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Shopping Maul

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Post
#1233376
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

Chewielewis said:

Shopping Maul said:
I also think that the SW backlash has been cynically conflated with ‘conservatism’ when the truth is actually more basic. I don’t have ‘stats’ of course (does anyone?), but from what I can gather over the net, most detractors seem to have no issues whatsoever with SW taking bold new directions. In fact many of the folks railing against RJ’s story choices are the same fans who derided TFA’s soft-reboot style and also loathe the overt OT echoes in TLJ (ie Hoth/Crait or the RoTJ lines in Snoke’s office). There are literally dozens of Youtube clips of fans who are deeply incensed at the accusations of sexism on their part and proudly proclaim their love of strong female characters from Leia and Ripley to Kiddo and Katniss Everdeen - yet this falls on deaf ears. Elsewhere on this very site is a post where Gary Whitta characterises the ‘backlash’ as being a small minority of fans who supposedly can’t handle RJ’s bold choices. This is total BS. Most detractors simply hate the giant plotholes in the movie and wish the characters had been better written.

Calling bullshit on that one.

Yeah not everyone cites feminism or “forced SJW politics” as criticisms of this film but its a sizeable and vocal portion of the anti-TLJ community that does. Some of the most popular negative deconstructions cite feminism as a huge problem in TLJ and the downfall of star wars, laying the blame squarely on KK (which is absurd).

There’s a published Fanedit where they basically remove as much “Girl powah” As they can. The De-feminized Fanedit. https://imgur.com/tOxCvl7

And I really don’t understand how Rose, let alone any of these characters could be considered poorly written. Rose has a unique perspective, she has backstory, she has motive, she has agency, she makes decisions that affect the narrative, she introduces themes and ideas that were otherwise never mentioned in the star wars universe. Does she react irrationally? sure but acting irrationally is not bad writing.

Like I said, I don’t have the ‘stats’ - and the link you cite is pretty disturbing. But even if I’m wrong about the percentages (let’s assume most detractors are sexist a-holes for arguments’ sake), I still maintain that criticisms of TLJ should be judged on their own merits (or lack thereof) rather than immediately being conflated with notions of fan-conservatism or other 'isms. Even fans who perceive a political agenda in the movie aren’t necessarily coming from a sexist point of view. They might just object to the way the agenda impedes the narrative tonally, or they may feel the agenda comes at a storytelling cost.

As for perceived ‘bad writing’, the handling of Luke, Rey, Poe/Holdo, Finn/Rose etc etc has been covered ad nauseam in these threads (and everywhere) as have story points and canon-violations.

Post
#1233280
Topic
Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars
Time

DrDre said:

I came across this link, which I think is interesting in the context of the Star Wars fandom crisis we’re experiencing today:

http://christopherwitt.com/promote-change-without-attacking-status-quo/

I think this quote is particulary apt:

“But in most cases assailing the supporters of the status turns them into opponents and hardens their resistance.”

Historically conservatism has often been conflated by its opponents with bigotry and racism, and this is coming from someone who leans left politically, and generally favours liberal view points. I believe attacking conservative, and or critical sections of the fanbase, and conflating them with bigotry, racism, and toxity is counterproductive, and ultimately endangers the future of the franchise as a whole.

I also think that the SW backlash has been cynically conflated with ‘conservatism’ when the truth is actually more basic. I don’t have ‘stats’ of course (does anyone?), but from what I can gather over the net, most detractors seem to have no issues whatsoever with SW taking bold new directions. In fact many of the folks railing against RJ’s story choices are the same fans who derided TFA’s soft-reboot style and also loathe the overt OT echoes in TLJ (ie Hoth/Crait or the RoTJ lines in Snoke’s office). There are literally dozens of Youtube clips of fans who are deeply incensed at the accusations of sexism on their part and proudly proclaim their love of strong female characters from Leia and Ripley to Kiddo and Katniss Everdeen - yet this falls on deaf ears. Elsewhere on this very site is a post where Gary Whitta characterises the ‘backlash’ as being a small minority of fans who supposedly can’t handle RJ’s bold choices. This is total BS. Most detractors simply hate the giant plotholes in the movie and wish the characters had been better written.

Post
#1230968
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

Mocata said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

That doesn’t make her a Jedi.

Right.

Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.

After Rey’s childhood, there’s nothing zen about her. I can’t buy the notion that a week’s worth of stress focused her mind and turned the coal into a diamond. Show me a monk who achieves enlightenment in a week.

Whether you define the scope of what it means to be a Jedi as flipping around and floating rocks or a spiritual, zen-like state of mind, neither should be possible to the extent Rey is capable within a few days.

You are right. That is why I’ve been saying her life on Jakku provided the training she needed. Ignoring the possibility that life can teach you what you need before you actually need it is ignoring a very real occurance. What I do every day right now at work, I learned how to do by accident years ago. I literally fell into the job I have now because of things I’d done years before working for my current employer. And we are talking about a fictional character in a fictional world in a story based on mythic heroes so having a character who has life experiences that prepared them for their journey is natural. You are maintaining the the skills a Jedi need are unique and I am saying they probably aren’t. You need to believe in yourself and trust your abilities (at least that is what I’ve always understood from Yoda and Obi-wan’s lessons - which are mirrored in Samurai training). Rey shows that she has learned those lessons already. Luke had not. What we need to be asking is what is Rey’s journey in this trilogy. She has the disciple, the force skills come easy for her, so those are just tools she needs. Her demons relate to being abandoned by her parents, needing guidance, both in general and what it is to be a Jedi. It is more than having these amazing powers. Powers do not a Jedi make.

In theory I like the ‘school of hard knocks’ idea with regard to Rey’s training. It provides an interesting contrast to the Luke/Anakin experience. The problem is where to place the limits. The OT and PT were all about discipline and struggle and earning the Jedi mantle. You mentioned the Karate Kid at one point. If I remember correctly poor little Ralph Macchio hated the ‘wax on’ routine. He also felt like a moron standing there like a flamingo. That was the whole point, that he had to master himself in order to become a master.

Rey’s doesn’t struggle with anything. Ever. Mind tricks? Got it. Telekinesis? Easy! Resisting the Dark Side? Eh, child’s play! This breaks canon. Both the OT and PT emphasised the learning curve associated with becoming a Jedi Knight. The ST says there is no learning curve. Even Broom Boy levitates stuff without breaking a sweat.

When Luke met Han in ANH, Han stipulated that he’d never seen anything in all his travels that made him believe in the Force. Surely he would’ve come across something Force-like if these powers really do manifest X-Men style in any old Tom, Dick, and Harry? No, these traits were set up to be mysterious and rare. And more importantly - earned. Leia never had attitude problems. Why didn’t her powers just appear at the first sight of a broom?

Speculating that these powers are no big deal and that Luke simply didn’t have the right attitude diminishes the character of Luke Skywalker and the OT. That may be okay for some but not for me. Midichlorians were bad enough. The notion that Luke was merely a crap Jedi, or that the Force automatically ‘awakens’ in certain folks in order to consciously restore its own balance smacks of desperation to me. These new movies are beautiful and fun and have a great cast, but the writing seems more concerned with fanservice and big moments than actually telling a coherent story that respects (and expands upon without contradicting) the established lore.

Post
#1230461
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

There is an obvious subjectivity regarding how the Force ‘works’ given that a) it ain’t real and b) Lucas was making everything up as he went along. But it’s a little disingenuous to ignore what was heavily implied by the OT - namely that Luke’s journey with the Force was very linear and went (through trial and error) from good piloting and a blindfold trick to full Jedi status in RoTJ.

And don’t forget that Vader (and the Emperor) were impressed with Luke’s powers/progress as early as TESB. The fact that Rey manages to exceed Luke with no training whatsoever (and before lunch it seems) diminishes Luke as a character and the lore in general.

It is established across all 6 films that becoming a Jedi requires patience and discipline and is loaded with pitfalls. That’s why it is such a big deal throughout the saga. That’s why Anakin’s fall and Luke’s attaining Jedi-hood (and Anakin’s subsequent redemption) are so impactful. Rey masters everything without effort. There are no disappointments, no emotional struggles, no lessons, no ‘that is why you fail’, no ‘beware the Dark Side’ (beyond Luke saying “wow, you went to the Dark Side” although it amounted to nothing) etc etc.

I don’t think it’s mere fan conservatism that makes people see that this stuff strains the established lore somewhat.

Post
#1230258
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

Chewielewis said:

Hardcore Legend said:

Rey knows how to fly because shes been around ships all her life, she knows the falcon because Unkar Putt owns it and shes probably been in it many times. In Star Wars, knowing how to fly is basically knowing how to drive.

She knows the Falcon inside out, yet claims that it’s ‘garbage’ before later teaching Han about compressors inhibiting the hyperdrive and auxiliary fuel pumps etc etc. It’s odd that someone with such intimate mechanical knowledge of the galaxy’s most famous hot rod would be so disparaging of it before boarding.

She doesn’t know it’s the Falcon at the time. Before meeting Han, it’s just some old hunk of junk freighter Unkar Plut keeps around under a tarp.

But the point I’m making is that if she really had all that mechanical knowledge (as later expressed) she would certainly not write the ship off as garbage. She would have to know its potential if she had such a grasp of its inner workings.

It’s like JJ wanted a “what a piece of junk” moment (and yes, it was a great moment) but forgot that she was also an engineering genius. I just think it would’ve been better if she’d claimed the ship was rubbish, and then discovered in real time that it was actually a diamond in the rough. In fact it could’ve been Han that showed her the Falcon’s true potential which would’ve given her some kind of learning curve.

Post
#1230253
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Chewielewis said:

Hardcore Legend said:

Rey knows how to fly because shes been around ships all her life, she knows the falcon because Unkar Putt owns it and shes probably been in it many times. In Star Wars, knowing how to fly is basically knowing how to drive.

She knows the Falcon inside out, yet claims that it’s ‘garbage’ before later teaching Han about compressors inhibiting the hyperdrive and auxiliary fuel pumps etc etc. It’s odd that someone with such intimate mechanical knowledge of the galaxy’s most famous hot rod would be so disparaging of it before boarding.

Post
#1229852
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

yotsuya said:

But here is where and why ROTJ is the oddball. Luke has faced Vader and lived. He starts out the story by rescuing Han. Jabba and his main henchmen and hangers on are all dead. Luke has mastered the powers and skills that Yoda taught. Luke is at the top of his game. He is the last Jedi (save Yoda on Dagobah). He turns himself in to Vader rather than risk his friends. He starts of determined not to fight. Why does he fight? The Emperor taps into his failings. The ones we’ve spent two movies dealing with. He incites Luke to draw and fight. That and Vader doing the same thing a little while later prove that Luke is not the poised Jedi Knight he is pretending to be. ROTJ shows that Luke is not perfect, but the overall impression is that he is now a full Jedi Knight. But he has a lot to learn yet. But now he has no teacher. The cracks showed on the Death Star. So when years later he establishes a Jedi school and half his students turn and kill the other half, Luke’s wave of success crumbles and his failings show for all to see. Just because they are nicely hidden in ROTJ does not mean they are not there. Many fans have speculated that he almost turned to the dark side - that he actually drew on the dark side to defeat his father. He has his father at his mercy and he hears the Emperor urge him to finish him and listens to something else that makes him stop and throw down his light saber (something he evidently did in a more permanent way after the fall of his school).

But to say that ROTJ clearly shows a changed Luke ignores all the flaws that the movie shows are clearly still there. The Luke of ROTJ is riding a wave of success and has matured, but those old tendencies to defeatism and recklessness are still there. Rian tapped into all the complexities of Luke from the OT when crafting the story for TLJ. If you gloss over the flaws that ROTJ shows are still there, or just ignore those parts of the movie, you get Luke the epic Hero. Luke the Legendary Jedi Knight. When you dig you find Luke the person and that person would do exactly what JJ and Rian have said he did. Even Mark Hamill has fallen for Luke the Hero. But once he got past the surface and realized what the story did, he agreed with it.

ROTJ is the aberration in Luke’s journey because it was his greatest success. His flaws were under control.

Well this is where it gets really interesting for me, because I actually think Luke’s actions in RoTJ are morally bankrupt. The essence is fine - Luke realises that he is a liability and turns himself in so that the mission can proceed. That stuff is great.

But the details ruin it for me. Luke says to Leia “if I don’t make it back, you’re the only hope for the Alliance”. This is arrogant nonsense. As I mentioned earlier, Luke is nothing but a liability. Furthermore his showdown with Vader/Palpatine has no bearing on the mission or the war.

Then he states that his mission is to try and turn Vader back to the ‘good side’. This is selfish in the extreme. Vader is a war criminal, a profoundly evil man. While it might be a nice idea for Luke personally, Luke’s primary focus should have been a) getting out of the way (which he stated) and b) taking down the Emperor even if it’s by way of making sure Palps is on the Death Star when it goes boom. That would be a noble mission and a very worthy one. Instead Luke’s spoken stance is “while you guys fight for the galaxy’s freedom I’m gonna go save my war-mongering dad”.

I will never understand the ethics of what goes down on the Death Star. Luke, a man who has killed countless enemy numbers and to great applause, suddenly decides that total pacifism is the key here - and only because he selfishly wants daddy to turn good. While people are fighting and dying all around him for the cause of freedom against a brutal dictatorship, Luke is hiding under a stairwell refusing to fight. After losing his temper and (rightfully IMO) beating Vader to a pulp, Luke throws his weapon aside and proudly declares his own enlightenment. Again, an actual war is being waged outside, and Luke is busy congratulating himself on his personal spiritual victory. He doesn’t challenge the Emperor. He doesn’t attempt to address the carnage being wrought by the Death Star or at least get Palpatine in a headlock and force him to recall his forces. No, he just stands there and boasts “I am Jedi”. Great. Meanwhile the actual galaxy is being saved by Chewbacca who has had the foresight to hijack a Scout Walker. Give that Wookiee a medal please!

So Luke gets fried and Vader, seeing his own flesh and blood in danger, kills the Emperor. Suddenly killing the bad guy becomes a viable path to enlightenment. Uh, okay. Vader and Luke hold hands and all is wonderful.

At best you could argue that Luke inadvertently prevented Palpatine’s possible escape from the Death Star. But that was just a lucky consequence of Vader’s sudden sense of paternity. Luke’s actions had no bearing on the war. For all the build-up, for all the ‘that boy is our last hope’, Luke was pointless (outside of recruiting the Ewoks). If anything the idea of training a new Jedi Order - ie a bunch of guys who aren’t allowed to fight and could turn irreversibly evil at the drop of a hat - is ludicrous. The idea of Luke even becoming a legend for his actions on Death Star II is laughable.

The only thing Luke has going for him at this point is his unwavering dedication to family over doctrine. Remove that and you’re not left with much.

Well, I disagree with you strongly about all this.

First, Luke saves the strike team. By linking with the Ewoks, it leads to the eventual success. Without the Ewoks, the mission would have been a failure. Palpatine had planned for a strike team and had countered it, but he failed to counter for the Ewoks. Second, Luke confronting the Emperor ensured he remained on the Death Star. And if he killed the Emperor, the war was virtually over. And his insistence on not fighting was mostly against his father. In the end he threw down his light saber because he had tapped into the dark side, seen how tempting it was, and rejected fighting and anger as a way to win the day. And while Palpatine’s focus was on Luke, he wasn’t paying attention that the strike team had planted explosives and the only thing protecting him from the Rebel plan was about to go poof. While Palpatine was focused on Luke, his death was approaching. Luke took the Jedi path of non-violence to face Palpatine. Palpatine tries to kill him and it is the one thing that could trigger Vader to turn back to Anakin. This is one place where I think the PT made the OT more powerful. We know he lost Padme (something that could have always been guessed at with Luke and Leia being orphans from a young age) and he does not stand by to watch his son die.

And the entire redemption is that at the core, a person can find good even after horrible actions. In Star Wars we get the Dark Side which entices and temps, but in reality, power can corrupt. You call Vader a war criminal, and a profoundly evil man, but is that true? He is Palpatine’s lackey. He acts on his masters orders. He is a slave of Palpatine as much as he was a slave to Watto. Not that he is innocent by any means, or that he would not have been held accountable for his actions, but the point was his soul/spirit/force energy. Luke was able to redeem his father. Had he lived he would have been executed by the Rebels, but his sacrifice was heroic. Luke’s actions were heroic. It is an epic end to that part of the story. Luke saves his father who at the end killed the Emperor. And all the bad guys die. Ultimately Luke’s efforts are the key to the Rebel victory. They had hoped to catch the Emperor on the station and for him to die there, but Luke proved how easy it would have been for him to escape. That he did not was all on Luke. I’m sure the legend in universe got spun a bit. But the result is the Luke’s actions resulted in the Emperor’s death. Without Luke the strike team would not have succeeded and the Emperor would not have died. Luke’s journey then was not about the war.

Interesting how you have pointed out that even in ROTJ, Luke wasn’t as concerned with the Galaxy as the he was with the Jedi. That idea is echoed in why he is in self exile on Ach-To. In ROTJ, Luke goes to do what Yoda and Ben want him to do. None of them said anything about the Empire/Rebellion conflict. He doesn’t do it quite the way they think he should, but he goes all the same. He wants to save his father, they want him to destroy the Emperor. Nothing about helping the Galaxy. His attitude remains unchanged in TLJ. He has put down the saber after the fall of Kylo and his instructions to Rey (including in the deleted scenes) echoes the teachings of Yoda. Not to interfere. Luke is intent on letting the Jedi die. Yoda influences him to see otherwise. Rey has already taken the sacred texts. Yoda makes him see that she will be a Jedi and that if he thinks there are failures, he’d better go to her and fix it. For the first time since TESB, Luke acts to save his friends rather than follow the old Jedi teachings. Your point leads to interesting ideas.

Like I said, I agree about the Ewok thing. That was all Luke. But Palpatine? Yes, Luke’s actions inadvertently prevented Palpatine’s escape, but that was not Luke’s intention and he certainly did not pursue this directly. As the dialogue clearly states, Luke only cared about a) getting out of the way of the mission and b) turning Anakin to the ‘good side’.

Again, this was of no help to the cause whatsoever. At best Luke prevented Palpatine’s escape by accident. Hardly the stuff of legends and certainly not worthy of the build-up in the previous two films.

You say Luke rejected fighting and anger as a way of saving the day. Okay, but what was his alternative? Nothing. Wow, these Jedi are so useful! So it’s okay to destroy the first Death Star with all the collateral damage that entails? He even got a parade for that one (and ghost-Kenobi certainly didn’t complain or deem it a ‘path to the Dark Side’)! It’s okay to shoot down TIE fighters and AT-ATs full of people, or gun down stormtroopers willy nilly. But when the Emperor is shooting down entire shipfulls of sentient beings with a super-laser, even as your deadbeat dad is threatening to turn your sister into an evil agent, apparently turning on your lightsaber is a path to ‘the Dark Side’? This is ludicrous!

For me this would have made more sense if Luke’s focus was on the Emperor rather than on himself and his daddy issues. This could have been achieved with just a little dialogue. Instead of the “I can turn him back to the good side” stuff, Luke could have said to Leia something like “I’m endangering the group and our mission if I stay here. The best thing I can do is face the Emperor myself. I’ll keep him occupied while you and Han get the shield down.”

That right there would change (or restate) Luke’s intentions in a way that makes him as hero, a Jedi, and a legend. His focus is still the war, even though he’s been thrown a curve ball, and there’s nothing selfish about his path. He could still go through all the supposed temptation stuff (although I’d prefer something more sophisticated than ‘strike me down with all your hatred’ - Jedi are allowed to act in defence and, given the death toll, I think defence qualifies here) and the Anakin redemption could be an added bonus rather than Luke’s only goal. Palps could still fry Luke at some point, with Anakin saving the day and being redeemed, but it would all be for a greater good rather than simply Luke/Anakin’s religious trip and family reunion.

Everyone forgets how evil Vader actually was. The first thing he does in ANH is lift a guy by the neck and snap his trachea. Throughout TESB he murders everyone who annoys him. It’s kind of slapstick in the film, but it’s pretty brutal when you think about it. Luke was so horrified by the guy in TESB that he attempted suicide rather than side with him. Luke’s sudden softening towards Vader in RoTJ makes little sense. That’s why I think it would’ve been better if Luke’s focus had been on a rebel victory in RoTJ, with Vader’s turnaround being something of a nice surprise.

This would also tie in better with the events depicted in TLJ too, because redeeming family members irrespective of their war crimes would never have been Luke’s primary focus. So when he sees Kylo’s potential future, he might well give in to a moment’s despair because the fate of the galaxy would have been demonstrated as his primary concern, not just the spiritual well-being of his relatives.

Post
#1229247
Topic
<em>Solo: A Star Wars Story</em> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — <strong>SPOILERS</strong>
Time

screams in the void said:

according to the official site , that was indeed the Falcon in Revenge Of The Sith…https://www.starwars.com/databank/millennium-falcon and a relevant article explains the “plot hole” in Solo…https://screenrant.com/solo-explains-away-revenge-sith-easter-egg-problem/

That’s awesome - thanks! I’m assuming there’s a similar backstory somewhere re how Chewie lost his first bandolier…(just kidding!)

Post
#1229159
Topic
<em>Solo: A Star Wars Story</em> — Official Review and Opinions Thread — <strong>SPOILERS</strong>
Time

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

Just saw Solo. Forgive me if this has been covered, but wasn’t the Millennium Falcon shown in Revenge of the Sith sporting a traditional (if not as beaten up as in the OT) exterior?

There were a few ships of the same model (and it is a modular-type range of ship) shown in ROTS - I wouldn’t be surprised if George or someone at Lucasfilm said something along the lines of ‘yeah, sure - that could’ve been the Falcon if you want it to be’ etc - though I don’t think there was anything official stating it definitely was?

There were, of course, also a few other ‘easter egg’ type references in the Prequels too. It probably rhymes or something 😉

Thanks for that. It’s quite ironic (now) that Lando promises he’ll take care of the Falcon in Ep 6. “Not a scratch” he assures the guy who totally destroyed its sleek exterior!

Post
#1228873
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

But here is where and why ROTJ is the oddball. Luke has faced Vader and lived. He starts out the story by rescuing Han. Jabba and his main henchmen and hangers on are all dead. Luke has mastered the powers and skills that Yoda taught. Luke is at the top of his game. He is the last Jedi (save Yoda on Dagobah). He turns himself in to Vader rather than risk his friends. He starts of determined not to fight. Why does he fight? The Emperor taps into his failings. The ones we’ve spent two movies dealing with. He incites Luke to draw and fight. That and Vader doing the same thing a little while later prove that Luke is not the poised Jedi Knight he is pretending to be. ROTJ shows that Luke is not perfect, but the overall impression is that he is now a full Jedi Knight. But he has a lot to learn yet. But now he has no teacher. The cracks showed on the Death Star. So when years later he establishes a Jedi school and half his students turn and kill the other half, Luke’s wave of success crumbles and his failings show for all to see. Just because they are nicely hidden in ROTJ does not mean they are not there. Many fans have speculated that he almost turned to the dark side - that he actually drew on the dark side to defeat his father. He has his father at his mercy and he hears the Emperor urge him to finish him and listens to something else that makes him stop and throw down his light saber (something he evidently did in a more permanent way after the fall of his school).

But to say that ROTJ clearly shows a changed Luke ignores all the flaws that the movie shows are clearly still there. The Luke of ROTJ is riding a wave of success and has matured, but those old tendencies to defeatism and recklessness are still there. Rian tapped into all the complexities of Luke from the OT when crafting the story for TLJ. If you gloss over the flaws that ROTJ shows are still there, or just ignore those parts of the movie, you get Luke the epic Hero. Luke the Legendary Jedi Knight. When you dig you find Luke the person and that person would do exactly what JJ and Rian have said he did. Even Mark Hamill has fallen for Luke the Hero. But once he got past the surface and realized what the story did, he agreed with it.

ROTJ is the aberration in Luke’s journey because it was his greatest success. His flaws were under control.

Well this is where it gets really interesting for me, because I actually think Luke’s actions in RoTJ are morally bankrupt. The essence is fine - Luke realises that he is a liability and turns himself in so that the mission can proceed. That stuff is great.

But the details ruin it for me. Luke says to Leia “if I don’t make it back, you’re the only hope for the Alliance”. This is arrogant nonsense. As I mentioned earlier, Luke is nothing but a liability. Furthermore his showdown with Vader/Palpatine has no bearing on the mission or the war.

Then he states that his mission is to try and turn Vader back to the ‘good side’. This is selfish in the extreme. Vader is a war criminal, a profoundly evil man. While it might be a nice idea for Luke personally, Luke’s primary focus should have been a) getting out of the way (which he stated) and b) taking down the Emperor even if it’s by way of making sure Palps is on the Death Star when it goes boom. That would be a noble mission and a very worthy one. Instead Luke’s spoken stance is “while you guys fight for the galaxy’s freedom I’m gonna go save my war-mongering dad”.

I will never understand the ethics of what goes down on the Death Star. Luke, a man who has killed countless enemy numbers and to great applause, suddenly decides that total pacifism is the key here - and only because he selfishly wants daddy to turn good. While people are fighting and dying all around him for the cause of freedom against a brutal dictatorship, Luke is hiding under a stairwell refusing to fight. After losing his temper and (rightfully IMO) beating Vader to a pulp, Luke throws his weapon aside and proudly declares his own enlightenment. Again, an actual war is being waged outside, and Luke is busy congratulating himself on his personal spiritual victory. He doesn’t challenge the Emperor. He doesn’t attempt to address the carnage being wrought by the Death Star or at least get Palpatine in a headlock and force him to recall his forces. No, he just stands there and boasts “I am Jedi”. Great. Meanwhile the actual galaxy is being saved by Chewbacca who has had the foresight to hijack a Scout Walker. Give that Wookiee a medal please!

So Luke gets fried and Vader, seeing his own flesh and blood in danger, kills the Emperor. Suddenly killing the bad guy becomes a viable path to enlightenment. Uh, okay. Vader and Luke hold hands and all is wonderful.

At best you could argue that Luke inadvertently prevented Palpatine’s possible escape from the Death Star. But that was just a lucky consequence of Vader’s sudden sense of paternity. Luke’s actions had no bearing on the war. For all the build-up, for all the ‘that boy is our last hope’, Luke was pointless (outside of recruiting the Ewoks). If anything the idea of training a new Jedi Order - ie a bunch of guys who aren’t allowed to fight and could turn irreversibly evil at the drop of a hat - is ludicrous. The idea of Luke even becoming a legend for his actions on Death Star II is laughable.

The only thing Luke has going for him at this point is his unwavering dedication to family over doctrine. Remove that and you’re not left with much.

Post
#1228855
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

As for Rey’s powers it seems to me that RJ has simply changed the nature of the Force for his own convenience. The OT (and even the midichlorian-infested PT) establishes the Force as something that requires serious training and incredible mental/emotional discipline - irrespective of the wielders’ natural proclivities. In RJ’s SW universe the Force manifests like X-Men powers (see ‘Broom Boy’).

I’ll correct you here as that would be JJ Abrams. And as I’ve said, she can pick up powers, but has no guidance as to how to use them. Luke had serious doubts. Ben and Yoda had to overcome his doubts. That is one of my biggest problems with the complaints about TLJ. So much of what Rian did was based directly on JJ’s setup. Blaming these things on Rian is nonsense. Luke’s self exile after Kylo turned and destroyed the school, Rey’s ability to pick up powers as soon as she sees them, the First Order being like the Empire, the Resistance being like the Rebellion, all these things come straight from TFA and Abrams.

She doesn’t need guidance to use them. She lifts a mountainside without effort, kicks Luke’s butt and teaches him hope(!), triple shoots TIE fighters and slaughters Snoke’s guards and even goes straight to the Dark Side on Ach-To without repercussions beyond a mild disappointment. This is all on Rian. Yes, JJ wrote Rey as a…very powerful character, but a) we all assumed actual reasons were pending and b) there has to be a limit. That’s why Anakin and Luke’s powers only manifested as good piloting skills and (in Anakin’s case) some vague ESP. Otherwise you’d have kids Force-choking their parents over petty disagreements or levitating their math teacher. Why would the Jedi Council refuse to train Anakin if it’s apparent that Force powers simply grow exponentially anyway? Wouldn’t that be risking his becoming a Sith lord under his own steam? No, clearly the lore requires some kind of limits as clearly indicated by what has been established over the 6 movies (Midichlorian BS notwithstanding).

And no, Luke’s self-exile did not have to mean Luke’s nervous breakdown. He could have gone to the temple for new knowledge, foreseen Rey’s arrival/emergence, and orchestrated things in a way to break free of the old orthodoxy without having his character reduced to pre-RoTJ levels. That’s on Rian.

However I agree this whole thing would have gone a lot smoother if JJ and Kasdan had actually thought things through beyond their obsession with mystery boxes. Clearly no-one learned from the eternally ridiculous shoehorning of Leia into the twin sister role in RoTJ…

Post
#1228813
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

dahmage said:

Jay said:

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

Shopping Maul said:

I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.

What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.

This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.

Shopping Maul said:

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.

What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.

This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.

If you didn’t notice, the scene with Yoda doesn’t alter the more Zen route he took in ROTJ. Yoda isn’t advising him on the force, he is advising him how to teach. Advising him as a fellow master. I think because Luke was so pivotal, Rian didn’t just have him fill the master/mentor role immediately. He brought back some of that negativity that characterized Luke in ANH and TESB. It created a nice character journey for Luke to take him where he needed to be to help Rey.

Yes, but that’s my point - that Luke was brought back to ANH/TESB levels to reboot his arc. Yoda says (in TLJ) “young Skywalker, always looking to the horizon” when it was actually this attitude that saved the day in RoTJ, namely that Luke ‘looked to the horizon’ and took an emotional, idealistic path with regard to the bad guys (as opposed to just killing them).

I just think returning the OT characters to pre-RoTJ status, while not so bad in theory, could’ve been handled better. Leia as rebel leader, rather than Jedi kindergarten teacher, was a no-brainer since her Skywalker heritage was a story convenience that added zero to her character. Han going back to smuggling was kind of dumb - he should have been recruiting pilots from the outer rim or something which would have kept him on his post-RoTJ path while still serving the divorce narrative.

But returning Luke to pre-RoTJ status diminishes RoTJ (and this is coming from someone who doesn’t even like RoTJ!). I think the ‘broken recluse’ idea could have been served in a cleverer way without sending Luke backwards. And he didn’t help Rey. She helped him.

Great interpretations, agree fully. Luke accomplished what his masters couldn’t when he saved his father, and he did it in his own way. Reducing him to a bitter old man who made the same mistakes with his own pupil (except worse, seeing as he considered murder a solution to his failings as a teacher) is to ignore what he accomplished in RotJ. It’s sold as a subversive take on Luke’s character, but it’s really just another reboot and ripoff of a story we’ve already been told.

I didn’t mind the idea of the Jedi Order and its orthodoxy dying out because my interpretation of the prequels has always been that the Jedi became too powerful, influential, and frankly cocky (Yoda speaks to this in AotC I believe), inviting the blindness and corruption that was ultimately the downfall of the Order and the Republic.

Luke experienced an awakening in RotJ and TLJ sets him back for the sake of making Rey look good.

I quite disagree. Luke had faith that his father could be saved and he was right. But seeing the way Luke ended ROTJ as something fundamental had changed with him and he could never fall back to his old defeatist attitude is a false interpretation of the character arc of Luke in the OT. Luke found something to believe in and he believed that the correct course was to rebuild the Jedi. But that failed in a miserable way. It was not just the actions of Luke on that night in Kylo’s hut, but that Kylo had been corrupted to start with and it was too late for Luke to reach him. How did evil penetrate his trailing of his nephew? How could that happen again? Was it in the Skywalker blood? Was it a failing of the Jedi teachings? Why had Kylo fallen? Luke went to the source looking for answers and the only thing he found was that the Jedi were flawed and that flaw had left a hole for Kylo’s fall and while Luke had not caused or been able to prevent it, he had hastened it by listening to his instincts (Ben’s first lesson if you recall - to act on instinct). He had failed his nephew. A tradgedy like that would naturally bring out your defeatist side if that was in your nature (as we saw it was indeed in two movies and still hints of it in ROTJ). It is a very realistic portrayal of a hero and a classic archetype of the former hero as mentor, who has to be convinced to teach. Nothing about the Luke shown in TLJ is contrary to the OT Luke. Quite the reverse. In fact you could say that Luke’s journey in TLJ is very much tied to how his character appeared in ROTJ. Luke is a Jedi of strong emotions. Strong faith and strong doubt.

False interpretation? There’s no such thing. I have my take, you have yours.

As I’ve said multiple times now, I don’t have a problem with Hermit Luke, just the poorly told history that led him to such a place and Rey’s lack of need for any real training to exhibit Force powers that rival Yoda’s. As Shopping Maul said, I have a problem with its execution. I’m just not sold on this version of Luke based on what we’ve been given to work with and I’m not going to perform the mental gymnastics required to get there.

You pose lots of interesting questions, by the way—none of which were answered in TFA or TLJ. I doubt they’ll be answered in IX either.

It is a false interpretation because that is not how human beings are. At their core, all heroes are human beings, just with something special to make them a hero. Hercules had his failings. Luke has his failings. Rian used those to round out Luke’s actions as told in TFA. Luke had a very good day at the end of ROTJ, but on the day Kylo turned against him it was a very bad day. Luke has a bad history with very bad days and there is no reason why having a great day means he will never act the same again on a bad day. That is just ridiculous. Your interpretation builds Luke up to something he is not. That is part of what the story of TLJ is about. Leia and Rey wanted that heroic Luke who took on the Empire, so did a lot of fans. That Luke would be unrealistic. What we got was an epic illusion. He appeared to be the Luke desired, but he was never that Luke. His human side was showing through and he saw no way to help the galaxy except by staying away. Right or wrong, that was his take. In the end he realized the galaxy needed the legend and they got it, just not as they expected it. Better in some ways. But the Luke from the end of ROTJ was still just a Tatooine farm boy at heart. People don’t change in such a fundamental way. That was why Anakin could be saved. He was fundamentally a lost slaveboy who wanted to save his family. Where is that fundamental difference in Kylo. I think his redemption will take a different direction.

Sorry, still not there with you on this, and never will be.

darthrush said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Everyone’s favorite scene in TLJ was when Leia gave Rey a medal that said “Best Jedi Ever.” Truly amazing moment.

yeah because that’s exactly what i meant

Well then I guess I have no idea what you meant, like usual.

Are you kidding? Sometimes it’s like you people don’t want to even acknowledge the other side of something despite Collipso being pretty darn clear.

It’s deliberate and it’s annoying. Just shitposting, really.

Thanks?

No, like Frink said, I really didn’t get collipso’s point. I have taken his posts literally before, only to be told they were sarcasm, and I found myself scratching my head wondering which this was.

I was traveling all day, so only now saw this, and figured I better speak my price, lest you think I really was being pointlessly belligerent.

Back on topic, I agree with yotsuya’s post above.

i’m sorry i wasn’t clear dahmage. to explain the post you didn’t understand: i was pretty angry with some IRL stuff and gave a more emotional response than usual, and ended up using a super ultra hyperbole. i said rey’s the “best jedi ever”, but what i really meant was that she’s quite capable jedi-wise two movies in already and she had 0 training so far, so i don’t see why IX’s writers would go out of their ways in the final movie of the trilogy to give her some sort of training, given that it’s been pretty clear that it’s not necessary to her.

again, sorry for coming across as unclear to you quite often. you’re one of the posters i enjoy the most here and i’ll try to improve from now on to avoid complications in the future.

…Rey must reach a point no Jedi before has reached…

He [Luke] became a classic Jedi and it could not help him save his nephew from falling.

see, those are two of the biggest issues i have with TLJ and the ST in general.

Luke in RotJ had reached said point no Jedi had previously reached, and given what happens in the OT, it’s quite a big leap in logic for me to believe that Luke would go from his RotJ self into a classic jedi that couldn’t save his nephew and almost appealed to killing him due to that.

TLJ standing alone is a better movie than as the eigth part of the Star Wars saga: Luke, Rey and Kylo have great arcs, Finn and Poe have good arcs, etc. the problem here is that it’s not standing alone, and therefore Luke’s arc makes no sense (because how he’s gotten to the starting point makes no sense to me), Rey’s force abilities make no sense (given what we already know of the force and how hard it is to master it from previous movies), and that kills a third of the movie already, the A plot, the third of the movie that was supposed to ‘carry’ the other two.

now, some of you may read as if i have a problem with luke failing. i don’t. i have a problem with luke acting the way he did when facing his nephew’s possible turn to the dark side, given that he himself had been tempted before and had also turned one of the darkest and most evil guys ever back to the light side. so it feels weird that that’s Luke’s greatest failure.

How is it a stretch of logic for Luke, now a Jedi Master, to be struck down by remorse and regret and go back to that defeatist attitude that is so much of his character in ANH and TESB. That makes ROTJ the oddball, not TLJ. This Luke is a logical offshoot of where we left him in ROTJ given that he had built a school and then all of his students either turned to the dark side or were killed. That is a heavy loss for a teacher. We know Luke cares and to have half of his students to that to the other half is another blow. I’m not sure what you think Luke is made of, but the arc we are given for his post ROTJ life is consistent with his personality traits in the OT. It is the thought he had somehow became some grand legend at the end of ROTJ that is in error. He was a man who had succeeded. He was on top of the world. When Kylo betrayed him and the school, he was at the lowest he’d ever experienced in his life. That you know so little of human frailty and reaction to tragedy is unfortunate.

As for the scene in the hut with Kylo, We are given 3 versions. I feel the last one is correct. Luke acted on instinct. Kylo responded on instinct. That was the first lesson Ben taught him back in ANH on the Falcon. That would be the first lesson Luke would have taught. Luke would not have carried through with it, but Kylo did. Instinct is all well and good, but sometimes you need to let your head prevail. And it would be in keeping with his character to then reject the Light saber. We see in TLJ that he has dismantled his own.

As for Rey’s force abilities, she is a natural. It happens. Some people are just more adept than others. I read it as she can see how others use the force and imitate it. She needs training, but the skills come easy. It is how she should use them and in wisdom that she needs guidance. That is what she was asking of Luke. Luke had doubts that got in his way. Rey has none, but she seeks and needs purpose. She can do the skills, but she needs a mentor to show her how to take the skills and put them to use. The whole “she learns too easy” isn’t much of an argument. Anakin needed to learn patience. Luke needed to learn faith. Rey needs to learn wisdom. Just because she doesn’t have the same difficulty as Luke does not mean she is a full fledged Jedi in need of no training. Every Jedi to date has learned the same one-sided force ability. Light side only. Rey has no such restriction. To her it is all the force. That is either very dangerous or very beneficial, and only with guidance can she find the right way. Problem is that while Luke was closer than any who came before, even he wasn’t there yet. After Yoda opened his eyes and he died, he just might be the teacher she needs. Your argument is based on what we saw Luke go through. For Rey that part is easy. Luke had an innate sense of rightness that Rey seems to lack. Student learns from master and master learns from student and you arrive at what could be the ideal end result. If they are telling the story I think they are, that is the setup they need.

In saying ‘RoTJ is the oddball’ you’re actually making my point. That’s the problem here. If one was to do a ‘machete order’ viewing of the movies and remove RoTJ entirely (leaving the viewer to extrapolate such details as Leia’s newfound heritage and Anakin’s turn) then the character arcs would actually make perfect sense. Luke, Han, and Leia could continue from their TESB points without much of a hitch.

The problem is that RoTJ did happen, and from Lucas’ own mouth the entire point of that film was Anakin’s redemption - and by extension Luke’s insistence on carrying it out contrary to what he was being taught. Luke was trusting his instincts in RoTJ, absolutely. His entire manifesto, his entire arc, culminated in his valuing family over doctrine. His fumbling the ball over Kylo’s mere potential - when he so doggedly pursued the redemption of seemingly irredeemable father - is inconsistent with what RoTJ went out of its way to establish.

Having a hero ‘fall’ is fine if the writing is good/consistent. Paul Atreides became a bitter old hermit in Dune, but that worked because Frank Herbert was a genius who loaded his stories with incredible nuance regarding power and religion and human nature. Spider-Man constantly quits the hero biz, but Peter Parker is well known for his frailties and ever present guilt complex. Luke’s fumbling the ball with Kylo is jarring because the entire OT - and RoTJ in particular - makes a point of Luke’s arc culminating in the absolute notion of family loyalty/compassion over doctrine.

As for Rey’s powers it seems to me that RJ has simply changed the nature of the Force for his own convenience. The OT (and even the midichlorian-infested PT) establishes the Force as something that requires serious training and incredible mental/emotional discipline - irrespective of the wielders’ natural proclivities. In RJ’s SW universe the Force manifests like X-Men powers (see ‘Broom Boy’).

Post
#1228282
Topic
Taking a stand against toxic fandom (and other )
Time

DrDre said:

Apparently the analogies I used, are too far out there, so I’ll leave those for another time, and place.

However, in the vein of my original argument, is toxicity a one way street? Are only those that harshly criticize LFM, Disney, the films, and the characters toxic? Is “toxic” the new “sexist”, to be labeled on anyone with a strong negative opinion of the current canon? In my view any form of intolerence or animosity within the fandom is toxic, whether it is perpetuated by critics or fans of the new films.

For what it’s worth Dre I think you’re absolutely on topic and not being ‘toxic’ at all. I respect the moderators’ right to draw their own conversational lines, so I won’t belabour the point, but I absolutely get what you’re saying.

Post
#1228139
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

Jay said:

Shopping Maul said:

I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.

What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.

This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.

Shopping Maul said:

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.

What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.

This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.

If you didn’t notice, the scene with Yoda doesn’t alter the more Zen route he took in ROTJ. Yoda isn’t advising him on the force, he is advising him how to teach. Advising him as a fellow master. I think because Luke was so pivotal, Rian didn’t just have him fill the master/mentor role immediately. He brought back some of that negativity that characterized Luke in ANH and TESB. It created a nice character journey for Luke to take him where he needed to be to help Rey.

Yes, but that’s my point - that Luke was brought back to ANH/TESB levels to reboot his arc. Yoda says (in TLJ) “young Skywalker, always looking to the horizon” when it was actually this attitude that saved the day in RoTJ, namely that Luke ‘looked to the horizon’ and took an emotional, idealistic path with regard to the bad guys (as opposed to just killing them).

I just think returning the OT characters to pre-RoTJ status, while not so bad in theory, could’ve been handled better. Leia as rebel leader, rather than Jedi kindergarten teacher, was a no-brainer since her Skywalker heritage was a story convenience that added zero to her character. Han going back to smuggling was kind of dumb - he should have been recruiting pilots from the outer rim or something which would have kept him on his post-RoTJ path while still serving the divorce narrative.

But returning Luke to pre-RoTJ status diminishes RoTJ (and this is coming from someone who doesn’t even like RoTJ!). I think the ‘broken recluse’ idea could have been served in a cleverer way without sending Luke backwards. And he didn’t help Rey. She helped him.

Great interpretations, agree fully. Luke accomplished what his masters couldn’t when he saved his father, and he did it in his own way. Reducing him to a bitter old man who made the same mistakes with his own pupil (except worse, seeing as he considered murder a solution to his failings as a teacher) is to ignore what he accomplished in RotJ. It’s sold as a subversive take on Luke’s character, but it’s really just another reboot and ripoff of a story we’ve already been told.

I didn’t mind the idea of the Jedi Order and its orthodoxy dying out because my interpretation of the prequels has always been that the Jedi became too powerful, influential, and frankly cocky (Yoda speaks to this in AotC I believe), inviting the blindness and corruption that was ultimately the downfall of the Order and the Republic.

Luke experienced an awakening in RotJ and TLJ sets him back for the sake of making Rey look good.

I quite disagree. Luke had faith that his father could be saved and he was right. But seeing the way Luke ended ROTJ as something fundamental had changed with him and he could never fall back to his old defeatist attitude is a false interpretation of the character arc of Luke in the OT. Luke found something to believe in and he believed that the correct course was to rebuild the Jedi. But that failed in a miserable way. It was not just the actions of Luke on that night in Kylo’s hut, but that Kylo had been corrupted to start with and it was too late for Luke to reach him. How did evil penetrate his trailing of his nephew? How could that happen again? Was it in the Skywalker blood? Was it a failing of the Jedi teachings? Why had Kylo fallen? Luke went to the source looking for answers and the only thing he found was that the Jedi were flawed and that flaw had left a hole for Kylo’s fall and while Luke had not caused or been able to prevent it, he had hastened it by listening to his instincts (Ben’s first lesson if you recall - to act on instinct). He had failed his nephew. A tradgedy like that would naturally bring out your defeatist side if that was in your nature (as we saw it was indeed in two movies and still hints of it in ROTJ). It is a very realistic portrayal of a hero and a classic archetype of the former hero as mentor, who has to be convinced to teach. Nothing about the Luke shown in TLJ is contrary to the OT Luke. Quite the reverse. In fact you could say that Luke’s journey in TLJ is very much tied to how his character appeared in ROTJ. Luke is a Jedi of strong emotions. Strong faith and strong doubt.

But why would this scenario bring out Luke’s defeatist side? Vader was a fully baked evil guy when Luke faced him, and that didn’t stop Luke seeing the more hopeful side. In fact this is/was one of my biggest beefs with the ethics of RoTJ - that Luke basically prioritised a bedside conversion for his space-Hitler dad over actually fighting the war! Why would he suddenly find Kylo’s ‘possible’ future to be too overwhelming?

The idea of Luke’s momentary lapse doesn’t bother me (when he ignites the saber) but the fact that he simply gives up entirely doesn’t jive with what has been established (IMO of course!). I think the same story could have been told, including Luke’s notions of Jedi hubris and failure, without setting him back and undermining the quality that had set him apart from his mentors.

Also, since when was Yoda such a big fan of failure as a teaching tool? Yoda’s vibe in TESB was all “try not, do or do not” rather than “try, fail, and learn from it”. Yoda didn’t even want to attempt to train Luke, so concerned was he with failure (“will he finish what he begins?”). When Luke flunked the X-Wing exercise, you’ll notice Yoda said with great sorrow “that is why you fail” (as opposed to “hey, you failed, but it’s no biggie - just learn from it dude!”). When Luke flew off to Bespin, Yoda’s position was (to paraphrase) “well, we’re f**ked. Let’s get someone else!”. Even at the end of ROTS, Yoda’s position was “into exile I must go, failed I have…” and he wasn’t looking too happy about the potential lesson!

Again I maintain that it should’ve been Luke who came up with the ‘failure as teacher’ idea in TLJ and shared it with Yoda (and Rey of course), not the other way around. This would have allowed him to progress from his RoTJ position - even while acknowledging his ‘failure’ with Kylo - without undermining it to force an arc that has already been covered, as well as allowing him to actually teach Rey something.

Post
#1227973
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

yotsuya said:

Shopping Maul said:

I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.

What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.

This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.

If you didn’t notice, the scene with Yoda doesn’t alter the more Zen route he took in ROTJ. Yoda isn’t advising him on the force, he is advising him how to teach. Advising him as a fellow master. I think because Luke was so pivotal, Rian didn’t just have him fill the master/mentor role immediately. He brought back some of that negativity that characterized Luke in ANH and TESB. It created a nice character journey for Luke to take him where he needed to be to help Rey.

Yes, but that’s my point - that Luke was brought back to ANH/TESB levels to reboot his arc. Yoda says (in TLJ) “young Skywalker, always looking to the horizon” when it was actually this attitude that saved the day in RoTJ, namely that Luke ‘looked to the horizon’ and took an emotional, idealistic path with regard to the bad guys (as opposed to just killing them).

I just think returning the OT characters to pre-RoTJ status, while not so bad in theory, could’ve been handled better. Leia as rebel leader, rather than Jedi kindergarten teacher, was a no-brainer since her Skywalker heritage was a story convenience that added zero to her character. Han going back to smuggling was kind of dumb - he should have been recruiting pilots from the outer rim or something which would have kept him on his post-RoTJ path while still serving the divorce narrative.

But returning Luke to pre-RoTJ status diminishes RoTJ (and this is coming from someone who doesn’t even like RoTJ!). I think the ‘broken recluse’ idea could have been served in a cleverer way without sending Luke backwards. And he didn’t help Rey. She helped him.

Post
#1227891
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I liked Luke’s vibe in TLJ in theory, but the execution bugged me somewhat. Luke in exile was great. Luke reconsidering past events and pondering (as I have as a fan) the idea of Jedi hubris was great. Luke suggesting that the old Jedi orthodoxy had to die was great. All the stuff about the Force and ‘balance’ and how no-one has a particular claim to it was absolutely great.

What I didn’t like so much was the idea of Luke being on the back foot with all this. Having Yoda come back to give Luke a lecture on ‘failure’ annoyed me. Luke transcended his masters in RoTJ. Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to simply kill the bad guys. Luke chose a more personal, Zen route. I’d prefer he’d been doing the grumpy hobo routine in TLJ as an act - similar to Yoda’s initial test in TESB. This could have been his way of forcing Rey to take her destiny into her own hands, a new and different path away from the usual formalised Jedi training routine. Once Rey had flown off to confront Kylo, Luke could have revealed his cunning duplicity to Yoda and they could’ve burned down the Jedi tree together. Then, after Luke’s great skype-battle with Kylo, Rey could’ve realised what he’d done and be like “you sly devil”.

This way he could’ve played the hobo but still been the Luke we all love and respect without being diminished.

Post
#1226960
Topic
Has Star Wars finally &quot;jumped the shark&quot;?
Time

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

With regards to Rey, whatever fanboy misgivings I may personally have about the writing, I do think its great that Kathleen K. and co. have given young girls their own Luke Skywalker to look up to and dress up as.

I’m in two minds about this, because to me it feels like putting the cart before the horse. I agree with the idea that these franchises could use a lot more female protagonists and antagonists, and that gender should not be a determining factor in casting a character in general. As such on average there should be about an equal number of male/female protagonists, and antagonists. However, I consider the statement, that young girls cannot relate to or identify with Luke Skywalker, because he’s male to be inherently sexist. The character of Luke Skywalker is an avatar for the desires and hopes of both men and women. As such, it shouldn’t matter, if the character is portrayed by a man or a woman. Lucas wasn’t trying to cater to a specific gender group when he created the character. Consequently, Luke could have been a girl, and the story would have played out in exactly the same way. The only time the gender of a character matters, is when that character, has specific traits, that are gender specific, or if you want to specifically relate to a specific gender group. In all other cases casting should be driven by having equal representation of men and women, not by the sexist notion, that men can only relate to men, and women only relate to women.

Honestly Dre, and I’m not being deliberately evasive here, I wasn’t thinking that deeply about what I was saying. Of course girls can relate to Luke Skywalker (there are angry female Youtubers doing just that as they admonish the Kennedy/RJ version of Luke) but I was talking in a basic cosplay sense of it ie now there’s a ‘girl’ Luke that gives little girls the option of dressing up as (and admiring at whatever level) a female Star Wars hero in the Skywalker mold.

Post
#1226886
Topic
Has Star Wars finally &quot;jumped the shark&quot;?
Time

moviefreakedmind said:

Shopping Maul said:

and I love seeing kids responding to Rey and Kylo and the new cast.

Why?

I think it’s just really cool how this franchise had endured across generations. Most films from 1977 are just ‘old movies from 1977’ now. With SW we are still following the same story 40 years later! It’s so awesome to see kids at Comicon dressed as Rey and Kylo and Phasma, knowing that I was enjoying the exact same feelings when I was their age. Call me sentimental I guess!

With regards to Rey, whatever fanboy misgivings I may personally have about the writing, I do think its great that Kathleen K. and co. have given young girls their own Luke Skywalker to look up to and dress up as.

Post
#1226601
Topic
Has Star Wars finally &quot;jumped the shark&quot;?
Time

I think Star Wars will just carry on more or less forever (like Star Trek) with ebbs and flows in popularity. And, like Star Trek, fans will continue to draw their own canon-lines.

Personally I think the series pole-vaulted its shark in 1983. I guess I’ve chosen a particularly uncompromising shark! But my own fannish conservatism aside, I really enjoy the new movies as a kind of ‘what if’ observation, and I love seeing kids responding to Rey and Kylo and the new cast.

The thing that saddens me the most is the very reason this site exists - namely that Star Wars 1977-1983 does not exist and the kids who are discovering this wonderful universe can only reference the deeply inferior (IMO) Special Editions and never get a true sense of where this incredible saga came from.

Post
#1225695
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I think Mon Mothma should have been Snoke. Hear me out…

What if instead of CGI Snoke we’d been presented with a hooded female/crone-type figure (something like Palpatine in the prequels but a woman)? She’d have the same hologram relationship with Kylo and Hux in TFA, and of course speculation would run rampant as to who she was. Did Palpatine have a sister? Is she Plagueis, or a Kenobi, or Luke’s great grandmother etc etc.

In TLJ we’d suspect Holdo on the back of the Poe/Holdo dynamic. But this would be rebutted when Holdo does her self-sacrifice. Maybe Commander D’arcy might be looking suspicious at this point (possibly a double agent for Mothma) - or any of the other women populating the Resistance. Amongst all this we’d get a small scene with Mon Mothma. She and Leia would share a tender moment where Mothma, formerly Ben Solo’s mentor/tutor during the formation of the New Republic and now running a college campus/military training centre in the Bothan system, would express to Leia that Ben had a good soul and will surely find the right path. Fans would write the scene off (for good or ill) as mere fan service and pay it little heed. Basically it would mirror the Palpatine/Sidious vibe of the PT but in this instance the audience would have no idea.

So in ep IX Snokette would be revealed to be Mon Mothma. It turns out that back in the day she’d been an confidant/aide to Palpatine and he’d shown her the Dark Side (people would speculate as to whether they’d been Sith Lords with special benefits but the film wouldn’t state so). Mothma had agreed to kill the Bothan spies herself and deliver the false information to the rebels, in exchange for the Bothan system being spared as well as a seat of power at Palpatine’s right hand. The rebel victory scuttled her plans which bore bitter fruit in the intervening years. While Han and Leia were off rebuilding the Republic, Mothma was secretly rebuilding the Empire and filling poor neglected Ben’s head with lies about how his sword-tutor (uncle Luke) had selfishly betrayed his grandfather and brought about the destruction of nice old Palpatine’s vision for a unified galaxy.

I’m sure there are a million better ideas out there, but here is an example of a wild story concept that would completely honour the OT and its conclusion whilst providing a plausible reason/motivation for things to go awry down the line. We’d get a good motivation for a Palpatine successor, a good motivation for Ben’s switching sides, a new war situation that doesn’t simply write off the RoTJ victory, and the ‘subversion’ would be in the new way we would interpret the “many Bothans died…” scene.

P.S. as soon as I wrote this I googled ‘Mon Mothma double agent’ to see if anyone else had had the same idea and found this Reddit article. It doesn’t propose her as a ‘new Palpatine for the ST’ but it does speculate she was on his side during RoTJ (and with benefits)…
https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/5kttz6/mon_mothma_is_really_palpatines_wifesecret/

Post
#1224925
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

The bottom line is that JJ didn’t care. As an audience we saw Snoke (along with all the other ‘mystery boxes’) and were like “wow, who is this guy? Where did he come from? Is that big scar a clue? What happened after the decisive Endor victory etc etc” and JJ was simply going “uh, we need an Emperor, a Death Star, a desert planet, a cantina, a Vader, a landspeeder…”

Post
#1223819
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

From Holdo’s perspective, there’s no guarantee whatsoever that Poe will lie over like a lap dog and accept her plan. I don’t know why you think she should be able to assume this just because we as an audience see he does later, but that she shouldn’t have confidence that she can take back control. It makes a whole lot more sense to me that she’d trust her and her compatriots’ skills more than she’d trust Poe’s judgment, especially considering the whole reason she hasn’t told Poe in the first place is she doesn’t trust his judgment. She’s completely consistent here, staying steadfast to her plan and her judgment of Poe all the way (like I said, Poe attempting mutiny only serves to make her trust him less).

Not to mention, we can’t even really know for sure that Poe would’ve taken it well. There’s an argument to be made that having Leia tell the plan to him after his plan and mutiny was dead and buried and this was the only option left made him more open to Holdo’s plan. Who knows if in the moment, while Poe was trying to get everything to work, that he would’ve just given up and rolled over.

But this whole idea of Poe being untrustworthy is so bizarrely contrived. There’s nothing up to this point that indicates he has ill intentions or would not be amenable to Holdo’s plan. Okay, he disobeyed Leia’s order to retreat, but it turned out to be the right call given that the Dreadnaught would have destroyed them all upon re-entry into normal space. Even immediately after his demotion he is given the green light to ‘jump in an X-Wing and blow something up’ which shows that there is significant ambiguity to Leia’s position in this regard.

And why doesn’t he trust Holdo? It can’t be a gender thing because he happily works alongside a whole bunch of very capable women - Leia included! It can’t be Holdo’s appearance given that he also works alongside aliens, droids, and lobsters in flight suits. It’s like this whole “she’s not what I expected” routine from Poe is suddenly pulled out of thin air to force a conflict in order to generate this particular storyline.

And what’s the lesson here? What if a similar situation arises and the next leader who withholds information turns out to be a traitor after all? Will Poe sit idly by because, well, you must never question authority?