trivialise yours or anyone’s experiences with these things.)

Michael Ward said:

Creox said:

With regards to the DS being able to use a hyperdrive. I am stunned that people think it wouldn’t. Space is really, really big…I mean, really big. For the DS to not be able to fly at lightspeed would render it completely useless for striking fear into the galaxy.

Of course it realisticly needs a hyperdrive, but I’m not sure if that was the original intent. In the older Superman comics stuff was always just drifting from Krypton to earth with no propulsion at all more less a hyperdrive. Writers didn’t always think that stuff through, and Lucas probably didn’t either.

Indeed, the Falcon famously went from the Anoat system to Bespin sans hyperdrive, so clearly spacial distances are not a huge concern in the SW universe (I bet there’s a debate about that little trip somewhere in these forums!)…

Frank your Majesty said:

Shopping Maul said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Why didn’t the Death Star just jump in a position where it could immediately fire at Yavin 4, instead of circling the planet for half an hour?

Because it was clearly tracking/following the Millennium Falcon. The film shows the Falcon, having come out of hyperspace, arriving at a big red planet and flying under (around) it to a little blue planet. It makes sense that the DS would follow suit and assess things from there.

Wouldn’t the tracking device show them where exactly the Falcon is in relation to the planet?

My own explanation is that there are certain hyperspace routes, which are safe to travel. Outside of these routes, you can only go under light speed. The DS could only enter Yavin’s orbit at this specific point.

The same thing applies to TLJ. Once the Resistance ships were fleeing, the nearest hyperspace access point was behind them, so the FO couldn’t simply jump ahead.

Those are great theories. In the case of the DS in ep.4 I think we’re overthinking it. It seems to me that the visuals were very deliberate in this instance, because George and co. needed that particular sense of tension for the film’s climax - hence the scenes showing the Falcon approaching Yavin and then going beyond to the moon (I think the idea of Yavin itself being a gas giant was deliberate too ie you probably can’t blow up a gas giant). Then we see the DS approaching Yavin and Tarkin gets the “moon with the base is on the far side” call. The DS has clearly followed the Falcon’s path precisely. It makes sense for the DS to come out of hyperspace right where the Falcon did and follow from there. Since Han had already established that hyperspace jumps were a precise business, it makes sense that you wouldn’t risk simply warping to the end point of a tracking exercise (the DS might collide with a planet or accidentally occupy the same space as the Yavin moon). It makes more sense to come out of warp at the edge of the system (where the Falcon did) and mark their progress from there.

By the way I had no problem with the space-chase in TLJ at all. I thought it was a really cool idea and didn’t entertain the notion of FO ships warping ahead and cutting them off. That actually sounds too complicated to me (can ships warp such tiny distances? I guess I’m agreeing with your ‘hyperspace access points’ theory in a way) and I love the sadism of Hux deciding to simply flow with it all and keep the pressure up.

In fact whatever my niggling beefs with this movie, the idea of starting the film immediately after its predecessor, and having that chase be the whole body of the movie is genius as far as I’m concerned. We’re so used to gaps of 1 to 10 years between these films, so this was a real breath of fresh air.