Sambarker04

Callum N said:

Oh wow, that’s all incredibly informative, thank you so much! So basically the Dolby Digital found on the UHD is the 2005 mix, and that 2005 mix is continued on in the DTS-HD tracks found on the first Blu-rays released for the film, e.g the 5.1 DTS-HD track? I suppose my question after this would be (especially as I see a fair amount of folks hemming and hawing about it when asked it), as someone who clearly or at least probably knows what the best audios are in order, is the DTS-HD MA a definite improvement over the Dolby Digital tracks? The answer strikes me as obvious based on the name alone regardless of one’s audio knowledge, but obviously there can always be futzing about happening. Either way, you would expect that '05 mix to sound as great as the DTS-HD; regardless of the format, it seemed to be a fair slight quieter when played at the exact same volume as the DTS-HD. I might just have to sell off the UK 4Ks I got and try get the US ones to retain all the audios I want. You might have something on that also in terms of how loud the tracks are, and if so that’d be incredible.

Thanks. Though I should let you know that the US UHD release is the same as the UK one with the language options, so just to let you know.

Callum N said:

Excellent thread and work on this! You strike me as an expert on these matters, so I wanted to ask you what is meant to be the very original theatrical mix? I’m from the UK and I’ve got the UHD and Blu-ray, the former containing the Atmos track and English Dolby Digital 5.1, the latter a 5.1 DTS-HD mix. The DTS-HD mix, to my ears, sounds incredible, and its frustrating that - like many of the other Pixar films on UHD in the UK - it isn’t included on the 4K. The thing is, I’ve been informed that the Dolby Digital track found on the UHD is supposedly the original theatrical audio track. Maybe I don’t understand, or maybe Disney chose to neuter the audio, but I watched through the film with the DD track and it didn’t sound as robust as the 5.1 or how I would presume such a track as that would sound. So I guess my question is: what is meant to be TS1’s original audio? Is it a 5.1 DD or something else entirely? And if the DD is the original track, is it me or the disc that is resulting in a lesser sound? I have this same issue with a handful of the other Pixar UHD audios, like Monsters Inc., which also has a robust 5.1 on the Blu-ray and not the UHD which contains a 5.1 DD that is likewise meant to be the original theatrical audio. Thanks for any information you can provide!

Interesting. So to give you an idea, Toy Story was in fact originally screened in 5.1 surround using Dolby Digital sound, in fact the 5.1 audio was later preserved when the film came out on LaserDisc in the US and Japan, though it’s pretty obvious that films’ soundtracks at the time would be stored on either 6-track analog tapes or on 16-bit PCM tracks (as with the case for films mastered in CDS such as Terminator 2 and Edward Scissorhands), which is why the Dolby Surround downmixes from the digital PCM track on LD tend to be more crystal clear than Dolby Digital, especially since the film’s audio reels had to be re-captured twice for the DTS LaserDisc and the first DVD releases, since if you sync the LD DD mix or the DTS LD mix to the DVD DD mix or the LD DD, it would start fine until the end where it goes out of sync, especially since I would know analog audio reels were used not just because of it, but also the errors the DTS LD mix. I talked about it in the description, so you can check it out. DTS apparently was designed to be as close to CD audio as possible, hence their logo of “The Digital Experience” using a CD on their symbol and promotional poster. as there are less compression, and it uses 20-bit audio rather than 16-bit that DD and PCM use.

In fact, the DD track from the UHD you were talking about was NOT the original theatrical mix, it is the 2005 remix of the film that you can also find on the BD. I honestly have no idea why Disney or Pixar chose to do that, but my guess was that it was done to match their tradition of their films being mixed to 6.1 (or 5.1 EX) starting with the second film, which is why A Bug’s Life would later get the same treatment when it was first released on Blu-ray.
Here’s a screencap of the DD track from the UHD to give you an idea

To give you an idea (from left to right), these include parts that were added in the new mix. First is an LFE sample of Rex’s foot stomping, Woody’s microphone feedback from the rear channels, the kids cheering when they found out Andy got Buzz, and the footsteps as they head back downstairs. So, if you have the 2000 DVD release, or listened to the Flemish track or the audio description track on the BD, they contain the original theatrical mixes.

In honour of the loss of the legendary VTuber Gawr Gura (yes i know where she’s at now), I decided to make this fanedit for fun, mostly due to her love of this film. Nothing much to say. Here’s a screencap of what it looks like:

Photoshop has been applied for the masking of Gura’s reaction and VEGAS Pro’s masking for her face.

Video sources:

• [Ratatouille] Cozy movie watch time (archived and directly muxed by HoloPirates)
• NA Blu-ray (Main film; original English version)

Audio sources:

• NA Blu-ray (PCM track for whole film)
• UK Blu-ray (PCM track for closing logos)
  merged together into a DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 ES Matrix track.

Subtitles:

• English SDH (NA Blu-ray)
• English SDH (NTSC FYC Screener DVD)
• CC (NTSC FYC Screener DVD)

Feel free to PM me if you want to see it. It’s honestly a chill watch too because of the movie’s atmosphere and Gura’s quiet voice, as she was sick during this watchalong.

UPDATE (18/10/2025): So I realised that the Dolby Stereo mix is a bit muffled when compared to the DTS track, and I can theorise that this is how Disney used to master audio digitally on their LDs back then, though the LD was released just a few months after their first THX LD with Aladdin, so it’s possible that THX was too late to find out what Disney was doing. So to fix this problem, I went ahead and equalised it using the raw optical audio from Thunderbean’s 35mm scan as a reference so you can get crystal clear sound, especially since I recall people claiming Aladdin’s 35mm audio is better than the LaserDisc, and apparently the same thing can be said for Nightmare, since the 35mm audio is way clearer than the LD. Also, as an added bonus, it will also include a Dolby Headphone track of the 1997 mix, since I feel like it, since I already did it with Toy Story.

MoviesGamesMusic said:

Could the 4K and open matte be combined to make the ‘best’ possible version available?

Not really. Thunderbean converted the framerate from the scanned 24fps to 23.976fps, and the color in the print is way too saturated and brightness limited to compare it to the 4K.

jakeandelwooduk said:

This is some awesome work Sambarker04, i’m still in awe at the Toy Story reconstruction, i’m thrilled you will include the open matte scan as a bonus, i love the open matte format.

Thanks. ☺️

Actually, I’ll stick to the 4K footage. Don’t worry. I’ll still include the open matte scan as a bonus.

ValenStudios said:

Hold on, open matte? Thought the film was hard matted going off the pan and scan VHS’ and such.

You think so?

UPDATE (13/10/2025): Good news, Greg Z happens to have the open matte scan, so I’m using that for this preservation.

So, while I was waiting for my Nightmare project to complete, I felt like I needed something to make this more like definitive. If you didn’t know, the 35mm scan was done by Steve Stanchfield and included on his “untitled” BDs, though sources I can find stated that it was Thunderbean, so I don’t know if Steve himself was part of the company, and since the reported 720p version I found claimed it was open matte, it doesn’t seem to be, and since the 1080p encode I have had a frame rate conversion unlike the 4K HDR version, and since the 1080p version showed more detail than the 4K, I felt like I need to find anyone who happens to own the untitled BD to PM me the original open matte scan so I can preserve it and use it for my project, and for anyone who was dying to see it like me. As an added bonus, I felt like I also wanted to find others too since it has been talked about in Blu-ray.com’s forums such as an open matte scan of Who Framed Roger Rabbit, since even though screenshots of it exist, a remux of it hasn’t surfaced online to my knowledge. Though, thankfully, Robin Hood did have its open matte version preserved, which is cool. If any of you happen to find other movies that got an open matte 35mm BD release by Thunderbean, let me know. 😉

UPDATE (12/10/25): So for fun, I decided to add extras into this preservation because why not. The extras will contain my lossless captures of the bonus content from the Deluxe CAV release, since it contains content missing since the Special Edition DVD, my LaserDisc preservations of two of Burton’s shorts he did for Disney, since Disney unfortunately didn’t remaster them into HD and in best visual and audible quality, as well as exclusive ones, such as Danny Elfman’s demos from the extremely limited Danny Elfman and Tim Burton Music Box, the 2006 re-release of the soundtrack’s Best Buy-exclusive second disc, the Jill Jacobs workprint, a read-along of the original poem from an odd CD I found on eBay, promos for the Russian television premiere (featuring music from The Incredibles…for some reason) and a Russian dubbing featurette. There will be more in the future, so stay tuned.

ForestGWolfy said:

Sambarker04 said:

stretch009 said:

The 1080p 35mm scan has a AVC bitrate of 25mbps FWIW.

Thanks. I’ve been told the errors weren’t the case as well. In fact, I just received the version.

Unrelated topic but are there ither Disney 35mm scans you ar also working on like oliver and company, rescuers down under, little emrmaid (1989 original 35mm), pocahontas, hunchback of notre dame, hercules and tarzan ?

I don’t have copies of those movies, so I wouldn’t do it.

I loved the Roger Rabbit shorts, and it’s really nice that I was able to own a sample copy of the compilation on LaserDisc due to how rare it was, with Disney recalling copies of it due to a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it inappropriate gag the animators slipped in on “Trail Mix-Up”, and because I wanted to know what the original Dolby Stereo mixes sound like and what the original filmed master of said short looks like, since the DVD and Blu-ray have those shorts remixed to 5.1 twice, and with said short, it was digitally sourced due to it being animated using the CAPS system.

The entire disc has been preserved in lossless quality, so you won’t have to worry about blurry chroma and bitrate artifacts.

And of course, PM me if you want this preservation.

UPDATE (09/10/2025): Got the Greek DVD. It’s pretty much the same as the 1999 PAL releases, so I’m good to go.

UPDATE (07/10/2025): Finally got the Japanese BD. And yes, it is identical to the US release, including the American warning screens and the D-BOX data which was missing in the UK BD, despite being mentioned. Though the Japanese tracks are odd in this one. I can tell when I looked at the Japanese Dolby TrueHD track on Audacity that Disney lost the original uncompressed audio of the Japanese dub, so they just take the 5.1 Dolby Digital track from the JP Collector’s Edition DVD, replace the LFE channel with the one from the 2008 mix, and call it a day, so it looks like I have to wait until I grabbed the 2002 JP DVD to see if the LFE channel was just a change by Disney themselves for the JP dub on the BD.

UPDATE (06/10/25): Finally got the original Dolby Surround LD. Turns out there’s no need for a patch. This was due to the fact that we get more audio from it than the Deluxe LD, and also due to the side transition being identical to the reel transition from 2 to 3, hence the cut in the latter release.

I did also get the original 1999 UK DVD and the 2002 German Special Edition DVD as a bonus. I’m also expected to get the Japanese Blu-ray tomorrow as I am posting this. The reason I want this is due to languages and subtitles being identical to the US release, only with the addition of a Japanese track and subtitles.

I’ll say rn that if no one is able to find the original BD of the open matte scan by the time I complete everything I need for the preservation, I’ll still use the official 4K master for it, especially since this is the same scenario as with the Disney logo on my theatrical reconstruction of Toy Story, where it’s a temporary case for using AI upscaled footage.

Sambarker04 said:

UPDATE (04/10/2025): Okay, plan B, rather than just use Disney’s official 4K remaster, I’ll use the original 1080p Thunderbean scan, mostly because of more detail in the image and how it looks really cool to me. I do have proof about the AI upscale of the scan here just to let you know.

So yeah, apologies to anyone who wanted to see it in 4K.

For this new source, I’ll use the 1998 Japanese DVD master for the grading since, from what I can guess, it is the same transfer used on the LaserDiscs, which is why it’s non-anamorphic, especially since the scan is way too saturated and bright. The JP DVD will be used for patching the missing frames.

Actually, I need to find a remux of it, since I don’t know if the 1080p file I got and the reported 720p file had their frame rates to 23.976, since the 35mm scan of the 1969 re-release of Peter Pan has it in 24fps. In case you want to know, here’s the MediaInfo of the 1080p version.

General
Unique ID                                : 305061685722160848457308697892272960038 (0xE580BE58C0A43A32BBD40CCA675B7226)
Complete name                            : C:\Users\Sam\Videos\The Nightmare Before Christmas.1993.35mm.1080p.mkv
Format                                   : Matroska
Format version                           : Version 4
File size                                : 10.2 GiB
Duration                                 : 1 h 16 min
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 19.2 Mb/s
Frame rate                               : 23.976 FPS
Encoded date                             : 2023-11-28 00:14:55 UTC
Writing application                      : mkvmerge 68.0.0 ('The Curtain') 64-bit
Writing library                          : libebml v1.4.2 + libmatroska v1.6.4

Video
ID                                       : 1
ID in the original source medium         : 4113 (0x1011)
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High@L4.1
Format settings                          : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames        : 4 frames
Format settings, Slice count             : 4 slices per frame
Codec ID                                 : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration                                 : 1 h 16 min
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 17.4 Mb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 29.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Active width                             : 1 777 pixels
Active height                            : 1 069 pixels
Active display aspect ratio              : 5:3
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.350
Stream size                              : 9.26 GiB (91%)
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray

Audio #1
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AC-3
Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 3
Commercial name                          : Dolby Digital
Codec ID                                 : A_AC3
Duration                                 : 1 h 16 min
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 256 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 139 MiB (1%)
Title                                    : MVO Карусель
Language                                 : Russian
Service kind                             : Complete Main
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No
Dialog Normalization                     : -31 dB
dialnorm_Average                         : -31 dB
dialnorm_Minimum                         : -31 dB
dialnorm_Maximum                         : -31 dB

Audio #2
ID                                       : 3
ID in the original source medium         : 4352 (0x1100)
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little / Signed
Codec ID                                 : A_PCM/INT/LIT
Duration                                 : 1 h 16 min
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 30.000 FPS (1600 SPF)
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 837 MiB (8%)
Title                                    : Original
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray

Menu
00:00:00.000                             : en:Chapter 01
00:04:07.205                             : en:Chapter 02
00:11:06.832                             : en:Chapter 03
00:13:50.120                             : en:Chapter 04
00:17:36.513                             : en:Chapter 05
00:24:14.661                             : en:Chapter 06
00:32:07.467                             : en:Chapter 07
00:40:33.722                             : en:Chapter 08
00:47:41.149                             : en:Chapter 09
00:54:43.113                             : en:Chapter 10
00:59:37.282                             : en:Chapter 11
01:05:01.105                             : en:Chapter 12
01:08:36.946                             : en:Chapter 13

and here for the 720p version

General

Unique ID                                : 64375619929596748989707303955415704265 (0x306E4B1CFD3CBC32D43046B6D79C22C9)
Complete name                            : The Nightmare Before Christmas 1993 Thunderbean Scan Open Matte 720p BluRay FLAC2.0 x264-R40.mkv
Format                                   : Matroska
Format version                           : Version 4
File size                                : 3.81 GiB
Duration                                 : 1 h 16 min
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 7 162 kb/s
Movie name                               : The Nightmare Before Christmas (1993) [Thunderbean Scan Open Matte]
Encoded date                             : UTC 2022-05-20 16:53:25
Writing application                      : mkvmerge v67.0.0 ('Under Stars'[Image: wink.gif] 64-bit
Writing library                          : libebml v1.4.2 + libmatroska v1.6.4

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High@L4.1
Format settings                          : CABAC / 9 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames        : 9 frames
Codec ID                                 : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration                                 : 1 h 16 min
Bit rate                                 : 6 466 kb/s
Width                                    : 1 224 pixels
Height                                   : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 1.700
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.306
Stream size                              : 3.44 GiB (90%)
Writing library                          : x264 core 164 r3094+49M 0246926 devel [(8 & 10)-bit@all X86_64]
Encoding settings                        : cabac=1 / ref=9 / deblock=1:-3:-3 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=umh / subme=11 / psy=1 / fade_compensate=0.00 / psy_rd=1.15:0.05 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=24 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=2 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=0 / chroma_qp_offset=-3 / threads=22 / lookahead_threads=3 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=0 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / fgo=0 / bframes=8 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=23 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc=crf / mbtree=0 / crf=19.0000 / qcomp=0.70 / qpmin=10:10:10 / qpmax=51:51:51 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / pb_ratio=1.30 / aq=1:0.80 / aq-sensitivity=10.00 / aq-factor=1.00:1.00:1.00 / aq2=0 / aq3=0
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No
Color range                              : Limited
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : FLAC
Format/Info                              : Free Lossless Audio Codec
Codec ID                                 : A_FLAC
Duration                                 : 1 h 16 min
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 694 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 10.417 FPS (4608 SPF)
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Compression mode                         : Lossless
Stream size                              : 378 MiB (10%)
Writing library                          : Lavf58.45.100
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No

Though I did compare both the 1080p and 2160p versions here

and I can tell right off the bat there could be a chance I can get access to the original raw open matte scans somewhere. If anyone happens to have a Blu-ray of the open matte scan from Thunderbean’s official website, please PM me either an ISO rip or a remux using MakeMKV (recommended for BD remuxes).

UPDATE (04/10/2025): Okay, plan B, rather than just use Disney’s official 4K remaster, I’ll use the original 1080p Thunderbean scan, mostly because of more detail in the image and how it looks really cool to me. I do have proof about the AI upscale of the scan here just to let you know.

So yeah, apologies to anyone who wanted to see it in 4K.

For this new source, I’ll use the 1998 Japanese DVD master for the grading since, from what I can guess, it is the same transfer used on the LaserDiscs, which is why it’s non-anamorphic, especially since the scan is way too saturated and bright. The JP DVD will be used for patching the missing frames.

HAttackontheBun said:

I was wondering if the 35mm segments had to be slowed down to 23.976fps?

It already has.

Virtualcrane said:

Sambarker04 said:

by combining the CLV release with patches from the Deluxe CAV release.

I’m curious as to what needs to be patched?

Just a transition between sides 1 and 2. This is where the audio from side 2 on the Deluxe CAV release patches it.

That guy with no name said:

Apologies for my ignorance, but what exactly are the visual differences between the official 4K release and the theatrical cut?

Nothing much, just the Disney logo, the opening titles and the closing logo. The rest is pretty much untouched. In fact, the 4K master is based on the 2008 BD master, which is why the logo say “Walt Disney Pictures” and not just “Disney”.

UPDATE (29/09/25): I decided to grab myself the original Dolby Surround CLV release since I thought it would make sense for the original theatrical mix to be complete just like what I did with Toy Story, by combining the CLV release with patches from the Deluxe CAV release.

I’ll use reel 2 as an example. The rest are fine but still has a bit a red fade.

Juicy Pep said:

Sambarker04 said:

I should have talk about a dream I had a couple nights ago based on this preservation. In it, A person PM’d me scolding me for the gamma I used, though I did tell the person to calm down because it was regraded to be as close as the LD was possible because of the red fade and low brightness. Though I have already been scolded because “the fade in the film is actually what it looks like.”, though a private Discord server I am at would agree that the scolding is pretty much ridiculous (no offense). Yes, I know the faded green in reel 2 during the night scenes is distracting, but this is the best I can do to make it accurate to the official grading of pre-2000 masters.

What red fade and low brightness are you referring to? Also, do you have an example of the faded green in reel 2?

The red fade and low brightness I was talking about was from the leaked print, while the faded green was from my revival.