Ha, citing the RT audience score unironically, that’s funny.
I’m guessing you have “valid” data that supports your take on things.
There’s nothing in that definition that hints at it being a slur of any kind.
It does however give several examples that suggest the word is generally used in the context of a topic a majority thinks is bad. PT apologists makes sense, TLJ doesn’t.
Depends how you define “majority” in this case:
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi
The overwhelming majority of critics think TLJ is good. A slight majority of fans think it’s bad.
I’d also argue the “examples from the internet” in that definition are also examples of how the word has come to be misused over time. I’d prefer examples from classical literature before everyone got online and became generally less thoughtful in their reasoning and their writing, and you could go to “print” without an editor helping you catch mistakes.
Saying that you liked a movie, and why you liked a movie, is defending it?
No, but if you point out why you liked it multiple times over the course of a discussion in an attempt to refute negative criticism, then I’d say you’re defending it, yes.
DominicCobb said:
I think a big part of it must be the expectations thing. As evidenced by GothamKnight’s post, if you were expecting something after TFA and didn’t get exactly that, there might be a disconnect for you personally, even if in reality the two films actually fit very well together.😒
Why is this the operating assumption of TLJ apologists? It’s not that I or other critics were expecting particular answers or resolutions. It’s that we were expecting . . . answers or resolves, or even just new information, of any kind, as long it was a plausible, natural progression from TFA.
So for example, let’s say I was speculating, like many, that Rey was a Skywalker. It’s not that I was disappointed, much less upset, that she wasn’t a Skywalker; that didn’t have to be the explanation for Rey’s Force-prowess. The problem is that TLJ provided no explanation for it; therefore it provided no natural or logical progression from TFA.
I get tired of the apologists arguing that critics are whining about “not getting what they wanted” in terms of specific plot developments. We just wanted . . . plot developments.
I agree with many of your criticisms, but you’d get less pushback if you didn’t refer to TLJ’s fans as apologists — not because the label is incorrect
It’s not? In what way would you say it’s correct?
Hate to be that guy, but:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/apologist
There’s nothing in that definition that hints at it being a slur of any kind.
DominicCobb said:
I think a big part of it must be the expectations thing. As evidenced by GothamKnight’s post, if you were expecting something after TFA and didn’t get exactly that, there might be a disconnect for you personally, even if in reality the two films actually fit very well together.😒
Why is this the operating assumption of TLJ apologists? It’s not that I or other critics were expecting particular answers or resolutions. It’s that we were expecting . . . answers or resolves, or even just new information, of any kind, as long it was a plausible, natural progression from TFA.
So for example, let’s say I was speculating, like many, that Rey was a Skywalker. It’s not that I was disappointed, much less upset, that she wasn’t a Skywalker; that didn’t have to be the explanation for Rey’s Force-prowess. The problem is that TLJ provided no explanation for it; therefore it provided no natural or logical progression from TFA.
I get tired of the apologists arguing that critics are whining about “not getting what they wanted” in terms of specific plot developments. We just wanted . . . plot developments.
I agree with many of your criticisms, but you’d get less pushback if you didn’t refer to TLJ’s fans as apologists — not because the label is incorrect, but because the label has taken on a negative connotation in modern discourse.
I don’t agree with people who think TLJ is a good Star Wars story/movie, but that doesn’t mean they’re making excuses for something they know deep down isn’t good, which I think is what many would call an “apologist” today.
I’m just frustrated with the way that you can’t carry on a conversation about the movie for more than a couple posts without circling back to whether the movie was good or bad. Surely everyone is on the record at this point. Are we ever going to get to the point where we can just talk about the stuff that happened in the movie without having to reevaluate why we liked or didn’t like it for the umpteenth time?
I agree, but to be fair, technically this is the review thread, so people posting their reviews (regardless of how long it’s been since the movie came out) is inevitable. The unfortunate side effect is that it often tends to reboot the conversation back to page one.
Anyone is free to create new threads to address specific aspects of TLJ they’d like to discuss. You don’t need to confine all TLJ discussion to a single thread.
Some of you should consider adding up all the time you’ve spent writing posts that made a net zero contribution to the discussion (and your lives) before you give someone a hard time for putting time into something thoughtful that you might disagree with. Just scroll past it if it bothers you so much (granted it might take a minute).
I finally watched TLJ a couple weeks back. I liked some parts and not others. Visually superior to TFA, which looks cheap and plasticky in comparison. The background stories of the new characters still feel shallow. Rey is too powerful with inadequate training or explanation in my opinion. I could’ve done without the shoehorned humor, but I genuinely laughed when Luke tossed his light saber over his shoulder (almost like the scene was thumbing its nose at the over-the-top grandiosity of TFA’s ending) and when Rey felt the Force. I loved Hamill’s acting, but hated what they did to Luke’s character. Hux is a joke (much prefer the overt cruelty of ESB’s killing of failed admirals to Hux’s being thrown around by his boss in every scene when he screws up) and Snoke is just some dead CGI guy with no story. Really enjoyed the quiet moments when Kylo and Rey connected and thought the throne room sequence was well done. Chewie might as well have died in TFA with Han; they could have listed him as “Millennium Falcon Pilot” in the end credits. The drawn-out “chase” scene with the fleet was contrived. Almost every male/female relationship was like a bad sitcom where the husband is a dope with a harebrained scheme and his wife sets him straight in the end (no SJW/political comments on this please, I’m talking about poor storytelling and character tropes here). I liked that it was weird. The OT was weird sometimes (ANH and ROTJ more so than ESB) and TLJ brought back some of the weirdness.
I rated TFA a 5/10 when I first saw it and bumped it to a 6/10 after rewatching it. I feel kind of meh about the whole thing. I’d rate TLJ about the same, but it’s more polarizing for me. I’d rate the best parts at an 8 and the worst parts at a 3.
jack449 was banned temporarily for posting direct links to copyrighted material downloads.
If I quote a post, I’m referencing what you said, not what you’re going to say in 10 minutes after you reconsidered. What happens when something I reference in your post disappears and what I posted no longer makes any sense?
Think before you post.
I’m very happy with the Beyerdynamic DT 770. They aren’t the prettiest headphones you can find, but the sound is great, they are super comfortable and they are built to last. I have the 250 ohm version and my current laptop can power them without problems (but I’m using an external soundcard anyways), my phone and mp3 player both are a little quiet.
Since they are far below your budget of $330, you should also get a soundcard with headphone amplifier, if you don’t already have one, as you will notice the difference to cheap onboard cards (even more so if you spend all of the $330 on even better headphones) and the headphone amp will definitely power the 250 ohm (or possibly even higher impedance of more expensive headphones).
If you want more mobility, you can also get a version with 80 ohm. (There are also versions with 32 and 16 ohm, but generally, you’d want to go as high as possible and 80 ohm should be fine, even for phones, if you don’t plan to listen at extreme volumes.) In that case you’d still want a dedicated soundcard for your PC, even if you don’t need it for the volume.
I forgot to address sound cards in my first post. I agree with Frank. I suggest you take some of that budget and get yourself a decent external USB DAC/headphone amp. Massdrop carries a bunch of those as well. I have both my headphones and desktop monitors hooked up to a USB DAC/amp and it smokes the motherboard’s built-in audio.
What amp do you use?
http://www.teac.com/product/nt-503/
There’s no need to go this far if all you’re looking for is a better DAC/amp than what your computer provides, though. I wanted something both to drive my headphones and to send line level audio with volume control to my powered speakers. Local FLAC playback is outstanding because it skips Windows’ audio processing entirely, and the network capabilities are a nice bonus (Spotify is CD-quality when played directly through this).
Wow, that thing seems great. But, like you said, I’m just lookin for a good DAC/headphone amp. Any suggestions? I don’t have much experience with em.
Been looking at the Dragonfly series. I’m looking for something solid state in the $200-ish price range and those fit the bill. Reviews sound good.
http://www.schiit.com/products/fulla-2
[insert Frink joke here]
I’m very happy with the Beyerdynamic DT 770. They aren’t the prettiest headphones you can find, but the sound is great, they are super comfortable and they are built to last. I have the 250 ohm version and my current laptop can power them without problems (but I’m using an external soundcard anyways), my phone and mp3 player both are a little quiet.
Since they are far below your budget of $330, you should also get a soundcard with headphone amplifier, if you don’t already have one, as you will notice the difference to cheap onboard cards (even more so if you spend all of the $330 on even better headphones) and the headphone amp will definitely power the 250 ohm (or possibly even higher impedance of more expensive headphones).
If you want more mobility, you can also get a version with 80 ohm. (There are also versions with 32 and 16 ohm, but generally, you’d want to go as high as possible and 80 ohm should be fine, even for phones, if you don’t plan to listen at extreme volumes.) In that case you’d still want a dedicated soundcard for your PC, even if you don’t need it for the volume.
I forgot to address sound cards in my first post. I agree with Frank. I suggest you take some of that budget and get yourself a decent external USB DAC/headphone amp. Massdrop carries a bunch of those as well. I have both my headphones and desktop monitors hooked up to a USB DAC/amp and it smokes the motherboard’s built-in audio.
What amp do you use?
http://www.teac.com/product/nt-503/
There’s no need to go this far if all you’re looking for is a better DAC/amp than what your computer provides, though. I wanted something both to drive my headphones and to send line level audio with volume control to my powered speakers. Local FLAC playback is outstanding because it skips Windows’ audio processing entirely, and the network capabilities are a nice bonus (Spotify is CD-quality when played directly through this).
I’m very happy with the Beyerdynamic DT 770. They aren’t the prettiest headphones you can find, but the sound is great, they are super comfortable and they are built to last. I have the 250 ohm version and my current laptop can power them without problems (but I’m using an external soundcard anyways), my phone and mp3 player both are a little quiet.
Since they are far below your budget of $330, you should also get a soundcard with headphone amplifier, if you don’t already have one, as you will notice the difference to cheap onboard cards (even more so if you spend all of the $330 on even better headphones) and the headphone amp will definitely power the 250 ohm (or possibly even higher impedance of more expensive headphones).
If you want more mobility, you can also get a version with 80 ohm. (There are also versions with 32 and 16 ohm, but generally, you’d want to go as high as possible and 80 ohm should be fine, even for phones, if you don’t plan to listen at extreme volumes.) In that case you’d still want a dedicated soundcard for your PC, even if you don’t need it for the volume.
I forgot to address sound cards in my first post. I agree with Frank. I suggest you take some of that budget and get yourself a decent external USB DAC/headphone amp. Massdrop carries a bunch of those as well. I have both my headphones and desktop monitors hooked up to a USB DAC/amp and it smokes the motherboard’s built-in audio.
Budget?
Massdrop has frequent deals on headphones ranging from reasonably priced to stratospheric.
I enjoyed Tarkin in Rogue 1, but then I’m one of those crazies who really loves R1. It’s my third favorite Star Wars movie behind Star Wars and ESB.
I don’t think you’re crazy. I’d probably put ROTJ above R1 myself, but I’d still take R1 over anything else we’ve gotten in the last 20 years.
Photorealistic CGI faces are hard. Photorealistic CGI performances are ten times harder, even with really good motion capture. An example from Blade Runner 2049: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV34mT5m0bM
In the side-by-side comparisons, the digital double looks nigh indistinguishable from the original, but translating that into an entirely new performance leaves a lot to be desired. Look at the eyes - human eyes constantly shift and refocus in a dance of micromovements, and you can see the model shifting its eyes in a way that mimics how humans scan another human’s face, but it is still too slow and obvious. Similarly, there is a lack of coordination between the muscles of the face, and that same smooth animated feel. In reality, the muscles of the face are constantly twitching in close coordination to betray the extremely subtle emotions that may not even register to our conscious minds.
All of these problems were apparent in Tarkin and Leia from Rogue One.
Exactly. Most living things, including humans, are twitchy. CGI motion is still too smooth. The visual fidelity is pretty much there though; once someone nails the motion, CGI characters will blend almost seamlessly with their real-life counterparts.
My one real issue with the R1 Tarkin is that he was too expressive. Cushing’s performance in ANH was much more subtle so it therefore no longer felt like the same performance. Were it another actor, it’d be different - a different interpretation if you will. But because his face was realistically recreated, it made all of the grimacing and snarling and raised eyebrows that more off putting.
This right here. Cushing’s face barely moved in ANH; he emoted almost entirely with his eyes. Combine the more expressive facial animations with that weirdly smooth CGI motion and you get TarkinBot.
That said, Leia’s toothy grin weirded me out more.
A final warning to all participants: no more political discussions in this thread.
It’s pretty clear how everyone feels about the ST’s supposed feminist agenda by now. Please don’t post about it any further.
Violators will be banned without warning.
Please respect the OP and keep personal attacks and politics out of this thread. The whole “Mary Sue” argument in regards to Rey has been beaten to death.
Warnings have been issued.
I’m reserving this thread for any announcements or explanations related to banned members. It’s now closed to public discussion.
I will say this, this forum does have a lot of unwritten social codes that I haven’t encountered literally anywhere else in my life, and when someone breaks that code, they get a host of people on their back, which isn’t really fair. I don’t believe Dr.Dre’s offense is a perma-bannable thing, more like a warning, however Frink did go overboard, there’s no other way to take his response.
I think we should wait for Frink to return from his temp-ban before we continue to condemn anyone else or go on endless conjecture.
What’s the problem with “condemning anyone else?”
I don’t think that’s very fair to do if they are not here to defend themselves. I’m fairly certain everyone we’re talking about doesn’t visit this section of the forum.
I guess I just don’t understand what any of you are trying to accomplish. Talk to the people you like and ignore the ones you don’t. Everyone has different ideas of what is proper and decent, and everyone is offended by different things. If they attack another poster, then it becomes a problem.
You should all read these posts over and over again until they sink in.
I banned Frink for losing it and attacking another member because something offended him personally. Not only was that against the general forum rules, but also the thread-specific rules, which are explicit. It’s also become a pattern that has affected how other members discuss certain topics, as mentioned by several in this thread. I’m hoping this is something Frink bears in mind when he returns.
The offending party apologized sincerely once they were made aware of Frink’s personal situation, and I decided not to ban them because of that. Had Frink led with an explanation of his feelings instead of launching into an attack, it’s likely all this would have been avoided. In fact, the offending party requested that Frink’s ban be lifted immediately after it was enacted. I declined.
Regarding the “r-word”, we’ve disciplined other members for using it and will continue to do so when it’s brought to our attention. Had Frink contacted us about its use in the TLJ thread instead of going off, we would’ve corrected it there as well.
I’ve changed my mind and won’t be reviewing the 50 or so pages of the TLJ review thread prior to Frink’s banning. You’re welcome to report specific posts that you think are against the rules to oojason and SilverWook via PM since they’ve seen TLJ. I’ve avoided all but one major spoiler up to this point and would like to remain relatively spoiler-free until I have time to see the movie. Those of you who think it’s a “problem” that I haven’t seen the movie yet are welcome to volunteer as my personal assistant so you can manage my calendar and explain to my family and employer why they come in third place to a movie released right before a major holiday.
I have no intention of returning to this thread to discuss this further as I consider the matter closed. Please refrain from further speculation or judgment/criticism of your fellow members or I’ll lock the topic.
Frink has been banned for the “asshole” thing. I’m going to be reviewing the thread myself in the coming days and will probably issue additional bans.
I haven’t seen the movie yet, so thanks guys.
I missed some private messages, and have made the situation worse.
Is it too late to unban Frink, Jay? This board would not be the same without him. Having been given some context, I can understand his reaction. I was being very insensitive. I apologize to everyone here for being a dick, especially to Frink.
It’s a temporary ban. I think Frink needs to learn how to express his displeasure with others’ posts without flipping out every time.
Frink has been banned for the “asshole” thing. I’m going to be reviewing the thread myself in the coming days and will probably issue additional bans.
I haven’t seen the movie yet, so thanks guys.
You’re going to need one of these to remain spoiler free that long! 😉
Ha, yeah. I managed to wait a week or two for TFA and not see any spoilers. I deleted my FB account a while back and I mostly follow political topics on Twitter, so my exposure is minimal. I’m not even sure I care all that much though.
I feel like people that don’t like TFA or Rogue One are being treated like trolls. There seems to be little distinction between users that have legitimate and clearly articulated gripes and people that bitched constantly and rudely about how they’re the worst things ever.
I posted my thoughts on TFA right after its release (I think I rated it a 5/10 if memory serves, and I only saw it that one time in the theater) and haven’t bothered since because I didn’t think it was worth going against the prevailing (or at least most vocal) opinion. Maintaining that TFA is a mediocre movie is a difficult position to hold in this community.
I still haven’t seen RO (R1? I don’t know the shorthand) and have no definite plans to see TLJ unless I find a day over the holidays when I have nothing else to do.
This is the official spoilerific TLJ review thread. Please post all reviews and opinions containing spoilers in this thread. There’s no need to preface your post with spoiler warnings.
Keep it civil and be on your best behavior. If you disagree with someone’s opinion, do so politely. We’re not kidding about banning people.
A final warning to all participants: no more political discussions in this thread.
It’s pretty clear how everyone feels about the ST’s supposed feminist agenda by now. Please don’t post about it any further.
Violators will be banned without warning.
