.Mac.

TV’s Frink said:

For what it’s worth, I hate this guy’s design.

He’d fit right in at Jabba’s palace, unfortunately.

That’s it, one quarter portion for you then 😉

It’s interesting to me, though, you think that poorly of him. I actually appreciated his design probably because I saw it as an attempt to be the “mediator”, if you will, for the better designs and the poorer ones that have been created in SW. I guess I wasn’t bothered either because I thought the personality of his character was interesting too. But I realize this is a whole 'nother topic for another thread.

So to bring this back on track, Ady’s skills at digital enhancements (like what they did for Unkar Plutt and what he did for the cantina) is of course the way to go for enhancing many of the background puppets in Jabba’s palace 😃

It’s perfectly fine to have the “bad looking puppets” in the background of shots (that is if the shot is important to keep to begin with), but it’s when they are frequently and unnecessarily brought up to the foreground as they are seen laughing, that’s when their costuming stands out and it just looks silly. So yeah, with nostalgia aside, these certain close-up shots can be removed without tarnishing the quality of the scene 😃

NeverarGreat said:

The view of many people on this forum is that there’s something wrong with the Jabba’s palace sequence. It’s more open to debate as to what, exactly, is the culprit, but there are plenty of candidates which have been suggested in the past:

-There are too many poorly designed muppets
-The plan makes little to no sense, or if it does it relies too much on luck (or the Force)
-The palace sequence drags on too long
-There’s a musical number that serves no narrative function
-Characters (such as Boba Fett) are poorly defined or (in the case of Han Solo) overly quippy.
-The palace seems at times like a heavily defended fortress and other times like the Mos Eisley cantina in terms of security
-The action and effects, especially on the sail barge, are stodgy.

The last time I marathoned the entire trilogy, it was abundantly clear that there was something wrong with ROTJ compared to the previous installments. From the first act to the last, I was continually disappointed in how little of the film really resonated. I have faith that Adywan can solve much of the stodgy action and effects on the sail barge, but believe that the problems with the palace sequence go beyond superficial fixes and require editorial changes.

The reason I chose the Wookiee scene to cut is that the scene is really emblematic of the problems in this section of the film. To sum up the scene, Leia is apparently able to bring a high explosive and an uncuffed, violent Wookiee twice her size into Jabba’s audience chamber, no questions asked. It really takes the threat out of Jabba’s security if anyone dressed like a bounty hunter can get in and threaten his life with no repercussions. Even How It Should Have Ended made fun of the thermal detonator.

This, all of this. I see we’re definitely on the same page, NeverarGreat, in terms of what things can be handled better about the Jabba sequence (assuming you agree with that list you just typed), but it seems it’s just how it can be improved is where we differ. I’m still not at all convinced that having Leia be involved with bringing in Chewie is a good idea/plan. I totally do understand your reasoning with your suggestion, it’s just I’d much prefer to steer away from having her giving up Chewie. Her motivation in doing this (based on just your dialogue as it is) would not be deduced to those who aren’t here reading about it, and so it would confuse most audience members because, really, how could there be no other possible way for her to get in without sacrificing Chewie? You never surrender one of your friends in hopes of getting another, otherwise you’re back at square one (or as it turns out, in a worse scenario)! That’s what I hated about this sequence originally.

Plus, you mentioned that the dance sequence serves no narrative purpose, which I totally agree and hope that gets removed too (unless Ady wanted to do a condensed, hybrid of the SE and OUT shots featuring just the dancers with new music [tribal drums/Japanese Taiko-esque] and moved to the intro of Jabba - that I’m completely cool with), and so if that were totally removed, where else would your short scene fit?

So, ideally, I’m of the opinion that the sequences would work best as: Torcher chamber (I know many don’t like this but it’s actually needed to establish the jobs that the droids will be given), then after that a wipe to an establishing, scenic, night shot of the palace outside (without a distracting frog slurping up some thing), then it continues with the shots of Leia sneaking around inside the palace (we don’t have to know it’s her before she takes off the mask either; although, prior to this, a shot of her in disguise that establishes that she is already inside, just like Lando is, would be a good idea).

NeverarGreat said:

.Mac. said:

NeverarGreat said:

.Mac. said:

Do we need to see Leia gain admittance though? Just like with Lando, we didn’t see how he got in; he just is already in, which could work the same for Leia also.

Right, with this idea Leia is already in the palace and has probably been there for a while.

If she has already been in for a while, then that tells me she was already accepted, and so then it still makes zero sense for her to surrender Chewie for no apparent benefit. I understand what you were going for with the idea, but we don’t need to see her get the “You go girl” nod from Fett. My point is she could’ve already been accepted in by Fett and everyone else, just as Lando was.

Also with the removal of this whole scene, we then won’t have to worry about seeing Lando pulling down his disguise and essentially telling the audience, “Hey it’s me guys!”

It doesn’t make sense that she would have been accepted like Lando. Lando was a known scoundrel. It’s reasonable to believe that he would have the cred to be accepted into Jabba’s service as someone who recently lost their gig as a city administrator and has fallen on hard times. Leia, on the other hand, is instantly recognizable as a former senator and member of the Rebellion. There’s no way she’d be accepted sight unseen without a really good disguise and plausible Bounty Hunter credentials. Enlisting Boba Fett to help ‘capture’ Chewie solves this problem. Chewie is her price of admission, even if it’s inconvenient later on.

I like your idea but also think it’s making this more complicated than it needs to be 😃 because there’s no way you’d be able to explain that notion to the audience; they are still just seeing her giving up Chewie. Let’s just expect that the palace doesn’t actually know it’s Lando in disguise, and just the same they don’t know that is is Leia as Boushh. How she got in, it may have been different than Lando’s method, sure, but we don’t have to see how. Besides, how would they confirm if it was Lando or not? Did he have to take off his helmet and say, “Yeah it’s me.”? If so, then wouldn’t Leia also have to take off her mask and explain, “No, I’m not actually Princess Leia. I get that a lot, though.”?

NeverarGreat said:

.Mac. said:

Do we need to see Leia gain admittance though? Just like with Lando, we didn’t see how he got in; he just is already in, which could work the same for Leia also.

Right, with this idea Leia is already in the palace and has probably been there for a while.

If she has already been in for a while, then that tells me she was already accepted, and so then it still makes zero sense for her to surrender Chewie for no apparent benefit. I understand what you were going for with the idea, but we don’t need to see her get the “You go girl” nod from Fett. My point is she could’ve already been accepted in by Fett and everyone else, just as Lando was.

Also with the removal of this whole scene, we then won’t have to worry about seeing Lando pulling down his disguise and essentially telling the audience, “Hey it’s me guys!”

Do we need to see Leia gain admittance though? Just like with Lando, we didn’t see how he got in; he just is already in, which could work the same for Leia also.

Possessed said:

Even if it doesn’t make it any more sensible, removing the scene of chewie being captured would be a good thing just because it’s so awful.

doubleofive said:

I guess seeing Chewie for the first time emerging from the shadows would be pretty cool.

To both: exactly right 😃

Still doesn’t explain why you would jail the two famous smugglers in the same cell…

Are Gamorrean guards supposed to be smart? I never got that impression 😄

JEDIT: Or perhaps the guards were tired of cleaning up any mess after other cell mates would shred each other apart, and since they figure Chewie and Han at least get along with each other, that’s less clean-up? Lol, who knows, but this is an example for when it’s applicable to use the imagination since it doesn’t need to be explained why.

doubleofive said:

But seriously, you shouldn’t have to sit with people watching your edit and saying “Luke just finished reading Obi-wan’s journals, but Leia and Lando have been reporting to him in the meantime.”

That’s where the new dialogue from 3PO would be handy… Not all has to be explained, of course. The audience is capable of connecting the dots when given just the right amount of info 😉

Jani-wan said:

ray_afraid said:

Is there any way to make the rescue plan make sense?

Can’t think of any.
It is a mess.
But I don’t think there is anything you can do, without reshooting this part of movie.

I believe it is certainly possible to improve it. It requires a little bit of imagination (as some cases are with Star Wars), but the most important step, as I’ve already suggested before, is to remove that scene of Leia/Boushh bringing in Chewie. Scenes like this, which deviate too long from the plot, unnecessarily drag on the overall sequence with Jabba anyway. So with nostalgia aside, it would work better to have both Lando and Leia already in the palace in their disguises, who have infiltrated and are learning what they can about Jabba and his palace; they would theoretically be reporting back to Luke when possible. It should then be inferred that Chewie gets captured some other (not important enough to know how) way. It’s when Luke hears about or senses Chewie’s capture (and likely sensed Leia’s too) that he sends the expendable droids (even if he still cares for them) in hopes it will buy time to complete what he needs to do before finally arriving and settling the situation himself. I’ve suggested before that he could be finishing reading Ben’s journals, which is a good enough reason why A) he was able to build a new lightsaber and already put it in R2, B) how he seemed to have gained significant wisdom since ESB, and C) why he wasn’t there with the others at the beginning of the rescue. Then, lastly, it would be helpful if there could possibly be some new, small bits of expository dialogue between 3PO and R2 while they journey to the palace, so the audience understands the (aforementioned) current situation better (again, I already suggested before some potential lines).

I doubt that the rescue sequence could ever be made to make perfect sense, with the limitation of available footage, but with certain changes and the imagination, it sure can make better sense 😃

nhoj3 said:

My previous post proposing a revised crawl abandoned the idea of front loading the Dagobah scenes. Check it out and let me know what you think!

I did read it and thought that was actually a damn good, well-worded crawl 😃 Far better than what I came up with while I brainstormed this concept long ago. I also felt this was the best possible way to have it so Luke meets with Yoda again before ROTJ, to have it worded as such in the crawl (which can then keep the proposed scenes in their original places), but, just as you admit: Why did Luke wait to ask “the big question”… that’s the exact question that held me back from going along with it completely. It makes no sense to me that Luke wouldn’t be asking that pressing question while he is being trained again. Or, as already discussed earlier, some people here can interpret it that he did already ask and Yoda kept refusing to answer until the time of his death bed - I just cannot find a way to buy that logic either. Yoda, at this point, is now fully aware that Luke was told and has zero reason to continue holding back the truth from him. While it was absolutely a worthwhile idea to consider, those are my reasons why I abandoned that.

I’m curious, nhoj3, did you catch my previous post that explains an alternate idea for how Luke could have learned what he knows, from discovering journals at Ben’s hut? What are your honest thoughts on that? For that matter, have you read my ROTJ wishlist (linked in my sig)? You strike me as somebody who would enjoy a big read 😄 And so you know where I’m coming from concerning ROTJ, if you didn’t already.

Edit:

ChainsawAsh said:

The ordering of scenes I proposed, in my opinion, won’t completely kill the pacing, especially if you remove - or dramatically shorten - the Obi-Wan scene. I think it also helps to streamline the convoluted rescue attempt plot. It would be a slightly slower opening for a SW movie, but I think it might work. I’m considering doing a quick and dirty edit using that structure myself just to see how it works pacing-wise.

You’d for sure have to include the bit about Luke realizing who exactly Leia is, though, otherwise it would be way out from left field when he reveals this news to her. How could he have figured it out by himself? If you do put this together, I’d be curious to check out what you had in mind if you want to share it 😃

JARUS5 said:

The only element from rogue one I would like in a new hope is the Scarif planet as well as a better sense of scale with the death star.

I agree those would be great to see. If possible, though, I also think it’d be nice if we can catch a glimpse of a K-2 droid walking in the hallways of the Death Star. Could be far in the background in the hallways (to help fill in the void in some areas) while Ben is sneaking around, and/or one could walk past our heroes while they are in disguise and waiting for the elevator. I’m positive Ady already considered all of this 😉

So, hypothetically speaking, if adywan were to move the Luke/Yoda scene to the beginning of the movie (and consequently the Obi-Wan scene also, since those two scenes are a linked package), aren’t you guys concerned about the pacing of the 1st act? It would really drag on then. That’s why these kinds of slower, talking scenes are intended for the 2nd act, not the 1st.

Also, where would Luke go after they all leave Tatooine? If he follows Han and co. to the Rebel fleet, can adywan convincingly edit it so he is actually with them during the briefing (and no longer shows up after the briefing is over)? I can’t see it. Or, if he still shows up at the end of it, where was he before that he couldn’t make it on time for the important briefing?

Again, I do think it would’ve made sense that he’d go back to Yoda for more training immediately after ESB, but given the footage there is to work with, I feel it cannot be done in a seamless way; not without re-shoots, which is of course out of the question.

I’m open-minded to any change in ROTJ if it makes sense, improves it, and can be accomplished (as I hope others are too), and so if this is somehow possible, I haven’t read/seen anything that sways me; I only see that it would unnecessarily cause more technical issues.

nhoj3 said:

Luke returning to Yoda to continue his training and admitting that he was wrong to run off half-cocked shows maturity and character growth. That makes “sense” from a storytelling perspective.

I like that and completely agree. And that’s what Luke tries to do, too, after he finishes rescuing Han.

ChainsawAsh said:

I get that, but from the tone of the conversation (Luke’s inflection and Yoda’s sigh), I have no problem interpreting that as Luke having asked the question before and Yoda having avoided answering it.

That’s a fair interpretation. I can almost get behind that, except, I just wouldn’t want to think of Yoda as being a complete ass about the topic (any more than he has been for hiding the truth to begin with). It’s obvious to him that Luke already “knows it to be true”, so with the Loth-cat clearly out of the bag, why drag it out any further?

Just for fun, though, I’m imagining the chat between them could’ve gone:
Luke: "No, Master Yoda, I will not levitate a single pebble until you tell me the truth. I must know."
Yoda: "Drop the subject, or back in the drink your ship will be.
😃

doubleofive said:

If Luke already waited 6-12 months to go back to Yoda, what difference would it make if he went back one week or the next? And doesn’t it make just as much sense for him to have resolved the mission he set himself on before returning to Yoda? “I totally failed to save my friends, and still haven’t saved them, so I’m sure you’re really disappointed in me. Oh, you’re dead.”

Luke can pick up things with the Force without having been trained in ESB. He has the ability to progress without Yoda.

^ This.

I’ll also include what I’ve said before from another thread:

.Mac. said:

I think this does make perfect sense from a logical perspective [to have Luke training with Yoda from the end of ESB to ROTJ], but, the dialogue that is said during this scene keeps it from working nicely, for me anyway. Let me explain why: It would be extremely odd of Luke to be training with Yoda for even a short while and waits until Yoda’s death bed to finally ask that most compelling question - the question that has been echoing in his mind continuously ever since Vader’s revelation. There is no doubt in my mind Luke would ask Yoda this question ASAP. Sure, it’s kind of odd he doesn’t immediately go to Yoda for more training, but it’d be even more odd if he did go there and didn’t ask about Vader right away. So because of this situation, it just wouldn’t work moving this to the beginning of ROTJ - it needs to remain in its original place. I admit, even that deleted scene of Luke finishing his lightsaber is rather cool, but it needs to remain as just a deleted scene [and it sounds like it can’t be salvaged anyway due to its quality].

I said more, including how then he got knowledge for constructing his lightsaber and how the plan for rescuing Han could make better sense, so for anyone curious can click my name of that above quote to see the rest.

nhoj3 said:

I just don’t think that the Ewoks could put together the log traps so quickly and quietly so as not to attract Imperial attention (chopping wood, trees falling, massive logs being hoisted into place, etc.). However, I think that the rope traps are more than acceptable.

Oh, I also disagree that “one burp joke per movie is enough”… I think that number should be zero for Star Wars movies. Along with fart jokes or stepping in excrement.

I’m looking at you Jar Jar.

Couldn’t agree more 😃 Instead of the cluster of logs falling down, I imagine there could be a biggish, fallen log that gets pushed down a hill by some Rebel soldiers (and if possible, along with some Ewoks) which hits just right as an AT-ST makes a step and trips it (without the “break dance”).

Well he attempted to make it scarier with the added glow; just thought there might be an alternative way in doing so.

IIRC he was doing something different than the “lightsaber needle” for the interrogation droid too? Often imagined if that would look scarier if the needle was initially inside its body and it suddenly snaps out to be revealed and hazardously extends forward (all while the droid is slowly approaching Leia in the close-up).

Edit: already brought up.

It’s always stunning to see how just a color correction makes things look so much better. Great work, Ady!

jarbear said:

Editroid said:

ChainsawAsh said:

I think they look like shit.

Feel better?

No.

bear hug

FTFY 😉

Jani-wan said:

Sorry maybe I wasn’t clear.
Actually I said it would be good to see some traffic.

And not talking about visual distraction here. It’s logical, that we see the shuttle breaking off course, that would seemingly cause Vader’s actions.
This is the post I responded to, and somehow got lost:

NeverarGreat said:
So perhaps Tydirium is in a line of shuttles headed for the Death Star but breaks away for the moon, taking it across the path of the destroyer.

And in this situation when Vader says: “Where is that shuttle going?”, it’s really hard to think that his actions and question is the result of feeling Luke’s presence near by.

He suggested that it initially be in line with other crafts, but then it breaks away from the group and soon after Vader sees this shuttle out on its own and off course, hence, “Where is that shuttle going?” It’s no problem at all.

My main question about this sequence is how will Ady be fixing the Executor’s bridge here, and all of the inconsistencies about it. For example (and it’s the big one), that computer terminal is not supposed to be right there in the middle of the walkway, as seen in ESB. That’s why I am in favor of possibly restructuring this sequence a bit and then, in doing so, have it be an Imperial tech from the DS giving the authorization to let them through (which makes sense that the DS has the “keys” to lower the shield, as it was already established in the beginning, instead of the Executor).

Jan-wan, no other cargo/construction craft will even be close to the heroes’ at the time when Vader is seeing/sensing theirs, so there shouldn’t be a problem. Any craft that may be added would be way away in the background with the DS. I wouldn’t see those as a distraction, but rather as a visual enhancement to the work that should be going on to the DS.

Is Ady planning on re-flipping all shots of the flipped DS to be like the unflipped model? Or is he keeping it flipped as it was originally flipped?

Too many flippin’ flips 😄

trimboNZ said:

nhoj3 said:

First time trying to post an image, so please forgive me if it takes a few attempts. I found this concept art for DS1 (Episode III) that I found interesting. I thought that visually it was different enough to separate itself from DS1 (as seen in Episode IV) while still eventually being in the same class of super weapon. Being in an early stage it also helps quell the argument that the Empire couldn’t have built it in the allotted time.

I’m not sure if there’s appetite to replace the iconic DS2 silhouette, but thought that it was at least worth considering.

I think it would be a bad idea to mess with the silhouette, but since we’ve never seen the reverse side of it, there’s a lot of room for creativity there, and that image you posted could still serve as inspiration for additional shots. The DS2 could still be mostly hollow for all we know - only the reactor and the path to it are known to be closed in.

Yeah, while I’d say it is a worthwhile suggestion to consider having a less complete version of the Death Star II (or something entirely new besides another DS, for that matter), the one that we know should remain - it is too iconic. I would love to see varying perspectives/sides of the DS, though. But I am very curious, if Ady were to attempt that, how might he go about it? Would this merit the use of CGI? Photoshop? If only one had access to that original model… It still baffles me that the model creators went through the hard work of creating that entire DS and yet all they filmed were shots from, pretty much, just the one angle.

Tobar said:

Helicopter? We live in the age of the drone.

Oh nice! Yeah I’d strongly encourage the use of a drone for the unit shooting in the Redwoods.

^ Interesting idea! So they could be moving from moon to moon and so now, at the time of ROTJ, they are making work on the forest moon of Endor. That would be visually cool to see some “skeletal” moons 😃