Omni

Nice breakdown RogueLeader, I mostly share your sentiments. I read through the entire “OT Radical Redux” thread a couple years ago and came across some excellent images from user 4throck, who hasn’t logged in recently unfortunately. Here were two that really stuck out to me:

Both can be found here. They’d really compliment the Ewok characterization you’re talking about, and it’d still be effective even if that’s all we add.

RE: Utilizing footage from the Ewok movies - I think if you don’t over do-it, it could definitely work. I’m not as familiar with them but I could rewatch it at some point and take notes as for shots and timestamps on the current version on D+ and see how we go about it.

As for my “main wishlist” for this ROTJ month I’d say these are the two most important things, both related to the Endor section:

• Try to bring to life stuff akin to the 4throck images above, which would subtly improve the whole Ewok business a ton, making them seem more vicious and even the Empire more overconfident and greedy in the process, because it now means they completely dismiss the Ewoks as any sort of threat.
• A new Force Ghost. While it obviously cannot be the 2004 version, Shaw’s isn’t much better. After the “I am your father” twist, which puts Vader as still a regular human at least 9 months before Luke is born, it means he’s in his 50s, guessing Anakin was in his 30s when Luke was born, PT notwithstanding. Shaw doesn’t look the part at all - in fact, he looks older than Guinness! So I would love a new ghost, an aged-up Hayden, but unfortunately I don’t know how that could come to be.

Now, there’s other things I’d love to see come to life, mostly visual changes to try and make Jedi look more appealing. The disconnected first act and the lesser Han and Leia characterizations are just too hard to fix IMO and while I love that we’re focusing on those - and almost cracking the code! - I think some of those are just out of the realm of regular fan editing abilities. So tackling another shortcoming of ROTJ is something I think could be good: pretty much everything visually. Both in its visual style and design but also the cinematography. Flat lighting, boring colors…

• I ended up coming across some proofs of concept made by former user Angel a long time ago, seemingly meant for Ady’s ROTJ:R when that came around, and some stuff was really interesting. This one was probably my favorite, and it even fits in with ROTJ’s visual style (disregard the color grade):

• Another thing we could try to do is a new opening shot. ROTJ’s is just so painfully boring, as is most of the movie visually, unfortunately. Maybe open with the Super Star Destroyer? Don’t know…
• Would it be possible to get new angles of the DSII that isn’t just that flat one from the front?

And one of my favorite ideas, a couple proofs of concept from doubleofive’s “OT.com’s ROTJ Wishlist”:

Both from Bingowings. The new tribal-looking things around Endor breathe some life into the forest moon, and thankfully make it seem less like California.

That’s it I think! Lots of potential, but just throwing out ideas like this might not be the most helpful. Both my computer and FX skills are very limited but I’ll try to see what I can do. As for the color grade, TN1 managed to scan a 1997 ROTJ print recently and the colors there are certainly my favorite for this film, and it looks the best its ever looked. Environments pop and you finally feel like Endor and Tatooine are moody, even if not a lot.

Hope this contributes with something! Cheers guys!

Right, but that’s not really what I’m saying. Just that focusing solely on the “time travelling revisionist” aspect of Lucas’ persona as opposed to putting that side by side with all the good he’s done is what causes situations like these, with Stardust defending Lucas to death and others criticizing him to death.

The OUT is absolutely still the ugliest chapter in Lucas’ history though, undeniably, and we should continue to gather our effort - all of us, Lucas fans, Lucas critics - and ask for an official release, even if fan releases are reaching ridiculously high levels. It’s still sad that the version playing in most houses around the world is a bastardized one that I have no doubt 1977 George Lucas would watch and strongly dislike.

Would like to point out that HelloGreedo’s community is very civil and nice, and that he himself has mostly turned around on his early, PT hating years, which should paint an accurate picture of how PT fans are treated now vs. how they were treated then. I do believe the Ring Theory is a major stretch, but with honest roots in Lucas trying to tie together the saga visually and obviously story-wise as well, to varying degrees of success. But Plinkett is a major no. In his TPM video he claims the opening shot of the original Star Wars is “so brilliant Lucas must have had nothing to do with it.” Stoklasa, not playing the character, in a regular video with “People vs. George Lucas” director claimed that “Lucas is, second only to Ringo Starr, the luckiest person in show-biz.” Amazes me how people still point to him for great critiques. Fucking idiot.

And it’s this desperate attempt to minimize everything Lucas has ever done that gets to Stardust and people like them. To my understanding, they are simply over-compensating now, for the overwhelming hate Lucas received since 1997 but especially since 1999. And over-compensating is really what Lucas’s story is all about, sadly.

After the OT and the Indy trilogy Lucas became a legend. A man that had written and produced several incredible films, and directed three excellent films - American Graffiti and Star Wars both considered to be two of the best there’s ever been - of course he was a legend. Someone that seemingly could do no wrong, but hadn’t done a lot. Look at Spielberg for instance, always in the spotlight with an excellent film. While Lucas was a huge blast and then disappeared, creating this mystique around him.

And of course there was never a world where he’d live up to the expectations on his shoulder. Then came the SEs, then came the PT, then came Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, and the rest is history. People turned on him, demonized him, grown ass men claiming that Lucas “r***d their childhood”. Really disgusting stuff. Constant harassment, etc etc. Really sad to see where all the hype surrounding him led. And now we have the Stardusts of the world, people that grew up loving all the man did and who still love him, and will defend him to death because of people minimizing him for the last 25 years.

Sure, the oojason “time travelling revisionist” thread can be seen as a response to Lucas’ “efforts of burying history” over time, but when people come to this website and that thread stands tall, with no “a moment to thank George Lucas” or something thread next to it, it paints an obvious picture on how the community views him. Essentially the same thing Stoklasa is saying - a lucky hack that’s done nothing right. And of course that’s absurd. He wrote, produced and directed Star Wars and Graffiti. He wrote and produced TESB, ROTJ and the four Indy films. The man is talented, an amazing writer (even if not necessarily an amazing screenwriter) and a competent director. He made three very different films in his middle age but that doesn’t change what he did when he was younger. I think failing to recognize that is what makes Stardust come here claiming he’s a man of singular vision and that he’s right when everyone is wrong.

Of course, Stardust’s position just keeps feeding on this vicious cycle which will probably never end. Again, we should probably all learn something from Lucas’ playbook - which unsusprisingly is the same as the Jedi playbook - and learn to let go a bit.

Imagine liking and referencing a video featuring gags of a crazy man who slaves and preys on young girls. Disgusting.

“Alert all commands, calculate every possible destination along their last known trajectory.”

From Empire. I don’t think R1 is meant to take place immediately before the original film. I think at least several hours, but more like a couple days, take place between the films. I see no big issue.

4K83 has been out for 3 and a half years!

^ Yeah, pretty sure that’s how it was originally envisioned. Kinda like how the laws of physics just observe the nature of things, they’re not what limits nature. Similarly the Sith don’t behave in a certain way because of a rule, the rule just analyzes why they behave in such a way.

ROTJ also reuses TESB footage. The X-Wing shot right before we wipe to the Emperor’s arrival is from Empire.

Here: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/8778/

It looks better in many places because the upscale smoothed some of the hard edges in the Blu-ray, a result of crazy edge enhancement and artificial sharpening applied back in the early 2000s, very common stuff in the DVD era.

It’s easy to just bring in the Death of the Author into it all and claim people bastardized George’s vision, but let’s not forget it was George who decided to pass on the torch. He claimed he had already said everything he wanted to say in the universe and had left some guidelines, but that it’s up to the next generation now. The kids, now adults, that he inspired. I think that’s as beautiful an attitude as telling your whole story, if not more.

In the end it seems like George was the one that, following his buddhist - and Jedi - ways, was able to let go, while some were not. Perhaps there’s still things to be learned from him.

Guys, Adywan just means there won’t be like ~40 seconds of extra footage. He’ll still improve what we see, certainly add ships in the background, new FX stuff, Yavin in the background too… Lots of the little fixes, just none of the extra, dialogue-less dogfights. But he’ll still be working on the Battle. It’ll be more akin to how he did the Battle of Hoth - not changing a whole lot content-wise, just adding on and improving what is already there.

Very interesting developments. I’m always amazed at how specifically Neverar and RogueLeader come up with very creative and unique ideas for all of the movies. I’d definitely be excited. Hopefully the two of you have something written down if the burnout ever really gets to you, to pass on the torch 😃

I’m very glad it’s gone. Definitely my least favorite change.

I love everything in the original Star Wars.

The one thing I probably dislike about Empire is how it makes the dark side and the good side more binary than it had to be. Makes sense in the end but Vader himself calling his side the “dark” one is so taken for granted nowadays but it didn’t have to be that way. He could still think he was in the right. In fact, stuff like ROTS would be far more believable. “I do not fear the dark side as you do.” My guy it’s called the dark side, you should be skeptical of it to a degree, no? Though it also makes sense in that one as Anakin arguably sees it being called the “dark” side as part of the Jedi’s brainwashing and it’s not that different from their light. But anyway, this all traces back to Empire. “How do I know the good side from the bad?” That actually implies there’s a lot more nuance to it, which we don’t really see all that often. Again, thematically it all still works wonders but could be made more interesting if not for this.

There’s all the things to dislike about Jedi so I’ll save it. They’d mostly be down to stuff like “another Death Star?!” which the title asks not to put here, so whatever hahah.

Paul Thomas Anderson is undoubtedly an auteur and his last movie quotes many others many times, including several direct references to Lucas’ American Graffiti. Doubt that makes PTA any less of an auteur.

Dude, lots of people see the parallels that are intended, the story beats, character beats, all that. People aren’t as dumb as you think. It’s just that for a lot of people those parallels fail on many levels, or even if said people like the parallels they’re not enough to salvage their low opinion on other aspects of the film that end up dragging it down. I’ve talked to people about AOTC talking about how it’s an interesting mystery story with inspiration from 40s noir and romance pictures, the classical love story, all that jazz, and how I love that.

These people turned to me and said “Yeah, I know. Still awfully written dialogue, poorly directed scenes and the acting is atrocious. The movie looks like a tech demo also. So I think it sucks.” Which is valid. People see the parallels, Palpatine in the throne in ROTS and ROTJ, they see what George was trying to say, they just either think he’s saying something stupid or that he’s saying something nice, but in a very poor way.

Get off your high horse, man. You’re not the only one that gets these movies. And, again, I say this as a major fan of them.

Stardust1138 said:

StarkillerAG said:

Stardust1138 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I’m in the Bionicle fandom, so I’ve learned to be reticent to demand all the answers from the creators about things they probably never even considered too deeply. Too many people pestered Greg Farshtey (Bionicle’s head writer) for answers about characters’ appearances during the canon contests.

Creators don’t owe you all the answers to minutia.

Exactly. They don’t owe you anything in general. This is where we are alike in slightly differing ways.

George said it best:

“I make my movies for myself. People will say, “When you release it, it belongs to the public.” No, it’s mine. I’m leasing it to you. $10 at a time. It still belongs to me.”

Sorry if this sounds a bit too interrogative, Stardust, but I’ve been wondering: What are your opinions on the original theatrical versions? Because with both your love of George Lucas, and with your recent talk about creators not owing audiences anything, it sounds like you’d be fine with the Special Editions being the only versions available. It’s fine if you are, I’m not trying to shame you, but it feels a bit weird on a site devoted to releasing the original versions. Maybe I’m completely wrong, though.

I’ve really avoided giving my opinion on this for a long, long time but I’ll take the bait.

My opinion is simply that if George approves then I’d be more than happy to have them like when he gives his blessing towards the Academy to show A New Hope at their museum’s cinema. I’d love seeing the Original Trilogy unaltered again as I grew up with it that way too as they were the versions that my dad’s friend burnt me copies of on tape if I recall correctly. I genuinely appreciate the dedication of everyone who works to capture the feeling of what they feel Star Wars was when they first saw it with their various versions but at the end of the day I think only George himself can decide what it truly means.

It’s not ours to tamper with and it’s the artist who gets to choose what they wish us to view. They have a reason for alterations. I think trying to understand why is a more interesting question than asking what were they thinking. I also don’t see the level of distain towards George to be all that productive or fair. I mean other artists have changed their work but I rarely see the level of vicious hate George gets thrown at them. I mean he made changes and a trilogy you may not enjoy as much as the original unaltered or otherwise three films but maybe it’s better to understand him and his intentions if you’re still going to devote time to Star Wars.

However I suppose that’s not neccessary anymore since Disney owns it now and it has run off into a different direction than what it means to him but it may help with viewing his films as Episodes I-VI. Star Wars was always very personal to him. He was what he wrote and he was very concerned about being responsible with what he said in his films. It’s why he made certain changes like cutting back frames with the Imperial Bridge Officers getting shot or having Greedo shoot first or even limiting blood shown in the later films. It may not be something fans as they’re older think about in this way as we really or hopefully know the difference between right and wrong but he was thinking about the current generation children viewing them but also the children that will be here after we’re gone. He’s a futurist and forward thinker. These films are for children but can be enjoyed by all ages.

[…]

Ulimately trying to alter it to how we wish to see it might be personal to us but we should also try thinking about it from the other side too. It’s not always about us the fans as much as I think we’d like it to be. I’ll never discourage anyone from watching the films how they intend or desire to but truly remember at the same time I think that George Lucas Is Star Wars.

[…]

I’m sorry Stardust, but this is all crazy to me. I’m a huge fan of George’s the biggest amongst my group of friends by far. I love all of his movies to varying degrees and in particular his writing. But as his fan - and I know you are one, too - you have to respect George more. Not current age George, but 1977 George. And 1980 George. And 1983 George too. They were just as amazing, if not more, than 1997, 2004 or 2011 George.

He called all the shots in the original movie and he did everything he could at the time, but he saw it as completely fit for release and proudly put it out. The movie was always meant to be for children, and none of them got upset at seeing 10 extra frames of imperial officers getting hit or Han shooting Greedo. That scene was straight out of old westerns Lucas saw as a child and you and I will both agree he turned out alright, even seeing that. Which is why he made something similar for the children of that time and it’s still just as effective.

I don’t think the SE is a travesty of any sorts at all. The absurdity is the fact that current age George does not respect his past self, a guy who made one of the best trilogies ever made. And honestly that’s very normal. Most Lennon interviews from the 1970s have him trashing on his Beatles work, or dismissing all or most of it as shit, even songs he was proud of like Strawberry Fields. It’s how artists are. But where most of them respect where their minds were at when they made the movie/album or whatever, George doesn’t.

When you dive into his psyche a little more with stuff like Skywalking or even more surface-level stuff like Rinzler’s books, you get a good sense of why he’s more like that than others. But it’s no excuse to supress his past self’s work and obviously many others as well. The SE should always, on every occasion, be presented as an extra next to the movies that 70s and 80s George made. Those are the hit movies, those are the acclaimed movies.

My opinion of the Plinkett videos is that they’ve been very harmful in the long run. Obviously done as comedy sketches with the intent of tongue-in-cheek criticism on top, they were mostly taken at face value as de facto deconstructions of the PT movies and essential viewings to understanding “why they suck”, plaguing the internet’s idea of criticism and of the Prequels in the process. There was a spike in aggressivenes overall at the time those were coming out and discussing the PT and/or the videos was very unpleasant in general. The live-action bits with Plinkett are also of extremely poor taste, way worse than anything Lucas has ever dreamed of doing.

But I’m not really a fan of RLM at all. Stoklasa has been on record saying George is the luckiest person in show-biz, second only to Ringo Starr, and that’s easily among the dumbest things I’ve ever heard, so I usually just ignore those kinds of guys. But it is a fact that his Plinkett reviews helped keep the fire of the original Fandom Menace burning, you know, the one that made both Ahmed Best and Jake Lloyd depressed.

But characters like this Rick Worley, defenders of sexual abusers and the likes, are somehow even worse. Harassing actresses like Daisy Ridley and Kelly Marie Tran off of social media and engaging in extremely toxic behavior towards anyone who disagrees with them… perhaps getting back at the toxic and hateful fans à la Plinkett, but in the end just employing the same disgusting tactics.

Two sides of the same, very ugly coin, that is the Star Wars fan base.

Back to the topic at hand, I think Lucas didn’t forget this at all. This was just of way too small importance when it came to the PT. He probably didn’t want to sacrifice whatever story he was telling just to fit in slightly better with a line from a character from a previous movie. This happens all the time whenever talking about unplanned non-linear storytelling, it’s nothing new and it’s no big deal. Always baffles me how everyone gets upset at small stuff like this.

Also, you know, he was in the military, serving the Senate, so technically he did serve Senator Organa 😄

Haarspalter said:

I think a lot of goodwill towards ROTS comes from the fans which grew up with the Clone Wars animated series.

I hear this a lot, but I don’t think it’s the case. Most people just really enjoy the movie regardless of the EU. Anecdotally I know more people that like the movie better than the show than the other way around.

BedeHistory731 said:

What is there to be said that hasn’t already been said? They’re good movie (TPM) and two crimes against cinema (AOTC and ROTS). This trilogy needed TCW to save it and explain things it couldn’t.

Don’t think that’s really the consensus anymore, if it ever was. Maybe around these parts there will be more people who think that way, but anecdotally most of the people I know either IRL (20 - 30 age range) or that I have seen online and in other boards (TheForce.net, for instance) tend to consider ROTS to be the best in the trilogy by a mile and to rival the best of the other two. Curiously, most people I know rank TPM at the very bottom, ST notwithstanding.

To answer the title of the thread - they’re great stories, even if told somewhat unevenly. Ultimately what I’m looking for in movies and especially Star Wars is a great story so for the most part I’m left very satisfied. The PT found its footing and focus as it went on, and got better and better with each entry. I have a good time.

Hot damn this was a great trailer! I’m very excited.

A brief, semi-tangent suggestion re: the crawl - why don’t you, instead of capitalizing ‘Resistance’, have it be all lowercase? I’m more against capitalizing factions in SW crawls than most (out of Lucas’ 6, only ROTJ did it and for no good reason), but it’s more so that they’re not explicitly called the “Resistance” and it’s just what the galaxy calls the people that decided to take action agasinst the neonazis.

I know this sounds confusing but in the same vein that the Alliance is the rebels, and that rebels isn’t capitalized in the original crawl. I think it works nicely since you don’t get a sense that the good guys’ organization is still “officially” called the “Resistance” after presumably they’re the ruling power, and it becomes more of a guerilla unofficial thing. Also because by TLJ they’re being referred to as the Rebels.

The droids didn’t randomly land in the planet Obi-Wan was in, and didn’t randomly land close to his home either. That’s all text for the original film. They knew Obi-Wan lived somewhere around there, R2 I think even knew exactly where. “Secret mission, what are you talking about?!” (as R2 heads in a particular direction). He also escapes at night and has a specific place he wants to get to, which curiously (obviously!) is closer to Obi-Wan’s home since he shows up.

Hopefully it becomes obvious that R2 programmed the pod to land there, near Obi-Wan. And Obi-Wan lived next to Luke on purpose. I really, really fail to see a coincidence. And I’ve tried.

For some reason it’s possible to hear someone coughing in the transition from Queen Amidala telling Palpatine she’s leaving for Naboo and that the “Republic no longer functions” over to the Jedi Council chambers in TPM. Don’t know how I’d never noticed this before, lol.

Anakin Starkiller said:

Stardust1138 said:

Now we’ll never get the canon story of how Luke ended up after ROTJ.

Its like Bond just getting his license to kill and then we never get to see anymore movies.

That’s just patently false. We’ve had two different continuities exploring what happens after, and just because it wasn’t written by the original author doesn’t mean it’s not canon. Besides, Lucas never even wrote TESB or RotJ.

Lucas wrote all six movies he was involved in.