Oldfan

Josh said:

Fantastic Work Ady, Yoda seems much more lifelike, In fact it's better than the PT. Also thumbs up on the color correction. (Here is the Youtube link... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRH1yzUCSFg

About this "AT-AT problem", did you ever complain before, did you even notice or care, way should you now.  For me, I never questioned the number of AT-At's. It just was. I guess I don't have any more to say that has'nt (oops) already been said.

After all, are crafter is Adywan.

My feeling on the AT-AT debate is not so much about whether or not any of us complained about how the scene was before. I never complained about the original Death Star reveal in A New Hope, or how R2-D2's light was only 1 color, or that the final battle didn't show Yavin in the background, etc., etc.

But looking at Revisited now, I absolutely love the changes he made, and I think we can all agree that the changes Adywan made to the Death Star battle, and the film as a whole, not only fixed a multitude of continuity errors, but also enhanced the viewing experience to the point where it felt as it did the first time we saw Star Wars. Continuity changes aside, most of the changes and additional shots added to the Death Star battle were not absolutely necessary, but sure did improve upon what was already there, and made the entire battle more intense because of it.

I believe the same holds true for the Hoth battle. I don't think the film would be hurt at all if Adywan decides to leave the number of AT-ATs to the original 5. However, I also feel that additional AT-ATs could certainly enhance the battle, and it does make sense to me that the Empire would send more than 5 walkers, especially since Vader knew that the Rebels were already aware of the Empire's arrival thanks to Admiral Ozzel bringing the fleet out of hyperspace too close to Hoth. It seems to me that after sending probe droids and Star Destroyers all over the galaxy searching for the Rebels, and now after finding them they are already alerted to their sneak attack, the Empire would cetainly take no chances, and hit them full force. I would certainly think that they would send more than 5 AT-ATs to do the job.

As far as the new clip of Yoda, I think it looks great. The mouth moves very realistically to me. The movements seem subtle, but make a difference. I think that this could work out well, because you get the best of both worlds: because Yoda is a puppet in TESB, he already looks very good. With some minor facial tweaks, I think that it could truly bring him to life. I agree that some minor work with the eyes could also help, if Adywan decides to go this route with Yoda.

maurice2029 said:

Oldfan said:

I, too, would love to see this posted. However, with the recent crackdown at fanedit.org due to their links, I'm not sure exactly how this could be posted on rapidshare or similiar sites, as the links could get originaltrilogy in trouble like fanedit. Perhaps if they were posted to the newsgroups like Adywan does?

 

 Let me point you in the right direction: linktalk

Thanks. I don't know how that one slipped by me all this time.

I, too, would love to see this posted. However, with the recent crackdown at fanedit.org due to their links, I'm not sure exactly how this could be posted on rapidshare or similiar sites, as the links could get originaltrilogy in trouble like fanedit. Perhaps if they were posted to the newsgroups like Adywan does?

Great news about the color correction. Now the real fun begins!

Does anybody know where on the supermancinema site this KCOP edit is being discussed? I can't seem to find anything mentioned involving Alex S working on a restored version. Also, how is this project coming? Looking forward to seeing all these lost scenes!

Adywan, adding an alternate audio track with the alternate music cues is very awesome news. My level of anticipation has just jumped up another notch!

I will miss the spinning starfield, but Adywan has said that he is planning a different fx shot in its place, so I'm sure it will work out fine.

Adywan, I had a question for you. I'm pretty sure you mentioned a while back that you won't be altering the music in Empire. I would agree with you there that the music was a masterpiece, and does not require any work. However, I have just finished watching the Editdroid disc 4 you posted, and I was very intrigued with the alternate audio cues that were included as extras. For those that have not seen this disc, there is almost an hour worth of scenes from the original trilogy featuring the original music cues that were composed for the scenes. As it said on the disc, for various reasons, like pacing, editing decisions, or simply mood, several music cues were changed, deleted, or trimmed in various scenes. There were 17 scenes featured from Empire, and the disc showed the restored scenes, as best as possible, with the original music, along with the final theatrical version for comparison. It was quite interesting to hear the music that we are all familiar with actually in the scenes they were recorded for. I'd imagine that you wouldn't want to restore all of that music, as it was changed for a reason. But I wondered if you would be interested in taking a look at those scenes, just in case something jumped out at you. I figured that since this was music composed for the film, it would entirely fit in, and I especially liked "Imperial Fleet", the original Imperial March intro when you first see Darth Vader (the version that was actually used was composed as a "concert rendition", only to be heard on the official soundtrack album). I also loved a few of the scenes that originally erupted in various versions of the Imperial March during transitions to other scenes, like "Fleet Transition" and "Needa/Piggyback". We have all heard these bits for ages on the soundtracks, but to hear it in the film is amazing.

I'm not sure if it is possible to restore some of these without altering the scenes, but there are a few cues that I'm pretty sure you could fit right back in, if you wanted to. Just a thought that ocurred to me while watching the scenes.

I thought it played very well, DarthStewie. The sequence definitely works, imo. The only thing I found a bit jarring is the new transition from the atmosphere to the surface of Hoth. Though it looks really good, somehow it seems out of place, perhaps because I'm not used to seeing a transition within the very first moments of a Star Wars film. Love how the probe droid shows itself after Luke is dragged away by the Wampa.

Part of me just wants to keep out of this completely, and not say anything, but I do enjoy taking part in this forum, even if I am quiet much of the time, and I try my best to keep up with it, even if I do fall behind now and then. I just can't believe the harsh criticisms and language going back and forth here lately. I have been following the whole Kurgan blue-Tie_Fighter debate, and although I may not agree with his tactics, I also do not agree with how it has been handled, and I do agree with much of what he said in his above post. This is indeed an open forum, which Adywan has allowed us to use to share and bounce ideas off each other, because it is obvious that Adywan is interested in hearing our ideas and feedback. Of course, in the end, it is Adywan's edit, and I'm pretty sure we are all confident that he will again astound us with his next chapter in the Revisited saga.  But that doesn't mean that we can't voice our concerns and opinions about the ideas being brought up in here. I, like many others here, have ideas which would be nice to see Adywan take into consideration. And what isn't a big deal to one person might be very important to somebody else. If Adywan states matter-of-factly that a certain idea will not come to fruition, then so be it, and once that has been said, I don't think it is wise to continue to badger him about it. It is his project. But if somebody here in the forum wants to diplomatically discuss certain ideas with other members of the forum, I don't think it is right that anybody should verbally attack members just because they are tired of hearing about it.

Now, again, it was obvious that Kurgan was starting to get on Adywans nerves, and there's a point when it should stop. But please try to remember that we are all fans of not only the original trilogy, but especially Adywan's treatment of it, and I am rather turned off lately at the hostility being displayed here. We are all here for the same thing, people. There are lots of newcomers lately, and they may not yet have a feel for when "enough is enough", as some of the senior members do. I hope everybody here remembers that the next time they see a post they don't like. There are obviously times when something is so negative, and so un-called for, that somebody should say something. But the angry, snappy, profanity-laden posts that have been appearing here lately is not being constructive in the least. This project is still over a year away. There's PLENTY of time to spend discussing all kinds of little details and big details, and if something drags on a bit longer than some would like, ignore it, and it will go away soon enough. Let's all try to keep this forum a friendly and welcoming place for all.

Monroville, that is a link to an nzb file, which contains the links to the files stored in the newgroup. However, you need to actually have access to newsgroups, which usually means paying for a premium service. You also need a newsgroup program. Do some reading on how the newsgroups work on slyck.com if you would like to know more. It explains how this works very well. It seems complicated at first, and you may not want to put the money or effort into it. But they are there on the newsgroups for the taking, with a little effort.

Monroville, as far as I know, the Editdroid set is not available on torrents at the moment. They probably were at some point, but I have looked before, and couldn't find them. I myself have not posted a torrent. Right now they are available through the newsgroups on alt.binaries.starwars , thanks to Adywan.

I don't doubt your explanation. Most likely, Lucas made the decision due to the contrasts in color. But that does make me question the AT-ATs' laser color, because that trailer proves that he himself intended to give the AT-ATs green lasers. This means that the correct and appropriate color was green, but was changed only as a cosmetic decision, with the thinking that red would stand out better on Hoth. There will certainly be people on both ends of the spectrum here, as far as which looks better, but the bottom line is that it was supposed to be green, and was changed later in production due to color contrasts with the snow/sky. Based on that, I feel that the lasers could certainly be changed to green without upsetting any continuity. I understand that Adywan is against this, so I won't be mentioning this again, but my feeling is that if Lucas had planned for green lasers, and only changed them because of how they looked against the sky, then this whole suggestion of changing them back to green was certainly not out of the realm of possibility. Myself, I thought they really jumped out in the trailer, but then I didn't really have a problem with Luke's blue lightsaber on tatooine, either. I think Lucas was more concerned about those contrasts than he needed to be.

First off, I'd like to offer my sympathy to Adywan for his recent loss. I've been so busy lately, I've fallen behind in keeping up here. I'm glad to see you're back at work, now. I know that work can definitely take the mind away from sorrow, at least temporarily.

This latest debate involving the tie fighters is interesting. Funny how I guess I've never noticed the difference before. Now of course, it's something I can't not see if I tried.

I wanted to share a thought I had earlier today after I watched some old trailers from the Editdroid 4-disc extras, which Adywan has posted to a.b.starwars. I almost hate to bring it back up, as it involves the green AT-AT laser debate, but this really struck me as a Holy S__t moment, so I wanted to share it here and hopefully get an explanation. I was watching disc 3 of the Editdroid extras, which contains many different trailers for the original trilogy. Suddenly, as I was watching the german trailer for The Empire Strikes Back, my jaw dropped. There were a few seconds of footage of the Hoth battle, and the AT-ATs were firing green lasers. I kid you not. There was the shot when some blasts hit a Rebel turret, and other blasts zip by, and they were all green. Then, when you first see the front AT-ATs, they are firing green lasers also. The Rebels were still firing red lasers, but the Empire was firing green. At first, I thought I was just seeing things, so I went back, and stepped though the shots, frame-by-frame. Pure green lasers. But how could this be? Then I watched the first USA full trailer, which must be rare, as it appeared to come from 8mm or 16mm, complete with severe flicker, and although the color was faded very badly on this trailer, it also featured the green lasers, as this was the same trailer as the German trailer, only in English.

If anybody has this set (and if you don't, here's your chance to get them--it is an amazing set--thanks, Adywan), please check it out. Does anybody know anything about this. As it was an early trailer, a year before its release, I wonder if they did indeed plan initially to give the AT-ATs green lasers, then changed their mind during the production. I know this topic was already beaten to the ground, but I thought this deserved to be mentioned, at the very least to hopefully hear an explanation. I also noticed a Revenge Of The Jedi trailer which featured Luke swinging a blue lightsaber on the Sail Barge, not green. Interesting...

I do not wish to annoy anybody here, but I just wanted to add my own 2 cents about the green laser topic. I personally feel that the green lasers, from the example above, look mighty impressive, and if it was just for show, I would say it's not necessary. But I do feel that continuity-wise, it would fit in just fine. I have never really liked the red lasers from the AT-ATs, or the AT-STs, but have accepted them long ago because that is what we were given. In general, I have always associated the Empire with the green lasers, because for the most part, that's what their ships fire. Now, I also feel that the red lasers do not necessarily break continuity, so I don't think it would hurt the series either way. But my own feeling is that since it was mentioned that green lasers wouldn't look good against the backdrop of hoth, I have to say that to me, they really do stand out very well. And since I believe Adywan is rotoscoping all the laser fire and lightsabers anyways, like in ANH:Revisited, I imagine that it wouldn't make much of a difference, effort-wise, whether he redid the laser fire in red, or switched to green. Either way, he's re-doing the lasers. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Anyways, that's just my own opinion. I understand that Adywan is against the idea, and I respect his vision. He has done wonders with ANH:Revisited, and I'm certain that when this project is released, it will once again blow away what Lucasfilm gave us for a special edition.

It would certainly be easier to just buy the CD, but it is expensive. There is one copy currently available on Ebay, and it's price is $39.99. I just can't afford that right now.  It may not seem like a lot for some people, but for me, that's too much for a single cd.

Well, when you put it like that, it makes sense. Indeed, that is how Adywan did it. I'll certainly be looking forward to it! Glad to hear a DVD will happen eventually. Thanks for replying.

I have downloaded a single track from itunes, "Durant Is Dead", as this one has always sounded quite squelchy and tinny on the LP. I will admit it does sound very good. I would say it does sound better than the LP, but it is an m4P, DRM protected, and any conversion would result in further quality loss. I have also found another blog with the score available for download. If anybody wants to take a look, here it is:

http://chiefdundee.blogspot.com/2007/09/black-hole-john-barry.html

The front and rear covers are not from the Mask release, as I have seen those covers, so I don't know what this source is. It sounds flawless, without a single crackle or pop. I doubt it was from the LP. "Durant Is Dead" sounded virtually identical to the itunes track. It could be that it was converted from the itunes tracks, or maybe it is indeed the Mask release, as it does contain the additional suite that is unavailable on the itunes release. Very odd...

I have also found the REAL Mask release for download, available on www.gomusic.ru, which seems to be a Russian music site. From what I can gather, it offers popular and also rare bootlegs for download, for about 15 cents per song. It seems to be up for debate whether or not is is legal in the US, but many people have used them, and not had any problems. Myself, I doubt the legality of it. You have to load your "wallet" with a minimum of $10, from your credit card, then the songs get deducted from that. I'd love to hear the Mask release (it's in 256kbps mp3, DRM free), but I don't like the idea of going through them to get it.

A review I found on the Mask release commented on the quality:

"The sound quality is surprisingly good, but Mask's CD is filled out to capacity with shameless lifts from Kunzel, Star Crash, Barry's 'Space March', and even Arnold's 'Shaken and Stirred' version."

That's all I've got for now.

I, too, would love to see this posted as a DVD, either through a torrent, or preferably Rapidshare. Divx files look terrible on my TV. Would sure love to see this on my tv for nostalgia's sake, after all these years. I remember seeing this version on TV long ago.

It's great to hear that it will finally get a release, as I have been looking forward to this for a while. I was very impressed with your early teasers, and I can't wait to see it. Is there no chance for you to release it in just a basic, no-frills DVD, even just the DVD files with no menu, for quality sake? I'm really not a huge divx fan, myself, and divx movies always look terrible when I play them on my TV. Of course, the decision is yours, and either way, I'll be glad to see this, but I think this project deserves DVD quality, even if just a barebones one, just so people can really enjoy all the hard work that has gone into this. Please give this some consideration, and thanks either way for giving us the update!

I found a couple references to the score on a couple blogs. Here is a quote from somebody regarding the itunes release:

In searching for the soundtrack by John Barry, I was led to Wikipedia which states the soundtrack is available on iTunes. So, needless to say, I finally have a clean copy of the entire soundtrack! I still have my pristine LP from 1979, but the sound is much improved on the new downloads.

Here's another quote, this one about the Mask release:

"The Black Hole" is available on an Italian import (the label is "Mask," I'm not sure this isn't a boot), with FANTASTIC sound (it's better than the LP, believe it or not). It's coupled with "Howard the Duck" and a few other tracks. There is also a suite from "The Black Hole" that adds no additional score (although it has different variations on the main theme).

I may indeed check out a single track from itunes, to compare to the LP. I've never used itunes before; from what I've read elsewhere, 128kbps acc is roughly equal to 192kbps mp3, but I don't know how accurate that is. Even if it's true, that's pretty terrible as far as it being the best source available. Why remaster the music and then compress it down again just for itunes? At least if it had been released to itunes as 256kbps, as some music is now getting, that would be something. And that still doesn't solve the biggest problem: how do we get clean tracks of the missing music?

My personal feeling on the Wampa scene is that the SE footage should remain. I do feel as though there should be some editing done to the scene, but I think that the new scenes with the Wampa actually look good. So many of the CGI creatures in the new trilogy look terribly fake. The Wampa actually looks frightening, especially seeing it covered in blood and eating. In general, I am not a fan of most of the new footage that Lucas added, but the Wampa was one scene that I enjoyed seeing. I always thought the original shot of the Wampa's hand hitting Luke looked phony, so there is certainly room for improvement, but I always wanted to see more of the Wampa. It would be a shame to see it go.

Of course, I believe Adywan will end up making the right choice, but I do hope some of the new Wampa shots remain.

Agreed - that is certainly the largest obstacle. We have virtually nothing to get this missing music from, other than the DVD itself. I wonder if isolating certain surround channels from the DVD would help to filter out the sound effects. My guess would be not so much, because even though the speech may be primarily in the front speaker, the sound effects are spread across all the channels in the 5.1 surround mix, making the process of filtering out the sound effects very difficult, if not impossible. I have the record you linked to, and that may possible contribute bits of the music, as it contains 45 minutes of music and dialog straight from the movie, but it probably doesn't contain the full length music cues that the film contains, being a shortened version of the film.

I found the links you mentioned through Google, roycommi. This blog links to a set of 2 zip files, both rips from the DVD. One zip contains a number of tracks with the vocals removed, again leaving the sound effects, like the version I found. The other zip contains the same tracks except unedited. Unfortunately, they are all 128kbs mp3s, so the quality leaves alot to be desired. Still, it would allow some folks here to check the music out if they are not familiar with it, and discover what a beautiful soundtrack it really is. Here is the link to that blog:

http://soundtrackfan.com/blog/?p=88#more-88

Note that this link does not include the officially released tracks, only DVD rips. Roycommi, you could try mediafire to upload your compiliation of tracks, that is where these zips are located, and it looks like you can upload for free, without signing up for an account. It took just over 30 seconds for me to download them.

So, there does seem to be some interest in this. Now we need somebody who can actually pull it off. It looks like it won't be easy to remove the sound effects, as apparently others have tried, and failed. I'd bet that focuspuller might have some luck, as his Blade Runner project seems massive in scope, but he is obviously very busy with that project. Thanks for finding those links, roycommi.

Before I begin, I would like to say this up front: I would not be the one undertaking this project, although if I could help out in any way, I will. I really don't have the skill or experience required to pull this off. I am simply throwing this out there to see if anybody would be willing to tackle this idea.

The idea is similiar to the Blade Runner - Complete Music Collection project, though not nearly as massive in scope. I have always been a fan of John Barry's work, and I feel that his score for Disney's The Black Hole is exceptional. Sadly, the only official release it has ever been given was back during its original release in 1979, on vinyl. Worst still, it was only a single LP release, as was often the case back then, and much of the score was missing. To this day, the music cannot be officially purchased outside of an LP, a bootleg CD, or on Itunes in 128kbs acc. For some back information, here is an official statement regarding the Itunes release last January, from the Disney Music Discussion Forum on MagicMusic.net:

"JAN 16 2007

1. The Black Hole Soundtrack  - NOT PREVIOUSLY AVAILABLE

As before, all masters have been transferred and restored at 24bit / 96kHz.

Now before someone cries foul, I will explain the status of “The Black Hole Soundtrack”. Though this was the first digitally recorded soundtrack, the digital technology of 1979 is not compatible with digital technology of today (or even 1982 when CD’s were introduced). This soundtrack was recorded with 4bit resolution at 32kHz sampling, thus making a pure digital release not only impossible, but any attempt to upsample or convert them would result in a recording far worse than the analog conversion that was done at the time. The reason it has taken me so long to get this soundtrack re-released is that I wanted to make absolutely sure that there was no way I could use the original digital recordings. I also couldn’t include more of John Barry’s score than was originally released – as the album, as it stands, is all that was legally cleared for release. I did, however, hunt down the original analog transfer from 1979, digitally transferred and restored at 24/96 and re-created the album’s original content. I know some of you more ‘passionate’ will still be disappointed, but there is nothing more anyone could do. Still, even at the iTunes 128kbs compression, the album has never sounded better!"

Also, this is a word from The Black Hole FAQ, which is outdated by several years, but still remains accurate in regards to this music:

Is there a soundtrack available for the film?

The only official release of John Barry's soundtrack for the film was the original LP, released in 1979 on Buena Vista Records (cat. #5008). It contains most of the music used in the film.

Here's the tracklist (with track times):

For some more information on the soundtrack we go to a post from Marc St. Stephen:

The soundtrack to The Black Hole, by John Barry, was originally released on LP by Disney (Buena Vista Records). The LP contains just over 30 minutes of music and is of fair/poor sound quality. It has been out of print for quite a while now, but copies both sealed and unsealed are still floating around ...

Based on what I learned from Lucas Kendall (who publishes Film Score Monthly) Disney is sitting on the rights and master tapes to The Black Hole and will not reissue it on CD or allow anyone else to do so unless someone throws a great wad of money in their face and/or somehow proves to them beyond a shadow of a doubt that the re-release of The Black Hole will make tons of money for Disney.

Bootleg CD's
There have been two major bootleg releases of the film's soundtrack. The first bootleg release was paired with the Barry's score for "The Last Valley" - both of which are presented in MONO on this CD. The second bootleg of the soundtrack was put out by an Italian bootleg label, Mask, in July 1999. They paired "The Black Hole" with Barry's soundtrack to "Howard The Duck," and includes as bonus tracks "Star Crash" and "You Only Live Twice." The quality of the Mask release is unknown at this time.

I have also seen some small runs of CD-R's mastered from vinyl copies of the album - naturally, quality varies with the expertise behind the mastering of the individual CD-R's. The same proviso also applies to the bootleg CD's, as it is incredibly unlikely the bootleggers would have access to anything better than vinyl copies of the score.

I got this idea after I stumbled onto an "extended" Black Hole soundtrack that somebody posted on a blog recently. It was basically just a rip of the LP, but the poster also included 10 tracks that he ripped straight off the DVD. He obviously applied a basic filter to remove the speech, but it left the sound effects intact, as well as some echo from the speech in the background. It was rather crude, but reminded me how much music wasn't included on the official releases. Just those 10 short tracks added up to about 14 minutes of music. I truly feel that this score is deserving of a full release, and since that is obviously not going to happen, I was hoping somebody here with more talent than I have would be willing to take this project on. It would most likely involve ripping the DVD audio, and applying advanced filtering to extract just the music, without sound effects and speech, as there is no other way to obtain the missing music. I have the 10 tracks of additional music that were posted, if that would help somebody with knowing what music needs to be done. Luckily, almost all of the unreleased music is contained in these 10 tracks. I also have a very nice rip of the LP in 320kbps mp3, which was cleaned up by somebody very nicely. I don't know if it would be better to get the officially released tracks from the LP or from Itunes. I realize that the Itunes release is compressed, but if the LP doesn't sound so great, which is worse?

So, does anybody think this is something to pursue? Again, the fact that there isn't too many tracks to do means it probably wouldn't be that big of a project, if it turned out that somebody could successfully remove the sound effects and speech. But that missing music is, in my opinion, hauntingly beautiful, and it is such a shame to see it disappear. If Disney had at least offered a music-only track on the DVD, it would have made this so much easier, but alas, they did not. I am curious what others think about this. Regardless of how anybody feels about the film itself, John Barry's score for the film deserves far better than a partial release to Itunes in 128kbs acc. Thanks for reading this very long post, and please voice your opinions, as I would really like to hear what people think about this.

This sounds interesting, but am I missing something? I went to fanedit.org, and it wasn't there.