NFBisms

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

If you choose to interpret it that (wrong) way that’s your prerogative. But the film (and it’s ending especially) is explicitly about the success of Luke’s legacy, and how that has inspired the galaxy.

No, the film is explicit in the success of Luke’s effort to inspire hope in a terrible situation he was party responsible for. This does not create a legacy of success, it creates a glimmer of hope in a legacy of failure.

If a police force sit on their behinds, and allow a group of criminals to go on a killing spree, they have failed in their duties, even if they belatedly see the error of their ways, and attempt to bring them to justice, or more accurately inspire others to do it for them.

I don’t really think it’s fair to blame the rise of the First Order on Luke.

And the films don’t even really suggest that. The point is that the dark side always comes back. You can’t always stop it from rearing it’s ugly head, what’s important is that there’s hope you can defeat it once again.

The majority of the responsibility isn’t on Luke. However, it is the responsibility of a Jedi to guard peace and justice. The dark side can always come back, but it is a Jedi´s responsibility to prevent that from happening, or if it manages to rise again, do everything in his or her power to defeat it. Luke didn´t live up to that responsibility.

I thought it was to use the Force for knowledge and defense never for attack…

Besides, Jedi or not, I think it would be out of character for Luke post-ROTJ to wage a war just because of visions. That’s what screwed him over in ESB and in the fleeting moments he saw what Ben could become. His arc in the OT was to become less about looking to the future (horizon) and “rushing into battle.”

Once I get around to finishing my new desktop, I’ll upload a much better version.

The quality of this one honestly kind of sucks because of the limited resources. I just put it out as closure for the time being (at least for the rest of the year). I didn’t want the only version of the edit out there to be one I didn’t stand by anymore. Putting something out - even if it isn’t amazing quality - I felt was a good way to put it behind me for now, otherwise I wouldn’t stop thinking about it.

I’m going to be so busy working/interning/studying for quite a bit going forward - and working on/rendering it takes up a good chunk of my time and headspace. I won’t lie, this project has kind of been a distraction lol.

Yeah, Obi-Wan and Yoda didn’t think there was still good in Vader. Luke did. And Luke was right.

I think proving his mentors wrong in ROTJ is the seed for where we find Luke in TLJ. Not the prequels.

Aside from a reference to Sidious, the prequel dogma is barely touched on in TLJ. The root of Luke’s disillusionment isn’t in celibacy, and the repression of emotion, humanity, or attachment. Nor in anything political. It’s in the idea that it’s “too late” for anyone. That’s straight out of ROTJ for me. It just wasn’t explored until this one.

Ok, it’s up on Google Drive now.

I think the quality just isn’t good enough for how long the torrent has been seeding to be worth it.

I’m working on getting it on Google Drive. It’s only on MySpleen for now.

Hey so, should I upload this to the MySpleen now? It’s not quite full 1080p, but I really have to close the book on this. I think just having it out there is conclusive enough for me. I’ll get it on Drive soon, too, and then put the link to it on the Fanedits subreddit. Otherwise, I have to move on… A lot of people have seen a version of it, but this is it I think.

I can’t say the technical quality is that amazing, and tbh, I think I hate this movie now (I’ve been falling asleep editing it for the past two months LOL), but it’s my ideal version of RotS. I hope other CW fans find it works with the show, or that anyone looking for a sympathetic, un-crazy, and mature Anakin/Vader will like it.

edit: ok done

This probably doesn’t mean anything but a lot of my friends were excited about the Asian representation lol.

I liked Rose, and what she brought to the story, but that’s about it. I don’t think every new character has to become a scene stealer or favorite to have their existence justified. She was fine. I don’t think there was anything offensive or bad about her, but there wasn’t anything too special either.

^That sounds like it’ll actually work better. Thanks!

wow i wish i was home rn

First Kill and the Revenge of the Sith video game. xP

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mCG0B5R7v5DuJw_g68X3vLsp55JY5R7v/view?usp=sharing

I think the First Kill audio (“You weren’t there, alright? I did what I had to do!”) is a bit jarring to people who know RotS really well, but my sister and friend who don’t have it kind of memorized didn’t notice so idk. For me, what was off was Hayden’s voice in the clip isn’t in the same attitude as the lines that were originally there (“Don’t lecture me Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi…”). So I was iffy about even including this change.

At the end of the day, though, Hayden’s voice “attitude” erratically shifts a bunch in the original as well. Going from “YoU wiLL nOt tAKe heR fRoM me!!” to the calmer “Don’t lecture me…”, etc, pretty quickly. And the content of those lines are all over the place in terms of what they’re saying about Anakin’s motivations, too. Is this about Padme, is it about how powerful you are, about the lies of the Jedi, or about bringing peace and order to the galaxy?

The new lines are more consistent to the idea that Anakin believes in the ends he has killed and slaughtered towards, and makes the confrontation dialogue between Anakin and Obi-Wan actually mean something to both the characters. In the original, the dialogue is really just filler before they have to fight. Obi-Wan is just yelling at Anakin for being evil now, and Anakin is rattling off about like four different things - both just taunting each other with no real conversation about what’s happening between the two of them. There’s no point in building up their relationship in the rest of the movie if the only pay off is that they stop being friends. It should be challenging for the two of them.

So there’s some actual drama going on now, but I think it does ask a bit of suspension of disbelief in the audio. If that proves to be an issue, I’ll get rid of it…

Ayy class got cancelled, so I think I could have a 720p file ready by tomorrow if nothing screws up in the next few hours. I just re-edited the part I lost, but I don’t want to risk losing more again transferring everything from my laptop to my desktop. I can render a smaller file on my laptop for now and work on replacing the footage and rendering out the 1080p one this weekend.

Besides, I need eyes and feedback on this cut before I finalize it. I’ll probably put it on Myspleen once it’s finally done. And then onto AotC. Which I’m pretty excited about.

btw, one last new change:

• Anakin and Obi-Wan’s confrontation on Mustafar has been redone quite a bit. I’ll just transcribe:
  A: You turned her against me! Don’t you turn against me…
  O: Your anger and your lust for power have already done that. You’ve allowed this dark lord to twist your mind, until now - until now, you’ve become the very thing you swore to destroy.
  A: You weren’t there, alright!? I did what I had to do! I have brought peace, justice and security to my new empire!
  O: Your new empire? Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic!
  A: If you’re not with me…
  O: Anakin, please. Face up to what you’ve done.
  A: It’s too late for that. You’re too late.
  O: …I will do what I must.

lightsabers ignite and action

The last time we saw them together, they were friends, so I wanted to have that friendship bleed into this confrontation. Obi-Wan wants to help Anakin here, and Anakin gets that, but doesn’t want it. “Don’t you turn against me” shows Anakin would rather Obi-Wan had disappeared than show up here, now, and Obi-Wan’s response of “Your anger and your lust for power have already done that” no longer refers to taking Padme away but to Anakin himself. His anger and his lust for power, betraying the good person and friend Obi-Wan knew him as. Anakin’s next lines here show more self-awareness of what he’s done than in the original, as he tries to justify it to his friend rather than take some kind of enlightened high ground. Obi-Wan just wants him to let go and abandon that path he’s taken, but Anakin demonstrates how far into this he’s in, and that’s when they fight.

The audio for the elevator sequence got corrupted when I transferred the files from my laptop to my computer, so I have re-edit that portion, but that should be pretty easy. I have class tomorrow though, so I think the “let-it-render-while-I’m-at-school” plan will have to wait until I can start re-editing over next weekend, then I can probably render next Monday.

sorry about that lol

I feel that, but the footage just doesn’t look like Star Wars, and takes me out of it every time. I don’t buy that that’s Leia and Padme, I have to accept that it is because the movie said so.

I love love love the idea, but I think the execution of it is at odds with this edit’s goal to make ep III less expository. I want things that happen in it to be felt, not just told to the audience to accept. For example, it’s not like Anakin and Obi-Wan aren’t “brothers” as stated in the original cut, but do you actually buy that with what we’re given? So one of the biggest goals of the edit is to make that relationship feel more like that. (Which is why some things people would usually cut are staying).

I barely even buy that Padme and Leia are from the same movie with Hal’s Boleyn Girl footage, (not to mention, I’ve personally seen that movie lol) and in the meantime, the original Padme’s funeral scene has emotional pay off from earlier in the movie, and the trilogy. Even if it contradicts a few lines in the OT. Besides, as the “New Canon Cut” of RotS, there is a dumb explanation in the nuCanon explaining how Leia remembers her mother that this edit can fit with.

lol Nevermind actually, I can probably do it. xP

No, I’m definitely doing it. Sorry about being so cynical. Final version will be 1080p, 5.1ch.

MalàStrana said:
the complete dialogue with Grievous ('cause I like TCW tv series so I find it fun it really is the very first time they meet),

I know Hal said in his commentary that the Grevious-Anakin interaction was generally unhelpful as they don’t see each other again, but I think that it works in that a later confrontation with Grevious is just another thing the council takes away from him. There’s set up for him and Obi-Wan to face Grevious again, and the council taking Anakin away from the promise of that, to do something unethical, is just more fuel for his later turn.

I also like Anakin spinning because it’s a good trick.

Just fyi, full 1080p and 5.1 audio is barely possible right now. My desktop has been out of commission for a bit, so I’ve been editing on my laptop, and it can’t really process all of that info without lagging all to hell or crashing. Maybe in the future.

If anyone wants a specific part of my edit with 5.1 audio so they can use it for their own edits (as some people have expressed interest in doing), I can probably provide that with a PM. For now, I’m going over everything for a final render that I’ll probably start running on Monday while I’m at school.

So, the last half of this edit on my timeline is now very different than the original version most people have seen. Essentially, I felt like the pacing was very off once Anakin became Vader. There’s a lot of build up and then the rest of movie wraps up in like 45 minutes. And, overall there’s not a whole lot of excitement. Before I finalize it, it’d be nice to know what people think about these new changes:

• New crawl, with capitalized letters for the factions and better wording/grammar. Letters also aren’t so spread apart.

• Various new extra voice clips, or different voice clips added throughout to make characters seem more like people. Things like Anakin saying “Come on, buddy” to R2, or Obi-Wan and Anakin actually laughing together. The usual with this edit.

• The ending I had devised with the voice over and finishing notes of Vader breathing, is now gone. I’ve just decided to end like the original cut, minus Padme’s dying words and everything Vader says or does after “Yes, master.” The ending I had come up with just seemed a little too hacked together and ended the movie way too quickly. Besides, it seems like the theatrical ending of RotS is generally considered pretty good.

• Yoda wookiee goodbye and fight to get into the temple reinstated just to pad things out for more balanced pacing. Overall, I just also kind of like the feeling of “the Republic’s final days” that these better help establish. These kind of hype up the end, with a goodbye, and just more visuals of Order 66’s aftermath. I cut out the excessive wookiee noises and Yoda only addresses Tarful and not Chewie. So it can still be a random wookiee.

• Since this a TCW adherent edit, Yoda using a lightsaber isn’t a huge deal. I re-added Yoda vs Sidious, just L8WRTR’s cut down version. The movie needed more action and excitement. Obi-Wan and Yoda still don’t plan together to take out Vader and Palps tho; Obi-Wan isn’t told to kill Anakin, and I added dialogue before and during their duel to facilitate that he doesn’t want to. It’s also been pointed out to me that the duel destroying the Senate Hall is pretty symbolic of the end of the Republic and is pretty okay pay off for the trilogy.

• The Chosen One schpiel by Obi-Wan at the end, even if I don’t particularly care for what it’s saying, has some good emotion from both Hayden and Ewan, that I feel was lost in the cut down version. So that’s been put back in.

I think for sure this will be the last version. So. Yeah. If you disagree with any of this, or have any extra thoughts…

I’ll be doing Attack of the Clones after, since I actually have ideas for it now. Like this one, the focus will be on making the characters actually seem like likeable people who have real relationships, and not just purely cutting out the “bad stuff.” That said, if any bad stuff has to stay, it’ll definitely be re-edited to be less stupid.

In terms of a personal edit trilogy, I think by the end, Octorox’s TPM edit should fit fine with my AotC and RotS.

inb4 Episode IX has Kylo turn to the light immediately and the whole movie is the court case trial of Ben Solo.

And then it’s revealed that Rey is actually a Skywalker and also a lawyer.

Episode IX My Cousin Benny

^TLJ doesn’t say that how Luke handled failure was a good thing, though.

Creox said:

After thinking about this for a while longer (this site has that effect doesn’t it? :😃

I think a lot of the angst with TLJ comes from the marked difference in presentation between the OT and this film…Luke in the OT and the story in general is one of mythology as we all know but it was also written and filmed like a mythological tale. The hero’s are right and the villains wrong…the contrast is deep and wide between the two…very black and white.

We see it as a parable and a story in that very light.

With TLJ we see that changed quite drastically imo. Luke is a Jedi master but he is also very human with human flaws and frailties. We see the rebellion/resistance repeatedly fail and that is a jolt for those of us who have been waiting to see the OT style of story telling. It was for me but in hindsight I was happier for it as it opens this franchise and story to open up into many more possibilities. Looking back at the EU the main plot is always similar to one another.

It almost just depends on if you’re a Spider-Man or Superman kind of person. Are your heroes inspiring because you admire their strength and goodness, or are they inspiring because you can see yourself in their heroism? Do you aspire to be them, hold them as the highest standard of who you should be - or do they reassure you that you don’t have to be perfect to still be as good? Not to say that Luke wasn’t flawed prior to his OT hero’s journey, but the crux of that storytelling device is to overcome those flaws. The ST old!Luke is definitely more Spider-Man, right down to the being responsible for a terrible thing.

There’s a place for both, I think. Aspiring to be Superman or the binary good/evil thing has an unstated negative message that when you mess up, that’s it. But on the flip side, the Spider-Man thing can be too forgiving of your lows. There has to be a balance of the two of them, and that’s usually how it goes for those two characters, and most heroes anyway.

I think that Luke got to be both makes him a more complete hero and overall character to me.

TLJ re-affirms the idea that the legendary Luke and his ideals, is something to aspire to, but reminds us that the person behind that legend is more like you and me.

Yep. That’s why Kylo Ren is unstable and the bad guy. He wants to burn all those roots down.

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

From what I understand about what Luke says about the force in TLJ: the Force doesn’t “belong” to any person or group of people (like the Jedi) - it’s not a power that just lets you move rocks and shit. It’s just everything and all the in between in the cosmos - the energy - and you can feel and perhaps harness if you reach out deep enough into it.

It’s not too different from “it’s what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.”

What is different, is the idea that it’s always just naturally balanced. The existence of people simply harnessing one side or the other - the light or the dark - doesn’t imbalance it, or the person. Obi-Wan and Yoda believed Vader to be lost to the dark side and evil forever, and that the Jedi and the light side were synonymous. In their eyes, that’s why Luke had to defeat Vader, and restore the Jedi Order. Save the galaxy, bring balance.

Luke has a “new” understanding of the Force, because of his experiences with himself, his father, and his nephew, that the Force isn’t some kind of constantly tipping scale, internally or externally. It wasn’t “too late” for his father to do good, and the inkling that it might have been “too late” for his nephew is just what solidified Kylo Ren’s rise. The dark side is only a cancer because of the philosophy that is and can be. It parallels with how he comes to grips with himself and his failure. It isn’t so different from realizing that his failure doesn’t define him. It’s not binary, and his arcy in this movie just inspires that anyone can be a hero.

I can understand that, but on one side of the scale are Luke’s personal experiences over his six decade life, on the other are a 1,000 generations worth of experiences. Isn’t the real vanity to presume the Jedi had it backwards for 1,000 generations? Shouldn’t Luke just have added another chapter to those ancient Jedi scriptures, rather than to write a new book?

I assume that’s essentially what’s happening here. The Jedi aren’t ending. Rey is still out there with the books, there are inspired force sensitive kiddos in the galaxy, and Yoda talks to Luke about how masters are just “what they grow beyond” not “what they tell to buzz off to do a new thing.”

DrDre said:

NeverarGreat said:

DrDre Said:

Luke was the Yin to his father’s Yang. In the OT his character was set up to have most if not all of his father’s flaws, but unlike his father he was to make the right choices. His destiny was to pass on what he had learned, to surpass his elders, to become a legend.

And he has. We don’t see the kids at the end of TLJ playing with an Obi-wan or Yoda doll, do we? And he certainly passed on the most important lessons he has learned. He has passed on the knowledge of what the Force truly is, divorced from its Jedi distortions, and he has passed on the knowledge of his failures, which is the theme of the film.

Yes, to those kids he’s Santa Clause. I’ll agree with you on that. I wish I could still believe in Santa Clause…

Luke has passed on another interpretation of the Force. Who’s to say that won’t be as much a distortion as the Jedi interpretation? Maybe not now, but in a 1,000 generations, or when another director at some point has a different idea of what it represents. This is the real lesson of TLJ, methinks.

From what I understand about what Luke says about the Force in TLJ: the Force doesn’t “belong” to any person or group of people (like the Jedi) - it’s not a power that just lets you move rocks and shit. It’s just everything and all the in between in the cosmos - the energy - and you can feel and perhaps harness it if you reach out deep enough into it.

It’s not too different from “it’s what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.”

What is different, is the idea that it’s always just naturally balanced. The existence of people simply harnessing one side or the other - the light or the dark - doesn’t imbalance it, or the person. Obi-Wan and Yoda believed Vader to be lost to the dark side and evil forever, and that the Jedi and the light side were synonymous. In their eyes, that’s why Luke had to defeat Vader, and restore the Jedi Order. Save the galaxy, bring balance.

But Luke has a “new” understanding of the Force, because of his experiences with himself, his father, and his nephew, that the Force isn’t some kind of constantly tipping scale, internally or externally. It wasn’t “too late” for his father to do good, and the inkling that it might have been “too late” for his nephew is just what solidified Kylo Ren’s rise. The dark side is only a cancer because of the philosophy that it is and can be. It parallels with how he comes to grips with himself and his failure. It isn’t so different from realizing that his failure doesn’t define him. And that you can always come back from it.

It’s not binary, and his arc in this movie just inspires that anyone can be a hero.

Whether or not another director challenges that, of course they can. But TLJ’s reading fits with the OT pretty well.

DrDre said:

eddiebrock said:

NFBisms said:

eddiebrock said:

DarthXenu said:

Luke ran away at a moment when he could have stayed and averted the entire rise of the First Order. It was precisely because Luke left that Snoke Kylo and others had an opportunity to lay waste to the galaxy. This is also why, while I love aspects of the epicness of Luke’s end on Crait, the argument that we should celebrate Luke’s effort as something that should inspire the galaxy and was an amazing act of sacrifice requires me to completely ignore the fact that Luke’s cowardice created and then grew the very enemies he is now being lauded for inspiring people to fight back against.

Lets celebrate Luke simply holding off (not defeating) enemies that have already essentially crushed everything he and his friends worked their entire lives for, enemies that he could have stopped before they even got started, if he had simply not run away. Yay?

By contrast, Obi-Wan and Yoda went into exile not as cowards but because they were literally all that was left of their order, but even in spite of that they had a plan in place to fight back against their enemies. They were playing the long game.

Luke on the other hand played no sort of game and just peaced out. Yet in the end I should celebrate the fact that he has basically brought the good guys back to a barely less state than they were when we first began his path in the Force. Honestly that’s pathetic.

And thats the bottom line for so many of us, they made Luke Skywalker pathetic. Even his victory and redemption really means nothing in the end. True victory and redemption would have been to not only acknowledge his cowardice openly (he never does) but also actually make up for it by striking his own blow to the first order.

Why not let Luke be able to get to do the damage that the Holdo Maneuver caused, for example, and go out in a blaze of glory? (I suggested this in another forum) Have him actually show up in the flesh on Crait before the rebels land there and still have all their transports, and bring down the star destroyer into the planet, killing him but giving the Resistance/rebels critical time to escape and (this is the key part) dealing the first order a critical blow, essentially making up in a small way for letting them become so big during his exile. Being more than just a distraction. He deserved something more like that.

The movie explored the nature of heroism - it’s not just about fighting what you hate, it’s saving what you love. Rose spells that out in a really cheesy dumb line at the end there in case you missed it. You can disagree with the message, but that’s still a part of RotJ and Star Wars in general to me.

Luke by the end of his arc in the OT learned to deal with things not with a lightsaber and violence, but with patience and a little compassion. He refused to strike down his father and threw his lightsaber away in a demonstration of his ideals. I don’t think his style is to wreck shit with a lightsaber and deal “critical blows.” Especially before the events of TFA, to a faction that hadn’t even done anything yet. And I’d wager being a force ghost and “more powerful than you can possibly imagine” is a lot better than kamikazing the FO just to hurt them.

Yes, his failure with Ben was a failure of himself and those ideals. But that’s the point of his guilt and disillusionment in himself. I don’t think he’d so soon after shamefully giving into his fear - if even for a second - do the same thing again, just with Snoke and the FO prior to TFA. After he has spent so long and gone through so much to develop that wisdom, he’s not going to make the same mistake twice. So he did what he thought was best, stay away. End the Jedi. To stop this madness forever. This whole cycle - the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo - ends with him. After all, the force and the light of it don’t belong to the Jedi Order. There will always be good and light with or without them. Just like there was still darkness after the Sith, otherwise we wouldn’t have Snoke.

I just don’t think TLJ asks us to celebrate Luke as an infallible legend, but as a man - more like you and me - who, in spite of his failures, was able to get back up from a rut and find a hero inside himself again. In some ways, that’s more true to the humanity of the character than the version many people wanted to see. The idea is that no one really deserves that burden. We’re all just people at the end of the day, even your heroes.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d be fine if we got the other thing too. But that’s what surprised me and what resonated with me with TLJ. They managed to take a less obvious path with the character that paid off in a way that was more poignant and emotional than I was expecting from Star Wars. We sometimes forget that Luke was just a simple farm boy and not always the self assured Jedi Knight from RotJ; he doesn’t lose his humanity just because he grew up. That was always his strength and what won against the Emperor in the first place - his compassion and love for his father. He wasn’t special because he kicked ass.

edit: WOW i’ve been beating a dead horse, i’ll shut up now. i just see the same thing all the time and no one ever responds to what i say all the way im sorry

All good. Outstanding post and you put a lot of time and effort into it. Nothing to apologise for. I completely get that view. Just don’t share it. I feel that by stepping away after he made his mistake of considering killing Ben (which I have decided to accept since no one’s perfect), Luke was even more guilty of not “saving what he loved” and by his passivity as a response, arguably caused the very deaths he foresaw. I guess I would think Luke as a hero would feel a sense of responsibility to use his powers to fight back especially since he is to blame for the mess of the First Order. I feel like every character should have a limit to patience and compassion especially when it causes deaths on a massive scale. But to each his or her own!

I guess the other bottom line for me was, I had been prepared for years for his death and had thought about all the ways Luke could die and how it would be the most emotional/saddest yet coolest thing ever. Luke going out in an epic blaze of glory was something I had dreamed of for years. And when he actually died, I got really confused and didn’t even realize he was dead until the scene shifted to the Falcon. That sucks but I’m glad you and others were moved by it and got to experience what I feel like I was robbed of (whether my own fault or not).

In hindsight, the callback to binary suns was absolutely beautiful (as the moment in ANH is arguably one of the most emotional moments in film history). But I feel like not even being prepared for it took away the resonance of the moment for me. Normally in movies surprises are fun, but I feel like I found out that for me, surprises take away the resonance of moments that should be moving.

I think a big part of it is, that TLJ completely alters the perspective on the character of Luke Skywalker. Some here are trying to defend his characterization by arguing, that TLJ Luke is a logical exponent of early OT Luke, which I don’t agree with. TLJ Luke is as much a retcon as the ROTJ final victory being undone.

Luke was the Yin to his father’s Yang. In the OT his character was set up to have most if not all of his father’s flaws, but unlike his father he was to make the right choices. His destiny was to pass on what he had learned, to surpass his elders, to become a legend.

We skip to ST continuity, where the Alliance’s victory did not lead to a lasting peace. Han and Leia who were destined to be together, got a monster kid, and they separated. It’s not that later generations squandered the OT’s victory, it’s the very heroes of the OT who let it slip through their fingers. The OT fairy tale did not have a fairy tale ending.

The ST represents the reality check of Star Wars. Legends and fairy tales are not real, and TLJ Luke Skywalker is an exponent of that. The OT Luke Skywalker is an icon, someone we aspire to be. TLJ Luke is like discovering the father you allways looked up to, is an alcoholic. He’s more human, and stripped from his iconic status. Sure, he went to AA meetings and finally sobered up, but you never quite look at him in the same way you used to.

The OT is a fairy tale, like Santa Clause, and here’s RJ to tell you Santa Clause does not exist. He’s just some guy in a suit. Christmas is never quite the same to you. Sure, your kids look to this new guy (or girl actually) who’s now wearing the suit, and see Santa Clause, but you know it’s a fake beard, because Star Wars is not a fairytale anymore.

Me personally, I really love this about TLJ. Legends and fairy tales may not be real, but the lessons and messages we take from them are still important. And even if real life isn’t perfect, the future is always worth fighting for.

eddiebrock said:

DarthXenu said:

Luke ran away at a moment when he could have stayed and averted the entire rise of the First Order. It was precisely because Luke left that Snoke Kylo and others had an opportunity to lay waste to the galaxy. This is also why, while I love aspects of the epicness of Luke’s end on Crait, the argument that we should celebrate Luke’s effort as something that should inspire the galaxy and was an amazing act of sacrifice requires me to completely ignore the fact that Luke’s cowardice created and then grew the very enemies he is now being lauded for inspiring people to fight back against.

Lets celebrate Luke simply holding off (not defeating) enemies that have already essentially crushed everything he and his friends worked their entire lives for, enemies that he could have stopped before they even got started, if he had simply not run away. Yay?

By contrast, Obi-Wan and Yoda went into exile not as cowards but because they were literally all that was left of their order, but even in spite of that they had a plan in place to fight back against their enemies. They were playing the long game.

Luke on the other hand played no sort of game and just peaced out. Yet in the end I should celebrate the fact that he has basically brought the good guys back to a barely less state than they were when we first began his path in the Force. Honestly that’s pathetic.

And thats the bottom line for so many of us, they made Luke Skywalker pathetic. Even his victory and redemption really means nothing in the end. True victory and redemption would have been to not only acknowledge his cowardice openly (he never does) but also actually make up for it by striking his own blow to the first order.

Why not let Luke be able to get to do the damage that the Holdo Maneuver caused, for example, and go out in a blaze of glory? (I suggested this in another forum) Have him actually show up in the flesh on Crait before the rebels land there and still have all their transports, and bring down the star destroyer into the planet, killing him but giving the Resistance/rebels critical time to escape and (this is the key part) dealing the first order a critical blow, essentially making up in a small way for letting them become so big during his exile. Being more than just a distraction. He deserved something more like that.

The movie explored the nature of heroism - it’s not just about fighting what you hate, it’s saving what you love. Rose spells that out in a really cheesy dumb line at the end there in case you missed it. You can disagree with the message, but that’s still a part of RotJ and Star Wars in general to me.

Luke by the end of his arc in the OT learned to deal with things not with a lightsaber and violence, but with patience and a little compassion. He refused to strike down his father and threw his lightsaber away in a demonstration of his ideals. I don’t think his style is to wreck shit with a lightsaber and deal “critical blows.” Especially before the events of TFA, to a faction that hadn’t even done anything yet. And I’d wager being a force ghost and “more powerful than you can possibly imagine” is a lot better than kamikazing the FO just to hurt them.

Yes, his failure with Ben was a failure of himself and those ideals. But that’s the point of his guilt and disillusionment in himself. I don’t think he’d so soon after shamefully giving into his fear - if even for a second - do the same thing again, just with Snoke and the FO prior to TFA. After he has spent so long and gone through so much to develop that wisdom, he’s not going to make the same mistake twice. So he did what he thought was best, stay away. End the Jedi. To stop this madness forever. This whole cycle - the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo - ends with him. After all, the force and the light of it don’t belong to the Jedi Order. There will always be good and light with or without them. Just like there was still darkness after the Sith, otherwise we wouldn’t have Snoke.

I just don’t think TLJ asks us to celebrate Luke as an infallible legend, but as a man - more like you and me - who, in spite of his failures, was able to get back up from a rut and find a hero inside himself again. In some ways, that’s more true to the humanity of the character than the version many people wanted to see. The idea is that no one really deserves that burden. We’re all just people at the end of the day, even your heroes.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d be fine if we got the other thing too. But that’s what surprised me and what resonated with me with TLJ. They managed to take a less obvious path with the character that paid off in a way that was more poignant and emotional than I was expecting from Star Wars. We sometimes forget that Luke was just a simple farm boy and not always the self assured Jedi Knight from RotJ; he doesn’t lose his humanity just because he grew up. That was always his strength and what won against the Emperor in the first place - his compassion and love for his father. He wasn’t special because he kicked ass.

edit: WOW i’ve been beating a dead horse, i’ll shut up now. i just see the same thing all the time and no one ever responds to what i say all the way im sorry

Racer Cool said:

NFBisms said:

I think disliking TLJ and not thinking its direction was worth taking is totally valid. Those against it and its Luke are only judging it in the context of their own personal perceptions of what the franchise has been to them and should continue being. There’s probably something to be said - positive or negative - about how Johnson opted to double down on a specific interpretation of the world, rather than keep it broad enough for everyone to appreciate.

No, that’s not quite right. We are judging it in context of what has come before. Meaning, what has already been developed over an entire trilogy concerning the character of Luke. Luke was “the new hope”. The whole point of the original trilogy was that good can overcome evil, primarily by taking the high ground, being patient, facing ones fears, sacrificing self, and ultimately by redemption. Against all advice and conventional wisdom, Luke persisted in his mission to save his father, and therefore destroy the Sith. He proved that he was right, and he succeeded, sacrificing himself in the process. (He didn’t actually end up dying, but he was willing to do that and nearly did). Same thing for running across the galaxy to save his friends.

But suddenly, with no real transition, here’s Luke abandoning his friends (and his own family!) when they’re struggling in a fighting retreat against the new bad guys, and on top of it he even tries to kill his own nephew, in his sleep, because he sensed darkness within him. Darkness…? Within a young Skywalker…? Say it ain’t so!

…um…Luke, have you completely forgotten everything you’ve done, seen, and learned…? Did Palpatine’s lighting assault actually fry your brain?

In no way does this make any sense at all, and goes against everything Lucas and company worked hard to develop in the entire OT. So yes, with respect, we’re stuck in our established perceptions of who Luke is and should be. Maybe, as I said, if there was some transition that shows us why Luke would veer so far off course (it won’t be sudden because radical changes like that are a process), then maybe it could be accepted. But as it is, it makes no sense at all. Even the Prequel Trilogy took three films to show a slow corruption of Anakin, and his ultimate fall.

So, there’s been a lot of discussion about this already, and I don’t want this thread to keep going in circles, so I’ll just link to posts I’ve made before about how I personally feel about it:

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1152347
http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1152366

This is ok for me actually because DrDre just dropped our discussion after my last post, so it’d be nice to continue it with someone else.

Basically, the fact that he went through all of that - had that entire arc in the OT - is why it’s as big of a failure as it is. Anything less than Luke doing something against the ideals he spent so long developing would make the failure less pertinent. If you feel let down and disappointed in where Luke starts in this movie, to me, that’s the point. That’s how Luke feels about himself. After everything he’s been through… how could he? He then stops seeing himself as the hero he was. Maybe even as the friend, uncle, and brother that he was.

Valheru_84 said:

NFBisms said:
Honestly? I wasn’t even talking really about what you’re ranting about here…

I’m not ranting thank you.

NFBisms said:
…but if you want my thoughts, a lot of what you have to say - the entire premise of it, actually - is too presumptive about what TLJ was doing or trying to say. We don’t have a hard and fast answer about the nature of Rey’s or broom boy’s force sensitivity, so I personally haven’t really been touching that. I have my own ideas, but it’s just speculation and not anything the movies explicitly say at all. I don’t actually think TLJ was saying that the force works the way you described, though.

Too presumptive? Snoke, the most powerful force user we’ve ever seen who’s character hints at having been around for a long, long time, probably influencing events before even the PT (we know at least long enough to see the rise and fall of the Empire) and who seems to have an immense knowledge of the force to the extent he can perform force-skype calls between other force users light years apart without them realising it, proclaims that as Kylo has been increasing in strength, so would his equal opponent in the light side appear. This was a clear explanation to the audience in response to all the flak Rey got in TFA for advancing in her force use too quickly and easily. Jake also only a little earlier in the movie explains the balance in the force which now in retrospect seems like it’s also priming us for the explanation Snoke gives. I’m only going off what TLJ has served up in regards to how the force apparently works now. Other people have also picked up on this, asking why then had Snoke’s opposite equal in the force not shown up from the light side? Maybe that is now Luke, but what about during the events of the OT?

NFBisms said:
But yes, if that (ending the Jedi = good idea) is what is supposedly going through Luke or Jake’s mind, it is at odds with the idea that the force naturally balances itself. The thing is - the movie goes out of it’s way to tell us Luke was wrong to do and think what he did. So. There you go. Again, though. I don’t think the force works the way you think it does.

The movie would also have us think that Jake was that powerful and in touch with the force that he understands at its root level the source and relationship that the force shares with everything in the universe which causes him to reject the dogma of the Jedi teachings and enables him to astro project himself and objects even when he’s not present (the dice) across light years which is not that dissimilar to Snoke’s force-skype calls and speaks to the same level of mastery and knowledge of the force. So why would Luke not also know about this fact of the force self balancing? That his self sacrifice would essentially be for nothing, lending more weight to the fact the reasons for his actions are inherently flawed regardless of conflicts with his OT character and that he should have just gone to confront Kylo in person, if at the very least to still just buy the resistance fighters time to flee and then fade away into the force as Kylo is about to strike, like Obi-wan does as Vader strikes. They actually set this scene up just like that to create this expectation but because the entire movie is built on subverting expectations, at the very last second RJ yanks the rug with Jake instead pulling a matrix move and shortly after is revealed to be an astro projection. Then he fades away into the force anyway as a double subvert.

NFBisms said:
There’s nothing to prove definitively that it’s random magic.

No there’s nothing 100% definitive but there’s not much missing to make it so.

NFBisms said:
FWIW I personally think Lucasfilm not having an overarching plan for the trilogy is fine, because it ensured we got at least one actual movie and not just run-of-mill product flicks. I liked that Johnson was able to imprint more of himself onto TLJ and that it was allowed to be more of a character study than a “can’t you wait for even more SW buy your tickets now1!1!” kind of movie. I know a lot of people wanted something else than what we got, but characters/themes are right up my alley, and I’m ok with it.

In regards to an overarching plan - I’m fine for directors to take trilogy movies in unexpected ways but they still need to maintain some logical connection to the main story arcs it is part of and stay within the rules already established by previous movies or at most, expand upon them. Not fundamentally change them.

Also when I go to see a SW movie, I’d like to see a SW movie - not a RJ imprinted fan film of SW.

.Val

I don’t know what to tell you, I just didn’t get any of that from the movie. Sorry. xP

Or at least, we know too little about what’s going on for me personally to make any statements or judgements about it. We know absolutely nothing about Snoke to say where he came from. And what I got out of the whole balance thing is that balance between dark and light happens naturally in , well, nature. Saying that “darkness rises and light to meet it” was like cheekily saying “survival of the fittest.” A fact of nature and animals (but about the nature of the force) applied to human infrastructure as an idiom, not exposition about how the force works. Where there’s villain, someone will always try to be the hero. The force doesn’t “belong to anyone” as Luke says in this movie, just people harnessing that naturally balanced energy field. It doesn’t randomly just “appear” in people to balance things out; there isn’t enough for me to assume that’s what’s going on.

I apologize for saying you were ranting, you just responded to my post about something else entirely with a huge wall of text. It seemed like you had this whole thing prepared and just used my post as a way to put it out there. Which is fine.