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Jumpman

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20-Sep-2006
Last activity
11-May-2007
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150

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Post
#250931
Topic
What do you think of the <strong>Prequel Trilogy</strong>? a general discussion thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/250931/action/topic#250931
Time
CO,

As to your questions, obviously the theatrical versions would sell the most but that's not because they're the theatrical versions. It's because it was the first time the Original Trilogy was out on DVD. No matter which version you put out, in 2004, that boxset was going to sell huge regardless. Why? Because it was the Original Trilogy.

There's no way of really telling how the versions are split between consumers, in terms of preference. And to be honest, I don't think average consumers can tell the difference, mainly because the characters and plot haven't changed between the versions....

"Cleanup and Remastering are different than Added Effects and Scenes. EVERY DVD that is of an old movie is remastered and cleaned up: The Godfather, Indiana Jones, Citizen Kane, and even Wizard of Oz. So the O-OT deserved that much respect as the other movies, but the SE in 2004 is different not cause of the clean up and remastering job, but the added effects from 97 and from '04 that make this set different. Just look at E.T, same transfer, two versions, everyone is happy."

I understand the difference. That's not my issue. Lucas doesn't want to spend the money remastering and cleaning up on films he deems inferior to his vision. That's as plain as I can get. Would it have been easier to go the E.T. route? Absolutely. I can't argue against that. Everyone would've been happy. But haven't fans realized that Lucas cares about one thing when it comes to Star Wars and that's his vision of it. And if his vision of it is the Special Editions, that's it. I'd rather he give consumers the choice (which he technically did with the Limited Editions) but I understand his views as a filmmaker and an artist.

You can piss and moan about it until the cows come home but you have to at least respect his decision and see it from his point of view. If you do, and you still disagree obviously you do, then so be it. But, I don't think Lucas is going to lose sleep if he loses some fans over his decisions.




Post
#250905
Topic
What do you think of the <strong>Prequel Trilogy</strong>? a general discussion thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/250905/action/topic#250905
Time
CO,

But we've been enjoying the films on VHS and Laserdisc for over twenty years now...in it's original state. Is Lucas REQUIRED to continue that just because DVD is the NEW thing?

On top of that, and we'll obviously agree to disagree here, but in his mind, the Original Trilogy made it's debut on DVD in 2004...with the cleanup he deemed neccessary...eventhough we all know it was a rush job and it's not entirely finished. Still, his movies, his way, and will always be his way when he's no longer with us, will be Original Trilogy in its Special Edition form, in the future and forever. There's no way of getting around that any longer.

And personally, the market for the theatrical versions is a niche market anyway. I don't really think the masses see the difference any longer, if you go buy DVD sales of the 2004 set. It's only the film community and certain types in the media who've been at Lucas for years that actually really, truly care about this situation.

Post
#250901
Topic
Lucas Interview from 1979 - Alan Arnold's 'Once Upon a Galaxy' book
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/250901/action/topic#250901
Time
When you put that kind of money into a film (his OWN money) and the future of your company and independence (which he greatly desires above all things), you get anxious about it working. That's totally understandable, in my eyes.

And it's not like the quality suffered for it once Episode V was released. You can make the argument that the quality suffered once he got to Episode VI but that's subjective. It was the end of the trilogy anyway. Alot of that film was dictated by the previous film and the lack of technology to accomplish things he wanted to accomplish in Episode VI.

If he really wanted to make sure Episode V made more than the previous film, he would've made the exact same film over again. Clearly, he did not. He wanted to take the world he created in a new direction on all fronts. Sure, he was worried about the financial aspect of the project and how it relates to his grand plans of having his own filmmaking studio up in San Fran., but he clearly wanted to take the storyline and the quality of film to new heights.

That's part Kershner. No doubt about it. But, Kershner's film doesn't work without Lucas' draft of the script before Kasdan got there. That's where the foundation started for Episode V. You take Lucas' contribution to that film on all fronts, and you don't get the Episode V. That's just fact.

Post
#250732
Topic
What do you think of the <strong>Prequel Trilogy</strong>? a general discussion thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/250732/action/topic#250732
Time
"By watching the saga 1-6 now, you throw away ANH as a standalone movie to get the mass viewer into SW, cause now they are watching it in saga terms, or Anakins story, and the movie will not be the same as just renting ANH on a Friday night as a standalone movie that technically has an ending."

But CO, you can technically not think about the rest of the Star Wars films and just watch A New Hope on its own anyway...even with Episode IV A New Hope spliced onto the beginning. Nothing is stopping you from watching that film and that film alone. You can choose to continue or you can choose to stop at the film. The film still works great on it's own. And even in Saga terms, it works very well as the first victory for the Rebel Alliance.

The Saga can be looked upon as the story of Anakin Skywalker. That doesn't change the fact that once you get to the Original Trilogy, the main character is still Luke. He's the one we follow to Vader's end and the Empire's end. Lucas saying that the Saga is about Anakin doesn't ruin that.
Post
#250707
Topic
What do you think of the <strong>Prequel Trilogy</strong>? a general discussion thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/250707/action/topic#250707
Time
And as far as the Special Editions vs. the Theatrical Editions, it all comes down to the vision of the director and the vision of the fanbase.

This argument will continue for ages. People just need to come to grips with the fact that Lucas is a perfectionist, when it comes to his films...whether he's right or wrong in the eyes of the fanbase. He wants them how he wants them and that's his right to do so.

And I say again, he didn't alter the story where the characters, plot, and themes are unrecognizable. When he does that, then I can see the fanbase argument about the Special Editions.

It's not like anyone of us wouldn't do the same thing, if we were in his position and we felt that we could improve on our art...
Post
#250706
Topic
What do you think of the <strong>Prequel Trilogy</strong>? a general discussion thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/250706/action/topic#250706
Time
CO,

"But the ones that liked the PT and were jazzed about it for years, were the ones that liked the EU stuff and wanted more. The problem GoMer is the reason SW became so popular during the OT was the MASS of fans who loved the movies, not the niche diehards that seem to love the PT."

That's a pretty big generalization of fans of the Prequels. You can't really make that statement. Everyone has their reason for watching and enjoying the Prequels as they do with the Originals. The difference is time in which the Original Trilogy was released to the masses. A New Hope was something nobody every experienced before...period. And you can say the same for the film industry. It was a film that changed EVERYTHING on numerous levels.

As you stated, the Prequels were going to be unfairly compared to the Originals. It's impossible to live up to the standards set 16 years prior. Everything about our culture, when it comes to films and the film industry, is totally different.

Also remember, the Original Trilogy was not widely praised upon their releases as some would like to think they were. It is only when critics took a step back and saw them for what they were that the praise came. Some critics were ahead of their time. Others were not. Star Wars isn't the first film to have that happen to it. De Palma's Scarface is a great example.

Will this happen to the Prequels? It just depends. They won't get the almighty praise the Originals get but I think, when time passes on, they'll be looked on more favorably.
Post
#249996
Topic
&quot;..secret to the future is quantity,&quot; Lucas said
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/249996/action/topic#249996
Time
The "quanity issue" Lucas brought up in the Variety article has nothing to do with sacrificing quality. It's all about, as he says, spending 200 million on 50 or 60 small projects instead of one feature, length film. It makes perfect business sense, FOR LUCASFILM. That's the key to the article. Because of the size of the company, it makes perfect sense to go small. He doesn't have countless catelog titles to sell on DVD like the studios have. He has one major one, Star Wars. His other is Indiana Jones that he has to share with Spielberg. That's all Lucasfilm has.

Plus, out of those 50 or 60 projects, you'll likely get at least 5 to 10 quality projects out of it, just like the industry is today. From year to year, we may get 20 really great quality films out of 200 films released in a year.

What I don't like about the article, eventhough he's probably going to be right, is the move to VOD and downloadable media. It seems he's very high on that and the industry seems to be wanting that as well, even with birth of HD media. And most of that has to do with controlling the product because of piracy. I can understand that but I just prefer to get the hard media every Tuesday that we're accustom too. I don't want there to be a day were I have to wait 30 minutes to an hour to download a film on to a hard drive....and I haven't even talked about the quality issues with going this route.





Post
#248670
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the &quot;Saga&quot;
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/248670/action/topic#248670
Time
Tiptup,

Are we talking about the primary focus of Episode III pertaining to Anakin or the plot? Because, I thought the ideas expressed in the film, whether you agree or not, were pretty clear, from the Anakin arc.

And the reason Prequel "defenders" don't discuss positive aspects of the films (especially here) is because the debate is framed by Original Trilogy fans...which always veer toward the "suppose" negatives of the Prequels.

And CO, your point about the Prequels having the macro story being Anakin's is technically wrong. If you divorce yourself away from the Original Trilogy and see how the Prequels are structured, the macro story isn't Anakin.

The opening crawl to Episode I don't announce that this film is the story of how Anakin became Darth Vader. Like Episode IV, we are introduced to a conflict. We have our heroes and villians in the conflict. And like Episode IV, the story goes off on a tangent where we meet a character who ends up thrust into the events of the main conflict. Throughout the next two films, like the Original Trilogy, we follow this character. But even then, he's still the micro story.

The difference between now and then is the Original Trilogy. You take any person who has no knowledge of Star Wars and sit them down and show Episode I first, they won't think that this is the story of Anakin....and it will be the same as they go through the rest of the Prequels. It's a story of two conflicts (The Blockade of Naboo in Episode I and The Separatist vs The Republic of Episode II) with three characters (Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme) as our anchors to the end result.

Post
#247762
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the &quot;Saga&quot;
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/247762/action/topic#247762
Time
Tiptup,

I see what you're getting at but this is what I'm saying the two films are saying:

Yes, Anakin did make the choice to be a Jedi. He has this romanticized view of being a Jedi, but Qui-Gon warned him of the hardships. He still chose. But, that doesn't change the fact that his Mother taught him a certain set of values, values that indirectly clash with the Jedi Way. Most of the those values deal with the caring of people. This is why I say previously that Anakin is loyal to people, not ideals. Anakin cares for people, but not people as a whole in the way the Jedi do.

The prime example is in Episode III at the beginning when one of the Clone fighters is asking for help and Anakin wants to go help him out. Obi-Wan states, "No, they're doing their job so we can do ours." The next shot shows Anakin pissed off about it. And when it comes time for Obi-Wan to about bite the dust, Anakin goes to his friend. Obi-Wan orders him to finish the missing and leave him but Anakin isn't having any of that.

Do you see where I'm getting at?

Now, we also have the Chosen One factor, that I believe was a mistake by the Jedi. They know he's the Chosen One. They TELL him he's the Chosen One. But, then tell him he can't be trained. I think a nine year old can comprehend that. But, they change their mind out of their own circumstances(make sure the Chosen One doesn't fall into the hands of the Sith) but that already breeds resentment in Anakin. Not only that, but they give him over to a Master who isn't ready to be one and doesn't even care for the boy in the first place. The relationship is barely held together in the beginning only because of Qui-Gon's wishes.

And with Anakin being the Chosen One and feeling that he is, when it comes to his abilities and his training, he feels that is more capable of what Obi-Wan is allowing him to become. When you get that constantly back and forth along with other Padawan's rising in the ranks, that has to breed some frustration. On top of all that, he can't see his Mother. She raised him but the Jedi Way obviously dictates that you must break the attachment to your previous life. And this is the aspect where the Jedi should've given him special circumstances...if they were going to train him. There is absolutely no way a kid can just forget the one person who raised him all those years....who was his only life at one point....his family. You can't break that bond. It's forever. Clearly, Anakin struggles with this. This is why his dreams in Episode II scare him. And when he tells Obi-Wan of his dream, what does his Master tell him? "Dreams pass in time." Or, in other words, forget about your Mother. You're a Jedi now.

This is why I say it's a constant back and forth between what he knows he must be and do as a Jedi and what he feels as just a human being. It's just a clash between what he is taught and what he's being taught, on top of the fact that he knows he's the Chosen One. He is disciplined, moreso in Episode III, but he has his moments outside of that...and that's mainly a cause of his beliefs in his abilities.

The key to any film of this type is the likeablity factor with a character. Anakin has his good moments. Most of them, in Episode II, are with Padme. We all can tell he's desperately in love with her, eventhough we also know this is wrong. It's clear to me that Lucas went more towards "understand the character and his problems" than "like the character." It's definitely a combination of the two in Episode II with it obviously leaning toward "understanding." Still, when the chips fall in the latter half of Episode II, he comes to the rescue of his Master. He's galant in the battle. He saves Obi-Wan just as he's about to get it from Dooku. And then we see his marriage and understand the reasons behind the marriage. With all of that, I personally like him. And Lucas makes a very great effort in the opening moments in Episode III to make the audience really like Anakin now that we see him as a full Jedi and we see how much better the relationship between he and his Master really is....because there were some moments in Episode II. But, Episode III really puts it in the forefront. And between the two films, Lucas makes it work, the Anakin character.

And given all the crap I just said, CO's right. There's another version of Episode I and it's Anakin as the same age as Padme...but I wouldn't do it with the flashbacks(mainly because Star Wars doesn't do flashbacks). And making him that age would or would not ruin some of the thematic devices that are integral apart of his story through the three films as it stands now.

Post
#247626
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the &quot;Saga&quot;
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/247626/action/topic#247626
Time
Tiptup,

"Training to become a Jedi is not an easy challenge. And even if you succeed, it's a hard life. Take that line by Qui-Gon, add the fact that Anakin was raised by his mother exclusively for nine years but can't see her because of the Jedi way, on top of the fact that he's been labeled the Chosen One and he knows it(literally) and feels it and end it with his superiors constantly keeping a watchful eye on him and holding him back.

I think you can possibly see why Anakin is a little different, 10 years later...and why he goes back and forth between doing his duty and training as a Jedi and he desires toward Padme in Episode II. He's a good kid in Episode II. He's just dealing with some angst when it comes to the Jedi Way.

"Must be difficult having sworn your life to the Jedi. Not be able to visit the places you like or do the things you like."
"Or be with the people that I love."

Post
#247504
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the &quot;Saga&quot;
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/247504/action/topic#247504
Time
Gaffer,

" He has to be intelligent enough to see the ethical implications of his actions, and to be able to determine the probably outcome of those choices."

That's the Padme Rumination scene and him crying on the balcony on Mustafar....

And the reason he does serve the Emperor after Padme is gone is because he has nothing else, but the Emperor. He's a shell of his former self so he can't beat the Emperor. He doesn't have Padme any longer. What else is he going to do?

He starts as a slave. In a roundabout way, he's a slave as a Jedi. And at the end of it all, he's Palpatine's slave. Only when he has compassion and love for his son does he set himself free and end the horror that he has created.
Post
#247493
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the &quot;Saga&quot;
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/247493/action/topic#247493
Time
The FEAR comes from believing he'll lose the one he loves. The ANGER comes from Obi-Wan revealing himself on Mustafar and thinking his wife and Obi-Wan had betrayed him. The HATE comes from him literally telling Obi-Wan that he hates him. The SUFFERING comes from being burned, realizing that he's responsible for the death of his wife, and the fact that he's trapped in that suit and is forever a slave to Palpatine.

It's a gradual process.
Post
#247492
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the &quot;Saga&quot;
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/247492/action/topic#247492
Time
CO,

First off, "What have I done?" was a reshoot. Second, even if the Dark Side isn't taking over him in that office, that doesn't matter. Palpatine holds the key, or so he thinks. And even with that knowledge, he knows that Palpatine is also a bastard. But, Anakin can't take that chance. He blames himself for his Mother's death eventhough he had nothing to do with it. What person blames himself of his Mother's death when he had no control over the situation? Either way, he does and he makes a promise to not let anything of this nature happen again. Palpatine's offer is the only thing he can grab onto and he can't risk not taking it, even if it's true or not. He has to go forward. He's already committed a sin against his Jedi brothers by help taking out one of the Jedi Masters. He has no choice but to go forward for himself and for Padme. And that's why I think everything after that point is extremely sad.

He would go THIS FAR to save the woman he loves. And by giving into that FEAR, the Dark Side begins it hold over him. Remember, "fear is the path to the Dark Side." And that's the reason Anakin makes absolute no sense, in terms of dialogue, in the rest of the film. Lucas just changed the context when he changed the turn.

Admittedly, it didn't make sense to me either until I saw the film a second time and understood what was really going on. And despite the fact that from the turn toward the end of the film was concieved differently, Lucas made it work, obviously from where I stand.

Lucas just felt that Anakin turning out of feeling disrespected and betrayed fell into that trap of thoughts many assumed would happen when he eventually got around the Prequels.

Post
#247488
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the &quot;Saga&quot;
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/247488/action/topic#247488
Time
CO,

I never once believed that more money=better film.

Part of Jedi's problem is popularity and story threads. You can't not go and get Han sometime during the storyline of Episode VI. You can't not find out if Vader truly is Luke's father. You can't have the Rebels not pursue the final battle with the Empire. Those threads need to be closed.

But back to Anakin, his idea that the Jedi are greedy and evil has more to do with the fact that it's the Dark Side dominating him for than having two versions of Episode III. His dialogue means squat because he's obviously out of control and dominated by the Dark Side of the Force. Hell, Anakin and Obi-Wan's dialogue while lava surfing was part of reshoots where he refilmed Anakin's turn...

zombie is partly right that Lucas had two different versions but he makes it work with the idea of the Dark Side dominating Anakin's actions and words. That's the reason he lost that fight with Obi-Wan. It had nothing to do with Obi-Wan being better.

As for having the turn set in stone, he had it when he started shooting. He just rethought the idea.
Post
#247477
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the &quot;Saga&quot;
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/247477/action/topic#247477
Time
CO,

Less is always definitely better. But, I guess Lucas wanted to show more of the Star Wars universe. I can't fault him for that. Clearly, he has a much more invested interest in Anakin than Luke. And because I've always been a Darth Vader guy than a Luke guy, I can watch them numerically.

And to this day, I'll give Return of the Jedi the benefit of the doubt. I'm telling you if Lucas had the money, time, and technology to pull of Kashyyyk and the Wookies, Jedi wouldn't be getting crucified as it does now. The Han situation, along with the Ewoks is interesting, because Lucas took alot of criticism after Episode V was released for it not being as fun as Episode IV, hence the feel of Episode VI.

Post
#247474
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the &quot;Saga&quot;
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/247474/action/topic#247474
Time
CO,

Above you quoted the Annotated Screenplays. I wish to God I could find that quote of Lucas back in early 80's about what he would do with the "backstory" if he ever made it because he essentially said he was going this route...a route that many of you don't like.

I'm not saying you're wrong with that quote above, but the quote I've read about "if he made the backstory" is even more telling and why I like the Prequels.
Post
#247472
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the &quot;Saga&quot;
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/247472/action/topic#247472
Time
CO,

Well, that's obviously where you and I differ. For me, the main plot point was Palpatine's rise to power. I mean, his story is the one that keeps the films moving. Every move Palpatine makes keeps the films moving forward. Our anchor is Anakin.

But, yes, I can definitely understand the notion of keeping it the same. And I didn't mean to state that the Original Trilogy has no substance. It has plenty. It just doesn't have as much as the Prequels, but if you were to go by most critics, some would've said it had none at all. It had plenty, you just may not have liked it. There's a difference.

Post
#247470
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the &quot;Saga&quot;
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/247470/action/topic#247470
Time
zombie,

"Jumpman, the greatest travesty of the PT was those ten years when Anakin is a cute boy and now he is a whiny teenager, what happened? Lucas does the correct thing with TPM and makes Anakin innocent to throw the viewer with preconceived notions that Darth Vader was always bad. But AOTC, begins, and he is a different person, and the viewer is supposed to assume he is has gotten arrogant, just like we should assume he is great friends with Kenobi, just like we should assume Palpatine & Anakin have developed this great relationship behind the scenes. The starting of AOTC makes the viewer assume alot has gone on in 10 years, I say, "SHOW US THIS ON SCREEN!!!!"

Yes, Episode II makes the viewer assume alot. And it's a risk. And see, this is why I can also see a version of the Prequels with Anakin as a teenage in Episode I. But, as you said, Lucas does the correct thing with Episode I and makes Anakin innocent to throw the viewer preconceived notions that Darth Vader was always bad. But, I also feel you loose alot of you make him that age in Episode I. The viewers preconceived notions would still be there if he was a teenage in that film.

But, I don't think the assumptions are hard to pick up on or figure out. But, it does merit your statement of show us on screen. I think he does enough of it in Episode II...which is mostly through dialogue if you can believe it. I think he more than makes up for it in the first hour of Episode III, with the likeablity factor, the Palpatine relationship factor, and the friendship between Anakin and Obi-Wan factor.

But as you say and some others, you felt it was too little, too late. I just don't personally feel that way but I see what you're saying though.
Post
#247466
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the &quot;Saga&quot;
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/247466/action/topic#247466
Time
CO,

You're right. But, clearly in those sixteen years between Episode VI and Episode I, Lucas was trying for something else. And again, we have some that get it and actually like it to love it. But we also have some that despise the character study angle he went with.

I just find it funny that critics say Lucas is all style and no substance when it comes to character and yet here we are talking about how Lucas may have made a mistake choosing a character study over a style that made the Original Trilogy and Star Wars what it was....

I just feel that Star Wars shouldn't be defined as one way. That's my whole point.

But CO, you have to see the trap Lucas was going to fall into if he kept it the same. He keeps it the same, he gets crucified for not doing something new and original. Now, he's getting crucified for straying too far way from what made Star Wars, Star Wars.

Post
#247465
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the &quot;Saga&quot;
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/247465/action/topic#247465
Time
zombie,

First off, you're correct. But, for me, I can buy the Anakin character and the love story in Episode II. That's why Episode III works wonders on me.

I can see where people HATE the Anakin character in Episode II. Luke was the same way in Episodes IV and V, but not to Anakin's level. Essentially, Anakin wants to be more than what he is now and he feels he can be more...hence the whining. I can buy that. It doesn't make him likeable but I understand it. Where I find Anakin likeable in Episode II is his story with Padme and his arc with his Mother. He's a good kid. It's just that he's also a teenager who wants more than wants being given to him at the time...and that's not enough. It's especially not enough when some one else, Palpatine, is telling you the exact opposite to what your mentor and superiors are telling you.