Wait...what? So what do I need to do in MKVmerge with the audio to correct for this missing frame?
I didn't notice it when I watched it, but I know myself and now that I know it's there I'll notice it....placebo or not. :)
HDTV 2004 SE's?
Hmmmmm. I'm assuming they're just upscales?
I got all excited once when I found an HDTV FOTR w/o the green tint, until I realised it was just a crappy upscale of the DVD.
moviefreakedmind said:
I agree that it's possible Lucas and Disney agreed that the SE has to be recognized as the "official" version (whatever that means) or something but I don't think Disney would agree to give him control over what they can and cant release. Also, I think the likelihood of George putting it in the contract that the OUT can't be released is the equivalent of him putting it in the fine print that Episode VII has to have gunguns in it.
I don't think he'd have anything in the contract that says "The UOT can never be released". I'm not even sure that would be legally enforceable (I'm a lawyer), because it would depend on how you define the "UOT". I do think it's possible, however, that there's something in there that he must sign off or approve any future changes to the existing films. It happens all the time in creative acquisitions...we're not talking about buying a auto parts company. Again, George may just not care any more. I do think we'll get something.
moviefreakedmind said:
Nick66 said:
I agree that the rumour that Lucas has forbid a release of the original versions could be completely unsourced and false.
That said, would this surprise anyone if that were the case? Disney was quite keen on getting Star Wars, to make future films, which was their primary motivation for acquiring the franchise. So if one of George's conditions on the sale was that the film never be released in its original version, or at a minimum that he must approve all future releases of the OT...I doubt that would be enough of a reason for Disney to walk away from the deal. There seems to be a prevailing attitude that once Star Wars was sold to Disney, Lucasfilm gave up any interest in the films at all, and I don't know if that's the case at all. There could be all kinds of conditions to this deal we don't know about.
On the other hand it's also possible that George has softened on the issue. We just don't know.
Now, I have no idea what the deal is, but George wanting final approval on future releases certainly would not be inconsistent with anything he's done before.
That's true, but if Faraci's sources are telling him that Fox is the one refusing to release the OUT then that's still inaccurate. Also, I actually don't think George cares. It's been years since he's fallen back on the whole "true vision" thing where there could only be one version of the film. Before he sold it he just seemed to think that he shouldn't have to restore movies he doesn't care about. If he truly wanted the OUT wiped from existence so much then he wouldn't have given the movies to another company, and he also likely wouldn't have released the GOUT.
Well, you may be right. Like I said, we just don't know, and as I said, it's possible George has softened on it, or just doesn't care anymore.
I'm merely saying that Lucas selling the films to Disney doesn't automatically mean he doesn't have a say in future releases of the OT, as some seem to believe. He may or may not be completely out of the picture. Again, it's all just speculation...we don't know.
That said, no matter what the circumstances, I do think we'll get an official UOT release at some point, seems like it's only a matter of time.
I agree that the rumour that Lucas has forbid a release of the original versions could be completely unsourced and false.
That said, would this surprise anyone if that were the case? Disney was quite keen on getting Star Wars, to make future films, which was their primary motivation for acquiring the franchise. So if one of George's conditions on the sale was that the film never be released in its original version, or at a minimum that he must approve all future releases of the OT...I doubt that would be enough of a reason for Disney to walk away from the deal. There seems to be a prevailing attitude that once Star Wars was sold to Disney, Lucasfilm gave up any interest in the films at all, and I don't know if that's the case at all. There could be all kinds of conditions to this deal we don't know about.
On the other hand it's also possible that George has softened on the issue. We just don't know.
Now, I have no idea what the deal is, but George wanting final approval on future releases certainly would not be inconsistent with anything he's done before.
Mavimao said:
Nick66 said:
The mono mix I think would be a must. What is the source of the mono mix on Harmy's versions?
On Star Wars the mono mix was sourced from VHS tapes from over the air broadcasts in Europe and then restored by a member of this board.
On Empire, it was sourced from a 16mm print (Puggo Strikes Back)
Thanks!
The mono mix I think would be a must. What is the source of the mono mix on Harmy's versions?
Re: Casual fans either don't know, don't care, or prefer the SE's.
People will want what Disney tells them to want, and buy what Disney tells them to buy.
As I said previously, Disney does nostalgia better than anyone else. If they release the UOT, they will have everyone who was ever even remotely been a fan of these movies wondering how they've lived so long without the original versions. And everyone who has never seen them wondering what they've been missing. Trust me, it will be a vintage, online, social networking, retro Star Wars phenomena. Once the Mouse marketing machine kicks in, everyone is going to know what UOT is and why they have to have it. It will be the cool thing to have, like a vintage 1978 Rush T-Shirt worn by a millennial.
No one here needs to worry about people wanting these things.
StarThoughts said:
I don't think there is more demand for the OUT than the SE. I just think the people who want the original are more vocal than the people who are either content with the SE or don't know the difference.
I think this is true, depending on what you mean by "demand". The SE's are already available in HD on BD, so anyone who wants those, or more aptly, doesn't care, can readily acquire them. As you said, the number of people who specifically care about the issue and want the UOT are undoubtedly smaller, but I'd say the "demand" is greater and more intense simply because the UOT isn't available in any suitable home video format.
There's also the old adage in marketing that people want what you tell them to want, and don't know what they want until they want it. For a long time the SE's were pushed as the best version of Star Wars, with all the bells and whistles, so people dutifully bought them. If these films do come out in their original form, once the Disney marketing machine kicks in (and Disney does nothing well if it's not nostalgia) everyone will think they just must have the original version of Star Wars and wonder how they ever just lived with the SE's all those years.
DominicCobb said:
I've said it before and will say it again, there will NOT be new versions of the films.
I strongly disagree with this. New versions of these films is the one thing that I think is as close to a certainty as you can get with guessing.
But it's still in many ways, IMO, up to George. In ten years if he's still involved, and decides the 11 CGI looks too crappy and doesn't reflect his 1975 original vision, and that 2025 CGI would be closer to his 1975 original vision, and wants to have another crack at them I can't see Disney saying no.
darklordoftech said:
I can promise you that the OOT will be the first disc for each movie. It's clear that there's more demand for the OOT than for any version of the SE. If the included SE versions are worth silver, the OOT is worth gold.
I strongly agree with this. First disc and/or stand alone release of the UOT absolutely. They're not going to spend the time and money on a prestige project like this to stick it as a bonus disc. The only reason GOUT was a bonus disc is b/c it didn't cost them anything.
moviefreakedmind said:
I was positively shocked when the GOUT didn't include the New Hope crawl, especially since they would've had to have edited it out of the laserdisc transfer I believe
This shocked me as well. As you said, it pretty much meant that they had to do something with the film other than merely port over the LD transfer. And it means that someone at Lucasfilm was aware that the very small act of reverting to the 77 crawl meant something to a relatively small group of people.
On the other hand, since they were aware of how passionate these people were about it, the fact that they thought for a second they could get away with the crappy transfer we got boggles the mind. The only answer is what it always is for Lucasfilm...Dollars, Pounds and Euros. The only people they'd get to buy those films again are the die hards, and they'd have to give us something to shell out more more for the crappy SE's we hate and in any event already had.
They aren't going to release the 97 versions again. The only versions you'll see in HD in the future are the UOT and whatever current, final, "true" version of the trilogy George or someone else at Lucasfilm/Disney has dreamed up.
I DO believe they will release some version of the UOT in HD...and I equally believe that they will continue to create "new" versions of the films as well. Everything in between...97, 04, 11, will pretty much just fall away. Any more than the original version + the current version is just going to confuse people.
That said, as a lover of these films and their history, I'd personally love to see a Blade Runner type release, where the UOT, 97, 04, 11 plus whatever the most current version is, are all included, with only the OUT + the current version available separately to avoid confusing the public. It's just hard for me to see Disney going that route...but I'd love it.
And no, for all that's good and green in this world, do not involve George Lucas in deciding what the colour timing should be. I'd rather go by the memory of a retried near sighted colour blind projectionist from a second run theatre than trust the timing to George.
Oh crikey, for people thinking there's any chance they'll release 97 versions in HD, or that they're just as in demand or legitimate as releasing the original versions...just forget about it. Those are gone forever. Hold on to your VHS tapes b/c that's probably the only way you're going to see them (absent Harmy's version). There's like 3 people who think the world needs the 97 versions on Blu Ray, and they all post here.
That's not to disparage those versions, IMO they're the least offensive of the SE's, all things being equal I'd love to see every version of Star Wars in HD ala a Blade Runner set. But I doubt that's going to happen. At this point, since the 97 SE's are not the original versions nor George's final, "preferred versions" they are at most a historical footnote. Don't get me wrong, I understand the sentimental appeal of them, you either grew up with Star Wars and were thrilled at seeing it on the big screen again, or you were experiencing it on the big screen for the very first time. So I get that. But it was also the beginning of all the bad stuff that happened to these movies. It's something stuck in between the cultural significant films the originals were and the abominations the later SE's became.
Just give me the pre 97 films (I'm OK with the 81 crawl) with a full restoration (hello Robert Harris) without excessive DVNR and colours that match the previous home video releases (at a minimum)*, and original audio in HD and I'll be happy....once they do that as far as I'm concerned they can add as many audio tracks as they'd like and release the old SE's and create new ones to their hearts content....I even promise to buy them.
*EDIT: I'd prefer a colour timing that matches the original theatrical releases, of course but I don't even know if anyone at Lucasfilm or Disney even knows what the films looked like back then anymore.
Agreed, re: above. Leave black R2 and all other "flaws" alone. This is a theatrical reconstruction so people can experience Star Wars in its original form, with the 1977, 80 & 83 technical limitations intact.
I'm also fine with the 720p (those scans are mind blowing). SW and Empire look fantastic, and better than the official BD's on my 50" plasma.
My suspicion is (and this is purely a guess) that if Disney indeed is planning on releasing the OUT in BD, they'll still have minor corrections like the Blue R2 in there, so hopefully for those who want an "improved" OUT, they'll get it one day.
As far as the questions from people unfamiliar with the project Harmy, patience you must learn. :) I'm sure there are a lot of people checking this place out considering the recent publicity you've gotten. ;)
DVNR is the enemy of all that is good in this world.
darklordoftech said:
Nick66 said:
darklordoftech said:
You say that you wouldn't loose sleep over the matte lines'/boxes' absence, but it sure seems like you would loose sleep over their presence.
Actually, I said I'd be fine either way. Same with the crawl.
my bad
Mate I'm your ally. Details aside, all want the same thing.
darklordoftech said:
You say that you wouldn't loose sleep over the matte lines'/boxes' absence, but it sure seems like you would loose sleep over their presence.
Actually, I said I'd be fine either way. Though all things being equal I'd prefer they stay in with as few changes as possible. Same with the crawl. But I won't freak out if it's otherwise.
You're funny.
darklordoftech said:
Nick66 said:
Trust me, Star Trek fans are. All the time.
Give me one example of a Star Trek fan complaining about a Star Trek movie having matte lines.
I'm referring to fans clamouring for special editions of the Blu-Rays.
darklordoftech said:
What is there to gain from removing the matte lines? Nobody complained about them before 97, and if they did, there's always the SE for them to watch.
That's apples & oranges. You can't compare the home video market pre-97 to now. People's expectations with regards to home video presentations are much higher.
Not quite sure what you're so angry about? Merely said I wouldn't lose any sleep over them cleaning up the matte lines/boxes.
Baronlando said:
It's mind boggling to think there are adults who are just not capable of looking at a forty year old movie in the context of its time, that's just embarrassing.
Well I agree.
But keep in mind, to the vast majority of the general public it's mind boggling that some grown adults care so much about a few changes to a 40 year old movie. For most people, the SE's are just fine (unfortunately).
Trust me, Star Trek fans are. All the time.
Harmy, yeah, I may be mixing up matte lines with matte "boxes"...and it's the boxes I'm referring to that I don't mind seeing "fixed" (though I wouldn't get worked up over the lines being fixed either for that matter).
I do agree it's a slippery slope.
Double post.
Fang Zei said:
The same goes for matte lines, which they would not be cleaning up if we're talking a strict restoration here. That was a technological limitation of the time. It's not about making "the vast majority of fans" happy, it's about preserving the films as they were originally presented.
I hear you about the matte lines, but assuming they do a complete restoration, the original film will be "preserved" no matter what. The issue here is making the original versions of the films suitable for home video release. I do think there has to be a balance between what the die hard fans want (and for the record, I'm fine with the matte lines) and what people who just want to watch the film in HD in its original version at home...but with premium home video presentation. Like with the crawl, I think if we'd just had an HD of the OUT all along but with the matte lines removed, 99% of us would be OK with that.
Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anyone who wants them to just leave well enough alone, but I also understand that Disney might have other considerations when putting this out on home video, and it is a bit of a balancing act.
All things being equal I'd prefer the original crawl, but I'm not expecting it and it's certainly not something I'm going to lose any sleep over if it's the ANH crawl. If everything is 1977 except that, I think people screaming about having the original crawl will look a little cranky. Let's put it this way...if the 77 film in its original form were restored and put out in HD years ago like any other classic film, but with the ANH crawl, I doubt there would be world wide movement to get it put back in there. Sure film purists would want the original crawl, but IMO it's only a big issue when combined with everything else that's been done. That said, I guess the best thing with the crawl would be seamless branching.
Cleaned up matte lines is something I'm agnostic about, I'd be fine either way on that as well. I think they will probably clean them up, and if the film is otherwise untouched (i.e. no 1997+ changes), the vast majority of fans, including those angry about this issue, will be satisfied.
The sound mixes and colour correction is another matter, and who knows which way they'd go with that.
Aside from things like cleaning up matte lines, the ONLY SE change I could ever stand was opening up Cloud City in Empire. I always thought the hallways, rooms etc. looked a bit claustrophobic for a city the clouds, where spectacular views would be a must, and I loved seeing out those windows as everyone was running around, it really opened it up. It's the only thing I miss when watching the OUT.
That said, I agree with those who say the most likely scenario is they're planning on a straight up restoration of the OUT, which is what we all want. My biggest concern is that they won't do all the painstaking colour correction that Harmy did in trying to match the original theatrical releases. I just don't think that's going to be their priority...but hopefully I'm wrong about that. A lot of those choices are largely artistic, and their frame of reference might not be trying to match how the films originally looked.