That’s quite the breakdown! I don’t think I’ll be able to respond directly to every point you raise, but I’ll do my best. 😃
Also, please keep in mind that any critiques I may have are coming from a place of admiration, because I’ve really enjoyed everything you’ve written between each draft and I like seeing it improve. I actually think it has gotten better with each draft!
Aw thanks. Looking back at where it started, some of the ideas seem quite bizarre, but it’s all grist for the mill I guess.
Lol, really? You haven’t played Knights of the Old Republic? Sorry for spoiling the game for you then!
Don’t worry, I’m not an avid gamer so I probably won’t play it, despite hearing such good things.
When thinking about my own rewrite (or at least my ideas for a rewrite), that’s what I try to think about when it comes to what to do about all of the characters. Kind of like with Poe, when you look at TFA to TLJ, clearly we see a hero learning to become a leader, so in IX, we have to see that come to fruition, and him becoming that leader has to be his arc.
Ironically, TROS touches on all of these things, but in the most surface level way possible, so it is nice to see in your version these things take center stage, rather than afterthoughts to the Palpatine goose chase.
Poe definitely needs to become a leader, and taking Leia out of the equation early on will definitely help with that.
Speaking of which, I’m curious if you are keeping the spirit possession stuff in the next draft. It is a compelling idea, but as I’m reading it, I do feel like it leads you into similar problems with just having Kylo unconscious for an act of the film. It feels like we’re not really getting Kylo, or feeling his character a lot. It’s like he’s being overshadowed by whatever is possessing him. Kind of like when I read the DotF, it’s hard for me to picture Adam Driver acting out some of those scenes.
From the sound of your new conflict between Rey and Kylo, I’m guessing not. I do love that conflict, by the way! As the filmmakers have said, IX was always meant to be Leia’s movie, but with her death, unfortunately she could only be in it so much. The idea of writing her out of it tends to be a common idea, or she dies really early on, which does happen in your previous drafts. But, the idea of making the central conflict for Rey and Kylo revolve around saving Leia is really interesting. For one, it’s a great parallel to Padmé, and a nice way to mirror that conflict. And I can see it having interesting
meta narrative implications.
Yeah, I was feeling the same thing about Kylo and the possession. I’m not even sure that Snoke will appear in any form in this next draft, to further focus in on the primary cast. I think that the Snoke possession had become basically the Palpatine plot and had become the very thing I swore to destroy.
When it comes to Kylo, or the Stormtroopers, or the Officers, the important thing is that as they align themselves with our heroes, that it happen at a believable progression. I know we only have one “movie” to work with, but I feel like there needs to be some kind of setup -> buildup -> payoff. This was something I wasn’t too fond of with your initial drafts, because it felt like the stormtroopers and Kylo aligned themselves ideologically with our heroes rather quickly. What you did with your following draft, where Finn’s big speech didn’t work, was rather amusing and kind of goes in that direction of what I’m talking about.
Plus, slow progressing these relationships are a good way to maintain conflict between the characters. The longer they have ideological differences, the more they can challenge each other in each scene.
For example, I think there is a lot of great potential with the officers like Ventess (I keep saying “Ventress” in my head, lol), especially to butt heads with Poe. I like the idea of the officers being harder to really “join” the Resistance than the stormtroopers. Maybe they’re really only helping them because they have their Supreme Leader prisoner, and their loyal to him and not to Hux. But this gives Poe and Ventess time to talk about why they believe in each other side, and eventually they come to some mutual understanding.
The Ventess character name was really a placeholder and I only realized after a few chapters about the similarity to Clone Wars. She would have been a diehard First Order adherent who sold out our heroes to Thrawn until realizing her mistake deep into act 3, if she did at all. She’s the embodiment of a person that can’t be convinced no matter how well the heroes roll persuasion.
I’ve talked about this before in other threads, but I felt like a missed opportunity of the ST, that could’ve set it apart from the OT, was to show the “reunification” of the Republic. Sure, the Rebels restored the Republic, but the Empire, and even the First Order, came from the Republic too. At the end of the OT, it seems like they just tried to get rid of the Empire, but the Imperials were still there. It would be interesting if through the understanding between Poe and Ventess, it leads to some kind of peace or reintegration of the two factions. But then again, maybe that doesn’t align with what the political allegory should be for this film.
I do like the idea of a reunification theme, but as with the Ventess character, I feel like there are too many lifelong fanatics in the First Order to really save it. The conversion of the Stormtroopers is about as far as I think is reasonable to take the idea of peace, and any conflict with the old guard would almost certainly end in a battle to the death of one side or the other. At least that’s my gut feeling on the faction, and I don’t think I’m talented enough to make true reunification feel organic on the page.
But more on Kylo, I do think something that would be beneficial to the story would be if Kylo didn’t just flip from bad to good. I like the idea of Kylo having to work with our heroes a little reluctantly, whether be as a prisoner or what, and he still has his own goes, but as the story progresses, he might learn from the other characters and realize how he has been wrong. I know your new draft is gonna have Kylo it in more, but that is a definite issue imo with your previous version. I feel like there is a few missed opportunities to have Kylo interact with the various characters of the Resistance. But even when he is working with them, I like the idea that he still has his own agenda. Like, he believes after they work together to take down Hux and his traitorous Knights, he’d be able to retake control of the galaxy again. So in a way he still is a bit of an antagonist even if they are working together. And I feel like that bad-to-good shift shouldn’t really happen until the end of Act 2/beginning of Act 3.
I agree with that. There’s no version of a future draft where Kylo turns completely good by the end of the story, and at best I think he will find some peace while it is implied that he will work for years toward atonement.
Again, I’m just thinking out loud. Obviously they don’t have to be this way. Just suggestions that I think can help make the story more engaging up until the climax.
Speaking of engaging, maybe it is more of an issue because it is written word rather than visual, but I do feel like I personally lose a little interest during the simulation runs. I know it is sort of necessary to acclimate the two groups, but I feel like the stakes aren’t as a high as they should be, for the final film in the saga, since they are just practicing. Then again, this time does allow our characters to interact instead of chasing senseless MacGuffins.
But maybe it is just because I struggle keeping up with the action of space combat when it is just prose. Maybe it would help if there was B Plot with action, maybe Hux and the Knights chasing leads and destroying Resistance cells, while the A Plot were our heroes prepping for the final battle or whatever. That might help raise the stakes of their predicament.
The simulations are definitely an idea that has lost some luster upon further rewrites for the reasons you say. It’s definitely more of a Star Trek idea, and in fact I watched a DS9 episode soon after writing version 1 that did almost that exact thing, much to my amusement. So yes, as much as I like it in theory, it’s best left for a Star Trek story.
And maybe you did this and I just skipped over it, but I guess what could help raise the stakes is the fact that the bulk of the Resistance, and the only piece of Kylo’s First Order faction, are on this single ship. One ship amongst a galaxy full of overwhelming enemies and scattered allies. And this one ship could become a microcosm of what the galaxy could the potentially be: A unified people, despite their differences.
You’re right, Kylo’s fleet was actually made up of the ships which were sliced up in the Holdo Maneuver and then pieced back together in the months following. I don’t know if I ever described the Shattered Fleet by name or where it came from, but it was to be a visual representation of the scars of war, with Kylo’s destroyers all having nasty weld marks across their hulls like scars, and it is one of these ships which the Resistance captures. The rest had been sent back to the Supremacy, which in canon has docking bays for quite a few Destroyers and in this version of the story is in the final stages of repair.
You’ll see the full First Order armada near the end of the treatment you’re reading, made up of ships new and old. My thought is that the First Order used its new ships in TLJ to chase down the Resistance, while it had many older ships in reserve which were enough to exert its will through the rest of the galaxy. The First Order in this way is actually quite fragile in its forces, casting a threadbare net over the galaxy so to speak.
But, I don’t know know how much else has change in your newest draft, so much of this may be totally pointless! Anyway, I hope you don’t mind me rambling on like this. Definitely do what you want to see. This is your rewrite after all. Maybe these are some suggestions that can get your creative juices flowing, but I’m excited to see what you have regardless if you use any of this or not!
I don’t think it’s pointless at all, I’m just super happy that some value has come from all this thought and effort. It’s also quite fun to toss around ideas, and I’m feeling better about some of the ideas for the next draft now that you’ve sort of echoed a lot of my thoughts.
The big goal for the next attempt will really be in focusing the story down to its fundamentals, and really hit the two themes; the major theme for Kylo and Rey of letting the past die, and the minor theme for Finn, Rose, and Poe of saving what they love.
PS: It took me awhile to write this post and I’ve since read the dance scene. I wasn’t sure what to expect with the festivities, but I really enjoyed it actually! It was a good moment for our characters to bond like normal people.
Glad you liked it! This is one aspect which I really want to delve into in my next draft, namely the ensemble aspect of the story. Looking back over the entire saga, there really hasn’t been a film to truly commit to the ensemble, instead either focusing on a single character or small group, or splitting up a larger group to focus on individual stories in a single film. I feel like ROTJ suffers from this the most, since Han and Leia are practically non-characters by Act 2 as the story focuses on Luke. This works, but only just, and it’s one of the things that has driven this rewrite. I want the final chapter of the saga to grow beyond individual characters and truly make the story a group effort where every character is instrumental. Perhaps it’s unrealistic and overambitious, but it continues to be my goal.
