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Post Praetorian

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15-Dec-2013
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2-Mar-2019
Posts
1,101

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Post
#760566
Topic
Warbler's Christian thread.
Time

imperialscum said:

No. My complaint was on a technical level. Internet forum thread's primary function is for people to interact with each other by

...cordial means...be that by quietly reading posted content, validating the OP, questioning the OP, contributing to the content begun by the OP, or... 

debating some specific topic.

Clearly the intent of the OP is to be considered paramount to how such threads are to be interpreted...Internet 101...

He specifically said in his first post that people should not do that.

At which point a little bell rang inside your head and, with a large grin, you began to do the opposite...for the sole purpose of proving:

1) that civility cannot exist if it is requested in advance...

2) that you had difficulty sitting still in class and following instructions because at every word GO you heard STOP and at every STOP you heard GO...you might want to get that looked at prior to learning to drive...

3) that you need attention, but have no content of your own to contribute...

4) that you feel maligned and wish revenge for some perceived slight...

5) that you are having difficulty reading the screen because your enhanced ego, barely containable within your fortress of a brain, forces your eyes to squint too tightly...causing you to misinterpret the "mysterious" meaning behind simple requests...

6) that you are in discomfort...and wish to share your pain, but do not quite know how to do so...

7) that you were made to feel inferior throughout your formative years and so must strike out at one who will, by his response, acknowledge your true power...

8) that you are lonely, and sarcastic...a fellow who used to be quite amusing, but you have grown either cynical or lost your ability to discern true wit due to lack of practice in real life... 

If he wants to just display some crap, then he should make a blog about it (since blog's primary function is exactly that).

Why? Is it because in order to provide for civility one must build a fortress apart from society? Is not then the clear corollary that the only reason one seemingly must do so is because some choose not to be civil when otherwise offered the opportunity? Are you a shareholder in a major blog-hosting corporation that you might feel it your duty to there direct individuals for their own protection...protection from you...?

Post Praetorian said:

May I inquire after your age?

You may not.

 ...but I just did...?

Post
#760558
Topic
Warbler's Christian thread.
Time

imperialscum said:

Possessed said:

imperialscum said:

 

You made a thread to display your crap and at the same time you forbade people to debate or give feedback. This is an internet forum, not a parking lot in front of your house where you show off your new car.

 There is a separate thread for debating religious topics, Christianity included, why can't you just be a decent human being and take your debates there?  I'm not a Christian, but you can at least respect other people's wishes.  Wanna bag on christianity? No problem, THERE'S A SEPARATE THREAD.  It's not that hard, it's not even inconvenient.  A couple clicks.

You missed the point. My complaint was not about the specific topic. My complaint was regarding the thread itself.

I would have the same complaint if he made a thread dedicated to showing his pubic hair or showing what food he likes, if he specifically stated that people should not debate or give feedback.

 Essentially, your complaint seemingly is that in soliciting the understanding and reasonable conduct of his community, Warbler has no right to count upon your maturity and/or compassion...duly noted...

May I inquire after your age?

Post
#760514
Topic
Some Random Bullshit I Don't Approve Of (was: Dom's Atheist Thread)
Time

timdiggerm said:

C. S. Lewis said:

Consider for a few moments the enormous aesthetic claim of its chief contemporary rival — what we may loosely call the Scientific Outlook, the picture of Mr. [H. G.] Wells and the rest.

Would that derided rest include the doctors to whom the good C.S. went calling during bouts of ill health? Would it include that untrustworthy group that assisted in bringing about so many cures and improvements to mankind's miserable lot so that today the majority who may exist within the nations that embraced such a Scientific Outlook may now live in a style that would surely have been the envy of many a past king? 

Supposing this to be a myth, is it not one of the finest myths which human imagination has yet produced? The play is preceded by the most austere of all preludes: the infinite void, and matter restlessly moving to bring forth it knows not what. Then, by the millionth millionth chance — what tragic irony — the conditions at one point of space and time bubble up into that tiny fermentation which is the beginning of life.

Given that current astronomical discoveries have increasing led to the insight that the basic formative impetus for life are seemingly to be found in abundance throughout the depths of space, and particularly around stars, such a tone of mockery in relation to the topic at hand appears not only dated, but self-rebutting...

Further, given the magnitude both of space and time, does it truly seem so startling that life might have resolved into being through mere happenstance? For surely such a concept must appear no less whimsical than the notion of a creative impulse of infinite duration, complexity, and power (comprised entirely of Love, no less), that may have, after an undefinable eternity, finally settled upon the creation of humanity with its myriad basic design flaws?

Is not one who might attempt a proper understanding of eternity necessarily then forced to allow for several plausible considerations surrounding such a creative narrative:

1) Such a creative god must almost certainly have designed a chosen race an infinite number of times.

2) Such a creative genius must have had an infinite time during which to perfect said design.

3) Any design flaws must therefor either be of purposeful intent, accidental error, or willful negligence (from 1 & 2).

3b) Such designs cannot be the result of accident if said god is to be perfect in nature.

3c) Such designs cannot be the result of willful negligence if said god is to be considered just, lawful, all-loving, and/or otherwise perfect in nature.

4) Such design flaws must needs be the result of purposeful intent (from 3, 3b, 3c).

5) Purposefully creating mankind with design flaws may serve several purposes:

5b) For reasons of entertainment

5c) For reasons of malice

5d) For reasons of study

6) If for the purpose of entertainment God cannot be considered perfect, for a perfect being is, by its nature, to have no lack for which entertainment might be conceived a necessary remedy.

6b) If for the purpose of malice, God cannot be considered good.

7) If God is perfect and good, it must be for the purpose of study (from 5 & 6).

8) If God has then created mankind with express design flaws for the purpose of study, is He not then to be considered a scientist?

9) If God is a scientist, is it likely wise to mock or eschew the scientific method as Lewis appears to propose?

Everything seems to be against the infant hero of our drama— just as everything seems against the youngest son or ill-used stepdaughter at the opening of a fairy-tale. But life somehow wins through. With infinite suffering, against all but insuperable obstacles, it spreads, it breeds, it complicates itself, from the amoeba up to the plant, up to the reptile, up to the mammal. We glance briefly at the age of monsters. Dragons prowl the earth, devour one another, and die.

Seemingly Lewis passes over the alternatives without much fair consideration:

1) God created the dinosaurs with their vicious teeth and claws and was content to watch them maim and gore one another for millions of years before finally getting around to bringing about Adam & Eve.

2) God created so many different creatures at once upon the world that it was veritably bursting with incompatible life forms that immediately set about destroying one another in predictable layers so as to provide the perfect level of confusion for later paleontological research. Adam & Eve survived the continuing bloodbath of nature and, through their descendants, set about taming the horrifically dangerous wilderness God had purposefully made.

Then comes the theme of the younger son and the ugly duckling once more. As the weak, tiny spark of life began amidst the huge hostilities of the inanimate, so now again, amidst the beasts that are far larger and stronger than he, there comes forth a little naked, shivering, cowering creature, shuffling, not yet erect, promising nothing, the product of another millionth millionth chance. Yet somehow he thrives. He becomes the Cave Man with his club and his flints, muttering and growling over his enemies’ bones, dragging his screaming mate by her hair (I never could quite make out why), tearing his children to pieces in fierce jealousy till one of them is old enough to tear him

As mankind apparently descended from a social ancestor such scenarios seem less likely to have been universal given the ultimate "finished" product. Further, such an unstable mankind seems hard-pressed to have survived through to lunch, let alone to have paused long enough to have left numerous cave art showing it had the ability to perceive its surroundings and reason its way from one day to the next.

, cowering before the horrible gods whom he created in his own image.

Such as Yahweh?

But these are only growing pains. Wait till the next act. There he is becoming true man. He learns to master Nature. Science comes and dissipates the superstitions of his infancy. More and more he becomes the controller of his own fate. Passing hastily over the present (for it is a mere nothing by the time scale we are using), you follow him on into the future. See him in the last act, though not the last scene, of this great mystery. A race of demigods now rules the planet

Is such to suggest that Lewis subconsciously harbored a very deep respect for the scientific method after all?

— and perhaps more than the planet — for eugenics have made certain that only demigods will be born, and psychoanalysis that none of them shall lose or smirch his divinity, and communism that all which divinity requires shall be ready to their hands. Man has ascended his throne. Henceforward he has nothing to do but to practise virtue, to grow 10 wisdom

To grow 10 wisdom what, exactly? It is hoped Lewis is not referring to teeth...                                                       (yes, I realize it should be in).

, to be happy. And now, mark the final stroke of genius. If the myth stopped at that point, it might be a little bathetic. It would lack the highest grandeur of which human imagination is capable. The last scene reverses all. We have the Twilight of the Gods. All this time, silently, unceasingly, out of all reach of human power, Nature, the old enemy, has been steadily gnawing away. The sun will cool — all suns will cool — the whole universe will run down. Life (every form of life) will be banished, without hope of return, from every inch of infinite space. All ends in nothingness, and “universal darkness covers all.” The pattern of the myth thus becomes one of the noblest we can conceive. It is the pattern of many Elizabethan tragedies, where the protagonist’s career can be represented by a slowly ascending and then rapidly falling curve, with its highest point in Act IV. You see him climbing up and up, then blazing in his bright meridian, then finally overwhelmed in ruin.

Such a world drama appeals to every part of us. The early struggles of the hero

AKA the Israelites... 

(a theme delightfully doubled, played first by life, and then by man) appeal to our generosity. His future exaltation gives scope to a reasonable optimism,

...being given a savior...

for the tragic close is so very distant that you need not often think of it — we work with millions of years.

...death, and an eternity confined to the worship of God...

And the tragic close itself just gives that irony, that grandeur, which calls forth our defiance, and without which all the rest might cloy.

Would that be the apparent pointlessness of worshiping a perfect being for all eternity (after death) that purposefully invested its creation with design flaws so that it could study what might befall such a race?

Or would that be the apparent pointlessness of worshiping a perfect being for all eternity (after death) that purposefully invested its creation with design flaws for no discernible reason given its ability to see the future as clearly as the present and so to have known the results of said flaws upon their inception?

There is a beauty in this myth which well deserves better poetic handling than it has yet received; I hope some great genius will yet crystallise it before the incessant stream of philosophic change carries it all away. I am speaking, of course, of the beauty it has whether you believe it or not. There I can speak from experience, for I, who believe less than half of what it tells me about the past,

It is to be wondered what Lewis would have thought had he lived on to the present day and seen the evidence of which he had no knowledge then. Had Lewis been able to plumb the depths of the information now at hand would he have been so ready to embrace such ignorance as professed above?

and less than nothing of what it tells me about the future, am deeply moved when I contemplate it.

Why?

The only other story — unless, indeed, it is an embodiment of the same story — which similarly moves me is the Nibelung’s Ring. Enden sah ich die Welt.

I read that this morning and thought it was relevant to this thread.

 It is an interesting read. Thank you for this...it has been quite a while since last I analyzed it.

Post
#760414
Topic
Going away? Post so here!
Time

Possessed said:

I don't hug men anyway.  :P

(Not that there's anything wrong with hugging men, and not that there is sexual attraction involved when hugging women, and not that there would be anything wrong with it if I hugged men out of sexual attraction for them, it's just not me and it makes me uncomfortable. :D )

 Now there's a concise explanation if I ever saw one... ;-)

Post
#760373
Topic
Going away? Post so here!
Time

Leonardo said:

I should take a break, if not leave altogether.

Recently I've lashed out at Dr Crow and Warbler.

I realize in the last few years I've become a bitter asshole.

Things haven't been good in my life, on account of me both meeting bad people, making the wrong decisions, and last but not least, being a lazy bastard.

As a result, I've become a misanthrope and a misoginist.

This place really is no different with or without me. I don't bring anything of value, and I don't fit.

As I leave, please understand that I have nothing against any of you.

Smell ya later.

 If you leave you will be missing out on all of the snacks I have been making...please have one as a token of our desire for you to stay...

Death Star Cookie Jar

Post
#760354
Topic
The petition to cordially invite Bingowings to return to OT...
Time

hairy_hen said:

Seeing as you only post in Off-Topic, that's like saying all Norm ever did at Cheers was pop in to use the restroom and leave.

Loving this analogy, seeing that Off-Topic pretty much is the restroom of this site.  An often amusing and at times extremely baffling one, but a restroom nonetheless.

 Seemingly it must be a very large restroom...and what are we all doing having so many diverse discussions herein...and do not the other patrons think it odd that we keep returning to catch up on the latest comment hastily scribbled upon the wall...? ;-)

Post
#760311
Topic
The petition to cordially invite Bingowings to return to OT...
Time

Warbler said:

Post Praetorian said:

Warbler said:

somehow, I doubt Bingo actually cares whether or not he offends me. I am pretty certain that his claim of having positive feelings towards me is sarcasm,  and I must have missed where he said he had no filter.

Bingo may or may not want to run me off, but it sure seems like some(Post Praetorian and Possessed and perhaps others) are trying to run me off so that Bingo will return.  Maybe I am wrong but it does look that way to me.  Just take a look at the relgion thread.

 Kindly understand, dear Warbler, the sentiment behind this effort was along the lines of your own prior attempts at encouraging a conciliatory tone between members:

Warblersaid:

_______ and _________,   please calm down and make up.   I dislike seeing two people I respect on here get upset at each other.  I am sure no offense was intended from either of you.  

   Nothing greater than this was intended and no greater take-away should be imagined. Bingowings does not wish to return here. His reasons for choosing not to do so are entirely his own, but he wished to indicate that he bears you no ill will. He made it clear that he does not enjoy creating controversy and yet holds controversial opinions that he seemingly cannot refrain from sharing so he has chosen simply to not engage. He certainly does not wish his desire to abstain from controversy to become controversial in and of itself...

I also wish you no ill will and would be disappointed that this effort at cordiality might misfire in causing you to feel any alienation...without your participation we would lose an entirely different experience no less important than that of Bingowings...or any other member for that matter. This is a community effort and the community erodes with each departure.

 I apologize for misunderstanding you and taking things the wrong way.  

This whole weekend,  I have been rather sleep deprived.   When I am sleep deprived, I tend to get rather depressed and have foul mood.   This was very true last night.   In fact, while I wouldn't say I was having suicidal thoughts, I did come a little too close to that for comfort.  In addition, this thread inadvertantly brought up bad memories for me.  Basically I was overeacting and misunderstanding people.  I am sorry.  

Understood...no problem...

As for Bingo,  if it is possible could you or he post exactly what he said? 

As it is a private message I would require his permission to do so...

To me, the problem isn't that he holds contaversial opinions, its the way he says those opinions is the problem.  Whether or not he returns here is his choice.   I have no power to stop him.  All I can say that I'd rather he not return.

OK...

Besides, this is your bar; I am merely passing through...

Its not my bar, it belongs to Jay.   This place for me is kind of like what the Cheers bar is for Norm.  With the exception  of a couple of years absence, I have been a part of this forum for over 10 years.   That has the effect of making this place feel more mine than newcomers.  Maybe I am wrong in that, but that is how I feel.

btw, how did you find that quote of mine?  If I am not mistaken,  that comes from a few years ago.  That took some digging.  Did Bingo help you find that?

I tend to prefer not to take too much for granted and so typically acquaint myself with some previous history prior to posting on forums in general...I simply recalled this particular post and, recalling the thread in question, sought it out to bring clarity to this matter so it may come to a natural close...

Post
#760270
Topic
Religion
Time

Warbler said:

perhaps I have misunderstood intent of Post Praetorian's recent posts in this thread. 

I was going to post pictures each day this week, marking the events of Holy Week.  I guess I will forget doing so now.  This place isn't mature enough to handle it.

 I suspect Jesus would appreciate more your continuation in the face of adversity than any immediate capitulation...?

For my part I will refrain from any comments herein until well after Easter to eliminate any chance that they might be misconstrued...my temptation to incite philosophical discussion is not to be misinterpreted as an effort to paint a negative picture of religion...

My own [uncertain] opinion is that a world that might entirely reject religion might be a world that might become all the poorer for the effort...much as a world that might singularly reject art and instead extol only the practical might equally become a world in which gray might be the only shade on sale...

Have a good Holy Week...it is good to have things to anticipate...!

Regards, 

Praetorian

Post
#760268
Topic
The petition to cordially invite Bingowings to return to OT...
Time

Warbler said:

somehow, I doubt Bingo actually cares whether or not he offends me. I am pretty certain that his claim of having positive feelings towards me is sarcasm,  and I must have missed where he said he had no filter.

Bingo may or may not want to run me off, but it sure seems like some(Post Praetorian and Possessed and perhaps others) are trying to run me off so that Bingo will return.  Maybe I am wrong but it does look that way to me.  Just take a look at the relgion thread.

 Kindly understand, dear Warbler, the sentiment behind this effort was along the lines of your own prior attempts at encouraging a conciliatory tone between members:

Warblersaid:

_______ and _________,   please calm down and make up.   I dislike seeing two people I respect on here get upset at each other.  I am sure no offense was intended from either of you.  

   Nothing greater than this was intended and no greater take-away should be imagined. Bingowings does not wish to return here. His reasons for choosing not to do so are entirely his own, but he wished to indicate that he bears you no ill will. He made it clear that he does not enjoy creating controversy and yet holds controversial opinions that he seemingly cannot refrain from sharing so he has chosen simply to not engage. He certainly does not wish his desire to abstain from controversy to become controversial in and of itself...

I also wish you no ill will and would be disappointed that this effort at cordiality might misfire in causing you to feel any alienation...without your participation we would lose an entirely different experience no less important than that of Bingowings...or any other member for that matter. This is a community effort and the community erodes with each departure.

Besides, this is your bar; I am merely passing through...

Post
#760221
Topic
Religion
Time

Possessed said:

Nah I'm glad you understand, only God would be saddened at somebody understanding something.

If you think about it, did not God want us to be ignorant and not even know the difference between right and wrong?

And walk around naked?  Think about it.  Do you really want to worship a God who is a sexual pervert (joke) and wishes we were all like animals?  (not joke)

 To consider this in proper context, let us first imagine the corollary of such alleged preferences:

To fail to appreciate right from wrong, to be naked and uninhibited, to lack self-consciousness...do not all seemingly suggest the attitude of a child? If so, does not the allegation likely suggest that God preferred humanity to be innocent and child-like? Would not the attitude of a child--trusting, easily impressed, guileless, and simple--be more likely in keeping with a god of pure, uncomplicated love?

Indeed if such a god were to exist it might be possible to understand such a narrative...but only insofar as such a god might be regrettably limited in power to prevent the downfall of its creation. Unfortunately for the Bible, the god therein makes claim to no such lack and so as a result not only seemingly sets mankind up for a test He knows it cannot pass, but then seizes upon said failure as a clear excuse to potentially passively torment same for eternity--both in the physical and spiritual realm.

...a potentially strange arrangement to have been allegedly precipitated by Pure Unchanging Love...?

Post
#760210
Topic
The petition to cordially invite Bingowings to return to OT...
Time

*****

...and now an important update on this fine petition of cordiality:

Bingowings wishes to thank you all for your concern, but will be unavailable to partake of these festivities...his positive feelings towards Warbler currently prevent him from causing this member any untoward harm by any unnecessary reappearance. We have been given permission to be as Bingo-esque as we should desire in his absence...thank you for your time and understanding in this matter, etc...

Kindly close the door on your way out as I have possibly imbibed too much to show you out properly...that is all...

Regards,

Praetorian

Post
#760110
Topic
The petition to cordially invite Bingowings to return to OT...
Time

darth_ender said:

Perhaps in a cordial thread I shouldn't have brought up my issues with him.  But I reiterate again, he is welcome back whenever he wants.  I never meant to drive him away, and I too love his sense of humor.  There are several things he has done that I found particularly rude to me specifically, not the least of which was not only a lack of apology in any particular disagreement, but a flat out refusal to do so, saying he only apologizes when he believes he did something wrong.  In other words, in every disagreement, while I would do my best to straighten things out and smooth things over, I was always 100% to blame in his mind.  I miss the nice side of Bingowings, but all of him, rude and self-righteous or peacemaker and humorist, is welcome to return whenever he wants.  I never sent him away and was surprised at such a dramatic move.  I'll continue to try to make things work if he ever decides to return.

 Thank you for your kind consideration...