darth_ender said:
imperialscum said:
darth_ender said:
But to say religion is just nonsense is, in fact, nonsense. Religion is built into humanity. Even most who do not believe in deity in any form still engage in religious-like behaviors and rituals, whether they realize it or not. It too is a part of humanity.
The only useful thing about religion are some (emphasis on some) of the moral standards it teaches. Pretty much everything else is a nonsense, such as time-wasting rituals and stupid stories like creationism and life after death.
And in the end you don't really need a religion to abide the high moral standards.
I am afraid that this is all a bunch of ignorance. I don't disagree that people who are without religion can still hold high moral standards. But bear in mind where those standards came from. Right now you are from the UK if I recall correctly. Your nation has been tremendously influenced by Judeo-Christian values. Let's say that the world was taken over by the Islamic State. Over time, societal norms conform to those accepted by what we now see as an evil group. In 100 years, a guy very much like you wishes to live a life with morals much like yours. Do you know what would happen? This man would be branded a heretic and executed for apostasy. You know why, because he would be living a life if immorality according to a different society, though his standards may be exactly like yours today. Lest you use this as an argument against religion due to the extremism of such Muslims, I do wish to point out that even atheistic societies like North Korea and the Soviet Union have adopted truly evil norms.
In other words, morals are not universal. There is no supreme law that says that murder is wrong, that human equality is right. Not unless there is a Supreme Being. Otherwise, those values are actually just accepted by the majority of society. Being moral in one society may be immoral in another.
Note that this is not proof of any Supreme Being, but rather that in a sense, if there is no God, no one can be truly called moral.
Is this necessarily the case? Given that some elements of morality seemingly differs from one society to another, is it not yet understood that such normative mores may yet be recognized by the society itself? If refraining from watching television might be considered a high standard in one household while watching the late night show as a group might be upheld as a time for bonding in another, is it true to claim that neither family may have any standards without an outside source capable of affirming the one and rejecting the other? Or is it not more likely the case that the moral exists solely within the familial sphere, where it might be applied, ruled upon, extolled, and promoted by those in authority therein, but that its absolute moral certitude must necessarily wane the further it might depart from any immediate parental reach?
Further, if no moral certitude might yet exist even upon this earth, how might this be construed as evidence that one all-powerful being whose interest must clearly be human-centered might yet be in any position of control? Would one not instead expect a degree of moral uniformity to extend from a singular creator of great power and virtuous intent?
Finally, is morality truly as complicated that it might require an all powerful singularity as its source of origin? For would not such self-evident truths as "if you take mine I'll take yours so don't take mine" be as clear to men of fair intellect as to an omnipotent being of infinite intelligence?