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Laserman

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11-May-2004
Last activity
6-Sep-2007
Posts
903

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Post
#82837
Topic
<strong>The Cowclops Transfers (a.k.a. the PCM audio DVD's, Row47 set) Info and Feedback Thread</strong> (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/82837/action/topic#82837
Time
I find that quite surprising, as I get a major difference in quality going from single layer to dual layer from the X0 laserdisc transfer. I would still be reluctant to put the PCM on a single layer transfer, unless the source capture was considerable worse than what I am getting.
I found the compression artifacts on the original TR47 set to be pretty awful, it was the worst feature of the original TR47 set. (I'm not dissing it, that was just the thing I liked least about the set, and the other bootlegs). It is paticularly noticable in the closeup scenes of the xwing canopies etc. Perhaps its just because I watch it on a big screen that it is particularly noticable, but it is common to all the DVD5 bootlegs I have seen, and is a noticable step down in PQ from the laserdiscs.

With DVD9 blanks being cheaper than purchasing a movie, I don't see the point in going DVD5... Are people here really so cheap that they won't shell out 10 bucks for an excellent copy of any of the OT movies in the best possible quality? Or is it that Dual Layer sets would be less profitable for a seller?
The only reason I can see now for a DVD5 version is if your DVD player won't play a DL DVD+R.
Still though, there is plenty of room to improve on the existing DVD5 sets, I'm looking forward to seeing this one!
Post
#82727
Topic
Thought on de-SE'ing the DVD
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/82727/action/topic#82727
Time
The German SDTV SE transfers are really our best hope for some scenes. Even when grabbing off the best laserdiscs with the best players in the world, because of the letterbox format, you are only getting around 270-300 lines (or much less) of resolution compared to the anamorphic lucas DVDs at 480 - 576 lines.
So even if the laserdiscs where a perfect transfer of the original film (which they're not) the quality level is still a lot lower - more so when you look at the other limitations of the laserdisc format.

If anyone can point me at SDTV version of ESB and ROTJ I would be forever in their debt...
Post
#82719
Topic
Info: How to create your own LD rip of the OT.
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/82719/action/topic#82719
Time

I’ve been thinking of creating a web page with some FAQs and a guide to creating/editing your own OT from laserdisc and other sources and getting them onto DVD.

Would anyone be interested in this if I went ahead?

Topics I want to cover are:

Calibration
3:2 pulldown
PAL vs NTSC
Capture Hardware and software
Colour grading/adjustments
Comb Filters
SVideo/Composite/RGB/Component
Scaling
Codecs
Frame by frame fixes/painting/restoration
Faces vs Defintive vs… etc. LD versions
Laserdisc players and quality
Black/White crush, contrast brighntess and greyscale
0IRE
transcoding for DVD output
PCM vs DD(AC3)
DVD9 vs DVD5
file sizes etc.

Any other topics people would like to see covered?

You can e-mail me with interest/suggestions/experience on “originaltilogy at mudgee dot net” as my PMs are nearly always full here.

Or if you think its a waste of time/stoopid idea, let me know as well!

Post
#82716
Topic
Idea &amp; Info Wanted: Dreaming of the <em>ultimate</em> LD transfer
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/82716/action/topic#82716
Time
We are currently compiling a set of masters transferred form a pioneer X0 player, via a professional broadcast capture system - so it will probably be the best you will get from the NTSC laserdiscs. With any luck it will look better than what most of you see from 'consumer' laserdisc players, so chances are the DVD we make will look better than the LD for 99% of you. The X0 basically has no issues with laser rot or introduced artifacts, so it is probably going to be as good as it gets. Then doing a full colour grade will be the next step, and then putting it down to DVD9 as a final step. The problem is that the faces and definitve laserdiscs are not great masters in the first place - there was dust on the lens elemens during the telecine process, and they have poor colour as well. Some of this can be corrected, but you just can't get something that isn't there to begin with.

I am still holding out hope that the PAL discs will give us something even better, there is definately more detail, better colour and no 3:2 pulldown issues to deal with. Getting it back to 24fps is absolutely no problem. The real task is finding a working PAL laserdisc player of the X0 calibre....
Post
#82715
Topic
<strong>The Cowclops Transfers (a.k.a. the PCM audio DVD's, Row47 set) Info and Feedback Thread</strong> (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/82715/action/topic#82715
Time
A neo scaling DVD player can be had for around $US200 all up, a momitsu V800DX for a little more - either would be a superb investment to get the most out of that screen. Spending huge bucks on that screen to get a substandard picture from DVD for the sake of a few hundred dollars is nuts.

1) CATS is the automatic brightness/contrast setting that is meant to cater for ambient light - its awful, turn it off.
2)The SE discs look better because they are a better transfer from a mostly restored print. The 3:2 has far less errors than the OT laserdiscs had, the colour is far superior, and there is a lot more detail on the discs themselves. So they will look better on your set. If you can get to a high end AV store though, get them to play it through a terranex scaler, then you will really see what a scaler can do

But anyway, we are getting off topic. PM me if you want more details.
Post
#82713
Topic
<strong>The Cowclops Transfers (a.k.a. the PCM audio DVD's, Row47 set) Info and Feedback Thread</strong> (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/82713/action/topic#82713
Time
Hi Daniel.

Dot crawl is exactly what it sounds like, lots of dots crawling around the edges of colour boundaries.
The most obvious places to see it are in the 'LUCASFILM' green logo at the start of EPIV. You will see the edge of the green lucasfilm text have lots of dots craling around it. (Like the perforated edges of a stamp.)
Unfortunately the LD player you have (CLD-V2400) gives a pretty awful picture, and suffers from dot crawl but it can be converted to play the old laserdisc games like space ace etc. so it has some redeeming features. So I am not surprised that the TR47 set looks comparable on your setup.

As far as plasma's go, the 6UY is a damn good screen with good black levels, but it's limitations don't make it a good choice for comparing sets, a normal TV will actually be better for this. The jagged edges you are seeing are mostly a by product of the internal scaler on your plasma screen not getting it right.

(Compared to other plasma screens, the 6UY has good black levels, and contrast ratio, but compared to a CRT it is badly lacking in both areas, as well as colour reproduction - also its internal scaler is good but not great. You really need to run an external scaler for the Laserdisc. and a scaling DVD player like the Momitsu V880DX or the Nueneo or similar to see the best out of that screen. They do a MUCH better job of scaling to the panels native 1366x768 resolution. The screen is truly wasted without a scaling DVD player running from the HDMI port. Also, turn CATS off for the best pic, and I would shell out a couple of hundred to get it professionally calibrated by a pro with a colourimeter, the difference is astounding.)

You should actually see a noticable increase in quality from the new DVD versions we are preparing from LD, vs what you see on your laserdisc player.
This is mainly due to a much better quality laserdisc player being used in the initial transfer. So bizarrely for anyone out there with a laserdisc of the CLD-99 ilk or lower quality unit, the new bootlegs we are working on should look better than your original laserdiscs on your players!

On other topics, jeez guys how tight are you all. 7 Bucks is too much to pay to have a Dual Layer version of the movie????
DL burners are less than $100, and though the media seems really expensive in comparison to DVD5 blanks, really for one off projects like this, 6 or 7 dollars isn't really a problem is it?
That way you get the pure PCM sound, and a big increase in picture quality. If you are capturing from a good laserdisc player (an X9, X0, S9 or 925 etc.) then the difference in DVD9 vs DVD5 is quite drastic.
I can't even fathom the prospect of doing a DVD5 version of the OT anymore - I just can't see the point - unless you own a cruddy 20" TV set or smaller, the difference is instantly noticable. I agree that PCM on a DVD5 is crazy though, it leaves you with so little space for the movie that you are seriously compromising the picture.

Of course, if you are coming off a low end LD player as your source, then a DVD5/9 version with 2.0 DD is probably not going to look any different, so from that pov, it makes sense. But the DVD5 versions have already been done - repeatedly- and you aren't going to get that big an increase in quality out of a new DVD5 version.
Post
#82308
Topic
Thought on de-SE'ing the DVD
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/82308/action/topic#82308
Time
Of course colour is a subjective process, but you can tell when it is just plain wrong also.

If people's faces are bright orange, and white walls are leaning towards blue then you know the process has gone off the rails. As for setting the greyscales/gamma then that is totally subjective - In theory you want all levels of grey clearly visible, but a creative decision might be to darken up the shadow areas for 'mood' and so lose detail in the shadows that was there on the original film.
Also, a CRT cannot display the same colour space as film, so they are radically different.
Post
#81900
Topic
Info Wanted: Delurk and an Inquiry...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/81900/action/topic#81900
Time
Jeez, hope you're feeling better SilverWook!
I have 35mm, 16mm, Super8 and 8mm scanning facilities, so can pull from any of those formats to a super hi rez digital file. If you have anything worth transferring, or would like to preserve something that is fading, please drop me a line! Good copies of the old stuff on film is getting more and more rare, at least once it is in the digital realm it doesn't degrade any further...

Post
#81664
Topic
Info: what can i do to help?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/81664/action/topic#81664
Time
It tends to be a bit below BETA SP in quality, mainly because of its composite nature. The video image was 'downmixed' to composite before recording onto the disc. This gives all the tradtional problems that composite video brings. If it was kept in YUV before recording, it would have been a cleaner format, but as it is, it is still the best of the analogue formats available to the home consumer. So if you fed a betacam SP deck a composite signal, the quality of it vs LD would be pretty close.
So its much better than betamax or VHS, but nowhere near as good as DVD.
Also, the SN ratio on a lot of players (especially Sony) was poor, so the player makes a HUGE difference to the quality of the image you get from a laserdisc.

Now of course you can find laserdiscs that look great and DVDs that look crappy, but the best laserdisc transfer doesn't look as good as the best DVD transfers by quite a margin. Also, the transfers were often of a lower quality than they are today due partly to consumers not being picky enough (i.e. When comparing to VHS, even an average LD transfer looked good), and partly due to the telecine technology advances in recent years. You could probably prooduce a much better laserdisc today than in the 90s.

Often Laserdiscs have a better 5.1 surround track than the DVD release of the same movie. This isn't anything to do with the laserdisc format itself, but more that many DVDs have a compromised 5.1 soundtrack - they remixed it so it would still sound good when played in mono or stereo. The LD 5.1 soundtracks were only intended for 5.1 so sometimes you get a much bettr S/T on the laserdisc version of the movie (HEAT is a good example, the sound is outrageously better on the LD) But when the 5.1 mix is the same on the LD and the DVD, they sound identical.
Post
#81658
Topic
Thought on de-SE'ing the DVD
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/81658/action/topic#81658
Time
There are so many ways you could do it. You could roto a matte for the sabre, you could use the keyer to pull a matte, you could use a travelling selection, you could hand paint each frame etc. etc.
If you want to get an intro to combustion there is a simple and quick tutorial here
http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2004/03_mar/tutorials/ceyeaeguy1.htm
and buckets of others on the web
Post
#81584
Topic
Thought on de-SE'ing the DVD
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/81584/action/topic#81584
Time
Well, obviously in the second shot, the blue has turned green on R2-D2 and on the 3 panel lights at bottom of shot, Luke's pants are no longer sandy/olive, the chess pieces change colour and many other colour problems appear. So the original re-wire does fix the sabre, but screws up the colour in the shot altogether.

The last shot is more subtle, but still mistimes the entire frame.

Use the selection tool in combustion to just select the sabre itself - you will need a travelling selection for a frame sequence and just recolour the blade. It looks as if the rest of the frame is correct in the original shot.
Post
#81573
Topic
Thought on de-SE'ing the DVD
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/81573/action/topic#81573
Time
The only way to be sure would be to post the orinal frame as well for a compare.
Basically you are remapping the colours, so anything that was green in shot will now be blue. If this was an optical printing error originally (i.e. they optically screwed up and ended up with green rather than blue) then this would actually correct the anomolies in the whole frame. If not (i.e. they just coloured in the sabre green by mistake) then you are adjusting the colour balance of the shot away from the original.
There is hardly any bright green elsewhere in the scene, so you could probably get away with it anyway.
Post
#81509
Topic
Help Wanted: Finding the 1997 Special Edition DVDs (PAL)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/81509/action/topic#81509
Time
If anyone can get me a set on LD, I will be happy to transfer to DVD.

I think there is a thread for 97SE discussions, it should be taken over there. I think the 97SE is only relevent here as it pertains to footage that was still original in the SE that is now not in the DVD as that makes the SE a potential source of restoration for a real OT.
Post
#80874
Topic
.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released)
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/80874/action/topic#80874
Time
Originally posted by: funnyname
But has it been tried? attempted? Couldn't you use whichever audio source you wanted for the most part and match that as well? (I mean going from the better to the "worse")


Yeah I've tried it, and for some scenes it kinda works OK, others it is just far too awful.
The audio is another problem altogether, whole chunks of the movie were re-scored to take the timing
differences and new scenes into account, and that is a real problem.

After doing some tests and seeing some of mebejedi's stuff, I am hopeful that we can make a 'less special' edition out of the DVD that will remove a lot of the really awful changes by:
1) Rotoscoping and painting out offending bits using the DVD as the main source
2) Cutting LD footage in where it might work (i.e. really short scenes with fast cuts
3) Getting pieces of frames from the SE SDTV German release an painting those into scenes.
4) Hopefully restoring some sequences or at least frames from film reels from 77 and the 97SE releases.

This will get us close to something that looks a lot more like the OT but you'll never turn it back into the complete OT by jamming bits form the LD release on there, the quality difference is just too great in many scenes.