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RU.08

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5-May-2011
Last activity
18-Nov-2019
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Post History

Post
#1303867
Topic
The Terminator - Color Regrade
Time

Dek Rollins said:

By the way, when you mentioned the credits being original, what did they actually look like? was there no Donna Smith credit at all, or did it scroll up at the beginning of the credits during the fade-out like in the German DVD print?

Yes the credits started scrolling up over the picture like that before it faded out completely. I meant there was no static credit, it was probably the first credit scrolling up as seen in your screenshot.

The only thing that looks noticeably off in the BD is the text at the start of the film (the future war text and the credits) - that’s all much softer on 35mm.

Post
#1303773
Topic
The Terminator - Color Regrade
Time

Dek Rollins said:

The colors are definitely washed out, but the general color biases are what I’m referring to. I think that skin tones are too frequently pinkish, and some scenes seem very dark, but most of the scenes I’ve compared look somewhat similar to the Blu-ray, and match your description of the print you saw pretty well.

The skin tones, like most 35mm on the era, are frequently yellowish in the daylight scenes.

I posted in the fanres thread that I think it seems to be the most accurate (I meant generally, though I didn’t really specify what I thought was accurate about it in that post), and that it matches the dozens of 35mm frames posted online rather closely, so I would think that the biases introduced by the telecine were subtle. With the washed out contrast it wouldn’t be projection accurate of course, but a subtle regrade of the BD on a shot by shot basis to try and match the color consistency of the DVD seems like a worthy effort to me.

The bias introduced by the telecine is anything but “subtle”. I’m very sorry to disagree.

I think I’m going to try doing that with my updated regrade, and maybe those of us who are not quite satisfied with the BD will be happy with an alternative that isn’t far off from it. I’m curious, for everyone who has my regrade and enjoys it over the BD, would you guys be interested in something that stays closer to the BD and just makes subtle shot to shot changes?

I think this film is well worth doing a scan from a print, you’ll see the colours on the BD are faithful but there’s some subtle differences here and there. I mean no disrespect, but re-grading is a fool’s errand unless you’ve seen it projected yourself.

Post
#1303218
Topic
The Terminator - Color Regrade
Time

Anyway, would you say the projection was accurate to the old German DVD, the one that was transferred from a print?

No. The colours in that version are washed out, and it was not transferred digitally it was very obviously done by telecine which never produces a projection-accurate result regardless of whether you’re using a release print, a TV print, or whatever. I do not think it was even transferred for DVD - it looks like they used a broadcast tape literally transferred in the 1980’s for that release. It’s a full-screen transfer, outside of the US no one did full-screen transfers for DVD, even in 1997. And when they did the first digital restoration, and broadcast it, it was in widescreen.

Post
#1303131
Topic
The Terminator - Color Regrade
Time

Just to clarify, the print you saw was an original one and not a 2001 re-issue?

Yes completely original, I can confirm it did not have the Donna Smith or Harlan Ellison credits.

The big issue I have with what you say about the Blu-ray’s accuracy is that there is evidence that the Blu-ray’s color biases in some scenes are not always consistent with the original prints.

None of those scans look anything like projection. Just taking the second one as an example - Reece was nowhere near that dark, he was clearly visible in that scene.

Anyway, I’m glad you weighed in here. By the way, what did you think of my old regrade?

It was better, but I can’t say it’s an improvement on the bluray. The bluray looked spot-on. I don’t think it is completely spot-on mind you, but it’s very faithful.

That was the latest update I had made when kaosjm posted about the print he saw and said that I was spot on for most of the film. He did note that the beginning and future war stuff was sometimes very cyan and teal, which I acknowledged, but I never ended up implementing any changes like that because until now I was set on doing a single global adjustment for the majority of the movie. That’s why the shots in those comparisons have inaccuracies, too.

There is less colour in those scenes which is why they look more blue, besides that they have the same teal/cyan/green hue as the rest of the film’s night scenes.

I find it hard to believe that the print you saw had a yellow/green push in the highlights like the Blu-ray does, but I haven’t had the opportunity to see a print in person, so I can’t say anything from experience.

I’m sorry to hear that I hope you do get to see it sometime! Last year I saw T2 on 35mm. 😃 The really funny thing was when I was leaving the cinema, literally in the company of just two strangers, they were talking amongst themselves about how it was interesting they saw a print rather than a digital projection.

Post
#1303109
Topic
The Terminator - Color Regrade
Time

I’ve just seen this on 35mm, and I can tell you the 2013 MGM Bluray looks faithful and much, much closer than your regrade. Visuals of course are only one thing, the original mono mix is obviously nothing like the bluray - but the sound on the print is absolutely thumping.

I’ll post some examples (regrade on top, 2013 MGM Bluray on bottom):

This is how it actually looks on a 35mm print:

The re-grade is too dark and has turned the background navy blue where the backgrounds are often cyan or green.

One of the scenes in the film where the background is very obviously green and not blue or cyan is when Sarah is driving through the tunnel, I just checked the bluray and sure enough it looks correct:

That’s exactly how it looks on release prints, and the road looks green as well as it does on the bluray.

Griffith Observatory:

The colour cast has been removed in the regrade, but this looks moreorless accurate:

Furthermore I don’t remember seeing a single night scene where the background looked so neutrally grey.

Rear-screen projection future war:

These scenes looked really amazing, and felt very intense.

The bluray looks fairly accurate. While it’s impossible for me to say for certain for every scene, what I can say is that most scenes like this had at least some cyan in them and did not look as blue as the regrade. It was also quite easy to tell this is a back-screen effect on film from the way the background is out of focus - nevertheless it still looked great.

Terminator enters police station:

Once again the regrade looks, to my eye, off. The only thing wrong about the bluray is that I’m pretty sure in that shot you could not see through the sunglass lens on the print (but you can in other shots). This is because prints don’t have much detail in the blacks.

Terminator in front of sugar glass:

The regrade is wrong. The bluray looks faithful. There are no scenes in the present (1984) that look as blue as the regrade, the only one that may have looked more blue are future war scenes, although I hasten to add many if not most of them had cyans or greens in them. The colour timing on the print was pretty consistent.

This is all largely in-line with what kaosjm reported in 2017. The future war scenes, some of them were “more blue” than the present, but virtually all of them had teal, cyan, or green in them. The scenes that were the most blue were the rear-projection scenes, but even they were not as blue as the regrade.

Visually speaking the bluray is remarkably faithful. Sound is another matter since it doesn’t have the original mono mix.

Post
#1302492
Topic
Terminator 2 Judgment Day (1991). Regraded + Partially DeRemastered + Regrained
Time

No, Titanic was shot on Super 35 as well, but is considerably more detailed. Also you can’t pull out detail that isn’t in the negative, and as the remastered bluray is more detailed it shows there is full 2K resolution (or close to it) in the negative even when cropped. That’s what you expect with Super 35 really as you’re not using the full are of the film for picture, films shot that way tend to use the highest resolution (finest grain) negative film stocks available. The film was shown on 70mm as well, so they must have been able to pull out more detail for the 70mm prints. So the low resolution isn’t due to the negative itself, it’s due to the choice of film stocks used for the prints as well as the intermediary process.

If you ever get to see the film on 35mm, and there will be places showing prints, you’ll see that compared with other 35mm films it’s on the lower side of detail and resolution. You’d think because it was a highly anticipated blockbuster that it’d be on the higher side, but that just isn’t so.

Anyway no digital distributor would ever release it looking the way it did on 35mm, it doesn’t look “bad” by 35mm standards, but it’s certainly soft and low resolution, probably about 1K detail. True Lies is probably similar to the detail in T2, but I haven’t seen that projected in a cinema.

Post
#1302393
Topic
Terminator 2 Judgment Day (1991). Regraded + Partially DeRemastered + Regrained
Time

T2 on 35mm looks nowhere near as detailed as the bluray. I’d say the resolution in the print is a lot closer to 1K than it is to 2K.

Also all the CGI special effects scenes are more contrasty to the rest of the film. The effects hold up and look good, but the difference is obvious on film as they don’t have the density of celluloid. Your T1 example is similar to the difference when there’s a CGI shot - the contrast suddenly goes way up, very noticeable.

Post
#1297671
Topic
The Little Mermaid (1989) - 35 mm (fully funded)
Time

MonkeyLizard10 said:

In 1997 Disney scanned in the original 1989 final production negative used as the basis to print the theatrical release from and then touched it all up in computers and then put it back to film. So I’m not sure we can really take a 1998 print as giving us the true original 1989 look

Where did you get that information? Also are you sure that the film-out negative was used for foreign prints and not just domestic?

The colors on this seem reallllly muted. And they have sort of a drab yellow-green tint. Do you know what color space the scanner company provided your scan in? Are you really sure it was sRGB/REC709? Just comparing your scanned samples to the quick flashlight trick picks you first showed, color seems to have gone way muted. And if you swap the profile on those images to say AdobeRGB, they start to begin to look a bit more reasonable (and perhaps they were scanned in an even larger colorspace than AdobeRGB). I sort of have a feeling that you were delivered files that were not sRGB/REC709 but then treated them as if they were?

The colours on all Disney films before Aladdin look very different to their home-video counterparts. Unless you’ve seen it recently on film yourself, then you can’t attest to how the film looks. Dr. Cooper should be able to arrange to get the print projected sometime so that will give a better idea about actual theatrical colour timing.

I think we forget that film could provide pretty rich colors, even in 1989. We are just so used to how faded out old prints become over time (other than for a few ones printed out on certain long lasting stock, which most were not).

Yes film has more density than is possible with 8-bit Rec 709. The scan done was a “single flash” SDR (standard dynamic range) scan so doesn’t provide all density that’s in the film.

Anyway, what I have, has absolutely BRILLIANT colors and eye popping saturation.

Again you need to see it projected - but sure it wouldn’t surprise me if the colour is beyond Rec709.

FWIW if we can get our hands on an English print we can arrange to scan it in HDR. 😉 There’ll be a substantial cost involved of course, but the film is definitely worthy of it.

Post
#1293859
Topic
Walt Disney Classics 4K
Time

phoenixobia said:

I’m sorry my bad. The original negative was 1.66 but now the top and bottom has been cropped to fit 16:9.
I have the BATB Laserdisc and it is letterboxed which shows the complete picture.

If you take a look at the link below or google BATB laserdisc bluray comparison, You’ll see what I mean.

http://stayornay.com/toons/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/BatB-WIP-Compare-11.jpg

Some prints might be open matte, but it’s definitely a flat 1.85:1 film.

Post
#1291546
Topic
Spider-Man World-Trade-Center 35mm Teaser Trailer
Time

Some of the Youtube comments are crazy, like “download it asap before SONY/Disney decide to remove it…” - no guys, there’s no need to worry, YoshiKiller2S already (generously) shared the raw file so it’s perfectly safe! 😃

Honestly it’s crazy the response you got, considering the relatively modest response to this being shared in HD for the first time:

https://vimeo.com/212361397

Lots of people seem to think that because this trailer was pulled in cinemas it’s less likely to be preserved in high quality - nope! Even the Orphanage, a 2007 film, its trailers are not in HD (I preserved the Teaser).

Post
#1281114
Topic
Alien 1979 35mm scan opportunity
Time

We’re not “trying” to replace official releases, comparing to official releases is a fool’s errand.

T2 doesn’t look that great on 35mm to be honest, it’s one of the softest lowest resolution films I’ve seen no doubt due to the Super35 blow-up process. But there’s no point in saying you want to see it scanned, someone has to come up with the money to purchase or hire a print and to pay for the scanning, without that you’re just complaining about the home release which while it’s not the greatest, it isn’t the worst either. And any potential T2 scan has nothing to do with my projects anyway, I’d much rather scan T1 than T2 and there are many other films I’d rather scan than that (my primary focus remains on Disney animation films of course).

It’s a pity that Tiddy couldn’t keep it civil. There’s no reason to be at each other’s throats over this kind of thing…

Post
#1280988
Topic
Alien 1979 35mm scan opportunity
Time

Well for the theatrical experience anyway. The “detail” in prints is 1-2K not anywhere near 4K (although they have much richer dynamic range than digital) and most prints have little shadow/highlight detail, the exception being dye-transfer prints that retain the same detail level into the shadows/highlights. Blurays and 2K/4K restorations are often sharpened way beyond the sharpness of prints as well. This is not a limitation of prints - films like Alien were shot in anamorphic and transferred using contact-printing so there is little to no loss of sharpness between the negative and the final prints.

Post
#1280970
Topic
Alien 1979 35mm scan opportunity
Time

TiddySprinklesPimpBillion said:

You better not use noise reduction. Film grain is great. Do not colormatch to any release as you’ve mentioned except other film prints. Pointless to try to match with the extremely outdated Laserdiscs and taking it a step up with what you’re doing.

I think you’re misunderstanding quite a lot about film scanning. I’ve seen both scans we have so far, from two different prints scanned on two different machines, and both of them have quite a bit of scanner noise in them. I’m getting one reel re-scanned professionally on equipment that is virtually noise-free, once we have that we’ll know exactly how much to reduce the noise by.

As for colour grading, it’s a lot more involved then that. We have a few minutes from a (virtually) un-faded print, but both of the prints we scanned were red. The un-faded scan, even though it isn’t much, is our reference for the rest of the film and we have a pretty good idea about how the film should look.