Omni

It’s over at the thestarwarstrilogy.com 's forums.

Great replies CatBus and ChainsawAsh.

For Star Wars I can see why you’d say the DE instead of 4K77, but for Jedi there’s no other option but 4K83 in my view. This 4K83 DNR v1.2 trailer speaks for itself.

For TESB there’s no other option but the DE 2.0 - the grindhouse versions are very rough. The best one is sourced from a 16mm so there’s a lot of picture missing.

TPM: a favorite shot of mine would be when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon with Jar-Jar are swimming towards Gunga City. Favorite whole scene is probably Anakin saying goodbye to Shmi.

AotC: Obi-Wan ariving on Kamino is pretty great. Anakin finding Shmi too. I’ll pick the former for this not to be too similar to DominicCobb’s.

RotS: opening scene.

SW: trench run.

TESB: Leia, Lando, Chewie and the droids escaping on the Falcon. Or one of the many gems of scenes of Luke on Dagobah. Probably the final part of Luke and Vader’s duel though.

RotJ: Vader’s redemption.

TFA: Rey’s introduction.

TLJ: the reveal of Luke being on Ach-To and his subsequent death.

RO: opening scene.

Solo: Kessel Run.

If you get 4K77 you’ll be getting higher picture quality despite possibly slightly less detail in certain shots due to the DE being sourced from the Blu-Ray, which itself was sourced from the negative, while 4K77 is just a scan of a regular Technicolor print. You’ll also be dealing with dirt & scratches and, if deciding to get the “no-DNR” version, a ton of noise and grain as well. If you wait a few more weeks the “Skymaster Edition” of 4K77 will be released with a lot of DNR and a lot of extra cleanup, resulting in the most modern, most ‘official release’ looking 4K77 yet - while still being clearly a scanned print, retaining the fine grain and the filmic look. I think it’s going to be the ultimate version of the film for quite a good while, until maybe DE v3.0 tops it or even the “Skywalker Edition”, but both are likely to take a few years to complete.

Anyway, watching the no-DNR version feels like you’re watching a projected print, but it’s still clean and nice-looking enough for one to enjoy it as a Blu-Ray on the comfort of their couch. The DNR version currently available brings the film much closer to looking and feeling like a Blu-Ray while still retaining the film print feel, and does a marvelous job at that, but in this regard still no match for the DEs. They are much cleaner and obviously less noisy than the no-DNRs though, and is the best 4K77 looks that’s been officially released to date IMO.

You’re probably more familiar with the DEs, which are, IMHO, getting a bit outclassed by the 4KXXs here. Star Wars’ v2.7 is IMHO no match for any of the 4K77 versions. What Harmy was able to accomplish with the material he had available at the time is absolutely astonishing though, and the picture clarity of the DEs is much superior to that of the 4K77s. It’s as of right now the fan preservation that looks the most like what an official release would theoretically look like. Still, like mentioned above, the ‘Skymaster Edition’ of 4K77 is probably going to take the cake on basically everything I’ve mentioned here and stand above the others for a good while.

TLDR: 4K77 is more immersive due to its filmic nature and feel, but still much noisier and dirtier than the DE. It looks much better though. So if dirt, etc. doesn’t bother you, like it doesn’t bother me, then great, 4K77 is definitely what you’re looking for! But the DEs look more like a Blu-Ray and are much, much cleaner - so if that’s what you’re going for, great! I say you should get 4K77 though, so you should probably compare the two.

Since you talked about burning too, I should point out that I don’t think 4K77 fits in a single layer BR though. You might be looking at BD50 if you want 4K77. 😄

Cheers!

Octorox said:

Just got finished watching V6.

Holy crap, I wish! It’s going to take me well over a day just to finish downloading the 1080p version…

Oh, damn. Would you prefer if I edited my post? Any road, thank you very much for the edit and for the quick reply. 😄

Hello Hal, and congratulations on completing COD V6! Are you planning on updating the alternative torrent place for acquiring this edit? It’s usually my go-to. If not, I can totally go to Google Drive, but I believe there are more people that use this alternative torrent place, so may be worth a look? Many thanks anyway.

Yes, me too. The reason I’m advocating for the droid factory scene to be reinstated is simply because that’s still one of the very few moments in Hal’s trilogy that feels slightly fanedity.

By the way, I believe I’ve asked this before, but is the audio transition from the sunset kiss to Kamino more “smoothable” ? It’s one of the roughest cuts. It works just fine the way it currently is, but if still improvable…

So you won’t be using it? I’m sorry if I’m misunderstanding it. I vote for inclusion of both, to be honest. Not that there’s any vote to be had here though 😛

Absolutely agreed, and your first two sentences condensate perfectly what I was trying to say.

I believe in the prequels Lucas would spend more time with a general story in mind rather than with actually the scripts of said stories, leading to the point where there were 2 or 3 (maybe even just 1?) drafts before one of them became the shooting script for The Phantom Menace, and something similar happened during the other prequels. Lucas, fully aware of his shortcomings as a writer, probably knew the scripts sucked, and we all did too. ~

IIRC Lucas wanted others to write/direct the PT? At least to rewrite his scripts à là Kasdan in ROTJ, TESB and RotLA. That’s why Jonathan Hales was brought on board for AOTC, but I think Hales barely had any time at all to do anything with the script though.

It’s interesting to notice that the human aspect tends to be difficult to George in most things he do, at least filmmaking wise: writing character dynamics and dialogue when script-writing or dealing with actors when directing.

I’m sorry it’s taken so long for me to answer.

DominicCobb said:

Omni said:

Took me a while to find this thread, but really good post by both of you.

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

Continuing a conversation in the Lucasfilm’s future thread
Dom, I disagree that Endgame is made of fan service. Granted there is a fair number, in particular, the plan to win sorta makes fan service to the past impossible. Nevertheless, look at what happens to the characters .

“What happens to the characters” is not just what constitutes fan service, in my mind. Yes the plan to win makes fan service impossible to avoid, and I don’t necessarily have a problem with that. But so much time is spent on time travel shenanigans and winks and nods without accomplishing much. One of the most pointless parts is when Cap and Tony go back further to the seventies. Basically its an extended gag, as well as a moment for Tony’s character. Except his character progresses in no way during this sequence, and nothing about it affects his conclusion (beyond the base level 'getting closure with his dad). For Cap, we get set up for his character’s conclusion, but it’s basically just a plot-based set up (this is what gives him the idea) rather than a character one (why does he choose this?).

I couldn’t disagree more that the 70s part of the film was just an extended gag. To me, hearing from his dad that he’d sacrifice everything for his kid was the ultimate thing that made Tony totally willing to sacrifice himself for Pepper and Morgan as his ultimate selfless act - he’d do anything for those 2 to live a happy life, even if it meant laying down his life and trumping every chance he had of living with the 2 loves of his life. I can totally empathize with him not wanting to do that, but I can totally see why hearing his father, a man he saw as barely more than a cold and calculist guy, saying he’d do anything for his kid, would ultimately push him over to this next step. I think that’s why we went back to the 70s. For Cap it was nice foreshadowing, because maybe casual audience members forgot about Peggy.

–Iron Man, whom we may expect will get a “rise from nothing” character arc (that was surprisingly given to #2) becomes finally happy after the opening act. This is the sort of thing you would expect their character to end on… but instead, that character leaves their happy family to do the right thing and dies. They had everything and they lost it to save the world.

A heroic sacrifice falls squarely into the bounds of fan service if you ask me, especially when he’s literally given an “it’s okay” from his wife so leaving his family behind doesn’t seem all that tragic.

Tony’s death really bothers me if I’m being honest. It’s good that we’re talking about TLJ as well because I found Luke’s death to be a great point of comparison. Their deaths are essentially the same right? They pull one last powerful trick to save the day, but it costs them their lives. Here’s the big difference. We know that both Tony and Luke are the types of guys who’d sacrifice themselves to save someone else. That’s not anything new, we’ve seen that before (Avengers 1 and ROTJ). So how do you make this feel like a poignant and satisfying conclusion to their story? You add a complication. At the start of TLJ, Luke is done being a Jedi, has cut himself off from the Force, and refuses to help. In Endgame, they actually do give Tony the complication - he has a family now, a reason to not sacrifice himself. But whereas every single scene Luke has in TLJ is building up to the moment where he makes the choice to save the Resistance, in Endgame, all we get are couple short scenes at the end of the first act where Tony decides merely to risk his life and the life of his family. Him coming to the decision to actually sacrifice himself and leave his family behind isn’t dramatized anywhere in the film.

I believe I tried to counterpoint this earlier in this post but I’ll try again, going a bit more in-depth. Tony at the start of the film was given everything, as opposed to the rest of the world. In a way he had gone back to being very selfish, with a barrier probably more difficult to break (or at least as difficult) as the one Luke had in TLJ. Still, selfless Tony is still inside him and he eventually figures it all out and even volunteers to help, already a heck of a risk and a reflection that his old selfless character hadn’t gone completely even if he now had something much bigger than he ever had before. So he still wasn’t ready to go all the way through, until the travel back to the 70s. The way I interpreted it was that the talk Tony had with his father is ultimately what pushed him over the edge and that’s why that sequence is so important. So all throughout the film Tony’s character progresses from selfish to selfless, one more time, and finally, closure.

I’m sorry but personally I don’t think a single line like “he’s not even born yet, but there’s nothing I wouldn’t do for him,” is really enough to sell the character arc for me. It’s a little too generic and vague to be the impetus for such a specific and hugely impactful decision on Tony’s part. Obviously we know how much Tony loves his daughter. We also already basically know that he’d do anything for her - it’s the whole reason why he makes it clear that they have to keep what they got in those five years. But what pushes him past the selfishness of wanting to save his daughter but also be there for her? A single platitude from his dad doesn’t do it for me; especially when considering how complicated their relationship was - because of that my reaction isn’t so much ‘oh wow he’s cold but really does love Tony,’ so much as ‘oh wow if only he showed Tony that love while he was alive.’

It’s exactly because of how complicated their relationship was that I totally buy it. Even a man as complicated as his father would do anything for their kid. In this case, for him. Tony’s character arc in the whole MCU was leading to that moment. And from what I understand you acknowledge that that’s what the filmmakers intended, which I believe it is, but it doesn’t work for you. Fair enough.

The other thing that bothers me is the manner of their death. I will say when I first saw TLJ, Luke’s death left me a little cold, just because it wasn’t clear until that moment that this would kill him. But the thing that’s makes it okay is that this isn’t just Luke sacrificing himself, it’s him becoming one with the Force (the thing that’s he’s shut out for so long), which is nicely symbolic of his final trick securing his legacy as one of the greatest Jedi ever - he dies but he still lives on, in more ways than one.

For Tony, the cause of death is Infinity Gauntlet poisoning, which, unlike TLJ, is set up. But I personally find it a rather bland choice by the filmmakers. The Infinity Gauntlet gives its wielder an absolutely incredible amount of power, power no one person should have. Thanos fancies himself some sort of god, and believes he has a right to this power. But the power of the Gauntlet is only considered dangerous on a physical level in Endgame. First they have Hulk do it because he can withstand the gamma, and it feels like a nice moment for him because he’s struggled with gamma for so long. But that’s merely an external conflict. There’s a potential here for some challenging inner turmoil. What if Bruce didn’t think he could handle the responsibly and he had to grow towards it? On the flip side, for Tony, he’s being trying and failing for so long now to put “a suit of armor around the world.” The Gauntlet would give him the ability to finally succeed at this mission. But of course it’s always been a dangerous mission, and one that’s tapped into dark aspects of Tony’s personality. Having all the stones could have provided Tony with the ultimate internal conflict, and deciding to do the right thing and give them up would have been (in my opinion) the perfect climactic decision for his character to make. But maybe that’s just me.

“deciding to do the right thing and give them up would hae been (in my opinion) the perfect climatic decision for his character to make.”

Well, he had overcome those demons a while ago, hadn’t he? Sure at the beginning when he was thin and probably suffering with PTSD not to mention depression he brought it back up, but I don’t think he meant it at all, and when he’s healthy and happy and OK again he never once mentions anything of the sort. I can see what you’re saying and yes that would’ve been pretty cool, but at the moment of his sacrifice he was at absolute peace and had already overcome every internal obstacle and conflict that had been posed to him throughout all films.

I don’t think he ever really overcame those demons at all. He goes through PTSD in Iron Man 3 and creates the iron legion. At the end of the movie he seems to have overcome it and quit being Iron Man… until Age of Ultron where he thinks he’s found another solution to the problem. He goes through these cycles, he’s essentially an addict and his obsessiveness keeps drawing him back to that one thing, that he needs to control and protect that which he fears. After Infinity War, he’s given the biggest blow of all. He failed at a battle he knew was coming, and he lost a surrogate child due to his own actions. He’s at the lowest of possible lows. That demon has definitely come back to haunt him, and I think that early scene when he gets back to Avengers HQ is really powerful.

I agree, it’s very powerful and I too wish they’d played more on the whole “we failed” thing for the whole team instead of just for Thor.

Skip ahead five years, and he’s moved on and has a new family. But the specter of that past failure is still haunting him. He still remembers that child he lost. What stops him from taking things too far this time, now that he not only has half the world to bring back but also a biological daughter to protect? This is something that has become his greatest flaw, and it should manifest most strongly in the character’s final chapter. Instead, that demon is dropped after that initial scene.

Yes, but that’s another bit of growth in Tony’s character. He realizes he isn’t always right - exactly because he failed. So the way I see it, his ultimate loss what overcomes the whole “suit of armor” aspect of his character, because it finishes the Age of Ultron arc for him where he made mistakes and started to have self doubts. But it’s only because he was still deeply affected by the battle and the weeks in space and in an incredibly fragile state emotionally that he brings it up in the Avengers HQ scene.

I have a similar problem with Cap’s character. The opening of the film sets up a really compelling and scary possibility. Cap’s whole philosophy “we don’t trade lives” has arguably cost them everything. His steadfast adherence to his beliefs split up the Avengers in the first place which is why Thanos was able to beat them. In every film Cap has always been a rock, but now that aspect of his personality has devastated the world to an unimaginable degree. And he says to himself, “this has to work, because I don’t know what I’ll do if it doesn’t.” And it doesn’t, but we cut to five years later and everything’s fine. Just like with Tony they set up the ultimate internal struggle for Cap’s character and then brush it under the rug so that they can have fun and games. No need for Cap to do any introspection or soul searching. No need to resolve the philosophical differences between Cap and Tony.

Agreed on the portrayal of Cap. To me his character had to digress a bit in this film in order for his character arc to work, but they still throw it away. In the beginning of the film, right after the “five years later” part, he leads groups to try and help people move on, but his conclusion is to go back? I know that’s not what you’re gettting at but it’s worth pointing out.

And yes, totally agree on everything you did actually say. His character was the one that was wasted the most here.

Granted two of the six avengers manage to get the happy ending they deserved and one gets to have a glorious moment out. But the other three and our purple friend are intentionally broken and rebuilt for the movie. But the fans still enjoyed the movie- suggesting “subverting expectations” can be done in a way that both surprises and pleases the fans. As I am sure many who enjoyed TLJ already knew.

I’ll save my problems with how the other three are handled for another day. I’ll just end with this: I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with fan service, and I think there’s certainly some entertainment value to be had from it, which is not nothing. My problem is only when the fan service gets in the way of the story; in Endgame, I’d say specifically where I take issue is the extended time travel shenanigans, which puts a few (not all) of the character arcs on the back burner for the purpose of a good time, and especially the final battle, which is basically pure spectacle that overshadows any potential for inner character conflict or deeper philosophical/thematic conflict and comes down to a very base level all of us vs. all of them, with the stakes being merely ‘win or lose.’

While I agree with you here, I think the way the Russos executed it was good enough to make me buy that all the inner and philosophical/thematic conflict had been resolved by then.

Personally, while on some level I enjoyed the sheer size of it all, ultimately I found the battle hard to engage with on an emotional level without any deeper stakes for the characters.

My favorite little moment is when Star-Lord finds Gamora. Or maybe when Cap yells to Spider-Man “Hey Queens!”

Oh yes, Guinness couldn’t stand most of the dialogue from the script he got despite enjoying the script quite a bit. Lucas is just pretty bad at fully grasping the way humans would naturally talk to each other in a normal context. He’s great at capturing and reproducing, and, well, writing that which speaks to the core of each one of us, I believe.

Also, Star Wars’ script was picked by the AFI as one of the best ever, while none of the other films’ were, not even TESB, so that has to say something about his writing. I believe American Graffiti was at least nominated as well.

And I don’t quite buy the people that say that Star Wars’ script is only like 30% Lucas.

Hey guys! Are the Disneyland and Disney World parks going to be the same?

ZkinandBonez said:

Omni said:

Every time I show the original film to any of my friends the reaction is the same: “pretty cool, but slow and several effects look dated”.

SilverWook said:

Which is a silly complaint. Every FX laden movie is going to look dated eventually, except 2001: A Space Odyssey of course. 😉

Compared to how many tend to react I’d that’s a fairly reasonable reaction. Unfortunately too many people just outright dismiss old films because some elements of them are dated.

Though just out of curiosity Omni, which version did you show them? And if you don’t mind me asking, how old (roughly) are you and your friends?

Roughly 20, so we’re all kind of from the post-CGI era. I’d always show them the DeEd until the release of 4K77, which became the standard. Most of the complaints were surrounding some stuff looking weird in the Death Star Attack and half a dozen Falcon shots that looked unnatural.

TESB got no such complaints whenever I showed anyone the film, albeit that didn’t even happen half as many times as me showing someone Star Wars. For TESB I’d use the DeEd 2.0 until Revisited, but I’m thinking only OUT so I’m disregarding the times I showed people Adywan’s version.

canofhumdingers said:

Shopping Maul said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Shopping Maul said:

I remember when ANH was perceived as a SPFX milestone with breakneck pacing. Of course these days, especially to kids, it seems cheap and slow paced.

Really? It didn’t bother me or any of my friends when we were kids during the release of the PT movies. There were plenty of modern films to compete with, yet as far as we were concerned the OT was as good as it gets. (Ditto on the orig. Indy movies.)

I’m not saying everyone was/is bothered by it, but the perception obviously changed as the films and the technology evolved. In its day Star Wars felt the way something like Infinity War might feel today - just huge and fast and mind blowing. Now of course it seems so much simpler.

My two boys (ages 3 and 5) thought Star Wars was pretty huge and fast and mind blowing when I showed them 4K77 in February. Certainly quite far from simple.

Maybe it’s because at such an early age they’d seen nothing as mind blowing as Star Wars yet?

I’ve always found it interesting how much of a difference there is between people who were shown old films when they were kids compared to those who weren’t. They usually have an entirely different relationship with movies and entertainment in general.

And yeah, I totally agree with that! My folks showed me tons of old movies when I was little and I think that’s made me much more susceptible to enjoying stuff with that old feel. Worth noticing that one of the friends I showed Star Wars to said she didn’t really enjoy watching old movies in general because ‘they tend to look bad and be slow’. Can’t argue with her on either but you get the idea.

Every time I show the original film to any of my friends the reaction is the same: “pretty cool, but slow and several effects look dated”.

canofhumdingers said:

Shopping Maul said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Shopping Maul said:

I remember when ANH was perceived as a SPFX milestone with breakneck pacing. Of course these days, especially to kids, it seems cheap and slow paced.

Really? It didn’t bother me or any of my friends when we were kids during the release of the PT movies. There were plenty of modern films to compete with, yet as far as we were concerned the OT was as good as it gets. (Ditto on the orig. Indy movies.)

I’m not saying everyone was/is bothered by it, but the perception obviously changed as the films and the technology evolved. In its day Star Wars felt the way something like Infinity War might feel today - just huge and fast and mind blowing. Now of course it seems so much simpler.

My two boys (ages 3 and 5) thought Star Wars was pretty huge and fast and mind blowing when I showed them 4K77 in February. Certainly quite far from simple.

Maybe it’s because at such an early age they’d seen nothing as mind blowing as Star Wars yet?

Took me a while to find this thread, but really good post by both of you.

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

Continuing a conversation in the Lucasfilm’s future thread
Dom, I disagree that Endgame is made of fan service. Granted there is a fair number, in particular, the plan to win sorta makes fan service to the past impossible. Nevertheless, look at what happens to the characters .

“What happens to the characters” is not just what constitutes fan service, in my mind. Yes the plan to win makes fan service impossible to avoid, and I don’t necessarily have a problem with that. But so much time is spent on time travel shenanigans and winks and nods without accomplishing much. One of the most pointless parts is when Cap and Tony go back further to the seventies. Basically its an extended gag, as well as a moment for Tony’s character. Except his character progresses in no way during this sequence, and nothing about it affects his conclusion (beyond the base level 'getting closure with his dad). For Cap, we get set up for his character’s conclusion, but it’s basically just a plot-based set up (this is what gives him the idea) rather than a character one (why does he choose this?).

I couldn’t disagree more that the 70s part of the film was just an extended gag. To me, hearing from his dad that he’d sacrifice everything for his kid was the ultimate thing that made Tony totally willing to sacrifice himself for Pepper and Morgan as his ultimate selfless act - he’d do anything for those 2 to live a happy life, even if it meant laying down his life and trumping every chance he had of living with the 2 loves of his life. I can totally empathize with him not wanting to do that, but I can totally see why hearing his father, a man he saw as barely more than a cold and calculist guy, saying he’d do anything for his kid, would ultimately push him over to this next step. I think that’s why we went back to the 70s. For Cap it was nice foreshadowing, because maybe casual audience members forgot about Peggy.

–Hawkeye goes on a murderous rampage, breaking their morals to try to cope with loss. They do this for an extended period and exit the movie happy but also with sins they hadn’t had before.

In terms of screen time, I’m not sure “extended period” is the right descriptor. As well, we have to understand that Hawkeye is not on the same level of belovedness as the other characters. It’s not exactly a comparable anti-fan service situation to, say, Luke in TLJ, because also Hawkeye’s turn is bad ass (even if it’s bad), and it’s at least partly a nod to the comics (Ronin). The other thing you have to consider, is the fact that basically none of the Avengers have a problem with his bloodthirst, and it ends up not being mentioned at all except on Vormir as a means to make you think that he might sacrifice himself instead of BW (otherwise the choice would have been obvious).

Yes, I feel I don’t need to add anything or counterpoint anything here. Nod to the comics + making us believe in his potential sacrifice.

–Thor sinks into some serious depression which takes a huge toll on them emotionally and physically. Where before this hero was the most “heroic” in Infinity War, but in Endgame they must entirely restart their hero’s journey.

Yeah Thor gets his big fan servicey moments in IW so they didn’t feel bad making him more comic relief in this one, especially since this isn’t a conclusion for him and a lot of his character growth is kicked down the road for the next movie he’ll be in.

I loved Thor in the film, and as OutboundFlight put it, his ‘rise from nothing’ character arc. The reset in his hero’s journey, from a certain point of view. And also the fact that most of the film’s themes are communicated through his mother’s conversation with him, despite the fact that his side mission was the comic relief one. Perfect balance throughout the whole sequence, IMO.

–Thanos, who has been seriously hyped up, is anticlimactically killed off in favor of a more compelling plot.

I loved that part. Then they went and brought him back, and made him half as interesting - he was a compelling villain who posed an interesting and challenging philosophical conflict for the heroes, but ultimately the stakes in the final battle end up just being “save the Earth.”

Agreed here.

–Iron Man, whom we may expect will get a “rise from nothing” character arc (that was surprisingly given to #2) becomes finally happy after the opening act. This is the sort of thing you would expect their character to end on… but instead, that character leaves their happy family to do the right thing and dies. They had everything and they lost it to save the world.

A heroic sacrifice falls squarely into the bounds of fan service if you ask me, especially when he’s literally given an “it’s okay” from his wife so leaving his family behind doesn’t seem all that tragic.

Tony’s death really bothers me if I’m being honest. It’s good that we’re talking about TLJ as well because I found Luke’s death to be a great point of comparison. Their deaths are essentially the same right? They pull one last powerful trick to save the day, but it costs them their lives. Here’s the big difference. We know that both Tony and Luke are the types of guys who’d sacrifice themselves to save someone else. That’s not anything new, we’ve seen that before (Avengers 1 and ROTJ). So how do you make this feel like a poignant and satisfying conclusion to their story? You add a complication. At the start of TLJ, Luke is done being a Jedi, has cut himself off from the Force, and refuses to help. In Endgame, they actually do give Tony the complication - he has a family now, a reason to not sacrifice himself. But whereas every single scene Luke has in TLJ is building up to the moment where he makes the choice to save the Resistance, in Endgame, all we get are couple short scenes at the end of the first act where Tony decides merely to risk his life and the life of his family. Him coming to the decision to actually sacrifice himself and leave his family behind isn’t dramatized anywhere in the film.

I believe I tried to counterpoint this earlier in this post but I’ll try again, going a bit more in-depth. Tony at the start of the film was given everything, as opposed to the rest of the world. In a way he had gone back to being very selfish, with a barrier probably more difficult to break (or at least as difficult) as the one Luke had in TLJ. Still, selfless Tony is still inside him and he eventually figures it all out and even volunteers to help, already a heck of a risk and a reflection that his old selfless character hadn’t gone completely even if he now had something much bigger than he ever had before. So he still wasn’t ready to go all the way through, until the travel back to the 70s. The way I interpreted it was that the talk Tony had with his father is ultimately what pushed him over the edge and that’s why that sequence is so important. So all throughout the film Tony’s character progresses from selfish to selfless, one more time, and finally, closure.

The other thing that bothers me is the manner of their death. I will say when I first saw TLJ, Luke’s death left me a little cold, just because it wasn’t clear until that moment that this would kill him. But the thing that’s makes it okay is that this isn’t just Luke sacrificing himself, it’s him becoming one with the Force (the thing that’s he’s shut out for so long), which is nicely symbolic of his final trick securing his legacy as one of the greatest Jedi ever - he dies but he still lives on, in more ways than one.

For Tony, the cause of death is Infinity Gauntlet poisoning, which, unlike TLJ, is set up. But I personally find it a rather bland choice by the filmmakers. The Infinity Gauntlet gives its wielder an absolutely incredible amount of power, power no one person should have. Thanos fancies himself some sort of god, and believes he has a right to this power. But the power of the Gauntlet is only considered dangerous on a physical level in Endgame. First they have Hulk do it because he can withstand the gamma, and it feels like a nice moment for him because he’s struggled with gamma for so long. But that’s merely an external conflict. There’s a potential here for some challenging inner turmoil. What if Bruce didn’t think he could handle the responsibly and he had to grow towards it? On the flip side, for Tony, he’s being trying and failing for so long now to put “a suit of armor around the world.” The Gauntlet would give him the ability to finally succeed at this mission. But of course it’s always been a dangerous mission, and one that’s tapped into dark aspects of Tony’s personality. Having all the stones could have provided Tony with the ultimate internal conflict, and deciding to do the right thing and give them up would have been (in my opinion) the perfect climactic decision for his character to make. But maybe that’s just me.

“deciding to do the right thing and give them up would hae been (in my opinion) the perfect climatic decision for his character to make.”

Well, he had overcome those demons a while ago, hadn’t he? Sure at the beginning when he was thin and probably suffering with PTSD not to mention depression he brought it back up, but I don’t think he meant it at all, and when he’s healthy and happy and OK again he never once mentions anything of the sort. I can see what you’re saying and yes that would’ve been pretty cool, but at the moment of his sacrifice he was at absolute peace and had already overcome every internal obstacle and conflict that had been posed to him throughout all films.

I can totally see what you’re saying and I get it and would’ve been really smart and cool, but I’m very satisfied with what actually was in the movie. I feel like that was Age of Ultron’s conflict, and that only came back in his weakest inner moment - right after getting beat up pretty bad and almost dying in space. Once again, at the time of his sacrifice, he was at absolute peace and at his strongest inside.

Granted two of the six avengers manage to get the happy ending they deserved and one gets to have a glorious moment out. But the other three and our purple friend are intentionally broken and rebuilt for the movie. But the fans still enjoyed the movie- suggesting “subverting expectations” can be done in a way that both surprises and pleases the fans. As I am sure many who enjoyed TLJ already knew.

I’ll save my problems with how the other three are handled for another day. I’ll just end with this: I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with fan service, and I think there’s certainly some entertainment value to be had from it, which is not nothing. My problem is only when the fan service gets in the way of the story; in Endgame, I’d say specifically where I take issue is the extended time travel shenanigans, which puts a few (not all) of the character arcs on the back burner for the purpose of a good time, and especially the final battle, which is basically pure spectacle that overshadows any potential for inner character conflict or deeper philosophical/thematic conflict and comes down to a very base level all of us vs. all of them, with the stakes being merely ‘win or lose.’

While I agree with you here, I think the way the Russos executed it was good enough to make me buy that all the inner and philosophical/thematic conflict had been resolved by then.

Yes, right after the chase scene we still see Obi-Wan with Anakin’s lightsaber. While it’s very brief, I think some people will notice. So if V6 eventually does happen, if the lightsaber could be painted out from Obi-Wan’s hand, that’d be great.

Another small thing I feel I should point out in the wake of V6 talks and whatnot, is to ask if the audio transition from the first Anakin/Padmé kiss to Kamino could be smoothed out a bit more. Maybe extend the shot a little bit so that the music can come to its original, more natural abrupt ending?

No big deal for either of these, but it’d be cool if those two small things could be improved nonetheless.

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

Cthulhunicron said:

Buzzfeed just reported that a script has been completed for a KOTOR movie.

Don’t trust Buzzfeed.

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

Omni said:

OutboundFlight said:

How so?

I think there’d be too many expectations from a lot of people that’d potentially ruin the films whichever way they go.

I’d be all in for more personal stories set during the Clone War, I think it’d really do wonders for that time period. We get some of it from the TV shows, but nothing actually good.

But yeah if they want to stay away from the main saga at all costs I think the old republic era is definitely the most logical pick. I really don’t want it to be a Jedi story though, I think it’d be cool to see more Rogue One-like films.

You say there’d be too many expectations, but the Clone Wars has an even greater chance of “offending” people as it is directly connected to the films. And while I love the era there are many OT fans who don’t want to return to the PT, and I respect that… TOR is a fresh start for everyone.

I think about it like the MCU. You have a ton of comics/books/games on the era, and the producers are now free to tell their own story. Most complaints regarding the ST from fans has been towards inconsistent writing (agree or disagree). But by adapting characters you would be more in an MCU position.

Man, the MCU is a lot of things but I don’t think I would ever say that it has “consistent writing.” The less SW can be like the MCU the better honestly (and I love the MCU).

Well, one thing you have to admit is how happy and united the fandom is. A consistent vision is my stab at the answer to that. While any piece of new SW material will divide people. I was convinced Endgame would divide people for providing a definitive ending… but that’s not the case.

I couldn’t care less whether the fandom is divided or not. I care about the quality of the movie. People love Endgame but that’s because they created the film in such a way that their main goal was fan service/not making fans mad. I think that’s a poor way to approach a film when it’s at the expense of the story (which I’d argue is the case with that film). But anyway, fans don’t care and eat it up. That’s why it’s well received, not because the MCU has a “consistent vision” which is a claim that has no basis in reality.

The big reason Endgame worked for me is that most of the characters got resonant, consistent conclusions to their arcs. I guess that could be called fanservice, since it’s something that fans of the characters wanted to see. This is in Stark contrast to, for example, the final season of Game of Thrones. Since the showrunners were supposedly working off of the author’s own notes I can only assume that the story beats were what Martin intended when he handed them off, but the rushed execution resulted in character arcs which became incoherent or dropped entirely by the end of the show. It’s the case of story over character, and it is much worse than the Endgame approach of character over story. I think the ST so far also has this problem (with TLJ being the worst offender so far) to the point that almost every major character is uncoupled from their defining flaw or trauma when it is convenient to the story.

When I say Endgame priotized fan service over story, understand that I consider character to be at least half of what makes a story. I would actually say Thrones is a perfect comparison to Endgame, where the conclusions make sense for the characters in a broad sense but none of the legwork is put in to make them feel earned or satisfying. The only glaring difference being that the MCU has never been all that invested in consistent and clear character development, whereas Thrones has always been very granular and gradual in that regard so descending into mostly spectacle only ends up feeling wrong for one of them (the other difference being that the MCU conclusions are crowd pleasing).

I’d say they both make TLJ seem like a masterpiece of character work in comparison (which is not necessarily something I would call it). TLJ is the only of the three that actually seems to take any interest in putting time into coherent character progression.

Agreed. TLJ’s fatal flaw to me is that I can’t, no matter how hard I try, get behind Rey. It’s of course due to her very unearned and unbelieavable force powers, IMO. It’s the only major problem I have with the movie - which I’ve come to the conclusion is the consequence of two things: the lack of a time gap between the TLJ and TFA (RIP suspension of disbelief that’d always been there for the saga to make us believe in off-screen progress throughout the years) and TFA’s portrayal of her. Sure TLJ took it even further, but it all started in TFA.

Still, her character progresses. One thing I’d understand people criticizing TLJ on is that it re-utilizes some of the very same arcs from TFA. Rey’s works very well, especially due to so little time having passed between the two films and the expansion on the ‘belonging’ aspect of her character. Finn’s character arc, for me, works well too. In TFA, he grew from running away to fighting for something bigger than himself - his friends. In TLJ, he goes from fighting for something bigger than himself but still something that mattered ‘only’ to him to fighting for something bigger than every one person can be - a cause. Poe’s arc in this movie is wonderful, and it’s the only part of the film where I don’t understand so many anger towards. I mean sure you can pick it apart, and criticize military strategy or whatever, but… ah whatever. Rose had a very nice character arc as well, going from the naive girl that believes in the black and white world to someone that finally sees grey and the reality and sadness of war, understands the cost and yet still believes in good. Unfortunately her character is part of a scene I dislike very much (“Not fighting what we hate - saving what we love”.) due to me believing Finn would’ve been able to take down the cannon while sacrificing himself and fulfilling his character arc, but oh well. He does have to be alive for the sequel, I guess.

Luke’s character arc in the film is definitely the cherry on top. I’m not really a fan of how it was set up, and I don’t fully buy what happened between him and Ben, but Hamill’s acting sells it enough for me to be able to fully enjoy the deconstruction of his character to his very core and the arc’s eventual fulfillment, in the most beautiful shot of the film.

Despite TLJ being far from a favorite of mine, I do not see where in the film do any characters “lack their defining flaw because plot”. I’d love to hear you expand on that, NeverarGreat. I don’t watch GOT so I can’t talk about that, but I saw Endgame as the ‘perfect’ ending to every one of the characters, Tony being the highlight due to being the best developed MCU character by a country mile. Cap also had a great sendoff and I quite liked Thor in the film, except for how some of the humor around him worked and all that. The other characters aren’t really worth mentioning I don’t think, because nothing really big happens to them. Maybe Black Widow but she didn’t really change that much in spite of everything that happened.

Edit: I probably derailed the thread pretty bad. Sorry OP and mods.

Octorox said:

There’s also the l8wrtr order:

[Anakin and Obi-Wan make up and Obi-Wan boards the Star Destroyer] > [Anakin and Padmé in apartment] > [Obi-Wan banters with Cody and takes off in his Fighter] > [Sunset Palpatine office scene] > [Obi-Wan arrives on Utapau]

It sounds like it would be jarring but it actually works quite well in his edit.

+1 for this. It’s at least worth a shot, IMO.

I’m a fan of the recurring TLJ/ST debates, when there’s a relevant topic being discussed. This issue some take with the bombs is just so minor and insignificant that it’s a bit insane that so many people talk about it as much as they do and at the lengths they do.

Telion said:

coupled with the blue/cyan tint present in all the special edition blu-rays

This isn’t completely true. Return of the Jedi’s blu-ray has actually much less blue than the original version did in several scenes, but in most shots yes, there’s a blue tint over the film.

This is kind of crazy to me. There are so many fair points to complain and discuss about on TLJ and people choose to stress over bombs? It’s not even a good nitpick. It’s so, for the lack of a better word, and apologies in advance if offending anyone, stupid. I don’t know what went through those people’s heads when watching the movie but I’m glad it didn’t happen in mine.

Jesta’ said:

adywan said:

Jesta’ said:

How would you people feel if Disney released the OOT in glorious 4K and then Lucas bought back the franchise and made a proper Sequel Trilogy?

There already is a proper sequel trilogy.

Sort of. Star Wars isn’t really Star Wars without George at the helm IMHO

That’s an interesting discussion. I kimd of agree, but for example:

I notice Harley Quinn is your avatar here. I take it you’re a Batman fan, right? So, is Batman really Batman without Bob Kane and Bill Finger? Is Paul Dini eligible to write Batman stories and whatnot? So Rian Johnson should be eligible to write a Star Wars film, no?

Man I haven’t watched TFA in 3 years but I’m really looking forward to watching your version! 😄

Hal 9000 said:

Has anyone heard anything about the Skymaster version lately, or know where I can seek out news? I’m hoping to scope it out for my ANH project that’s nearly finished.

the 4K77 forums.