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RU.08

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5-May-2011
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21-Jun-2025
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Post
#775368
Topic
TPM 1080p Theatrical Preservation (a WIP)
Time

Behodar said:

Apparently only the Blu-ray was changed. As you were :)

I listed the differences from theatrical to dvd here. Note that's the first post on page 2 so I'm surprised you missed it!

nightstalkerpoet said:


Any ETA on this? Really excited to see your final results. :)

It depends what I can do with the shot you see above. Superimposing the images would require a moving mask which is a time consuming process to construct.

clutchins said:


Also, Valeyard, "Theatrical Preservation" is incorrect terminology since you're not preserving anything in particular. What you're doing is a reconstruction of the Theatrical version.

All the SW Trilogy scans done by poita, team -1 and mikev are using multiple sources. There are three versions of the theatrical on the spleen as it is - LD, TB and Z. Adywan's "reconstruction" didn't correct the scene above, but if you like it's the 4th on there. It's easily possible to reconstruct the theatrical cut using just the Jap LD and the HDTV - taking scenes from each and arrange them into the correct order. My final cut will use the DVD and the TB as well - the TB proved very valuable in correcting the chroma in particular. So far I haven't changed anything, thus it's still a preservation. It's the the ultimate preservation by any means - someone with access to a theatrical print can scan it and make one that uses the print. Someone else may simply do what I'm doing except use the Bluray as well (I'm not using it because I don't want to, and I don't think it is representative of how the film looked in theatres). Preservations don't always fit into a particular concise definition, and the boundaries to reconstructions can be blurred.

Post
#775367
Topic
TPM 1080p Theatrical Preservation (a WIP)
Time

Okay so the "bridge" scene. I've been dreading this. I'm not entirely sure yet how I'll handle it. First here's the cleaned LD:

http://i.imgur.com/pGda7Jd.jpg

And this is the DVD - cleaned and resized.

http://i.imgur.com/9ydvomM.jpg

Even the DVD as you can clearly see has a huge difference in quality - let alone the HDTV! I have no doubt the entire frame was re-rendered from the CGI model with the changes on the left of the frame.

Laserdisc:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/130781

And HDTV:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/130784

And I'll enhance them so the difference is clear (fullr resolution):

http://i.imgur.com/mMI1sMZ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/l0Vp4TO.jpg

In the worst case scenario I'll have to use the whole LD frame. However, I'm hoping that softening and darkening the HDTV image will allow me to superimpose the two together.

Post
#775166
Topic
Star Wars GOUT in HD using super resolution algorithm (* unfinished project *)
Time

camroncamera said:


The GOUT image... It's like the original telecine process was transfered at 16:9 anamorphic and was converted to 4:3 letterbox at the mastering stage (and caused all of that awful aliasing) by throwing out every other scanline like yesterday's bagels. 

I don't know how, but I believe you found all those scanlines that they tossed away, then rolled them in sesame seeds, added the most amazing cream cheese, homestyle berry preserves, smoky lox and toasted it all so that is 9 times better than when the bagels were fresh to begin with. That's how good this work is.

Truth is, I don't even know if 16:9 anamorphic standard definition video was even used during the (pre-DVD) Laserdisc era for feature film transfers, so I don't believe that those "missing scanlines" of the GOUT were ever even in any video signal from the telecine machine on down the video chain. I know HD video had been in development for several years at the time of those film transfers, but pretty much as R&D only.

Still, in the back of my mind, I wonder if there might be a 16:9 anamorphic D-1 tape straight from the Star Wars telecine session floating around. If a very early scan converter was used to convert this (hypothetical)16:9 anamorphic film transfer to 4:3 letterbox format, and that subsequent 4:3 tape was used as the Laserdisc master, that could explain the heavy aliasing of the GOUT. If Lucasfilm returned to these scan-converted transfer tapes to produce the 2006 bonus DVDs (erroneously believing them to be the best existing transfers of the Original Trilogy), they had missed the opportunity to use these hypothetical anamorphic original transfer tapes instead.

No, the aliasing is just a side-effect of the telecine process. One field is scanned, then the other, the data is written straight to videotape and the process is repeated until the film is done. If the odd and even lines are slightly misaligned then you get aliasing.

Post
#774950
Topic
TPM 1080p Theatrical Preservation (a WIP)
Time

While some aspects of the Bluray's picture are better, overall it is over-sharpened and the cropping is wrong. Note that because it was converted to 3D, all the previously out-of-focus elements in the picture are often brought into focus where-ever possible so that the viewer can explore the depth of the movie. Here are some examples (bluray top, hdtv middle and z-vcd bot):

http://i.imgur.com/yFDUZL0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uQGJbnb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cH8Jxwv.jpg
In this shot the bluray cropping is closer to the theatrical version.

http://i.imgur.com/vVMIQT0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/g9MXevK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TCSQD7n.jpg
But in this shot (and most others) the hdtv cropping is closer to the theatrical version.

Post
#774949
Topic
team negative1 - star wars 1977 - 35mm theatrical version (Released)
Time

team_negative1 said:

As one more preview, here's an update on the newer Intro, and part of the flyover:

===============================

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/k4umJBQE9NOTk4buu03

Team Negative1

Yeah just as I had suspected, the text has a matte-line (although interesting only on the top and bottom of the text and not the sides). The matte-line gets thinner as the text gets thinner (seems to be in direct relation to the size of the text as it recedes). This is unique to the first movie, as Empire Strikes back has the stars marking contact with and clearly overlapping the text on all sides without any matte lines. Thanks for finally providing a theatrically-correct HD version!

Post
#774797
Topic
TPM 1080p Theatrical Preservation (a WIP)
Time

Okay, so I've completed the subtitle removal today. There are 28 subtitles in the film, and removing them was time consuming. I used individual masks for each subtitle rather than creating one big mask that would work for all 28. Now I'm just double-checking I haven't made any errors in the frame codes. You can see the sample image I posted back here. Here's the code for it, as you can see it's one big sequential manual-labour effort.

To remove the subtitles I had to de-grain those frames. So, once I've finished checking them I'll use grainfactory to restore the correct grain level for the frames where subtitles were removed. Then all that's left to do is to put in the theatrically-correct subtitles using the Z-VCD theatrical bootleg as a guide for the timing and placement. They'll be burned-in as requested.

Post
#774678
Topic
Star Wars Ring Theory
Time

I think Lucas was influenced by the Godfather films. The original two films have a pretty rigid ring structure that sees the story come full circle. Both films have a clear midpoint - and the first would have had an intermission after Michael carries out the dinner shooting. The themes are patterned and run in parallel: Vito and Michael both begin their entry into the Mafia with the shooting of two people that they perceive as a threat to their families, and also as an act of revenge.

They both have a false-empire and a false-benevolence (and note there are clear differences to both of these under each don). Both are ultimately responsible for the deaths of their own family members - Vito by allowing Sonny to be Don which in turn sees him fall victim to a trap set up through Connie's husband Carlo. Carlo could have been stopped any time by the Don, but Vito didn't intervene in the mistreatment levelled against his daughter, which in turn compelled Sonny to intervene. Later on in the second film, Fredo is involved in setting up Michael for entrapment. Ultimately Michael has his assassin kill him.

The traps in the films also come full circle. At the start of the second film, Senator Pat Geary attempts to extort Michel over a gaming license. Later on the film Michael's assassin kills a prostitute he is sleeping with while in a hotel/brothel run by the family. Geary falls for the deception, and is later shown showing support for the family for the remainder of the film.

Similarly, Hyman Roth devises an elaborate trap for Michael. He orders the Rosato brothers (who work for him) to carry out a fake assassination attempt against Pentangeli (who works for Michael). The Rosato's tell him they are acting on behalf of Michael - and their bluff works in turning Pentangeli against Michael. Just as Geary fell for Michael's deception, Pentangeli falls for Roth's deception. Both assassination were a lie - one a false assassination, the other a misattributed one.

Vengeance, Deception, and Betrayal all come full circle also. The whole story arch of the Godfather Pt 2 revolves around Roth attempting to take revenge against Michael for killing Greene. The story of the first film sees Michael carry out revenge against Sollozzo for the attempt on Vito's life, and against Barzini for the death of Sonny.

Deceit and Betrayal are prominent themes - following Sonny's assassination Vito calls a meeting of the families, claiming he wants to end the bitter war between them. In reality he wants to learn who is really responsible for Sonny's death, and he wants to arrange for Michel to come home. He learns that it is Barzini, not the Tattaglia family,that ordered the hit. He then stands up and assures the other dons by 'swearing on the souls of his grandchildren' that he will not break the peace, all the while knowing that he is lying. That he really intends to bide his time to take revenge against Barzini. The foreshadowing of this is when Michael is made Don his first act is to remove Hagen as consigliere because he needs a wartime consigliere. Vito then explicitly tells Hagen this was at his request.

Vito knows that the Barzinis will attempt to preempt a move against them by taking out a hit on Michael, thus preventing the family from taking their revenge. Vito foretells that a traitor will come to Michael with plans for a meeting with Barzini. Prepared for this, when Tessio comes to Michael he uses his own trap against him.

In Part II the story comes full circle. Although Michael fends off Roth's elaborate plan for his demise, he himself destroys the family that he is supposedly protecting from Roth. In the same way that Vito had defended the family against Barzini and other threats, but had ultimately caused the harm to his family though his own actions.

It breaks down to the next level also, Vito kills Don Fanucci to free Italian-Americans from his oppression, but then becomes the source of the oppression himself. This is then exemplified when Michael becomes don, for instance when he wants to take back what the family had given to Greene.

I have a feeling that Lucas envied this storytelling and tried to replicate it with the Star Wars films. Ultimately though he failed where Coppola succeeded.

Post
#773269
Topic
Star Wars Ring Theory
Time

DrDre said:

How about the fact that at the start of TPM it is established that Jedi have super speed, when they escape from the Destroyer droids, but Obi-Wan seems to have lost this ability when his master's life is on the line. This is a clear example of sloppy writing.

Supposedly the force-speed is force/energy intensive and requires substantial recovery time. Although how anyone's supposed to work that out for themselves just from the movie is beyond me.

Post
#773100
Topic
Star Wars Ring Theory
Time

Well the ring theory does explain the film structures, it doesn't explain though the poor film making. In Ep I the main character, Anakin, isn't even introduced until 30 minutes into the film. Padme's identity as the Queen is kept a secret from the audience - so she isn't even introduced until 30 minutes in either. Qui-Gon, a trained Jedi Knight, rushes in to fight Maul without waiting for Obi-Wan. Portman was quite flat at times, for instance in Padme's plea to the Gungans - there's no emotion or sincerity in her voice. In her speech in fact her voice changes tone for no apparent reason whatsoever - something that would have been easily fixed back at the studio during re-dubbing.

Post
#773053
Topic
team negative1 - star wars 1977 - 35mm theatrical version (Released)
Time

Thanks for posting that video. Lowy mentioned they used camera negatives where available for Bond also - like Robocop 4k. Dr. No looked great, but some of the other Bonds didn't look as good (riddled with DVNR), which I think is a shame. If it's true the budget was $300,000 to restore the whole lot perhaps Lowy had to rush some of the films without putting in the hours of labour they deserved.

Post
#772895
Topic
Star Wars 1977 releases on 35mm
Time

I put this reply into the correct on-topic thread. :)

poita said:

There is a definite drop in detail from 4K to 2K, quite a lot actually. Even going from full aperture 4K to DCI 4K native loses some detail.

There is still extra detail being resolved at 10K vs 4K, but not really enough to justify a full 10K scan, it is mainly just defining the grain better.

As it is scanning is being done at double the 'standard' 4K, over 14 Megapixels per frame, and with a huge dynamic range, so we really should be getting all the detail that is likely to be extracted from the prints.
This also allows things like stabilisation to be applied without the sub-pixel smearing that you would get if scanning at the lower 4096x2160 resolution, (or the much much lower 2K resolution)

It certainly isn't a competition, a lot of sharing of materials, knowledge and techniques goes on behind the scenes that people don't see here. Mike V, Harmy, Adywan, myself etc. all help each other out and none of us work completely in isolation. Work done by anyone benefits pretty much everyone.

Yes, from what you've said before the detail resolves to higher than 2k but lower than 4k. Interesting you mention "not really enough to justify a full 10K scan" that implies you are selectively scanning some scenes at 10k, would that be correct?

And great news on the time-frame, like MikeV keeps saying I hope it motivates Disney/Fox to do an official release.

Post
#772893
Topic
team negative1 - star wars 1977 - 35mm theatrical version (Released)
Time

Spielrock said:


Hi all,

Long time lurker. Thought I'd sign up and post as I think it is great what Team Negative1 are doing here.

I've noticed a lot of talk about comparing this to the Blu-ray, if you understand the technical process of how these films are transferred from their dirty 35mm camera negatives to what you see when you pop in that disc... you'd see that comparing this to a blu-ray for quality/detail is just silly.

A company by the name of Lowry Digital who were responsible for the blu-ray transfers for the James Bond films, run the films through a digital film scanner that runs at a cost of about $300,000. They have over 700 terabytes of local storage and huge server farms. Not to mention the team that tackles all the footage once it has finished. I don't have much detail on how Star Wars was restored but I doubt it was anything less than this. 

Looking forward to it.

Team -1 as I understand it built their own film scanner, and have kept the exact technical details of it private. Poita on the other hand bought a used $450,000 Imagica film scanner (in fact there's another one on eBay right now that is being sold with a cleaner as well here). MikeV has access to an industry-standard film scanner as well due to having friends in the industry. And reportedly there are other people who will scan a film-based source for you without asking questions about copyright.

Your information that Lowry Digital's film-scanning cost is $300,000 seems inaccurate. It may have cost that much in total for MGM (or Eon) to have all 22 films at the time scanned (Skyfall was shot entirely in digital FYI) and prepared for release (cleaned). That would equal about $13,600 per movie or so. If I'm not mistaken, Lowy used an Imagica scanner for Bond - which is the same scanner that Poita bought (or a different model of the same brand film scanner).

For starwars the "official" restoration can be traced back to 1995. At this time several elements were cleaned and scanned by ILM at 2k. Not the entire films, but certainly the parts with the most generational loss such as the optical wipes. In order to do this those parts were scanned from an earlier source to the o-neg (eg the camera negative), and put into a computer so effects could be added. This was done for instance with all optical wipes, and any scene that ended up having a special edition effect in 1997. Ultimately the o-neg was then reassembled with the restored/special edition segments inserted.

Fast-forward to 2004, this time ILM reportedly used a Cintel C-Reality telecine. The main difference between a telecine (T/C) and a scanner is that a T/C produces a format intended for television, straight onto a digital tape that can be duplicated and broadcast. It seems to be all but a dead-format now. But in 2004 it was fast and cheap. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but in 2004 they didn't bother with the camera negatives again, they simply used their 1997SE o-negs and "scanned" (or more accurately they T/C'd it) it at either 1080p or 2k. The T/C introduced all that horrible noise and would have been grainy as hell before Lucas had Lowy degrain the movies for him. Had Lowy done the scanning in one of their film scanners then it would have been better quality. I don't believe that Lucas wanted to use Lowy though, I think what happened is that ILM did the "scanning", cleaning, and colour-correction, and came up short and then they sent what they'd already done to Lowy to see if they could fix the problem and make a release-quality product from their jumbled mess. They gave them a tight deadline too so they could get the DVD released in 2004.

Fast-forward to today. Poita and MikeV have both scanned prints of the film in 4k using industry-quality film scanners. On the other hand, ILM "scanned" it using a 1080p/2k T/C from the o-neg in 2004. In 2011 or perhaps 2010 Lucas had what we think is the 1997 SE o-negs scanned at 4k for a future release (probably to be the basis for his 3D versions and all future home releases). Despite these plans, the 2004 version was released on Bluray in 2011 (with some minor changes).

So far the film has never been scanned in a film scanner and subsequently released onto a home-video format - EVER. So that is what I would say is the major difference between James Bond and Star Wars!

Post
#772862
Topic
Star Wars on Super8 (Released)
Time

poita said:

What is fun though is to overlay the X0/Laserdisc shot over the film scan, both of them at full resolution.

i.e. pixels in each being the same size.

That's the size of the scan though not the size of the detail. To determine the detail in your full 4k picture you resize it down and then back up and look for detail loss, right? Eg resize to 2k and back to 4k and see if any detail was lost. You could do the same thing to the X0 - it may have less detail than 480p(/480i since it's a T/C).

But great work on the scans (the 35mm anyway, the 8mm had issues as you mentioned) - you'd clearly give MikeV a run for his money with that shot! *(not that it's a competition of course). Out of question though how many prints have you scanned for SW?