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MeBeJedi

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10-Mar-2003
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10-Feb-2025
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Post
#95962
Topic
Letterboxed Widescreen vs. Anamorphic Widescreen Discussion
Time
"I never could get him to come join our softball league. "

I'm guessing he's not geeky enough to join an SW board as well. (Not that that says much about me, either.)

"It's because the image is meant to be stretched horizontally to the correct aspect ratio on widescreen displays"

Correct. Unfortunately, the impression that is being given is that, in order to "unsqueeze" the picture for a 16x9 display, it must first be "squeezed", and this is not the case. The picture is simply made taller (simplification!) to begin with (i.e produced with an incorrect aspect ratio), so that if one could widen the picture, it would have the correct aspect ratio and have higher resolution to boot. If one cannot widen the picture, then the extra resolution is removed instead.

"Squeeze" is a terrible misnomer to use to describe "anamorphic" DVDs.

I'm really tired of DVDs now.





(j/k)


[EDIT]

"then the extra resolution is removed instead." Yes, I am quoting myself. This makes me think of Joe Kane's proposal to add a second stream of video information to be added to the regular 720x480 information (yes, zion, I know about pixel sizes - I just think we've opened more than enough cans of worms here.) This would have the benefit of having an SD quality stream for existing DVD players, and the ability to bump up to an HD quality stream for newer players which would combine the added resolution. This idea, of course, did not come to pass. Blue-Ray and HD-DVD will be bringing us HD material instead.
Post
#95919
Topic
Letterboxed Widescreen vs. Anamorphic Widescreen Discussion
Time
"It's the result of squeezing a wide image into 720x480 pixels."

http://www.widescreen.org/images/st4_43_anam.jpg

http://www.widescreen.org/images/st4_43_nonanam.jpg

These two images are identical horizontally, despite one being anamorphic and one being letterbox. Where, exactly, is this "extra" horizontal resolution that should obviously come from squeezing an image larger than 720 pixels wide into a frame that is only 720 pixels wide?

Look at the black bars at the tops and bottoms. The anamorphic picture has smaller black bars, because there is more vertical resolution (in regards to the actual picture information), as you, yourself stated. This has the effect of making the people look taller and skinnier, which looks similar to a picture that is squeezed horizontally, but in fact isn't - in this particular case.

Now, if the anamorphic picture and 4x3 picture are identical width-wise, but the vertical resolution of the anamorphic transfer makes the people look skinnier, then there are two solutions to correctly display the original aspect ratio. 1) Remove or convert 4 vertical lines into 3 throughout the picture, to reduce the vertical height [4x3 display] or 2) stretch the picture horizontally [16x9 display]. However, the image that is being stretched is the original 720 pixel wide image!

A 1920 pixel-wide image cannot be "squeezed" into a 720 pixel-wide like anamorphic film - it must be resized, resulting in lost resolution. A good analogy is this - take a large JPEG, say 100x100, and resize it to 50x50. Now, if you zoom in on the picture so that it is the same size on your screen as it originally was, you will see that much information is lost. Similarly if you resized the image down to 50x50, and then resize it again to 100x100, again, you will see that visual information is lost.

The anamorphic process does squeeze the visual information of film into a smaller space, but when the smaller frame is expanded, it is still the same picture! Nothing is lost in the process (or practically nothing.). This process cannot be duplicated in the DVD transfer process, because it would require a lossless codec. Since 720x480 is not high-definition resolution, information was definitely lost when scaling down from a 1920x1080 high-definition master, and MPEG, AC3 and DTS are all necessary lossy compression techniques for putting the entire transfer on a DVD. Therefore "anamorphic DVD transfers" are not the same as "anamorphic film transfers."

I will state this correction, however. Compared to a letterbox transfer, an anamorphic transfer does have more vertical resolution, but I did mispeak when I said it was added. It would be better to say that the vertical resolution is decreased for a straight letterbox transfer. Nonetheless, an anamorphic DVD does have more vertical resolution than a non-anamorphic one. To state that an anamorphic DVD is squeezed horizontally to fit into a 720 pixel-wide space would imply that it has greater horizontal resolution than a letterbox transfer in the same 720 pixel-wide space, and this is wholly unsupportable. The very fact that the only change made to an anamorphic transfer to make it fit into a 4x3 display is to reduce the vertical resolution shows the problem in your logic. If the image were truly "squeezed", then horizontal resolution would have to be removed as well, to fit into a 4x3 space, and this isn't the case. The horzontal resolution of the DVD image, as it is stored on the DVD, remains the same regardless. It is, in fact, the display of this image in a wide aspect ratio that makes the difference. This is why 4x3 tvs with an anamorphic mode can display an anamorphic picture: the vertical scan lines are brought closer together, but there is absolutely no change made whatsoever to the horizontal picture information! There is no "unsqueezing" necessary for the 4x3 anamorphic mode, because the picture was never "squeezed" in the first place. A 16x9 TV reproduces this effect by stretching the horizontal picture wider. Both TVs affect only one dimension of the picture in order to recreate the correct aspect ratio.
Post
#95911
Topic
Letterboxed Widescreen vs. Anamorphic Widescreen Discussion
Time
"Sorry if I wasn't clearer."

It's not that you weren't clear, simply that you took my sentence out of context.

What DVD does to get around this is increase the vertical resolution. Since the pixels can't change shape, you add more pixels to the other dimension. Therefore, for a 4x3 image, one of every four lines are ignored, so that the vertical image is in the correct aspect ratio of the horizontal image. However, when the image is displayed on a 16x9 set, all of the vertical lines are displayed, and the horizontal pixels are wider to make the correct aspect ratio.

Point being, nothing is squeezed into a frame in a DVD transfer. It's quite the opposite, since more vertical lines of visual information are added, which is why anamorphic transfers take up more space than letterbox transfers.


First of all, I was specifically comparing anamorphic and letterbox transfers, and as you just stated, "I know anamorphic has more vertical resolution. What is false is that vertical resolution is added (your words". In contex, what I said was correct, and in fact echoed by you in this statement. If it has "more vertical resolution", then it follows that resolution was added.

Secondly, people keep thinking that one can "squeeze" the 1920x1080 image into a 720x480 frame, and recreate the original 1920x1080 frame (which is done with special lenses with film), and this is not possible. The 1920x1080 image must be resized to 720x480 before being stored on the DVD. Any picture displayed at a resolution other than 720x480 from this transfer is the result of math calculations designed to recreate the lost visual information.

If you have a display of a 1920x1080 transfer, and a display of a 720x480 transfer upconverted to 1080, they are not of the same quality. In the case of the latter, much of the original information is lost, and visual artifacts resulting from the upconversion will be present - the amount and quality of the artifacts being dependant on the quality of your scaler.
Post
#95904
Topic
Letterboxed Widescreen vs. Anamorphic Widescreen Discussion
Time
"This is utterly false."

No, it is quite true. An anamorphic transfer has more vertical resolution than a letterbox transfer of the same film. Any website will tell you this. If this were not the case, then an anamorphic transfer would have absolutely no visual advantage over an letterbox transfer whatsoever.

It is precisely this extra resolution that was dropped (old solution) or is now downconverted (4 lines to 3 lines) that brings an anamorphic transfer down to a 4x3 letterbox transfer. If you do not believe this to be the case, then please explain why downconversion is necessary in the first place - or do you believe there's no downconversion taking place at all? What, precisely, do you think "Enhanced for Widescreen TV" means?

DVD is certainly a tricky beast to understand.
Post
#95873
Topic
Letterboxed Widescreen vs. Anamorphic Widescreen Discussion
Time
"I there any noticeable loss in quality if you were to get the NTSC audio and do a "time-compress"; basically speeding it up without changing the pitch?"

I've done this for various projects, including SW, in Vegas. Something like a 4% slow-down would not be very noticeable. IIRC, once you start getting past a 1 to 2 second difference (between the master soundtrack and the converted soundtrack), you start hearing audible artifacts (i.e. generally unnoticeable or dismissiable sounds, such as clicks, start developing more of a presence, and can interfere with one's recollection of how the audio should sound.)

As to speeding it up, I don't think it would cause as much of a problem - except to really anal people with perfect pitch. (j/k!)

To be honest, I myself, would probably notice that it was sped up, but that's just me. I think all audio should be played at 33 1/3.
Post
#95790
Topic
Letterboxed Widescreen vs. Anamorphic Widescreen Discussion
Time
"I would submit that a picture with one of every four lines of information removed wholesale would be immediately recognizable as such, and virtually unwatchable."

That's fine, but I added more quotes. Regardless, it happened. I would also remind you that an anamorphic transfer can have up to 33% more video information than a 4x3 letterbox transfer of the same film. Removing 1 of 4 lines simply brings the picture down to the resolution of a 4x3 letterbox transfer.

"You've quoted too much! A fact I will now use against you: I simply reject any statement like this written by someone who asserts, "you probably would not be able to tell the difference between anamorphic and non-anamorphic DVDs"."

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. It's very difficult to notice the difference between an anamorphic and non-anamorphic transfer on 4x3 tvs. You are more than welcome to reject whatever you want - it changes nothing.

"If this "toss one of four lines" scenario is true, how come there's never been any explanation of exactly which lines are discarded? Do you start at the top and go, "keep, keep, keep, toss; keep, keep, keep, toss...," or do you try to keep lines with different information than their nearest neighbours (and therefore preserve detail, but introduce local distortion), or do you do something else as yet unexplained?"

So now the entire technical process must be explained in full detail to make you believe it? I'm not sure that such an explanation is worth my time. This aspect is really not that important to me to prove - I'm simply explaining it to the people who are interested. I'll let them make up their own minds.

"I say you can and do, because on playback, the 720 x 480 non-square pixels cover the same area as the "original" 854 x 480 square pixels."

Yet the DVD frame is still 720x480 - it can never be anything but, or else you have an illegal frame size and the DVD player will not recognize it. You are confusing storage of the information with playback of the information. Any other frame size extrapolated from that is creating visual information not specifically found in the original frame. If you resize the 1920x1080 video to 720x480 for the DVD frame, you will never be able to recreate the same 1920x1080 video - it would simply be an extrapolated fascimile. What you are arguing is akin to saying that one can recreate the original AVI from the compressed MPEG, and that simply isn't the case. A lot of video information is lost in the process, never to be regained.

Anamorphic video means recreating the original transfer from the compressed transfer, and DVD simply cannot do this. Otherwise, there'd be no need for scalers.

"Fact is, I could write a widescreen DVD page and say anything I liked, but it wouldn't make it true. A half-truth, oft repeated, is still not fact."

So now, you are stating that all my sources are made up and/or incorrect? That's a rather dubious and self-serving presumption.
Post
#95786
Topic
Letterboxed Widescreen vs. Anamorphic Widescreen Discussion
Time
"Also, I should point out that at no time do any DVD players simply toss out one out of every four lines for display on a 4:3 set. That would simply look way too crappy. There's a resizing algorithm that's used"

Actually, they do, or at least they did. I've not seen anything official stating that this procedure is no longer used to some extent.

Some of the first-generation players didn't do a very good job of 'downconverting' the anamorphic image for standard TVs. A lot of shimmering was created. This happened because when a player downconverts an image, it (basically) removes one line of resolution for every four. Different players do this in different ways, but generally the older players didn't do near as nice a job as today's do.

http://dvd.ign.com/mail/2000-08-11.html

On a 4:3 TV without doing the 'squeeze', the DVD player must be set to '4:3' within it's setup menu. This forces the player to 'downconvert' the anamorphic image by removing some of the scan lines. This plays the image back at the correct proportion, but obviously loses some of the original resolution. It can also introduce unwanted artifacts, especially on scrolling credits etc.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?&postid=511908#post511908

When it comes to DVDs, anamorphic DVDs are specially encoded to include more visual information than standard DVDs. When an anamorphic DVD is played on a standard 4:3 TV, every fourth line of this extra resolution is ignored. (Keep in mind that your DVD player needs to be set for a 4:3 TV.) You still get a superb picture and you probably would not be able to tell the difference between anamorphic and non-anamorphic DVDs.

http://www.widescreen.org/dvd_anamorphic.shtml

Video Performance: Anamorphic Downconversion

This was an interesting face-off between the Toshiba 9100 and the Sony 7700. Sony players have long been regarded the heavyweight champs of downconversion for their remarkable ability to eliminate the artifacts that are involved with the process. But this comes at the expense of a noticeably softer picture from the Sony players on 4:3 displays with anamorphic widescreen material and such was definitely the case with the 7700. Looking at the two players via S-video inputs on my old Pioneer SDP-K5193 RPTV the Sony definitely presented a softer picture that was a bit more refined presenting motion. The 9100's picture was clearly sharper and more detailed, and for my money eliminated downconversion artifacts to the point that they weren't a distraction. I think the trade off the Toshiba offers of a few downconversion artifacts for a noticeably sharper picture is one that most people will prefer.


http://www.dvdfile.com/tech/review/players/toshiba_sd9100.htm

There is a new section with DVD VE that is not included on the LD version, i.e., the anamorphic test pattern section, which can be found at Title 20. These patterns can aid you in finding the best DVD player in your price range. With these patterns, you can see how well the DVD player is able to take an anamorphic image and letterbox it for 4:3 TVs. This is important if you have no plans on purchasing a 16:9 TV, because some players actually cut off a portion of the picture during this transition.

http://www.sdinfo.com/volume_4_3/dvdve.html

This nicely segues into an issue that has discouraged some studios from fully embracing this superior video format. There are a limited number of 16:9 monitors and 4:3 monitors capable of performing the required vertical squeeze in the hands of consumers. As a result, many DVD owners are forced to use the player's hardware to convert the anamorphic widescreen images to 4:3. On inexpensive players, this is done typically by throwing away every fourth horizontal scan line. As you would expect, this could cause an even more visually annoying kind of jaggedness than 4:3 letterboxing. But several manufacturers, Sony and Pioneer to name but two, have developed more sophisticated algorithms to perform the conversion that are quite nice to view.

http://www.dvdfile.com/news/special_report/production_a_z/anamorphic.htm

When I showed the difference in the level of detail on my friend's 4x3 tv which had anamorphic squeeze, it was noticeable on very fine details, but not on the picture overall.

"Many films are telecined or scanned to HD resolution before the DVD is made. Let's say, for argument's sake, that the resolution is 1080p -- 1920 x 1080. Or, let's say that we're looking at a frame from Episode II or III, which originates from 1080p. Whatever: we're starting with 1920 pixels wide, by 1080 pixels high. Those pixels are square, by the way.

Now we go make a DVD.

The horizontal width goes from 1920 pixels to 720 pixels -- a compression of 8:3, or 2.66:1. The vertical height goes from 1080 pixels to 480 pixels -- a compression of 2.25:1. Ergo, exactly analogously to film, the image is squashed horizontally more than it is squashed vertically, and everything in the frame appears too tall and skinny."


But your argument misses a key point. The anamorphic process attempts to restore the original resolution from the "compressed" frame. As far as I know, no DVD players attempt to recreate the original 1920x1080 from the 720x480 frame. You are simply talking about resizing the original video (lowering the resolution) to a size more compatible with DVD, but this is only half the equation.

QED, you cannot "squeeze" a picture larger than 720x480 into a DVD frame.
Post
#95751
Topic
Letterboxed Widescreen vs. Anamorphic Widescreen Discussion
Time
"So the image is squashed horizontally using a special lense to go from widescreen to regular. When projected it is then unsquashed using another special lense from regular back out to wide. Am I correct in thinking because this is done optically, information is not lost??"

For the most part, yes.

"... there's no 'but'... They both share the same term because the both squash the image horizontally to store a wide-image in a regular-frame. Is film a lossless process, but DVD the information is lost?"

The problem is, you keep thinking that the "video" is squeezed horizontally, and it's not. You can't "squash" the pixels - you can only stretch them. The width of the video as it is stored on the DVD is the width of the video. If you were to "squeeze" the video to fit it into the space on the DVD, you would have to lose lines of video (or they would be combined with their neighbors.) The pixels themselves remain the same size regardless, so to answer your question: yes, anamorphic does not lose resolution when squeezed, because film has a tremendously higher resolution (i.e. smaller "pixels", if you will), than video, which is only 720x480.

What DVD does to get around this is increase the vertical resolution. Since the pixels can't change shape, you add more pixels to the other dimension. Therefore, for a 4x3 image, one of every four lines are ignored, so that the vertical image is in the correct aspect ratio of the horizontal image. However, when the image is displayed on a 16x9 set, all of the vertical lines are displayed, and the horizontal pixels are wider to make the correct aspect ratio.

Point being, nothing is squeezed into a frame in a DVD transfer. It's quite the opposite, since more vertical lines of visual information are added, which is why anamorphic transfers take up more space than letterbox transfers.

Film, on the other hand, takes the same image and does squeeze it into a smaller frame.

Film squeezes the same picture information horizontally, and DVD adds picture information vertically.Thus, while both appear to make people tall and skinny, it is for very different reasons.

Whew, I hope that helped.
Post
#95727
Topic
Letterboxed Widescreen vs. Anamorphic Widescreen Discussion
Time
"A DVD Image is never stretched vertically, but horizontally."

I was referring to how it was stored on the DVD. In video playback, it is presented stretched horizontally.

"Film and DVD Anamorphic do the same thing, hence the same name."

Not really, but again, it's a fine distinction. Anamorphic film and DVDs may look similar, but they are achieved using very different methods.
Post
#95717
Topic
Letterboxed Widescreen vs. Anamorphic Widescreen Discussion
Time
What's not the same? The picture for 16:9 DVDs is shrunk / visually compressed into a smaller frame, too, just like its film counterpart. It's not what we're doing, exactly, because we're starting with stuff that's too small and stretching it vertically to fill the space, but this is just a very special case. Usually, working from an HD master, there's more than enough resolution and the visual compression / shrinking is obvious."

This is incorrect. The picture for a 16:9 transfer on DVD is stretched out vertically. A film that is anamorphically transferred is squeezed into a smaller frame by use of optics. In both cases, the aspect ratio is changed. The process that you are referring to maintains the aspect ratio.
Post
#95699
Topic
Letterboxed Widescreen vs. Anamorphic Widescreen Discussion
Time
"So anamorphic, really means reformed, and in the way we use it in our terminology regarding the OT restoration from LD's, reforming is exactly what happens during the process of making an anamorphic transfer
After all, anamorphic lenses are actually distortion lenses... "


But in film terms, an anamorphic transfer is where the picture is shrunk (visually compressed?) into a smaller frame. When applied to DVDs, it is incorrect usage of the established terminology.
Post
#95647
Topic
.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released)
Time
"You wouldn't need separate 4:3 and widescreen subtitles for yours, MBJ, since it will be letterboxed.

Also, you can control the fade-in/out of these subtitles easily using maestro."


Actually, whether I had an anamorphic or letterbox transfer (though both are likely), it wouldn't matter since I place my subs right below the picture, and I do control the fade in/out quite easily in Vegas as well.
Post
#95590
Topic
.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released)
Time
"I have done the exact thing you are talking about, I matched a dvd subtitle file to the original text and aligned it perfectly for both widescreen and 4:3 tvs."

If you are referring to my suggestion, then that's excellent news. I personally feel that's the best route overall. Player-generated subtitles bug me, and I like to be able to control the fade in/out of the subtitles. I matched the timing of Greedo's subtitles quite nicely (though I used a different font.)