Thanks guys, glad you enjoyed it. Since I wanted to put this together quickly a few issues have been pointed out so I might have to do a version 2 sometime or release the 4K version cut down to the international cut, which is what I worked on first.
Well I just want to say thanks for all the hard work syncing the English soundtrack to the Mondo. It was a great help to this project.
This program is amazing and can be a real game-changer in restoring 35mm prints.
Again thanks for the information poita. I appreciate it.
You only need it for capture, so when capturing one reel at a time, and with lossless compression, you can get away with using that drive. You just capture until the drive is 80% full, and then copy it off to HDD storage, and then delete it and continue your capture.
poita, thanks for sharing all this info. Its great to read.
Mind if I ask some questions:
What format are you capturing in; Tiff? I assume the full bit depth of the camera, 12-bit?
With the earlier mention of lossless compression, I am wondering what capture format is ideal as well.
Why are you triggering the LED light source instead of leaving it always on? Is it to save on the life of the LED?
I think I can help on this one. If your film motion is continuous through your scanning rig with a constant light source and no shutter, your scan will be streaked as the film is pulled through the projector gate. The reason for triggering the LED light source is to freeze the film image in the gate for the imaging sensor. It works on the same principle as a flash photo that freezes action. (This flashing must be synchronized with the image capturing sensor, lest you capture half of one frame, the other half of the next frame, and the frameline between them.) If the motion of the film through the scanner is intermittent, that is, if the frames stops in the gate for a moment in the same fashion that a movie camera briefly stops each frame in the gate and then opens its shutter to make an exposure (often 1/48th second for 24FPS photography), theoretically you might be able to get away with a constant light source. http://forums.kinograph.cc/t/image-sensor-optical-components/44/37
Thanks camroncamera your explanation of the second point makes perfect sense the more I think about it.
As for my first point the thought had occurred that it wouldn’t be an image sequence at all and would be an uncompressed AVI. Although personally I have never captured an AVI with more then 8-bit depth. I guess you can’t run any compression (like lag) on the fly either given the amount of information coming in. That explains the amount of drive space that poita was talking about.
poita, thanks for sharing all this info. Its great to read.
Mind if I ask some questions:
What format are you capturing in; Tiff? I assume the full bit depth of the camera, 12-bit?
Why are you triggering the LED light source instead of leaving it always on? Is it to save on the life of the LED?
Concerning audio, I know you can transfer the optical track to PCM/WAV using freeware software but would that software work on optical tracks encoded in Dolby noise reduction?
Sorry not to my knowledge
Since it was legitimate cut (Director sort-of approved) and was the default cut at one time, I would call it more of a preservation or restoration. But that’s me.
I love the spleen for the rare and interesting stuff and would like it on there but I and other people have been told that things like this are no longer welcomed.
Thanks Dek, yeah that’s right. The spleen’s new enforcement policy means its no longer friendly to these type of projects, so had to find a new home.
Peter, your knowledge has been invaluable to everyone here including myself. I am sad that you are withdrawing but you are making the right choice as family always comes first. I wish the best to you and your family in whatever the future might bring. Godspeed
Duplicating this thread from the sister site fanres here:
http://forum.fanres.com/showthread.php?tid=706
Project Info:
The Good, The Bad and The Ugly (TGTBATU) is my favorite film of all time and recently I was lamenting the fact it wasn’t in HD. So the goal of this project is to quickly recreate the International Cut/US Theatrical Cut (IC/TC) of The Good, The Bad and the Ugly in High Definition. Sort of a stop-gap till the superior 35mm project is released.
The 4K Blu-ray (BD) was rejected as the video source because even though it had the best detail, the colors, contrast, gamma, shadows, highlights are ruined beyond the ability to successfully fix. You can fix the colors for some shots but something like the black level can never be fixed. So the wonderful Italian Mondo BD was used instead. Although I tried to use the 4K for all the replacement shots the before mentioned problems stopped me and certain shots had to be taken from the old Extended Edition BD (EE). Those shots were then color corrected and re-grain to try to match the Mondo as close as possible
The movie cut is synced to the 1993 laserdisc which is the last time the IC was on video (not counting VHS). Even the 1998 DVD/LD is a restoration, incorporating shots from the Italian cut never seen in the IC.
Video:
The Italian transfer from the Mondo BD cut down to sync with the 1993 laserdisc of the International/US Theatrical cut. Additional shots from the US 4K and older Extended Edition BD.
Audio:
The PCM mono from the 1993 laserdisc in PCM 2.0 format.
Output:
MKV compatible within the spec for a 25GB BD
Cut List:
-Removed Italian credits and replaced with 4K’s credits. Regraded 4K’s credits to better match the Mondo (kept one Mondo shot)
-Removed shot of the single gunfighter on his horse in the intro. Remove close up of the two gunfighters
-Removed Italian “il brutto” title. Replaced with the 4K’s English “The Ugly” shot and regraded to the Mondo’s colors.
-Removed shots of Angel Eyes filling his bowl with food
-Removed shots of Angel Eyes eating
-Removed Italian “il cattivo” title. Replaced with the 4K’s “The Bad” and regraded to the Mondo’s colors.
-Kept extra shot of Blondie’s gun after “rescuing” Tuco. Its on the 93 LD
-Kept “flip cut” transition from Tuco talking to Blondie to being hung. It’s on the 93 LD.
-Removed Italian “Il buono” title. Replaced with the 4K’s English “The Good” and regraded to the Mondo’s colors.
-Removed shots of confederate soldiers leaving town. Removed shots of bandits sneaking up on Blondie. Removed shots of Blondie cleaning his gun
-Removed longer hold on Blondie when confronted by Tuco
-Removed shot of wall being destroyed by cannon fire
-Removed Angel Eyes’s visit to the Confederate fort sequence.
-Removed Blondie’s and Tuco’s interaction in the desert, where Tuco eats and taunts Blondie.
-Removed the Confederate guard post scene. Restored fade in from black as the coach arrives at the monastery.
-Kept fade out/fade in at the monastery from when Blondie passes out and Tuco is bringing him water. This is present in the 93 LD but not in 98 DVD/EE/4K
-Removed additional dialogue scene in the coach between Blondie and Tuco.
-I re-cut the Mondo’s arrangement of the “Tuco Torture” scene into its individual shots and rearranged them to match the IC/TC scene arrangement. I then added 6 shots from the old American Extended Edition that the Mondo was missing and regraded them to better match the Mondo’s colors.
-Removed Blondie meeting Angel Eyes’ gang by the river and restored the shot of the train leaving the station cutting to Tuco in the train.
-Removed part of a shot of Tuco preparing his bath
-Removed the extra dialogue interaction between the Union commander and Blondie and Tuco.
-Removed extra scene extension of the Union commander moaning from his gun wounds.
-Removed extra scene extension of Blondie and Tuco setting up the dynamite on the bridge.
-Removed shot of Blondie chewing on his cigar while waiting for the bridge to blow-up
-Removed and replaced 4 shots from the Mondo with the old American Extended Edition’s shots. This is the “Sorry Tuco” scene and not only that shot but the adjacent shots are different in the Mondo vs the 4K/98/93. Regraded to better match the Mondo’s colors.
-Removed the end Italian il brutto, il cattivo, Il buono and replaced with the old American Extended Edition’s The Ugly, The Bad and the Good. Regraded to better match the Mondo’s colors.
-Removed Tuco’s “Son Of A Bitch” Italian shot for the IC’s version of the scene from the EE.
-Removed final Italian shot of Blondie riding off with the old American Extended Edition’s shot to get the English The End graphic. Regraded to better match the Mondo’s colors.
-Removed restoration credits.
Thanks:
Lil Brutto- for information on the various cuts and additional soundtracks
thehutt- for his original English audio sync to the Mondo
Chewtobacco- for advice and additional video
*Since the internal organ is now going to stop accepting these kinds of projects, this project is posted on the BT only
Thanks. Always looking for new sources. Not sure how much production photos help but the blue and the golden tint are more in keeping with the criterion laserdisc’s colors then the BDs
No worries. Thanks for searching out my project.
Its still there. Try searching for Blade Runner (regrade to the Criterion Collection laserdisc). I do expect it to be deleted in the coming holocaust. A better bet is to try the bt site which is more friendly to these projects now.
Thank you Dr Dre!
The strange thing is John Wayne shot first all the time. If there is guy pointing a gun at you, then there is the specific intention that they are going to kill you. So in that case you shoot first. And the Duke did sometimes shoot first if you had a gun him.
Only thing the Duke had a problem with was shooting a man in the back which is totally different
Some examples I could find:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qzkRpvY9FKA
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EfegGAcZwRE
Sorry Spaced Ranger, here you go:
There is nothing wrong with the 4K scan per say but we don’t know if it is anymore accurate to a 35mm print then the older Blu-ray or DVD(s). The thing is most Blu-rays are mastered from the Negatives or Inter Positives which rarely ever have the same (correct) color timing as a release print. You have to get a hold of a release print to actually see what it should look like which is what Doombot is trying to accomplish. We just don’t know if the 4K in anyway captures the correct look and history has shown us that often Blu-rays don’t look like theatrical prints.
Think about the questions we have asked about Ghostbusters in the past. What is the correct contrast of the sky? Should you be able to see the librarian ghosts eyes and what color are they? With this scan we can answer that.
And even if the Blu-ray was color accurate to a theatrical print, there is still a great aesthetic difference in watching a 35mm theatrical print scan. The grain and contrast create a totally different experience. Remember the way the movie was meant to be seen is on a theatrical print so the special effects and mattes that look bad on the Negative scan blend in beautifully in a release print. Spooky sections might look better with the increased contrast.
Although I agree that preserving 35 mm prints is very much worthwhile, and I believe home video releases should preferably have a color grading that echoes the theatrical experience, I do not completely agree with your last point. A print scan on a small screen does not reflect what is seen on the big screen. The color depth of a home release is much less, so things that in the darkness that can be easily seen in a theatre would disappear into blackness on a small screen. This is why home video color grading does have it’s purpose. So, although it is fun to watch a print scan on the small screen, I would not consider it the ultimate home movie experience.
You ask the question, what’s the correct contrast for the sky in Ghostbusters? I would say until our small screens are able to reflect the color depth of the big screen it is a matter of debate.
I’ve read your threads and I know you are clearly a smart man with a wide range of knowledge and I would be reluctant to run counter-point but I think you are expecting something out of a 35mm theatrical print then its going to deliver.
In fact you and I agree on most points. I agree with you that current home video standards do not have enough bit depth to capture the color range of a print. Nor does the UHDTV standard, although by increasing the bit depth it gets closer. And neither does the DCP standard, in fact, capture the full color range of film.
But I think you missed my point and are expecting things out of these prints that they are not going to deliverer at any bit depth. For things appearing on screen that would disappear on your small screen, that is true but only up to a point. Theatrical prints are a few generations removed from the OCN or IP and as you probably know, printing down through the generations affects the contrast faster then say the highlights. Its a Xerox of a Xerox. The more generations the higher the contrast (sometimes an aesthetic choice) and usually the more detail lost in the shadows. There is less detail in the shadows and higher contrast for a theatrical print then the OCN/IP from where it came from and where most Blu-rays are derived.
I try to emphasize this because people come to expect a certain look, the look of an OCN scan and that is simply not what a theatrical print is. That’s why they go back to the OCN, for more detail and less contrast but the OCN does not, usually, have the right colors or the right grain. And have no doubt, the right colors are from a color timed theatrical print. And yes that grain and contrast were factored in to cover up special effects or to hide objects, etc. Makeup took that in account, production did with sets also. That’s why DPs for big production often went through many camera tests.
But I’m happy to say these are already know factors and the prints are being scanned at a higher bit depth and resolution then the current HDTV spec for future proofing. The people behind these prints are well aware of the limitations of current video tech AND the limitations of theatrical prints. My point is you and I agree about current 1080p 8-bit being not enough to cover the wider color range of a theatrical print. That’s a limitation not only for this project but also any commercially available Blu-ray/DVD.
But there is not a lot hiding in the shadow with a theatrical print. There is some more detail at a higher bit depth but not even remotely close to the OCN or even an IP. I’ve compared a 1080p 8-bit with a 4K/2160p 10-bit and there is not a lot more there. Its the just nature of the print. I just don’t want people thinking this is an OCN scan. They are two different creatures.
I agree, I could see this quickly becoming a “slippery slope” situation where movies with perfectly acceptable BluRays are being captured “because we can”.
But I can’t say I didn’t enjoy the heck out of seeing that Jurassic Park print.
I keep expecting that to be true but have yet to see a print that matched its BD counterpart perfectly. Just because a BD looks good doesn’t mean its right. And even if it did match the colors there are other aesthetics to a print beside the colors. Trust me when I say this is NOT a “because we can” operation. Many prints had to be let go because there simply wasn’t enough money.
Glad you figured it out althor1138. Another reason to hate VC-1. Whenever I’ve worked with it in the past it has created nothing but problems. I’m glad it is mostly gone now.
Thanks for the rundown althor1138. I would never in a million years think the Ld would have more frames then the BD, that’s bizarre
There is nothing wrong with the 4K scan per say but we don’t know if it is anymore accurate to a 35mm print then the older Blu-ray or DVD(s). The thing is most Blu-rays are mastered from the Negatives or Inter Positives which rarely ever have the same (correct) color timing as a release print. You have to get a hold of a release print to actually see what it should look like which is what Doombot is trying to accomplish. We just don’t know if the 4K in anyway captures the correct look and history has shown us that often Blu-rays don’t look like theatrical prints.
Think about the questions we have asked about Ghostbusters in the past. What is the correct contrast of the sky? Should you be able to see the librarian ghosts eyes and what color are they? With this scan we can answer that.
And even if the Blu-ray was color accurate to a theatrical print, there is still a great aesthetic difference in watching a 35mm theatrical print scan. The grain and contrast create a totally different experience. Remember the way the movie was meant to be seen is on a theatrical print so the special effects and mattes that look bad on the Negative scan blend in beautifully in a release print. Spooky sections might look better with the increased contrast.
I found this trailer on youtube. Don't know if it has been mentioned before. Per usual you can't trust trailers or cams of 35mm totally but it looks a lot like the remastered BD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=091YtwXPimc
Spaced Ranger said:
PDB said:
... I'd like to thank everyone who helped me:
...
Spaced Ranger: for color correction advice
...
I was thinking more like:
Spaced Ranger: for color correction advice
.
But that's only because I like pretty pictures. :D Actually, thanks for the nod!
If not too much bother, would you post/link to matching .PNG's of the sources I was testing. It's anomalies still haunts me and I'd like to further explore it with uncompressed sources (and, maybe, matching samples from all your sources?) Loose ends drive me Royally Batty.
I knew I should of included more flair :)
Did you just want a PNG of that Decker/Rachael scene, Spaced Ranger? From the LD and BD?
For anyone who still cares about this project. The completed MKV is up at the internal organ. I've updated the first page with the project details. Alien is coming soon. I'd like to thank everyone who helped me:
Jonno: for capturing the Criterion Collection LD
Doombot: for advice, help and testing
Buster D: for the various LD soundtracks
StarThoughts: for the music score to fix the ending
Spaced Ranger: for color correction advice
captainsolo: for information about the film and a 35mm showing
MrNiceGuy: for distribution.
TServo2049 said:
So it does seem there are 35mm prints out there with two different color palettes - the print Tyler saw, and seemingly the print that was camcorded on YouTube (more in line with the blue/orange of the video transfers, but possibly even more pushed to blue; possibly with the biker bar stuff having additional blue pushing that's not in the home transfers?), and the prints kaosjm and Beber saw (blue-blanket scenes less pure blue with more teal and purple, orange stuff is more yellow).
What they seem to have in common (with each other and with the IP/IPs used for home video) are that the night scenes are tinted/pushed - unlike the trailers - and the steel mill stuff is pushed, but to where/how far they are pushed seems to differ. The Wikipedia article on internegatives says that color timing is done between IP and IN - based on the answer print?
This is all so intriguing...
metall_havy sent me 2 copies of Terminator 2 sourced from 35mm. You can tell because they are 35mm source since they have lines, damage and reel changes. One copy has parts that matches up best with the BD. The other better matches with my test regrade. And both have parts that don't match up with either.If fact one of my questions has been the amount of purple in the film and both have it in spades but in different places. And there is various levels of green and levels of orange especially for the desert.
Here is an example of the hallway battle.
BD/Regrade/35mm Video 1/35mm Video 2/Super 8mm
This is all so confusing....
RayRogers said:
Since I own both the Skynet Blu (for the three cuts and extras) and the Van Ling No DNR 2015 Blu, it appears PDB's color timing would be what I'd want.
I'm using the 2015 BD as a base. Who knows if I'm right, just trying to figure out what T2 looks like without having a 35mm print. And Team Blu's version of Terminator were very nice.
