Servii

This relates to the show because Luke does the same thing in the ST that Kenobi and Yoda do between the PT and OT.

The difference is that Obi-Wan and Yoda were actively being hunted by the ruling galactic government. They had no choice but to stay hidden and bide their time. Meanwhile, Luke had plenty of better choices he could have made in that moment.

And his quest led him to the conclusion that he had followed the Republic era Jedi in a failed method of training.

That’s precisely the problem. Why did Luke stick to the failed old methods of Jedi training? He had no reason to do that, and given his unusual life experiences as a Jedi and his strong connections to his friends, he would know better than to just recreate the old Jedi Order with all its old flaws. It’s out of character, and only serves to brush aside Luke’s Jedi Order as unimportant for the sake of propping up the ST’s soft reboot of the franchise.

Also, look at Anakin.

Anakin’s sudden switch to hating all the Jedi and murdering them all is one of the most criticized aspects of the prequels. Though at least that had some sort of context for his sudden turn. The ST just did a worse, even more rushed version of that.

And his first lesson with Kenobi was to act on instinct.

“Luke, this challenge with the training remote may seem silly, but there may come a time when you feel the need to sneak into your nephew’s room while he’s sleeping, probe his mind, and draw your laser sword over his unconscious body. And this will help prepare you for that.”

The whole chain of events surrounding the destruction of Luke’s temple is nonsensical. “Oh, my uncle apparently just tried to kill me, so I’m gonna proceed to murder all my friends.” Then, Luke just blames the Jedi as a whole for his mistake and screws off. He doesn’t contact Han or Leia. He doesn’t frantically go after Ben to try to right the situation. He just leaves to go die.

I fail to see how character regression is “epic.” And despite having different protagonists, these movies are still sequels to the OT, and meant to tell a continuing story. Whatever creative choices they make with the characters in the sequels will retroactively affect the original stories. TLJ solidifies that Luke was always just a loser on the inside who briefly became a strong jedi before returning back to his “true” whiny self.

Edit: It’d probably be best if we returned to talking about the show.

I don’t know, I think that raises more questions about why Obi-Wan would be looking after the son of the man who murdered his friend rather than the daughter of his friend. And combining Luke’s father, with all of his traits as described by Obi-Wan, and Vader into the same character makes for a more interesting story.

Episode I: The Hidden Menace

I actually prefer this over “The Phantom Menace.” It rolls off the tongue better and connects back to “The Hidden Fortress.”

Servii said:

I’m not a strict purist, so I don’t mind the idea of older films being tweaked or visually polished in small ways

I’ve changed my mind since I wrote this. I want all the original compositing work, too. As much as I love D+77 and Despecialized, you’re aware as you’re watching them that they’re hybrid versions, and it’s apparent when they switch between original and SE sources. I don’t mind things like mild DNR or AI processing to enhance an image as long as the sources are theatrically authentic. In particular, I really like 4K83 Remastered for that reason.

rocknroll41 said:

https://www.ign.com/articles/taika-waititi-doesnt-know-if-his-star-wars-movie-will-be-made?amp=1

It’s dead, Jim…

Well, shoot. I was actually kind of looking forward to this one.

Realistically, Anakin should have been fully on the Dark Side after the Tusken massacre. The Dark Side is supposed to be like a drug that takes hold of you once you tap into it. The act of hate-fueled murder should have been more than enough to push him over the edge. It should have been a more damning moment for Anakin, since him hesitantly killing Dooku or attacking Mace is much less severe by comparison.

So, currently, that marathon would be

TPM
AotC
TCW
RotS
Solo
OWK
Rebels
Rogue One
ANH
ESB
RotJ
Mando
BoBF
TFA
TLJ
TRoS

If I tried this, I’d probably cut out TCW and Rebels just because of how much time they’d take up. I’ve never done this, but I did something similar as a kid when I watched 1-6 with the Clone Wars microseries between II and III.

I think they addressed the Special Editions well enough in their prequel reviews. They criticized the added CGI visual clutter.

The RLM guys are burnt out on Star Wars, anyway. They can’t muster the energy to get worked up about it anymore.

(beyond Piett sticking too closely to the Emperor’s orders for the Star Destroyers to hold their fire)

He should’ve intensified forward firepower sooner smh

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

As we see, it is more than a minor inconvenience for him. It leads to his total annihilation. The films don’t indicate when Palpatine came to life again. My guess has been that something to do with Grogu is going to prove to be a key to his return. Though I see that in the current EU (which is very similar to the Legends EU) he finds a host body almost immediately. Still he died and was able to preserve his essence and transfer to a different body. His plans for the Final Order were delayed and his power in the galaxy evaporated, except on the outer rim where the First Order came together from the remnants of his Empire. So his death in the shaft did serve a purpose as it gave the galaxy 30 years of freedom which ultimately led to the destruction of the Final Order fleet and to Sidious himself. Sideous had not perfected the creation of a host body so there is no way he could show up to do anything and had to find a suitable stand in, which was Snoke. So Anakin’s actions in ROTJ were crucial to Palpatine’s eventual total demise.

Wouldn’t he have had to transfer into the clone when the Death Star blew up anyway? Anakin just made it happen a few minutes sooner.

Insert the common “battle meditation” headcanon that roughly states that Palpatine’s death enabled the Rebels to start overwhelming the DSII/Death Squadron and get far enough into the station to blow it up. It’s kind of stupid, but it sorta works.

There’s nothing on screen that suggests that.

That’s why it’s headcanon. Though I’m pretty sure the idea originated from the Thrawn trilogy. Thrawn concludes that the Imperial fleet fell to pieces at Endor because of the loss of the Emperor’s presence holding everything together.

His existence never erases Anakin balancing the force. He creates Snoke and turns Ben into Kylo Ren. That creates the new imbalance that results in Rey being a new Chosen One.

If Palpatine created/manipulated the people who broke the balance, then that means his survival did nullify the balance that Anakin was supposed to bring. If he’s alive, even barely alive, then the Sith still exist and nothing about the imbalance has changed.

cap said:

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

Losing control of the Empire was a minor inconvenience for Sidious, and it had more to do with the rebels blowing up the Death Star than with Anakin throwing Sidious down that shaft, which ultimately accomplished nothing. Sidious could have shown up and controlled what was left of the Empire, but the Empire had been sufficiently weakened that the First Order and secret control were the better way to go.

The Empire was weakened by that “Operation Cinder” nonsense. The Empire still had control of the galaxy after Endor. Palpatine just ordered them to throw it all away, despite the fact that he was still alive on Exegol.

Anchorhead said:

Worth noting (for myself personally); Star Wars - the original film in 1977 is influence-proof in my world. I NEVER watch it and feel any connection to the 40+ years of films\shows\novels\etc that came after.

For that reason, I don’t battle the franchise. I have long been a watch what you like, ignore what you don’t fan.
I don’t know what else I can say about the show or how I feel about it.

But I’m sure I’ll come up with something. 😉

That’s a good mindset to approach Star Wars with.

I mean, they’re free to try.

darklordoftech said:

The Star Wars Legends EU is full of dumb stuff, contradictions, and retcons, but the internet seems to be hell-bent on defending it.

Because every story in the EU had the courtesy to be optional. Subpar stories generally got ignored or glossed over by later authors. And the EU was something that developed organically along with the movies and evolved over time. It had its low points, and the continuity was often messy, but when the old EU was good, it got really good, and took the Universe in interesting new directions.

The new Canon has taken many of the worst aspects of the old EU and brought them back in even worse ways. And is already rife with inconsistencies despite being started much more recently and with the express intention of having greater consistency across canon material. Not to mention, it’s generally staler and less innovative in its approach to the setting.

It bugs me when fans dismiss the old EU as worthless simply because a corporation doesn’t recognize it as official Canon.

I think that too much timeline-jumping is best avoided. With spinoff stuff, chronology isn’t as much of a problem, but splitting up the trilogy movies would be needlessly confusing. Each trilogy should be viewed and taken in as a full group of three. Anything else, except for possibly Machete Order, is an overcomplication.

Of course, excluding any of the OT movies for the sake of the later movies and shows is a no-go. The OT is a cultural landmark and takes precedence over everything else.

yotsuya said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

George’s answer may have been “Word of God” at one point, but it has since been decanonized.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

But the only thing Anakin did to fulfill that role was kill the Emperor, and since TROS revealed that he did not actually kill the Emperor, he can’t be the Chosen One. It must be Rey.

Nope. Anakin is the Chosen One. Anakin’s dialog in TROS proves that. “Bring blance Rey, as I did”. So Anakin brought balance as prophesied. Rey is a new person for a new task. The Sith acolytes have resurrected Palpatine and she is there to set that right. Anakin’s role was not negated or rewritten. Palpatine died in ROTJ (he said so himself) and has been brought back to cause trouble again. Anakin killed Palpatine in ROTJ and Rey has to kill him again in TROS.

I mean, if Palpatine canonically was prepared for the contingency of dying on the Death Star, had a clone body on Exegol prepared, and immediately transferred his essence to the new body, does that even really count as a true death? Remember, it’s canon that Palpatine transferred his spirit to the clone body immediately. It’s not like it took him 30 years to be alive again. He just spent that time preparing his fleet and whispering in Ben Solo’s head.

Anakin’s voice pays lip service to his prophesied status, but that isn’t actually backed up by what happens.

It’s a shame. The one upside I thought we’d get out of Obi-Wan and Vader meeting again would be that we’d finally get to see what Vader meant when he said “Obi-Wan once thought as you do.” That’s something that RotS didn’t address properly, so I figured you might as well address it in this show. It wouldn’t be an ideal solution, but it would be something worthwhile. We still don’t have that moment.

yotsuya said:

adywan said:

yotsuya said:

Your summary is over simplistic. I’m sure there are similarities, but it is not the exact same situation. For one thing, the first time Kenobi is just going to delay and fully intends to return (but you never know). The second time he is leaving and knows he won’t rejoin them. The reaction of those around him is different and the story plays out different. There is a ghost of a similarity between the two incidents and you are focusing on that rather than the whole picture.

It’s not over simplistic at all. They’re the exact same senario. But not once does he state or it’s even hinted at that he will rejoin them during the first time or second. The only thing even mentioned about him returning was the promise to leia that she will see him again. But the fact that they used the same 3 character to have the same interaction in the two episodes make it more than just “similarities”

yotsuya said:

Also, getting stabbed in the gut can lead to instant death or a recoverable injury depending on where it was and how it was delivered. Qui-gon was stabbed (very clearly) through the middle of his gut. Severing his main artery and vein and possibly severing his spine and damaging the organs in front. He was human after all. We don’t see where Reva gets stabbed. In the gut, but just how is not shown. Same with the grand inquisitor (but he is not human so we don’t know what internal damage he might have sustained). Maul is cut in half, but other than an instant spray of blood, there is no blood. So whatever was cut was sealed. So he could have lived (with some help). He also isn’t human so we don’t know his internal organ arrangement to know what was cut off. Reva is clearly still wounded when she gets to Tatooine. So all the wounds are not the same so expecting the same outcome is unrealistic.

So, a weapon that we see generates so much heat that, when trust into a steel door, instantly starts turning it into molten metal, can get thrust into a human characters body for the length of time that Vader thrust it into Reva ( and we do see where he stabs her) and not kill her? her innards would be boiled to hell. It doesn’t matter that it wasn’t through her spine, it was still right next to it and, in the time the sabre is inserted, there would be nothing left. If it had just been a quick thrust in and out , it could have been believable that she was ok. But it’s held in there a long time. And, apart from a little wincing at the beginning of ep6, she seemed perfectly fine when she got to the Lars homestead. Also, you can clearly see that she was stabbed through the chest at an angle, then when we see her on Tatooine, she just has a makeshift bandage around her waist . When characters can just miraculously survive these type of injuries it makes it all a joke. Takes any form of believability out of it.

The angle looks like stomach or spleen to kidney, but not her spine. And they never cover what settings a lightsaber has. Perhaps it has high and low power for different uses. It reportedly had its origins as a cutting tool. And flesh and metal have different heat conductive properties. So I don’t see a problem.

Different power settings? That’s definitely just headcanon. There’s nothing to imply that you can freely toggle how deadly a lightsaber is. And why would Vader have it on a nonlethal setting, anyway?

There are certain Star Wars stories outside of the movies where I can look at them and say, “Yeah, I can believe that these events happened between this movie and that movie. That’s plausible.” It doesn’t look like this show will be one of those stories. It feels much more like an alternate timeline.

If this had been a smaller-scale story, about Obi-Wan living his life and solving local conflicts on Tatooine, I might have thought differently.

Vladius said:

I’ll say again that it’s my opinion that Obi Wan and Yoda are not telling Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor. The way it’s worded, Obi Wan is essentially saying that Luke has to be willing to kill his father, not that he has to. Luke is saying “I can’t” do it which is placing limits on himself about what he can do if the need arises. The words Yoda uses are “confront” and “conquer” which are not the same thing as “kill” and “assassinate.” Yoda tells Luke that he needs to confront Vader again in order to become a Jedi. What does that mean?

I think it’s closer to what they call the Jedi trials to become a Knight in the prequels. It’s some kind of spiritual test. Exactly like when Luke faced the vision of Vader in the cave in Dagobah in ESB. We see the progression: facing Vader in the cave and failing because he brought his fears and weapons, then again failing when confronting the real Vader in Cloud City for the same reasons and lack of preparation, and then finally in ROTJ he is actually ready, he’s made some peace within himself that Vader is his father and he has the proper training and attitude. But he has to face his fears again in order to pass the test and truly become a Jedi. Whether that means killing Vader or something else happening is unclear and dependent on how it plays out.

Moreover, what Luke does in the throne room is IRRELEVANT to the Battle of Endor. That’s made very clear. “Soon I’ll be dead, and you with me.” If all goes according to Luke’s plan they’re all going to get blown up anyway. The real battle is spiritual, it’s over Luke’s soul and Vader’s soul. If he did run in there and manage to somehow kill both of them, there’s still the whole battle left. Yoda and Obi Wan must have known that. If you say, oh well, Revenge of the Sith shows them trying to kill Palpatine and Vader and failing, I would say exactly! So they know that’s a nonstarter especially for someone who’s not even a full Jedi like Luke. They’re not sending him to die necessarily but they are sending him for a spiritual confrontation of some kind.

I think Return of the Jedi in general is really misunderstood and that all three original movies are equally good.

With that said, in the Obi Wan show there isn’t really a good reason for Obi Wan not to kill Vader other than just repeating the same pity that he had in ROTS.

Well said.

“Star Wars was always poorly written” is an argument I really take issue with. If the original film were poorly written, none of us would even be here with our attachment to this franchise.

Bridger12 said:

I just wish the fanbase wasn’t so passionate and entitled all the time, because that’s the mentality of the Sith.

In general, it’s the people who are still on board with current Star Wars that are more passionate and emotional. Most of the people who are checked out at this point can’t even bring themselves to be mad anymore. They may sound cynical and entitled to you, but they’ve been made numb by repeated disappointment.

I think Luke would have been visibly more haunted and traumatized by the events of Empire in Kurtz’s version, and this would partly justify his “going off into the sunset” alone at the end.