MonkeyLizard10

Working on a specific color calibration for this feature alone as it seems to need a slightly different tweak than most of the other stuff scanned.

A few samples comparing 35mm to the DVD, BD, HDTV broadcast.

The blue (Pantoran?) girl on the left is INSANELY hyper saturated on the actual 35mm, finally seeing what I recalled in the theater and what fell so flat on the DVD, BD and HDTV broadcasts (didn’t get to check yet whether the UHD with the wide gamut palette restored her colors or not).

However, this part at least, with the blue girl, is not the fault of altered color grading (although it still is a bit) but more that her colors are simply way beyond anything regular sRGB/REC709 standard gamut colors can show. I posted the 35mm in both sRGB and ProPhotoRGB wide gamut and you can see how the sRGB clips her saturation right back to the basic home versions.

Note that you can only see her proper colors if you are viewing on a wide gamut display set to wide gamut mode and with a proper display profile and FULLY color-managed viewer. Otherwise it will just look the same as the 35mm standard gamut version or completely incorrect one way or another.

It turns out the her colors seem to be too intense for the scanner used to be able to pickup so I had to manually adjust her colors (shows that it can be important to have the reference print in hand when dealing with scans, if I did not, then either she (as well as the “A Long Time Ago…” intro title, would be way undersaturated, either that or they would have been fine but then lots of more neautral and low saturated stuff would have picked up too strong of an aqua cast. No matter what I do I can’t get the calibration to produce the intense enough colors for her and that title without then making lots of other stuff too saturated. I think it means the scanner just could not see those colors or that the software in the scanner unfortunately remapped the raw data to a somewhat too small colorspace.

It turns out that the home versions are maybe so much tealified in some scenes as more that they were magentified actually. And then lack of wide gamut clipped a few colors badly like her and the “A Long Time Ago…” intro and, to a lesser extent, some other aqua/blu/cyan/teal/turquoise shades and to an even lesser extent a few dark reds and such, throughout. In this scene they seem to have made the Twilek a more wild and intense green though, at least compared to this particular 35mm print. Maybe to make up for lack of blue richness in the Pantoran??

AOTC comp:
35mm ProPhotoRGB wide gamut:

35mm sRGB:

BD REC709 Gamma 2.4:

DVD: REC709 Gamma 2.4:

HDTVD REC709 Gamma 2.4:

TonyWDA said:

MonkeyLizard10 said:

Going back to the other topic of 5.1 audio, another option, although unfortunately not for a lot of movies, is to use the Cinema DTS audio. 1995 would be far enough back for this film to have one.

I’m almost certain that Toy Story never played anywhere with Cinema DTS audio in '95, but it did receive a DTS LaserDisc. If someone can arrange a bit-perfect capture of the soundtrack, it’d be a terrific addition to this project.

Hmm weird, the trailers for it had DTS!

TonyWDA said:

MonkeyLizard10 said:

true, BUT I’ve heard the whole near vs. far field mix thing is a good deal overblown and that a lot of it was pushed by a single mixing studio that apparently wanted to use the idea to prop up their finances and sort of talked all the studios into the ‘critical’ need for it. I’ve read that many say that a lot of the claims pushed to get the whole thing going, upon further examination, didn’t really pan out like they claimed and some say the whole thing caused more trouble and even worse home results in the end, although it seems there is still some arguing over who is correct.

Yeah, it’s quite the hot topic in audio engineering circles. In this context, having as many audio options as possible is always best when all is said and done. It’s less convenient to get the Dolby 5.1 on the print preserved, but a lot easier to get the analog stereo track digitized using AEO Light— especially if the raw scan resolution is well past 2K. That would only be necessary if the scanner couldn’t (or simply didn’t) capture the analog audio along with the image scan or the sound on the capture was too hissy; unfortunately, LaserGraphics ScanStation units are kind of notorious for that. But all things in due time; I’m sure TristAndShout64 will cross that bridge when he gets to it.

Interesting, I’d never heard of AEO Light before. I wonder if it will give better quality audio than the basic Scanstation optical reader. Too bad it doesn’t appear to directly support DNG so will have to maybe batch the track area to TIFF.

Going back to the other topic of 5.1 audio, another option, although unfortunately not for a lot of movies, is to use the Cinema DTS audio. 1995 would be far enough back for this film to have one.

Sadly, not that I know of. That open matte Falcon scene was amazing! I don’t know why didn’t make it a branching option on the disc (or at least a special feature). (there is that compressed capture of the partial 1.90:1 Xenon Digital IMAX open matte, but I’m not sure it is even full HD and it is a far cry from the full IMAX open matte, not the same at all)

I saw it in IMAX 6P Laser 3D, just mindblowing.

Most to all of the associated trailers will also feature Cinema DTS audio as well as the theatrical optical audio.

Audio in this project will be both theatrical optical audio and Cinema DTS (for most to all stuff more recent than 1992).

CourtlyHades296 said:

What about the DTS track for Lion King? It never saw a video release, and the LD only contains AC3.

I haven’t seen Cinema DTS for TLM (re-release) or TLK show up yet.

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timdiggerm said:

MonkeyLizard10 said:

So maybe this is how it looked and then again maybe not.

This is a great summary of a lot of threads around here lol

Haha.

Although, to be clear, just in case someone reads by quickly and misinterprets something, this IS pretty much exactly what the TRAILER for the ROTJ SE did look like. Just not sure sure if the actual feature looked the same as the trailer for it. Also, I do plan to all my trailers and features look extremely close to the actual theatrical look with months of efforts tuning color calibrations to hundreds of frames across various items.

Couldn’t get the trailer done in time for the 40th anniversary of the release of ROTJ, but I can put up these sample frames from the current calibration (which should be pretty close to the final now, other than maybe for black level adjustments, which is a separate thing and will change from trailer to trailer and feature to feature). If I could see a difference between the sRGB gamut and the widegamut version then I also put up a ProPhoto widegamut version as well (whenever there is a second image of the same frame, the second one is the wide gamut version).

Happy 40th!!!

As for are these the colors that the ROTJ SE theatrical release was? I have no idea. Often trailers have different to even very different colors, brightness, tonal curve than associated feature. That said, for the SE you’d think they might have had the final color timing worked out by the time they made these trailers. But perhaps not or perhaps they didn’t bother using updated color timing or perhaps they are very sloppy with trailers and while they were given the final color timing the QC was super random perhaps. So maybe this is how it looked and then again maybe not.

Current funding: $328 of $1245

DylanDrew said:

Just now came across this and wow! I’m so excited to see this.

I’d love to donate as well!

Thanks! This one (AOTC) is already fully funded but see the sister site to this one for more info.
But I also have a Jurassic Park project (closed access to funders only as with most non-SW projects, trailers are usually open access on Youtube but higher quality, less compressed versions, wide gamut (assuming Youttube gets rid of that) mostly donor’s only links) plus tons of trailers that still needs a lot of funding as well as a small, single reel 20+ min segment of ROTS plus a bunch more SW trailers (four ROTS trailers, ROTJ SE trailer, TPM 3D trailer, original ESB unfaded trailer (German), original ESB trailer (only modest color fading), etc.) project that needs funding. I may also have a (most of, one reel, I think the second reel, missing) scan project for The Sure Thing coming after, most likely. And have TONS more trailers coming, that could also always use a lot of funding, have literally dozens upon dozens of trailers, lots of 80s and 90s in particular to get scanned. (Later on, possibly also The Bounty (1984). Maybe eventually Pretty Woman (open matte) but it has molds and would need some deal with a scanner worked out and to see if the mold removal works.)

TonyWDA said:

A friendly reminder that with any mix— Dolby Digital or analog— on the actual print itself, you’re likely getting the “far field” version of the soundtrack, with mixing choices and dynamic range better suited for listening in large auditoriums. In contrast, that same mix is typically adjusted for “near field” listening in significantly smaller environments for the film’s home video release. The former mix is prepared knowing it will play from speakers a considerable distance from the listener(s); it also considers the architectural impact of the soundtrack in that room to give the audience a full, reflected acoustic effect. The latter is more direct and sometimes may even sound more detailed— or, at least, unmarred by the aural impact of a large auditorium because you’re sitting much closer to speakers with smaller drivers in a smaller room.

Neither is necessarily better or worse than the other (not always, anyway…). Still, it’s always best to consider the differences between what’s on a print and what typically ends up on the home video release. An excellent example of everything mentioned here can be heard in Aladdin’s theatrical and home video versions. In the scene where the Cave of Wonders begins to fall apart, the differences in the intensity of the sound effects are night and day. Pay particular attention to the moment when the lamp shrine bursts into flames. Not even the LaserDisc audio, an otherwise fine track all around, sounds that aggressive. You can hear the DVD/35mm audio comparison here:

All this is to say yes, you will want to include the analog track— for posterity if nothing else. =)

true, BUT I’ve heard the whole near vs. far field mix thing is a good deal overblown and that a lot of it was pushed by a single mixing studio that apparently wanted to use the idea to prop up their finances and sort of talked all the studios into the ‘critical’ need for it. I’ve read that many say that a lot of the claims pushed to get the whole thing going, upon further examination, didn’t really pan out like they claimed and some say the whole thing caused more trouble and even worse home results in the end, although it seems there is still some arguing over who is correct.

zerocool said:

It would just be nice to have a one stop source to know what theatrical or otherwise rare sound tracks can be found if one wants to sync them to a bluray or udh bluray or even webdl in some cases. 😃

The theatrical ac3 5.1 mix for starwars episode one is on its japanese laserdisc.

The original mixes for a lot of 90s/00s can be found on Cinema DTS discs such as for example for TPM mentioned above.

I think I may have finally found a working base for the scanner machine’s calibration! And it also seems likely that the feature and trailer will now use the same WB/tint (or at worst maybe +/- 1) as the rest on the same stock. It will probably take up to ten working days to fine-tune it and verify it across tons of frames across a few trailers and bits of a couple of features. But if it all works out, finally I should have a 1.0 of the calibration ready and can start processing final 1.0 versions of everything. I hope!

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$308 of $1245

current funding: $283/$1245

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SpenceEdit said:

Anybody have a way to obtain this? It’s dead on Myspleen.

There is the 35mm scan project under way, the 35mm has no teal tint.

SpacemanDoug said:

does anyone have the full run of the FX captures?

I don’t need the SOAPnet versions because I already have those, but I am interested in the FX recordings, particularly with season 5

supposedly some alternate footage aired in that run for that season

I probably have some to all of S5 on VHS.
I don’t know offif they would be like the SOAPNet or FX or maybe neither.

ykarus1974 said:

Oh those screen captures are beautiful! I am not sure I understand… what do you mean by “properly mapped” ?

You treated the images as if they were REC709 which is a small REC709/sRGB color gamut and SDR dynamic range, but the images were stored as full REC2020 which has a wide REC2020 color gamut and HDR dynamic range. If you do that then the colors become very dull since the same coordinates in REC2020 gamut in REC709/sRGB gamut are much to close to unsaturated and not far enough out and also the black and white points are different so it looks dull and low in contrast. You need use something like MadvR and set it to playback converting to REC709.

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