Nick66

I have both the HDTV broadcast and BD of Raiders, and I have to say I much prefer the warm tones of the BD...though I'll concede that the digital grading on the BD is pretty glaring, and this certainly is not what the film looked like theatrically. Of course, both are improvements over the horrid DVD.

I never minded either the cobra reflection or jeep "flaws", but then again I never minded the "fixes" either, I think these kind of minor fixes are fine, I'm not THAT much of a purist.  I don't mind cleaning up things like matte lines either.  I do think it's interesting that Spielberg chose to leave one of the fixes in there but undid the other. 

AntcuFaalb said:

Nick66 said:

And the black bars you recall during the throne room scene could have still been a P&S version.  Unless I'm mistaken (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am), some of the old P&S videocassettes switched to "widescreen" in the final moments of the film, just before the credits.  I once knew the technical reason for this, but I've forgotten it. Though I do remember something like that happening in many old VHS films, not just SW.

The HBO custom pan&scan does this, IIRC.

Yeah, and it may be an old HBO broadcast that I'm remembering seeing.

chyron8472 said:

1978.

Believe it or not, my earliest memories of Star Wars are listening to the Return of the Jedi Read-Along Book and Tape. :)

 

 

I can't recall when I first watched the movies. I do, however, remember that my parents must have had a pirate copy of "Star Wars" (which I think might have been widescreen) because I can distinctly recall the final shot of the throne room and the thought that the black bars were annoying and stupid (hey, I was a kid and it wasn't explained why they were there). So, obviously I didn't watch it.

But I do remember when my parents gave me the "Faces" VHS box set. I think it was for my birthday.

 

Actually, I used to love the "Story of Star Wars" LP myself. :)

And the black bars you recall during the throne room scene could have still been a P&S version.  Unless I'm mistaken (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am), some of the old P&S videocassettes switched to "widescreen" in the final moments of the film, just before the credits.  I once knew the technical reason for this, but I've forgotten it. Though I do remember something like that happening in many old VHS films, not just SW.

AntcuFaalb said:

People didn't pass-up Prometheus because of this blunder: http://faildesk.net/2012/06/12/prometheus-runs-on-windows-7/

They passed-up Prometheus because it's a bad movie.

 

Didn't Prometheus make something like 400m?  Sounds to me like a lot of people didn't pass.

I mean, the movie was a disappointment to be sure, but it wasn't that bad.

AntcuFaalb said:

Nick66 said:

Just curious, does anyone know if there's been an attempt to colour correct the awful green tint on the Fellowship of the Ring Extended BD?  I've been looking for something like this for a while now.

From our own You_Too: http://fotrfix.blog.com/

Thanks!  But that's way to complicated for me. :)

If anyone has a link where I can get a CC version of this, please by all means PM me...with much gratitude.

Just curious, does anyone know if there's been an attempt to colour correct the awful green tint on the Fellowship of the Ring Extended BD?  I've been looking for something like this for a while now.

 

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Had the changes been made 2 or 3 years later (say, in 1979), they would have been viewed by most as creative tweaks.  The fact that they were made 20 years later is what is so unprecedented and what also makes the changes so glaringly out of place.

 

Backlight said:

 

I understand what you're saying here, but even if the changes had been made within 2-3 years I don't think they would've been greeted all that favorably.

When Spielberg released the "Special Edition" of Close Encounters in 1980 with re-edits and added effects the response was uniformly negative. Especially when it soon became clear that the unaltered 1977 cut was gone forever.

 

When Spielberg released the "Special Edition" of Close Encounters in 1980 with re-edits and added effects the response was uniformly negative. Especially when it soon became clear that the unaltered 1977 cut was gone forever.

 

Hmmm. I'm not sure I entirely agree that the response to the SE of CE3K was "uniformly negative". This sounds like a bit of revisionist history to me.  For example, Roger Ebert, arguably the most influential movie reviewer at the time, praised the SE and called it a superior film.  And I believe you'll find that this was the general assessment of most (though not all) mainstream critics at the time. And I don't believe that it was ever "clear" (or even discussed) that the 1977 cut was "gone forever" (indeed it wasn't).

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe the SE is the best version of CE3K by a long shot (I don't like the mothership interior and prefer the 1998 cut) . As I'm sure you know Spielberg only did the mothership interior because of pressure from the studio. But keep in mind that at the time Spielberg said he wasn't happy with the 77 cut, and wanted to do a "Director's Cut", and in fact he was responsible for the edits in the 80 cut. In any event, at best, the SE is an odd curiosity, but I don't think there was a "uniformly negative" reaction it at the time, and certainly no one was worried that the original cut was gone forever. There wasn't wide-spread running around saying "Oh no, I'm never going to be able to own the 1977 cut of CE3K on VHS or Betamax!"

As far as the SW SE goes, I agree with Puggo that had Lucas made changes within 2-3 years (and he did to a certain extent) I don't believe there would have been much ado about it. Having said that, even 20 years after the fact the Star Wars SE's did not get a uniformly negative response when they came out 1997, and in fact the changes were basically regarded as creative tweaks. Much the opposite, there was quite a bit of excitement to see the films on the big screen (again or for the very first time), and most people were psyched to see the new effects. The films were generally very well received. It was only later, with the rise of DVD (and people saw how dated and out of place the new effects look), along with the ability to spread the word online, that the backlash really grew.  Remember, the initial home video release of the SE's was on VHS...a medium people could still get the films in their original versions in.  It was when Lucas refused to release the unaltered films on DVD and people realised that we'd never see the films in their original versions again (in the latest home video format) hat things went off.  

I agree that if the SW SE's came out today, knowing that the originals would never see the light of day, the backlash would be huge (as it is). But today we have the internet in a way we didn't in 1997 (and certainly 1980). Back in 1997 people couldn't easily find how much BS George's "These are the films I always wanted to make" was. Reviews of the SW and CE3K SE's back then were largely written by professional film reviewers who didn't have as much invested in these movies, not hard core genre fans who make up the bulk of online reviewers today.  Having said that, if Lucas released the OT today, with new updated effects, and "deleted" scenes, people would still flock to the theatres.  Including most people on this board.  It's the absence of the OT in an HD format that has most of us upset.

Again, just to be clear, I feel the same way about the SE's and "good-enough" George's basterdizations of his films as most on here, and I won't even watch them (thank you again, Harmy).  But, like George's SE's themselves, there is quite a bit of revisionism that tends to go on about their reception.

valinkrai said:

 I don't think I even knew the differences between the versions (Beyond Han shooting first) until they were advertising the "Limited 2006 release", and I picked up the original cut of Empire since I read time wise, the most had changed.  I honestly didn't care much about the differences, and for the most part, I still don't believe they change the films, though I love that you guys here are able to compensate for LucasFilm not giving options to those who don't think the same way as I do.

 

Hmmm.  Actually, Empire had the least number of changes in the SE's.  And you don't think the differences "change the films"?  I find it bizarre that you want to talk about the history of ILM, but don't feel that the history was compromised when a good amount of their first, and Oscar winning, effects work has been erased from history.

With all do respect, as other's pointed out, this and several of your other comments here lead me to believe that you're not particularly well qualified to speak on this subject..at least as far as Star Wars is concerned.

Harmy said:

Great :-)

Hey, how about in celebration of the troll being banned you release the full 16gb mkv of 2.5? Or even just the .m2ts file will do nicely. I'll even take a full bit rate 2.1 :)  

blowfish said:

maybe you could do something cooler like Adwyn and not just do crap that 8 people in the whole world want to see. talk about a nitch market!

Hmmmmm.  So only 8 people in the world want to see this, and yet you're on here, not to talk about wanting to see the movie, but wasting your time talking about people who want to see the movie?

So how pathetic does that make you?  You have so much time on your hands, and so little in your life, that you want to troll a forum catering to 8 people who want to see this?

You do realise you don't have to say another word and we know everything we need to about you, right? :)

Enjoy your "life".

Harmy said:

Something I definitely want is the subs and audio to be selectable through menu, because there will be so many options that selecting them through remote only might get confusing.

Sounds good...but just to be clear, the wonderful burned-in Greedo subs are staying, right?

The amazing thing about these Despecialised Editions is not that they are perfect...they're not, and never will be.  What's amazing about them is the incredible amount of care and research that has gone into every "frame"...especially the colour correction.

Let's say Disney/Lucasfilm ever did give us the an HD version of the OT...is there anyone who thinks that they'd put as much care and meticulous research into how the film looked in 1977 as is evident in this set? Does anyone think they'd consider carefully how every moment of the movie looked? Would they attempt to match the subtitles of the original release? The colours?  Would the reproduce the 1977 audio mixes? Of course they wouldn't. When, and if we ever get the OT in HD, I'm sure it will have plenty of beautiful 1080p or HD detail...maybe even a 4K scan.  But I have absolutely no doubt they'd f*ck up the colours at a minimum.  It will be a slick presentation made for contemporary tastes and sensibilities.  But it won't be any kind of preservation.

So no matter what, these DEd's are going to be a part of my HT collection for a long, long time.

lpd said:

Chaps, I think your getting the tech vs source artifacts argument upside down.

The higher the resolution dosnt make the artifacts dissapear, if there in the source you will see them and you'll actually see them more the higher the resolution you have and the bigger the screen you have.  If you have a 4K projector its up scaling everything ( there are no native 4K blu rays yet)  which inevitably introduces artifacts, however small or unnoticeable believe me they are there. Same with watching a 720p source on a 1080p display. You either have your player are your display doing the up scaling but its still up scaling. Yes the further away from the screen you sit the less you'll see I always recommend you sit at least 2 times the width of screen away from it or If you reduce the size of your screen the better the picture looks. If you still have an old crt tv which can take an hd source say via component inputs the picture looks amazing and pin sharp and not an artifact in sight. I still swear old crt tv's can beat any new lcd, plasma, dlp hands down for picture quality honestly.

The only way to watch a movie without any artifacts is to not watch it digitally at all ie: the "old way" with celluloid. Believe me I have qualifications in av and av installations and would give my left nut to have a 35mm projector set up.

 

Well of course.  It's interesting though isn't it...yes, the artifacts are there, but if you can't see them, it really doesn't matter, does it?  Either you can't see them because you're sitting far enough away from the screen, or original source is high quality enough, or your device does an amazing job of upscaling, or, more likely, your eye just isn't trained to notice most video artifacting.  It's like high bit rate lossy music, yes, artifcats are there, but since 95% of the population can't hear them, what difference does it make?

I rip all my BD's to 720p video using x264, with a size of approximately 5-7gb per hour, which I then watch on my 1080p TV.  I'm sure there artifacts are there, since the files are a fraction of their size on BD, but damn if I can see the difference unless I'm looking very, very closely and using the pause button.  And that's generally been my experience with Harmy's 720p Ded.

SpilkaBilka said:

I agree, I think people were influenced by the Story of Star Wars LPs and stuff like that.  But I *want* to believe!

Someone on this board, I forget who, has memories of seeing the movie in theaters a few times, and there was no scene of Vader flying away at the end.  The story sounded credible to me.

Anyway, it would be cool to see *some* kind of variation between prints, no matter how small of a difference.

FWIW,I just have to say, I saw Star Wars multiple times in '77-'78 with my Dad.  I have very, very distinct memories of both the missed grappling hook scene and Vader spinning off without regaining control of his ship.  I have no memories of the Biggs scene.  But yeah, I absolutely remember look tossing the hook, pulling it back almost into the belt, and cueing it up again.

I'm pretty confident of these memories because many years later when I saw Star Wars for the first time on home video (I believe it was HBO) I remember being very surprised at the grappling hook scene in particular (i.e. only one throw).  I also remember being surprised at seeing Vader get control of his ship, but in that case I thought my memories might just be playing tricks on me.  My Dad thought the same thing at the time, and we've since discussed it. To this day, as many times as I've seen the film, I'm always surprised when Luke gets that grappling hook to catch on the first try.

This was long before the internet, and long before I would have been exposed to any chatter about this to create a false memory.

I don't know about the Biggs scene, and I'm frankly skeptical about that, but I'm about as certain as I can be about seeing the other two scenes.

Harmy, I was looking at it the other day and I thought Empire looked amazing. Then again, you're the "creator" and will always see the flaws the rest of us missed.  I'm sure you could be working on these the rest of your life if you wanted, but eventually you just have to walk away.  Works of art are never finished, merely abandoned.

In any event, while Empire is my favourite movie, luckily it's also the SE that I find the least objectionable and don't completely hate watching.

INv8r_ZIM said:

johnlocke2342 said:

Hi.

I'm also a Mac user and I use Ivi, available on the Mac App Store for a few bucks (about €4 if I remember correctly). It has a very good Quality/Size ratio. Only downside is you can't convert DVD ripped as a VIDEO_TS folder. So now I'm using MakeMKV to rip them, but that's another story. I can tell it works, I have the despecialized trilogy in my iTunes library.

For playing Mkvs on an Apple TV without RE-encoding, you can try Video stream if you own an iOS device (don't forget to install the Mac client).

Both solutions work great. Hope it helps.

Yikes...that's a hell of a chore to go through just to play a common video format.  I don't get the appeal (or 'Apple-eal' if you will) of AppleTV.  For the same price you can pick up a halfway decent media streamer that can mount a 3tb drive internally, connect USB3, stream wifi or wired from the home network, doesn't care if you use iTunes or not, AND can cope with virtually every codec ever used (except the original MP4 AVI codec - damn you, DAP MST3K episodes!!!!!  DAAAAAMN YOOOOOOOOO!!!!).  I'll admit I may just not have heard about it, is there something AppleTV actually does that makes it a better choice in any circumstance?

Agreed.  I'm a Mac user...Macbook Pro, iPhone, iPad, but when it came to TV, I passed on the AppleTV and picked up a WDTV Live.  I can connect my 3TB hard drive right to it, still stream from my Mac, and it plays ever video format and codec I've thrown at it, flawlessly (including all of Harmy's masterful releases). 

When ATV has those capabilities, I might switch. But right now even a jailbroken ATV can't compete with the WDTV.

Looking forward to 2.1

Harmy said:

Well, I recently had a chance to compare it to the BD sitting close to my 27" LCD 1080p monitor and to be quite honest, in movement there is quite a noticeable difference in resolution. But I guess if you weren't sitting with your nose on the screen, the difference would be quite minimal.

Indeed...and unless you're sitting the optimal viewing distance for 1080p (and most people don't), you wouldn't notice any difference at all.

timdiggerm said:

JavaJones said:

You're basically saying we want the whole movie to look crappier so that the crappiest looking bits look better by comparison,

The less of a clash between elements, the less the viewer is drawn out of the film experience.

 

 Indeed.

dblake83 said:

 

 

I would like to give my my heart felt thanks to Harmy for restoring my memories in HD! Excellent, phenominal work!!!

 

Mr Chewtobacca,

Respectfully I disagree with you on all counts. I see the difference and so do others. These releases need to be kept "archival grade" IMHO, you can never get back what is lost.

A 16GB file in 2013 is not large. If someone has issue be it connectivity-wise or patience-wise between a 10GB or say a 20GB file then perhaps the owness is on them not Harmy to do things differently.

Harmy, 

I beg of you,  please keep 2.1 "archival grade" and do not reduces the size via compression merely to cater to a tiny faction. I bet you like me can see the difference. Keep up the great work my friend and my eternal thanks!

This.  

If someone thinks the file size is too large and wants to re-encode it and share it with others, that's one thing. But for a project like this, 16-20GB is not excessive.

First time posting here...Harmy, this project is just extraordinary.  For the first time since I was 11 years old in a darkened theatre I'm able to watch Star Wars the way I remember it.  I've been looking around for quite a while, sorting through the fan edits, etc., trying to find something like this, and you've basically created exactly what I've been looking for...Star Wars in HD, with the things that would naturally be cleaned up in any sane restoration, but without the garbage alterations and "improvements".  

I guess reading here you're still working on colour timing issues, but to my eyes it looks great...though the Death Star interior is slightly greener than I remember. :)  Actually, I don't even like reading this thread, because were it not for the frame by frame analysis, I'm not sure I'd even notice the imperfections. 

Everyone I know, including my kid, who grew up with the PT, thinks this is a better way to watch it.  Can't wait to see what you do with 2.1.

Anyway, thanks for the amazing amount of work you've put into this..and the equally amazing final product. I really don't think anyone at Lucasfilm would have put as much care into doing this as you did...and with limited resources.

Very, very well done.

PS....Does anyone know how I can get on MySpleen?  I was able to download SW 2.0 and Empire and Jedi elsewhere, but I want to be ready when 2.1 is ready!