NeverarGreat

Hal 9000 said:

NeverarGreat said:

Hal 9000 said:

Here, Nev, here is that scene with 5.1 audio. It’s a first attempt, and so if you have feedback and are interested in making it better, let me know. The sync is not identical to the clip you provided, so you are aware.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1zZuEYos__YBJMY8rSfjggjOS-02Hxr3n?usp=share_link

Hmm, it sounds like the central channel is missing.

Other than that, it sounds good 😉

Try the mkv I just added. The mov file is for editing rather than viewing, with six separate mono tracks that together comprise the 5.1.

There are certainly flaws here, so again, if this is something you want to develop further let me know.

There are definitely bits missing here, but I think the biggest issue with this concept is what you said - Han’s voice seems to come out of nowhere. This, however, isn’t the fault of the scene, but the setup earlier in the film.

I’ve been thinking about it a bit, and can see one way to set up Han’s memory organically. We already have one piece. When Kylo speaks to Rey during the festival, she tells him that she can see the cracks in his mask, and that he is haunted by his father. What we really need is a scene that embellishes that, something that would go between that scene and the appearance of Han’s memory exactly one hour later in the film so that we don’t forget that the subplot exists.

I suggest moving two scenes: the one where Kylo communes with Vader’s mask, and the scene where masked Kylo stands in the destroyer hallway and talks to Palpatine. The Vader mask scene could take the place of the hallway talk, happening right after the Falcon is towed into the Star Destroyer. Overlay Palpatine’s voice on the scene so it is clear that Kylo is using the mask as a conduit to speak to Palpatine, and only for this purpose, since he now knows that every other voice was just Palpatine in disguise. Kylo’s voice would have to be changed since he isn’t wearing his mask here, but we’ve already proven that it’s possible and there’s no lip matching required.

The hallway scene can now go several different places in the film, including back where it was in the theatrical version. Since Palpatine’s dialogue is no longer there, it’s a blank slate to fill with whatever troubled thoughts Kylo would have, so we could put Han’s voice into his head, or even place Kylo’s whole vision here, though it would probably be stronger with just Han’s voice. Here, his line ‘Take off that mask…you don’t need it’ actually makes sense, as he’s, you know, wearing the same mask from TFA. If it does go back where it was in the theatrical version, it would form a nice parallel with Rey’s scene where she vows to kill Palpatine. Just as Rey is falling into the darkness, Kylo is tempted by the light. It is noticeable that the next time we see Kylo, he has no mask and presumably didn’t take it with him. So Han’s voice is already having an effect on him. We are seeing the scene from TFA play out again, this time across several scenes and with real progression for Ben’s character.

This scene switcharoo has another benefit. Now that Vader’s mask scene has moved away from the beginning of the film, Kylo’s scene progression goes directly from meeting Palpatine to reforging his mask. This ties directly into the commands of Palpatine, which are to ‘kill the girl, end the Jedi, and become what your grandfather, Vader, could not.’ Therefore, he is recommitted in this moment to becoming like Vader without the confusion of consulting Vader’s lying mask.

With this reshuffling, we might lose Kylo’s vision, but I would argue that Rey’s vision is strengthened by being the only one in the film, and having a scene where Han speaks to Kylo would serve the purpose of Kylo’s vision and more. The only loss in removing that early vision is that now there is no indication that Kylo is haunted before Rey brings it up during the festival, and unfortunately there is no early scene of Kylo which would really work to establish this. Unless…

Imagine altering the final paragraph of the crawl to say: "Haunted by the ghosts of his past, Supreme Leader Kylo Ren rages in search of a hidden power that could ensure his victory…

Pan down to Mustafar, where we see Ren carving his way through his enemies. With each one that falls, we hear the sounds of his past coming back to haunt him. The voices of Luke on that fateful night, of Rey in the forest, of Snoke on his throne, which changes to the laughter of Palpatine. He sees the Wayfinder. With this, Mustafar Minute actually pulls its weight.

So to recap, Kylo now has a whole arc established in minute 1 and developed at 3, 23, 65, 80, and 83 minutes into the film.

It’s just that when I watched Ascendant for the first time a few weeks ago the goonies moment with the dagger wasn’t there and I just assumed that I hadn’t been paying attention and missed it. So I definitely think that if a newcomer watched that having seen the original film they may be confused about its absence as well.

It does seem like the dagger would have been made recently by Ochi, doesn’t it? It may be easier to find one moment to state that somewhere rather than change several moments to make the blade seem older.

If the blade was made, say, fifteen years ago, then it would even make sense to keep the goonies moment in.

JEDIT: Maybe we can change the dialoge from this:

“There’s writing on it.”

“Perhaps I can translate.”

“The location of the wayfinder has been inscribed upon this dagger. It’s the clue master Luke was looking for.”

“And? Where’s the wayfinder?”

“I’m afraid I cannot tell you.”

to something like this:

“There’s writing on it.”

“Perhaps I can translate.”

“Why, this blade was forged sixteen years ago…by Ochi of Bestoon. And look! Inscriptions concerning a Sith Wayfinder.”

“And? Where’s the wayfinder?”

“I’m afraid I cannot tell you.”

Hal 9000 said:

Here, Nev, here is that scene with 5.1 audio. It’s a first attempt, and so if you have feedback and are interested in making it better, let me know. The sync is not identical to the clip you provided, so you are aware.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1zZuEYos__YBJMY8rSfjggjOS-02Hxr3n?usp=share_link

Hmm, it sounds like the central channel is missing.

Other than that, it sounds good 😉

Awesome, I’ll check it out!

Jar Jar Bricks said:

But Kylo doesn’t appear to have the item on him, and in the background you can see the ship is a flaming ruin. I genuinely think it goes through the same process twice.

Checking the scene again, it appears that there’s a fire behind the pod, but that where Kylo was sitting appears to be intact and isn’t on fire during the scene. Which makes sense, because otherwise Kylo would have problems.

Kylo manages to survive his ship crashing, so it makes sense that the wayfinder would survive as well. When Rey burns his ship later, that’s more of what’s known in the insurance industry as a ‘total loss’.

TheDimitrios said:

@NeverarGreat
I agree with everything, but I think it would be better not to show the Wayfinder in the XWing. That could be very easily misread as her using it, even when not hooked up.
Because why should she bring it if it is of no use?

Perhaps Rey doesn’t know how the Wayfinder actually works, and may assume that merely having the artifact near her will impart an ability to find Exegol. And this may be correct, for her.

I like the idea that the Wayfinder isn’t necessary for Rey to find the source of darkness in the film, while it is necessary for Ben. And I don’t think it matters if the audience even picks up on it, because it is supposed to be a subtle difference. If a viewer wants to believe that she used the Wayfinder to find Exegol, they can still believe that. However, a more discerning viewer may realize the difference and appreciate the added depth.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

NeverarGreat said:

Also, it always felt like kind of a cheat that the Wayfinder wasn’t destroyed with Ren’s ship, which this fixes.

To be fair, it was found on Mustafar, and originally belonged to Vader. That thing needed to be extremely heat-resistant by design.

Actually Mustafar has many non-volcanic areas; suggesting that everything needs to be heat-resistant is kind of a hurtful stereotype peddled by Calamarians and other people who don’t understand Mustafarian culture.

The idea that Rey doesn’t need the dagger to find the Wayfinder could have wider implications in the story.

She destroys Ren’s ship on the island, including his Wayfinder. When Luke says ‘You have everything you need’, he could be referring to the force that will lead her toward evil, but that she must harness this force to lead our heroes to Exegol.

We could see her removing the Wayfinder from Ren’s ship, but alter it to show that it is clearly burned and nonfunctional. Perhaps remove her line about ‘two were made’ to make it ambiguous what she’s thinking in that moment. Then later when she is flying to Exegol, the shot of the Wayfinder on her dashboard could be altered to show that it isn’t glowing and isn’t hooked up to anything. Really, this needs only to be a visual change in two or three shots to indicate that Rey isn’t using the Wayfinder like Ren did in the beginning of the film, but that she’s relying on her dark nature to find Exegol, even if she doesn’t realize that she’s doing it.

Not only would this subvert the McGuffin-heavy plot, but it would bring everything back to the level of pure character and be a dark echo of A New Hope, with Rey using the Dark Side to fly Luke’s X-wing and save the day.

Also, it always felt like kind of a cheat that the Wayfinder wasn’t destroyed with Ren’s ship, which this fixes.

Wow, a lot of great thoughts since last night everyone!

I agree that Rey’s backstory shouldn’t be important compared with what is within her now. We’re circling solutions on how to deal with the dagger on the Death Star, so maybe it’s as simple as it calling out to people who are already in tune with the Dark Side.

Rey leaves her friends to go after the dagger on Ren’s destroyer, and gets into the fight with Ren. He tells her that she doesn’t need the dagger to find the Emperor’s wayfinder, since there’s no force that can keep Rey away from the Dark Side. He suspects that Rey is even now trying to return to the dagger, though it is now useless to her and she has merely imperiled her friends to find it. When she destroys the Vader mask, his suspicions are confirmed.

I think this, along with dialogue exploring Rey’s hatred of her parents leaving and her subsequent self-deception, would be sufficient to bring the scenes in line with TLJ’s anti-revelations.

We could still have Ren tell her that her parents were killed by the Emperor’s assassin, but he says that they were killed because he had foreseen what Rey would become and wanted to leave a calling card for her to find - the dagger. However, this didn’t go entirely to plan and she ended up being drawn to a very different weapon with a dark history, which led her to Luke instead of to Palpatine.

That’s a good reconstruction, JJ! It makes a lot of sense to me. Unfortunately the Dyad may as well not be in the final film.

Anyway, I’m still struggling with Rey’s backstory. The unsolvable issue here is that Rey can’t truly be a nobody and also connected to the Sith, as she appears to be based on the dagger and Ochi and the ship.

Here’s just a wild idea, throwing it out there just to say it: What if we combine ‘Rey killed her parents’ with ‘Rey’s a nobody with no Force power’? The idea would center around the Sith dagger, the only unequivocal connection between Palpatine and Rey’s past.

Rey’s parents travel to Jakku, destitute and needing money. They agree to sell Rey to Unkar Plutt and immediately spend this money on booze. That night they party and pass out drunk. Rey, meanwhile, is wandering forlornly around the desolate settlement and has been drawn to something in a junk pile: a mysterious dagger. It calls out to her, and she grabs it from the pile. She approaches her parent’s ship with the dagger in hand, waking up the next morning with her hands covered in blood. She is found by a scavenger named Ochi, who takes the dagger from her and takes her back to Unkar Plutt. Ochi relinquishes her, but pockets the dagger. As Rey is being washed up, she hears the sound of her parent’s ship taking off, and she races outside to see it streaking up into the sky. She calls out to her parents to wait for her, but the ship disappears into the sky.

The dagger, it turns out, is a Sith artifact that points the way to Exegol, but only for those who are in tune with its dark power. Ochi gradually fell to its power, but nobody had ever used the dagger more readily than Rey. By this act she proved herself worthy of joining the cult of the Sith Eternal.

I am of the perhaps unpopular opinion that the goonies moment where she uses the dagger to find Palpatine’s tower actually worked in the original, and its absence is noticeable here. If I did a version of this edit, that moment wouldn’t be removed.

I like it!

If that’s true, then it seems at some point that they decided that the Dyad direction wasn’t working out, and its inclusion in the final film feels practically vestigial, with only two mentions in the entire runtime.

My vote is to perform a full appendectomy. By rewriting the hangar dialogue, we’re already halfway there.

Besides, TLJ already established everything we need to know about Rey and Kylo’s mind link, and even showed how physical matter could pass between them across worlds. There really doesn’t need to be a term for a beSnoke Force power established and explained in the prior movie, since this movie has quite enough new elements such as a rotting clone Palpy and Force healing.

What I’ve come to feel, rewriting this scene, is that Kylo’s theatrical lines don’t really match up with Rey’s lines, so I think he was definitely telling her something else in an earlier version of this film, something far more personal and less expository. All of her emotional lashing out and ‘I don’t want this’ doesn’t make sense when he’s talking about some Sith or Jedi prophecy or saying that her parents were loving people who protected her from Palpatine.

So that’s why I’m heavily leaning on the idea that whatever Kylo tells her must be something highly personal to her that she fundamentally doesn’t want to believe, and he has to say this right from the start of the scene, because she almost instantly responds with a tearful ‘You’re lying’. Kylo’s lines about Rey needing to see who she was make sense, but Kylo then following that with ‘I know the rest of your story’ doesn’t seem to warrant such an extreme response from Rey. It’s like he made a direct statement about her that cuts to the core of her being.

Hal 9000 said:

Just wanted to assure Nev that I was able to work a bit on the 5.1 for his Leia death scene, and while I am not done yet I will still return to it as I am able.

Cool! There’s no rush on any of this.

Also, I showed the mockup to my girlfriend to get her official report, and she liked it, so that’s iron clad proof it’s good 😉

In particular, she actually appreciated that there was no shot showing Kylo seeing the figure of Han emerging from the mist, because that would be too ‘on the nose’.

However, she was a bit perplexed by Leia’s line of ‘Together, Rey’. It took a minute for her to realize that she was asking Rey to help heal Ben. So perhaps we can run a few more variations of that line to make it more clear what is happening.

I think we’re pretty much on the same wavelength at this point, and it’s actually a solution that works with the film quite well, minus the explicit ‘Rey Palpatine’ stuff. I would actually also cut any mention of a Dyad, since it is barely in the movie and Force draining can just be a secret power of Palpatine like Force lightning was in ROTJ. In this version, we don’t really need a lot of exposition about Rey’s past, since it can be essentially the same as TLJ. The only added bit would be to explain Ochi and the dagger, and since it’s definitely a Sith dagger, that means that Rey’s past has to have an element of the Sith interacting with it.

“Rey….wherever you are…You are hard to find.

“You are hard to get rid of.”

“I pushed you in the desert because I needed to see it…I needed you to see it…who you are. I know the rest of your story. Rey…”

“You’re lying.”

“You were right…your parents were no one. Worthless scrap dealers from nowhere.”

“Don’t!”

“You remember more than you say. You knew they were never coming back.”

“I don’t want this!”

“You hated them for it.”

“No!”

“But you couldn’t live with your hate.”

(Cut Rey’s vision of her parents…since they are nobodies.)

“You lied to yourself…but that only made your hate stronger.”

“Stop talking.”

(Cutaway to heroes capture)

“Rey, I know how your parents died. They were drunk, on the far side of Jakku, when they were found by an agent of the Emperor. He wanted to know where you were…but your parents couldn’t even remember.”

(Cut vision of Rey’s parents getting killed.)

“So that’s where you are. You know why the Emperor’s always wanted you, Rey. I’ll come tell you.”

…

“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”

“He never wanted to kill you, Rey…he saw what you would become…a powerful host for his corrupted soul.”

“Palpatine told me to kill you, but I know the truth. You are his true prize. There is darkness in you Rey, far more than there is in me. So don’t play his game. We can kill him, Rey…together.”

(Removes his helmet)

“You know what you need to do. You know.”

“I know.”

Alternately, riffing off of your idea of Rey killing Kylo, it could be that Palpatine is seeking a suitable host for his spirit. Palpatine wants Kylo to kill Rey just like Snoke wanted, for this would turn Kylo irrevocably evil and make him a willing host for his evil spirit.

Alternately, Kylo may say in the hangar that Rey is already suitable as a host for Palpatine, which is why Palpatine told Kylo ‘she isn’t what you think’. Rey killing Kylo would merely be more confirmation that she is the one who will be Palpatine reborn, joined to him deeper than blood.

For this idea we could move Palp’s dialogue about his Sith spirit back to the end of the film as it wouldn’t apply to Kylo in that moment, and just fill Rey in on this whole procedure during the hangar scene.

That would be great to have a clean version of that scene.

What I like about this prophecy idea is that it’s a dark reflection of the prequel prophecy. Anakin was ‘destined to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force’, while Rey is ‘destined to destroy the Skywalkers and restore the Sith’. And this version is better than the prequel version, because while that version was up to interpretation with regards to ‘balance’ and took six movies to come true, Rey explicitly fulfills the conditions of this dark prophecy by the end of the movie, but in a way that is unexpected and leads to the heroes’ victory.

JEDIT: If it’s important that Rey be nobody, then her backstory could be tied into the First Order child abductions, and this could tie in with Palpatine’s search for his destined heir:

“Why did the Emperor come for me? Why did he want to kill a child? Tell me.”

“He never wanted to kill you, Rey. He wanted to find his heir, one who would fulfill the prophecy he saw when he returned from death.”

“That’s why he commanded the First Order to harvest the galaxy’s children. It wasn’t just to build new armies. It was to find the one who could end the Skywalker bloodline and restore the Sith. But we can stop this prophecy, Rey, if we kill him…together.”

Essentially, the way out of this writing dilemma may be to have Rey’s backstory be shared with multitudes of other families at the time she was born, while her future is governed by a prophesy which applies to her because she just happened to be in the right place at the right time for the Force to use her for its own mysterious purposes. We can cut out the flashbacks to her parents while still keeping the canon broadly intact. Rey’s parents still sold her for drinking money…but only because the alternative was Rey being taken from them by the First Order. Her parents could still be killed, but because they defied the Order, not because they were specifically protecting Rey or believed that she was special.

Hang on, just had a thought.

Perhaps Rey is important to Palpatine because she shall be the one to destroy the Skywalker bloodline and restore the Sith.

• Her actions in TLJ force Luke to sacrifice himself to save her and the Resistance.

• Her stabbing Ben on the Death Star in the current version forces Leia to intervene and save her son at the cost of her own life.

• Finally, Ben gives his life in order to save Rey at the end of the film.

Palpatine could view anyone capable of destroying his most hated enemy to be his spiritual heir, worthy of sitting on the Sith throne. He tells Kylo to kill Rey at the beginning because he knows that either Kylo will kill Rey and join the Sith, or Rey will kill Kylo and fulfill her sinister destiny.

Kylo’s speech to Rey on the Star Destroyer would convey this information, letting her know that she was responsible for Luke’s death and would be responsible for Leia’s death as well as his own, unless she joined him now and they destroyed the Emperor outright. He’s telling her that by the end of this every Skywalker will be dead, unless she turns from her path and joins him.

“Why did the Emperor want to kill a child?”

“He didn’t want to kill you, Rey; he believes you to be his heir…the one who will destroy the Skywalkers and restore the Sith. But the prophecy is coming true…Luke is gone, Leia is dying, and I will soon follow, unless we destroy the Emperor…together.”

On the Death Star, this prophecy seems to be coming true in front of Rey’s eyes. She runs to Luke in fear, seeking his perspective of the destiny that is being fulfilled. He tells her that she must still confront that fear by going to Exegol, and Luke reassures her that this will not deter him from supporting her. He gives her Leia’s saber, since he knows that Leia would have still considered Rey family.

Finally, in the confrontation with Palpatine, she is joined by Ben and together they face Palpatine. However, he drains their life-force and so fulfills the part of the prophecy where Rey shall restore the Sith. After this, Ben suffers apparent pit death, and at this point the prophecy seems to be entirely fulfilled.

Then Rey is visited by the spirits of Luke and Leia and they tell her that her journey isn’t over. She must rise and fight for what their family stood for, and bring balance to the galaxy.

The final scene has her confirm that she is the spiritual successor to the Skywalker family.

So this is a version of ‘Rey killed her parents’ except it is forward-looking; she is destined to kill her newly adopted parents.

That version is great, though I can see a version where he is slightly more…sad? Like he’s almost unwilling to tell her.

Fan_edit_fan said:

After Andor season 2 it’s just all bleak and weak.

Actual lol, but also true.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Here’s how Nev’s line would sound in context of the scene (plus the file itself): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1sWvJn8utKM3o28BAUsqHhnz3nhWqDWOO?usp=sharing

Sounds good.

I just want to say how astonishing this AI voice tech is. A few years ago changing actor’s lines was an impossible pipe dream, and now we can just transform a film with it.

Leia may not have known Palpatine was alive before the start of the film, but she still could have sensed Rey’s dark lineage. There’s no reason why Palpatine still needed to be alive for Rey to be descended from him.

Yep, I totally intended that connection…

😉

Hal 9000 said:

And I think I’ve come around on Poe as undercover cop. Zorri does tell him “He’s not stupid enough to come back here.”

So… there likely will be a V5 at some point. It’d be silly to be hasty about it, though. I imagine waiting until all the Rey Nobody pieces are finished to Dom’s satisfaction and then release a final version of both at once.

Nice! My idea wasn’t silly after all! Or maybe it was, just less so than the original film…

“Because you’re a Palpatine. Leia sensed it during your training.”

Superweapon VII said:

JadedSkywalker said:

Starcrash. I’ve finally watched a sci fi film that is worse than the Star Wars Holiday Special. One of the worst films i have ever seen, worse than At the Earth’s Core even.

This movie has a cult following, and I just don’t get it. Caroline Munro’s hot. Big whoop. T&A alone can’t elevate a bad movie to so-bad-it’s-good.

Maybe it depends on the crowd, but I remember seeing it at a special screening with a few hundred B-movie fans and thought it was hilarious.