kaosjm said:
I am going to be seeing Terminator 2 presented in 35mm on June 20. Is there anyone that needs me to pay attention to color detail in any particular scenes?
I would just be curious if any of those pics I posted from the 8mm look the same as the 35mm (more greens, purples and teal). Or if the 35mm is closer to the BD. Thanks kaosjm
kaosjm said:
A local theater chain in my area is playing this in 70mm on June 20 and I'll be seeing it. Is there anything that anyone needs me to take note of?
Maybe look for the color of the moon while the shuttle passes over. (Post 118). Curious to see if it is green or brown. Thanks
Agreed with what everyone said here, thanks for all your amazing work poita!
This is a historical moment in film.
Well I don't know the color of the backlight or the exposure of the camera used to take those shots but I bet thats a bit closer to what the theatrical prints of T2 then any home video version. Not perfect but closer.
Sadly, I was given a chance to get a 35mm print for around 600 US but couldn't afford it at the time. Believe it or not the 8mm is more expensive. Somewhere around 700. Full length, scope 8mm are rarer and widely sought since people can play at home without the big expensive 35mm equipment. It would probably be easier and cheaper to buy a 35mm print.
I think computers can get very close but can't match chemical timing perfectly. It's not the chemical timing is better or worse, it's just chemical and computer timing are different beasts.
And a bit off topic but still in the Cameron world. I posted these pics on fanres as to what Aliens looked liked in theaters:
8mm
35mm
Looks closer to the bluray then any of the other home video versions. Seems to be a color theme developing concerning Cameron's films.
I've been searching for a 35mm print for awhile with no luck but I did find this 8mm mastered from a release print. Only able to get pics from it but it does look interesting.
As with anything Leone, very interested
Here you go:
Hey Spaced Ranger. I'm out of town so it will be awhile before I can get that pic to you
captainsolo said:
PDB, the big difference in the DC on the big screen is how many fluctuations and levels of color there are. For instance the journey to Tyrell corp. begins to lighten and only reaches the brighter state upon arrival. It appears much like the IC BD in your comparison which ties into my belief that the archival versions source was the new scan of the DC originally done for the 2006 limited DVD reissue.
I don't recall Sebastian's apartment being pink-ish at all in that shot, but I could be mistaken. There were a number of color differences I noticed but it felt more like they were due to NTSC limitations and mastering for older video standards. Both Embassy and Criterion used a similar element and seem to have higher contrast as well as the boosted colors. I think the DC LD comes a lot closer in accurately replicating the source.
Those stills show some of the more vivid colors of the older transfers, some of which are in the DC print-some not. Again it comes down to what timing was applied in 1982 and how each print was produced. I do think that direct comparison will help, but for all intents and purposes the DC print results in not only what was shot being faithfully reproduced but also the film that should have reached audiences in 1982.
Thanks for the rundown captainsolo. Much appreciated.
TServo2049 said:
No idea how many of these color differences would be lab variations, and how much would be timing differences in the sources used for the transfers. Any idea how all the other sources compare? (Criterion LDs, the P&S Embassy transfer, etc.)
That's a good point, Servo. Officially, I think only the Embassy LD video was not director approved. I think Scott had a hand (maybe minor only) in the Criterion Collection LD, the Warner LD (and by extension DVD) and the BDs.
Comparing the Embassy LD is totally different from everything else, having an extreme yellow tint throughout. You can see the pics throughout this and the Alien thread. Its interesting and started me on this project but ultimately probably wrong. I might go back to the regrade sometime since it was unique but for now the CC is my preferred source. Not sure if the CC and Warner DC are from an IP or OCN but the BDs are from those for sure.
The CC LD and the Warner DC LD match up very well. Both have the sunlight on the way to Tyrell's, both don't have the pink in the Priss scene, both have a more blueish tint throughout. I don't know if the Warner guys used the CC as a basis or what have you but both look suspiciously similar.
That's not to say the LDs look radically different then the BDs. They match up in more then a few scenes. Outside of the scenes I have mentioned, most of the changes and subtle, different highlights, etc, etc
As for LPP, 1982 is the year the stock debuted. In an article on low-fade stocks on in70mm.com, the author said the earliest LPP print he owns is of John Carpenter's The Thing. That released on the same day as Blade Runner, so it's conceivable that it would have had LPP prints too.
The only odd part is it being mono. I thought Dolby Stereo was fully mono-compatible by 1982, and so separate mono prints no longer needed to be made. (Heck, I was sure that the mono compatibility issues were worked out not long after Star Wars; I had never heard anything about general-release 35mm mono prints of any other Dolby film after it.)
Interesting thanks for the info. I knew LPPs started up around that time but I'm surprised BR got one. Especially, since all the US prints I've seen of BR were partially faded to red. I'd love to see that The Thing LPP, that would be amazing.
Actually, I have seen a few post Star Wars prints that were mono from Dolby Stereo productions. In fact one of the BR prints I have seen sold before was mono also. I was more surprised it was using the most modern printing technique (LPP) but with mono. I have also seen an Alien print that had a mono soundtrack and the 35mm print I saw of Road Warrior was played in mono. I don't know if the print was mono or DS since I never saw it in person but the theater I was in has a DS setup and I've seen a few 80s era DS print in there. So if it was DS they could play it.
skoal said:
PDB, 'moving target' is akin to what TServo2049 is saying. Don't get me wrong, I like reading many of these threads, especially when there are good thoughts, however, as you may guess...
I haven't read anything is this thread that (IMO) counts as authoritative. Nor have I read anything in this thread that mentions something that's missing or that needs preservation.
All this talk comes down to each persons preferences, sensibilities, pickiness, and (faulty) memory. I get it, some don't like the colors, however are they that bad?
It seems some color choices are being picked because someone remembers it that way? Seriously? It's not even worth it to type how misguided this is.
Sorry skoal. I might be a little dense today but I'm still not sure what you mean by moving target still. Do you mean I changed sources to grade off of? If so this started as an experiment and as better sources became available, I use those instead. Its simple. As my knowledge of a source increases, it helps to shape the project. I used the Embassy LD until people suggested I look at the Criterion. Let me address your other items.
As I have said many times in this thread or my Alien thread, this version is not more right then any other version. I'm not an authority and in no way claim to be an authority. I haven't seen a vintage print of BR or Alien in recent enough years to guess at the right colors. And without having a good print I can't say for sure what BR would look like in theaters. But what I am trying to achieve is a version that enjoys a somewhat parity with the official BD.
Also I have pointed out on the OT, I'm very against going of what I think is the best color, straying as close to grade source as possible (mentioned recently in the 2001 thread too). I consider it a very dispassionate process, taking what I like out of the equation. The only time I make a changes is if there is clearly a problem with the source. Usually the limits of the technology at the time it was made. I'm also against going off people's memory of what a film looked like but since captainsolo just saw it and is an extremely observant man (read his entries in the Bond thread), I think I can make an exception in this case. He's earned that in my eyes.
But why do this? First is that Mr. Scott loves to change his movies. That includes color and that's not limited to changes in technology. Second, it is possible that release prints and OCNs can look nothing alike after color timing. Most modern BDs are from OCNs or IPs and sometimes they color correct to make them look like a release print sometimes they don't. Sometimes the leave the scan as is. Sometime they radical change everything. Sometimes they color correct with very good intentions and screw it up royally (cough Good, Bad and the Ugly cough). Is the BR BD like that? Maybe, maybe not. I don't assume since a source is new that it is better or righter then an older source.
You can accept this premise or reject it. If you say I'm wrong to re-grade to the LD and the BD is right, you are entitled to that opinion and you maybe completely right. I could be totally wrong. I am in no way forcing this project or any other on you or anyone else. Or telling you, you have to accept it as the true or right version. We all rationally know better. All I'm doing is grading the BD to look like the LD, which I feel is a better source. Close to a release print. I have only ever treated all my projects as alternatives to the official releases.
But in the end relax its just a stupid project :)
hairy_hen said:
If anybody wants to send me the various laserdisc tracks for Raiders, I will compare them to each other and to the DVD and Bluray versions and see what I can find out about their relative dynamics and balance.
I'll send you a copy of both LD tracks I have, hairy_hen. I'm already uploading the analog for someone else. Just give me a bit to upload the digital too.
Just FYI, the analog capture is raw so there are big gaps from the disc switching, ads, trailers, a false start, dead air at the end, etc. I didn't get around to syncing it so I didn't clean it up. The digital is cut down since I did sync it.
Skipping through my analog capture you can tell its not as dynamic as the PCM. It sounds nice in some place and a little wobbly in others.
captainsolo said:
PDB does your analog track match the DVD or the WS LD on the staff drop? I've long been curious about that. Of course I just now went back and re-compared the two. The DVD has one sound of the stick hitting, and the LD has it roll around slightly.
The rest sounds the same but the WS LD mix has a potency that isn't in the 5.1. I don't know how to explain it exactly but it packs a lot more punch overall. Additionally the score has some directionality that isn't in the discrete version.
I assume we are talking about when Indy drops the staff into the map room. If so there is definitely a difference. The digital has a bounce sound. Here is a sample, I'll keep it hosted for a few days. The first sound is the staff hitting on the P&S analog LD's soundtrack and the second is the widescreen LD's soundtrack.
https://mega.co.nz/#!2UMzgToa!niZ7PdLISdRxbqfCJcc89--zwZ6wprGOe5syDoBKccU
Here is what it looks like (first the analog, second digital)
I didn't have the DVD handy to compare but I'm sure someone will compare this sample to that and the BD.
TServo2049 said:
The P&S Dolby mix needs to be preserved. The only problem is that it was only ever released in the U.S. in analog. (There isn't even an LDDB listing for a stealth digital re-pressing, like they have for that supposed PCM issue of Grease that SilverWook and I could never actually find a copy of.)
Already done (at least the analog part). I did a rip a couple years ago of the analog soundtrack from this LD:
http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/11029/LV-1376/Indiana-Jones:-Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-(1981)
since there were rumors the letterbox soundtrack was changed.
captainsolo said:
I saw a packed midnight show resulting in the best version I've ever seen. Besting even the 35mm FC in 2008. Gorgeous, organic and natural with perfect grain and fine detail which revealed an even more delicate color palette with some of the more vivid look found in the old IC transfers.
Hey captainsolo, mind if I ask some questions? If you remember from watching the print.
Between the LDs I've seen and the BDs I've noticed two big differences. The first is the when Decker and Gaff travel to the Tyrell building in the spinner. In the IC BD, the sky is dark until closer to the end of the trip. In the CC IC and DC LDs the sky is yellow the whole way. Do you remember what it looked liked? I made this comparison earlier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjnJ0ge3jCA
Another big difference is when Decker enters Sebastian's place and Priss is pretending to be a doll. In the BD its very pink but in the CC LD its a lot more muted and more towards brown/yellow:
BD/BD regraded to Criterion LD
skoal said:
Do you have a source for this bit of information? I ask because I've never seen anyone else say or reference this and I would like you to provide a reference.
captainsolo said:
...
... the Workprint that surfaced in 1990/1991 (supposedly due to Steve Hoffman ...
...
Don't get me wrong or mad, I really like this site, however it seems this thread is trying to hit a target that doesn't exist.
skoal, have you ever read Sammon's Future Noir: The Making Of Blade Runner? It covers the discovery of the workprint and the making of the DC.
No worries about being mad but I don't understand what do you mean? I don't follow about the target and such.
Jetrell Fo said:
My LD copy of the DC should arrive soon PDB, if it's needed let me know.
:)
Thanks Jetrell. Jonno already gave me a copy so I'm good there but I appreciate the offer none the less. The DC more or less is spot on to the Criterion, even having the Tyrell sunrise, etc.
So funny this thread was revived. There was something interesting posted on the 35mm forum. A user was selling a LPP of the American Cut of BR. First of all I didn't know the BR had any LPPs. I thought all the prints would of been faders. Also interesting it had a mono soundtracks not DS one. Anyway as much as I would love to get that print it sold for more money then I could ever spend on it. But I did copy the pics of it that the seller posted:
So going through those shots and quickly comparing them to the BD and LD was interesting. First disclaimer, these are pics of a 35mm print and maybe off from the actual print, blah,blah,blah, you get the point.
First of all neither the BD or LD are that intense level of blue but the LD has more over all blue then the BD. The shot of the eye is best matched in the BD. The LD doesn't have that much green in that shot. The shot of Priss is much closer to the LD, the BD has some blue but its muted whereas the LD is very blue. Zora falling after shot is pretty similar in both so that's a tie. Deckard and Rachael is close to the BD since they are more pale but its not that big of difference. The Priss shot looks like neither, that's odd. The two of Roy are closer to the LD (the BD has blue in it too) but again not that intense. Neither version have a blue tint on the unicorn. Finally, the shot of Rachael in the car is closer to LD.
Scratch that, The HDTV copies I have are the same master as the BD
The screener looks closest to the BB prologue but it does have the blue the Servo described. It seems to match his description of the IMAX print the best. I think that maybe you have your go to color scheme, CSchmidlapp
Not sure it helps but here is what that 16mm print of Rear Window that was sold on ebay looked liked:
It looks like it had started going a little red.
Aluminum Falcon, I got a HDTV copy of Rear Window that is 4:3 and another that was 16:9. I believe both were off the "Russian Tracker". Let me check to see if they are actually different from the official BD. They may be the same master.
Spaced Ranger said:
.
@ PDB
Was the Apocalypse Now 1st showing a nationwide premiere or a main-theater sneak-peek (many films do that for final touch-up)? 2001:ASO not only was a premiere, but a simultaneous opening to the big Cinerama theaters across the country. When Kubrick made his famous final trims in/from New York, instructions were sent to those other theaters of where and what to cut for showings thereafter ... for the finalized film (credits untouched).
Sorry I should of been more specific, its was AN's 70mm sneak peak that had no credit and the original fire ending. The had and the credits printed for people to read. kaosjm posting reminded me of that.
Back to 2001. I will work on it eventually but it will be a while. I have too many projects to finish at the moment and too little time. I have what I believe is all the materials I need (BD, MGM 5.1, CC video and PCM 2.0). If anyone want to tackle it before me, be my guest.
…
AntcuFaalb said:
PDB said:
AntcuFaalb, have you considered including the laserdisc track also?
Yes, but I haven't done a bit perfect rip of it yet and my audio editing skills are insufficient, so I wouldn't be able to sync it to the R1 DVD.
Well I have a bit-perfect capture if you need it. I remember it was a relatively easy sync to the BD (unlike Temple) but the HDTV and DVD are different beasts.
Doombot is right. That's the one I know about too. When it says South America.
AntcuFaalb, have you considered including the laserdisc track also?
The missing credits sounds like how Apocalypse Now was presented when it was premiered.
alexp120 said:
Hi, PDB
I've been following your project of the Alien Color Regrade with great interest.
I would like to ask if you have any news that you'd like to report on your progress.
Thanks,
Hi alexp120, I'm still working on both, I just have been doing more updates on fanres then the ot. I fixed the video for the most part for Alien, so its coming together.
Jetrell Fo said:
I have the Japan Quadrilogy that has only the Theatrical Aliens version but it does have home DTS audio for it that the US version does not have. I'm excited to see this project when it's complete. It will be a nice addition to the other stuff I have.
I think I remember that. Was that the one that came in the big Alien head? Hopefully it will live up to expectations.
dark_jedi said:
PDB do you happen to have Day of The Dead bit perfect PCM?
Sorry DJ I don't have it.
alexpeden2000 said:
Watched your version of Terminator 2 the other night and really enjoyed it. The skin tones defintely look better and the image was as good as its going to be with the current scan. The CDS mix was fantastic! I've only got a basic speaker set up but it sounded vey full on and exciting.
I only flicked through T1 briefly but it seems to be a big change from the current blu-ray in terms of colour. Out of interest, what was your source for your colour grading?
Just got T2 downloaded last night also. Best presentation of the movie I've ever seen or heard. Thanks for the hard work guys.
On to download T1