RU.08

The HDR scan of Cindy will be pretty definitive.

A donor encode is now available (well I can make it available to all donors in a couple of hours - PM me if you donated). This is not considered a final version at this stage and was the result of 2 separate print scans.

We’re not using VHS or LD or anything other than film as the reference for theatrical colour timing. The operator of a SD telecine was literally called a “colourist” because they would grade the transfer on-the-fly for home video or broadcast. There’s nothing at all theatrically accurate about that process, and they come from what are known as “TV prints” which are 16mm prints struck specifically for telecine.

I know all details of the TB scan of SW. It’s not at a quality that I personally would be happy with and I feel we can improve upon it even if I was to borrow the same print (a 1975 print if I’m not mistaken) and do a fresh transfer. I’m not bashing the scan at all, but it’s pretty basic especially if you care about early theatrical colours since by the 70’s they were recoloured. That’s a technical limitation of the film material itself.

I’ll be doing Lion King hopefully this year, hopefully we’ll be re-scanning SOTS sometime and BATB hopefully later in the year from a better print. I’ll also be digitising several classics this year from a collection, we’re just working out how best to get the films cleaned first and then they’ll all be transferred en-mass (or as we can afford to) and I should be able to share with donors. For example, we can scan 3 or 4 distinctly separate Snow White prints on 35 and 16mm. There’s something like 20 prints probably covering about 8 classics we can scan in that collection.

I’m still hamstring by funding though.

Sorry for anyone wondering what’s going on, there’s been a lot of activity at the moment so this hasn’t been a top priority, hopefully I can get back to everyone wanting to donate this week. I’m still chasing down a print I want to buy as well… 😉

Yay!

Please contribute people. This needs to get done, and then we need to do Home Alone 1 sometime as well!!

Hey great question.

I am independent, not part of TSWT.COM but I am in good contact with them. This project is being handled by someone else (not me and also not TSWT.COM) unless you hear otherwise they are anonymous.

I also use my own scanners, although I have invited others to use them from time to time not everyone chooses to.

I am not asking for any more funding for this project and I’m focusing my efforts on Disney in particular.

Thanks!

Still catching up by the way, working out a few things behind the scenes I’ll get back to people soon. 😃

It may be a few days before I get back to everyone. Thanks!

Hey VM94, best if you send me the PM please. 😃

I’ve so far raised $800 for this project. Incredible. Please keep it coming! The target is $1300.

The new HDR scan has been completed. I will have it in a few weeks. If anyone wants to donate towards the scanning cost please PM me.

Thanks!

Hi everyone,

I’m back and doing another scan very shortly. If anyone is looking to donate send me a private message and I’ll get back to you.

Thanks all!

Cthulhunicron said:

I know, but they said the o-negative has faded because it some of the film stock was notorious for quick fading, and some of it was unusable.

Film that couldn’t be scanned in the 90’s because it was too far faded can be scanned today.

Other sections of the negative were destroyed when they cleaned it.

No doubt, but there is as I said plenty of other material.

In 1997, they said they restored the negative by making duplications of sections from internegatives, interpositives, and the separation masters. So it seems to me that around 1997, what Lucasfilm is calling the “restored negative” (now conformed to the 97 SE), it would have to partially (or mostly) consist of new pieces of film printed in the 90s. All cgi shots were printed onto film, all digital composites were printed onto film, and the restored sections were new film created from IN, IP, or SM sources.

Right, but just because they printed those sections onto film doesn’t mean the interpos, dupe-neg, and separation film is gone.

If there were any sections of the restored negative that were actually from the original negative, it seems like they would have faded even worse by 2013 when they did the 4K scan.

Of course, but the scanning technology is much, much, much more advanced now. In the 90’s no one was scanning for digital 2K. They were doing it for TV, DVD, or digital effects on film.

Unless they were able to avoid additional fading through better storage methods. I suppose worst case scenario, if the sections of the negative that were printed prior to the 90s were unusable , they could have been scanned from the separation masters, since those don’t fade. I’ve heard even the IPs and INs had fading.

Separation masters are black-and-white film, so obviously can’t fade. That said, any dupe-neg would do fine to do a restoration from if the o-neg and the interpos are unavailable, and there would have been several dupe-negs.

yotsuya said:

They way he described it was that he was removing grain that was the result of additional generations. So yes, the grain is reduced/removed, but if he did it right, it would be the o-neg level of grain which was made worse with each generation.

That’s what he said but it’s not what he did.

However, as someone who watches quite a lot of 35mm projected I can tell you the grain you see in a scan, even a top-quality scan with no visible scanner noise, is significantly more than is apparent on projection. So it is quite reasonable to do some grain reduction to match projection.

Cthulhunicron said:

So, the O-negative had badly faded by 1994, so it seems like that means that what Lucasfilm is calling the O-negative is actually partially (or mostly) comprised of new film printed in the 90s. We know parts of the o-negative were unusable, and other parts were destroyed in the cleaning process. Damaged sections were re-created from the separation masters, interpositives, and internegatives. Any shots containing CGI (including digital recomposites) were rendered in 2K and then printed to film in 1997.

So when they did the 4K scan, most of what they were scanning would logically have to be new film printed in the 90s, correct? Also, is it possible that the 1997 version contains more frames from the actual o-negative than the 4K scan? It seems like if there were any o-negative frames in 1994 that had survived with minimal fading, then the fading would have been even worse by the time they started working on the 4K version.

There’s plenty of material because they kept everything. The best material is the camera negative, then there’s the dupe positives, the dupe negatives, the separation masters, and so on.

act on instinct said:

I think there’s some sour grapes on here because we don’t have access to Legacy, but this is more than a decade of work and it has been a labor of love, I’m not comfortable brushing aside all that dedication and effort as MV just doing whatever he wants, he could really be much less considerate if it was the case that he was exclusively altering to personal taste.

There’s no sour-grapes from me, I just want people to know/understand what Legacy is and what it isn’t. It’s up to people to decide for themselves whether they would call this project a “restoration” or something else. I personally would not call it a “restoration” and whether you want to call it a “fan made special edition” or “fan edit” or something else is up to you.

There are many issues with 4K77 as well of course that make it at best an incomplete restoration, and some of the decisions there were as well to remove some of the imperfections that are in the original film rather than only print/scan imperfections like dirt and scanner noise. As far as fan projects go of course it is very good and really significant improvements will require new film scans (not easy to acquire!)

alexp120 said:

In other words, it’s an elaborate fan-edit, only this one he isn’t sharing it–not in its entirety, anyway.

Mike’s special edition is probably more accurate, after all it is scene-for-scene accurate to the original 1977 film!

Okay so I watched a little bit of the vid, and I can tell you that Mike is being both loose with the truth, and not fully forthcoming about what he has changed. The '77 crawl as I mentioned he rotoscoped every letter, it’s in one of his Vimeo videos, yet he says it’s what he got just from layering prints! He removed the colour distortions from optical compositing and the “garbage mattes” from space composites because he feels that audiences didn’t see them in 1977. That’d be no different to claiming that Terminator audiences in 1984 didn’t see the wires attached to the HK models as a justification for removing them. He goes on about how the Mos Eisley drive-through shot is the worst looking shot in the film, but he doesn’t make clear that lots of movies have one low quality shot like that in them, or that actually all of the optical composite shots especially involving optical zooms, dissolves, and wipes typically come out at lower quality. Which is why higher budget films do those effects using a 65mm intermediate. Touching them up to bring them up to the quality of the rest of the film is exactly what the intention of the 1997 Special Edition was - it was a photochemical restoration more than anything else, with a few CGI shots inserted.

Finally Mike says that Legacy is the “original version” - I disagree. It’s his version, that he is happy with and that’s perfectly fine. But he has made alterations to it to make it the way he feels the movie should look, including making it way sharper than was ever intended in 1977.

44rh1n said:

I wish Disney would just release his restoration. It looks phenomenal!

Mike’s “restoration” (if you can call it that, it’s really more of a fan-made special edition) is not a professional restoration. From feedback I received from someone who has seen it, it’s inconsistent and the best looking shots are ones where the camera is static since Mike focused on resolution and dirt removal. The reason why it looks phenomenal in his previews is because he’s hand-picked his best looking shots. Since resolution was his focus he also oversharpened the entire movie, not unlike the 2004 Lowry Digital restoration. As per his own videos he rotoscoped certain elements to make them sharper (for example the opening crawl) resulting in them looking nothing like they do on film. The re-compositing is ironically the same thing that GL did in 1997 as the main changes for the Special Edition, and Mike has also fixed things in the original the he didn’t like, so it’s odd that MV calls his edition a “restoration” when he’s making similar changes to what GL did, just using different tools and techniques. From what I understand the quality of the movie is not consistent since the techniques that he developed only work well for certain shots and not others. Mike’s creative decisions aside, he doesn’t have the tools or expertise for correct colour timing, to fix warpage, or reduce flicker.

This isn’t to criticise Mike, I haven’t seen Legacy myself. It’s his project and up to him to decide what he likes. It’s just to let people know that Mike’s idea of a completed restoration is an edition that he is happy with, with a bunch of changes in it, which looks different to the original film due to his own creative decisions, and without many of the restorative corrections made which most people would expect out of a professional restoration. If you want the original Star Wars, the O-OT, Legacy isn’t it. If Disney released it, well I honestly don’t know who it would really please (besides Mike obviously) we’d still be asking them to restore and release the original 1977 movie without any changes.

I’m sorry I’m not accepting any donations right now. Once I can open up a new project please rest assured I’ll get back to everyone who is interested in donating towards a Disney scan.

Monsieur Hulot said:

Out of curiosity did you ever receive the rescans?

Yes, the film is scanned.

Class316 said:

Every Fantasia project seems to die hope this one come to fruition.

Patience is the key.

Thanks SilverWook.

We have scans from two prints, and I’m still waiting on a rescan of one reel. Until that happens that reel won’t match the quality of the rest of the scan.

As others have mentioned there are all kinds of reasons for scanning delays. Covid has probably caused all kinds of logistical issues as well with many of them - whether that’s in sourcing cleaning fluid, getting scanning equipment maintained or repaired (that’s very specialised and usually the “mechanics”/maintenance technician need to travel internationally or from another part of the same country to do that), getting spare parts manufactured, and so on. It’s no different to any other workshop equipment - like say a CNC machine in a joinery, if it breaks down and needs maintenance you can sometimes have to wait weeks or months to get a technician out depending on where you’re located, how many technicians there are, how busy they are, etc. Getting affordable time with a good scanner doesn’t just happen by magic.

brad86 said:

Another ‘took the money and ran’ is more than likely. Love to be proven wrong, but it’s all too easy, which is a real shame.

I haven’t taken any of your money brad86, so you’re in no position to feel ripped off. It’ll be done when it’s done.

I’m sorry to hear about the Demolition Man print, unfortunately shit happens. You’re always best to check with people involved in scanning privately if they know who a seller is and have any experience - some collectors are really fantastic and others are not so much.

Broom Kid said:

Star Wars isn’t a genre. I haven’t missed your point, I think maybe you’re not grasping the terms you’re trying to use to arrive at the definitions that aren’t quite right. And your description of genre honestly doesn’t have much to do with filmmaking techniques anyway, because now you’re talking about character types and characterization tropes.

It’s made in a combination of genres, that’s the point. Lucas calls it “space opera”. Fantasy-adventure-drama is probably a lot more accurate than his description. In adventure films the protagonist goes on a quest, in action films they face a clear enemy usually in the name of justice or survival. There’s overlap of course, but the point of the quest in the adventure film (often the MacGuffin is a shared gaol between the protagonist and the antagonist rather than them having opposite goals) is to both propel the story and lead the protagonist (or antagonist) on a character arc, where they might learn new things, go on a journey of self-discover, be exposed to a foreign environment, that kind of thing.

One of the problems with Phantom Menace is that it’s not clear who is the main character. Do you know who it is?

Broom Kid said:

Star Wars was never a “niche” genre. It’s not a genre unto itself (despite various people’s attempts to make it as such) either. And if you see a similarity between superheroes and fantasy-based mythologies, it’s because they both draw from the same ideas. Jedi are, more or less, superheroes.

With respect you’ve missed my point. Star Wars is a “niche genre” because of how Lucas combined other genres to make the movie. There’s a difference between superhero/villains who cannot be defeated except by other superhero/villains, and the much more relatable mortal superhero/villains who’s powers don’t make them impossible to defeat. Watto easily defeats Qui-Gon’s attempt at force-influencing him. Admiral Motti’s line to Vader: “Don’t try to frighten us with your sorcerer’s ways”. Contrast that with Superman II - General Zod can only be defeated by Superman because he is too powerful. That trope is used so often in superhero movies, and pre-dates the modern superhero genre by quite a bit as you see with that example, it’s used because it’s very convenient way to explain away why the military, police, or other authorities can’t oppose the super-villain.

You’re arguing it has to look and feel like it did in 1977 and that’s death.

That’s not my argument - my argument is that the sequels have been made in a fundamentally different style and genre. One that lots of people enjoy, but which is not for me.