ImperialFighter

Matticon said:

HOTH ESCAPE:

The Rebel Hoth escape has always kind of annoyed me for one reason. We are lead to believe that the Imperial Fleet establishes a blockade around the planet to catch the rebels escaping. The ion cannon fires, disabling one star destroyer, and then the rebel transport escapes through the hole in the blockade. Luke then pretty much makes his escape like he is on a sunday afternoon drive while the Falcon has to run for its life.

The part that doesn't make sense is that, if a star destroyer was disabled, wouldn't the imperial fleet redistribute itself to now cover the new hole? Why wouldn't the Falcon follow Lukes path out of Hoth? It sure is a lot easier and luke leaves Hoth less than 1 minute after the Falcon does. Personally I think, TPM gets the blockade thing right with forcing the Naboo starcruiser to blast past the Trade Federation ships.

How do we solve this then?

1)Perhaps more disabled Star Destroyers?
2)Have a more exciting escape for Luke?

3)Show that Vader distributes his fleet to chase after the Falcon letting the other rebels go?

Just some thoughts.

Matticon.

 

 

Some fair enough points there Matticon, and I'd like to address some of them, as this is a sequence I'm especially keen to see Adywan's version of eventually.

The way this whole sequence is currently constructed onscreen, throws up a few questions about the Fleet's numbers and positioning over / around the Hoth Planet in general....    There is also the question of whether the single ION Cannon just fires several times in the SAME direction every time....OR is it able to easily change the direction it aims at, and therefore capable of disabling Stardestroyers in various surrounding positions, allowing for DIFFERENT escape routes?.... 

Regards a couple of things though, I don't reckon the Millennium Falcon would follow Luke's path, because the crew probably had no idea of where he actually was, at the time they blasted out of the Base....and he hadn't taken off yet....  With the Imperial troops storming the Rebel Base and  breathing down their necks, Han probably just blasted away from the planet as quickly as he could, with a view to making a rendezvous with the others whenever possible, and likely just chose his own route when heading towards space.  If the ION Cannon was capable of shooting in various directions at different Stardestroyers, then Han was just unlucky it hadn't previously targeted either the 'Avenger' or the 2 'oncoming' ones, that were in the vicinity of his chosen route by this time....  (However, I usually think of it as clearing a path in roughly the SAME 'sector' of the 'blockade' each time, around about where the initial Stardestroyer was targeted, which works fine)

As far as the number of NON-disabled Stardestroyers still around to 'blockade' Han and Luke's chosen escape routes, it depends on how many ships the ION Cannon might have targeted during the bulk of the intervening battle since it's first salvo....  There is approx. 6.5 minutes of ongoing (in 'real-time' I'd say) action that happens in-between the first Stardestroyer being disabled, till when the 'Command Centre' operators start to evacuate the Base....and approx. another 1.5 minutes on top of that before the Shield is taken down by General Veers.... (just after either of these events, which come near the end of the battle, the ION Cannon might then have been destroyed by either an AT-AT /AT-ST, or targeted by a Stardestroyer from above....unseen by us.  Either way, it could be argued that the ION Cannon would probably have disabled a few other Stardestroyers in the intervening time, to protect some other Rebel 'Transports' that evacuated too....)  However, it also depends on how many, or how few Stardestroyers actually travelled to the Hoth System in the first place....  This number is unknown to everyone but Adywan at the moment!

If for instance, we keep to the amount of Stardestroyers seen in the initial shots of part of the Fleet gathering, it could be argued that there are about 9 or 10 individual ones (including the 'Executor') actually shown onscreen in that vicinity.  If we go by that number, then that doesn't seem over-many ships to cover all potential escape directions....never mind having to re-distribute some to them to cover the positions of any ION Cannon- damaged ones.  So this could account for why the current shots of Luke escaping, make it look easy - He happened to be one of the last to leave, after the ION Cannon had an opportunity to disable a few of the Fleet by this time, and there might not have been more than 10 to begin with, if you go by the EXISTING onscreen footage.... 

I don't know if Adywan is going to totally replace any shots / or put in an extra establishing shot or two in-between the current shots in this sequence, or not....OR if he only wants to add extra elements into the EXISTING shots....but the following post shows a rough idea of how the EXISTING shots of Luke's escape could just be added to in some way, to elaborate on how he might have gotten away so easily -

adywan said:

Where are all the Imperials? well they're off chasing the falcon. Vader has returned to the executor for the pursuit. Now  3 stardestroyers try to trap the falcon , and with the amount of ships we see approach HOTH that doesn't leave any for a blockade after one has been disabled. So luke is able to escape without any problems, so no blockade. Vader is using the whole destroy the rebels to find Luke without the Emperor knowing what his true agenda was so after he thinks Luke has escaped he probably wouldn't have cared less if they are all captured or not.

Adywan says "....so no blockade"  

WHAAAAAAAT???   Now that sure doesn't fit in with the 'canon' of change no. 23 on your page 1 list....  ;)

Well this is another VERY interesting update Ady, if a little unexpected.  (I should've guessed! :) )  

There is something I'm still not clear on, but I'll come back to that.... 

First, I'll describe what I've always imagined this whole Fleet 'numbers' thing as being like previously - 

This is the first shot of the Fleet starting to approach the Hoth System after coming out of Hyperspace, since we saw the initial bigger 'gathering' earlier on, which included a few more ships than seen here.... -  

....and although there are only 4 Stardestroyers (including the 'Executor') seen during this particular shot above, I've always imagined that the few other Stardestroyers that were seen in the initial 'gathering'shots (I've always made it another 5 or 6, because of  the way I view the shots), are spread out unseen and 'off-screen' at the side and rear of the nearest 3 ships to us here....

As to when a more impressive 'blockade' should start, I always thought of it as being from this shot below, onwards....which then would still be in place right up to the shot of Luke blasting away from the Hoth Planet too.... -

But if I've understood this correctly, I can see your reasoning for Vader and his main motives about the Millennium Falcon, and can see how there is enough time in the current footage to imagine him giving fresh orders for the Stardestroyers to immediately concentrate on the Falcon only, before we see Luke blasting off in his X-Wing!  Problem solved for Luke's straightforward departure, with no extra added elements needed....  I reckon the last 'Transport' that finally blasted off too, may have also gotten away unhindered, if the Stardestroyers responded quickly enough....  However, Monroville's comments on this sound equally relevant too.

I'm a little confused about these 2 things though, if I'm getting you right (and I'm not even sure I've got the 'Luke's X-Wing escape' thing right yet either!) - 

1.   If you are going to just go by the amount of Stardestroyers in the top 'approach' shot as it currently is, then once one of the ships is disabled just before the AT-AT battle starts, there are only 2 'standard' Stardestroyers left.  One of these can be the 'Avenger' that follows behind the Falcon, but that leaves us one 'standard' Stardestroyer short to account for the 2 other 'oncoming' ones....OR....are you planning to add another ship into the 'approach' shot?...OR....is a 'bigger' Fleet to be imagined as being unseen and 'offscreen' in that shot, like I normally see it?....OR....are either the 'Avenger' or the 2 other 'oncoming' Stardestroyers meant to be additional, different ships to the 4 initially seen in this 'approach' shot, having been ordered to come from another part of the Fleet to join Vader's chase?

2.  If you ARE intending to add another Stardestroyer to the initial 'approach' shot, to make up the numbers to account for the 'Avenger' and the 2 other 'oncoming' ships....it's most likely that the ION Cannon has been able to disable more than one 'blockading' Stardestroyer during the whole length of time that the AT-AT battle lasts, right up until the point where the 'Command Centre' operators are ordered to evacuate....  Having said that, perhaps the few on show in the 'approach' shot 'veered away' from harms way after what happened to the Stardestroyer that was disabled by the ION Cannon....  That seems unlikely though, as mid-way through the AT-AT battle, Leia and the Rebel General are concerned that the ION Cannon won't protect 2 'Transports' at a time (past the 'blockade'), and at the end of the AT-AT battle, Leia tells Han that she doesn't think his 'bucket of bolts' will ever get them past the 'blockade'....  

On a purely visual note, I'm also wondering about what your 4 Stardestroyers in the top shot above, are meant to be doing in any of the EXISTING shots.  Are they all positioned pointing directly towards the Hoth Planet at this point, perhaps slightly spread out from each other?  I'm not asking for a reply to that, I'm just wondering aloud.... 

Also, the single Stardestroyer that we see in the bottom shot above, might be meant to be the smallest one in the top 'Fleet approach' shot, that is seen nearest the Planet at that point.  This could be the same single Stardestroyer that is also hit by the ION Cannon.  It seems to point directly towards the Planet somewhat, which was the direction the 'Transport' came from, after all.  If they are all positioned like this, then it would come across as a 'blockade' of sorts, even if they are only 4 in number.  Leia certainly thinks it's one....

Questions....Questions....

Loved those shots of the behind-the-scenes 'gantry' background backdrop, and the unused one of Luke, by the way Adywan.  Hadn't come across either of those before.  :)

Deckard2 said:

So the Empire's main attack is striking the base from the North and the escaping rebels are located on the South side of the base. The Shield generator and Command center are both located on the North side.

I'm not sure that's correct, but I've just realised I've gotten something confused in my earlier reply to you -

It's a little unclear, but it seems that the area where the last Rebel troop carrier leaves from (we can make out it already has 2 accompanying X-Wing escorts), before Luke gets into his X-Wing, is also referred to as being somewhere at the NORTH side....because we initially hear Leia telling the assembled X-Wing Fighter Pilots that "All troop carriers will assemble at the north entrance", before she then goes on to tell them that there will only be 2 fighter escorts per ship, and that they will have to stay very close to them because the Energy Shield can only be opened for a short time.  (They are all standing near some X-Wings somewhere inside the Base during this discussion, and we can also see the Millennium Falcon and a snowspeeder in this same area...and I presume that all X-Wings in this area are meant to start grouping nearer to the area where the 'transports' are located at, from this point onwards). 

A bit later on, when it's announced that the first 'transport' is successfully away, we see Luke and some other Snowspeeder Pilots prepare to meet the AT-AT's, and can see more X-Wings in their departure area at this point.  (It's not known how many X-Wings are scattered throughout the expansive Base)  Presumably there are also OTHER unseen 'transports' leaving during the ensuing battle (accompanied by 2 fighters every time), as the ION Cannon continues to clear a path for them through the Stardestroyer 'blockade'. (It's not known how many Stardestroyers are destroyed during this period, or how many transports and X-Wings take off, although it seems that 2 'transports' at a time have to start going at the same time mid-way through the battle) 

However, later on yet, shortly before the last remaining 'transport' takes off, Han has travelled an unknown distance from where the Falcon is, to reach the 'Command Centre' where Leia is.  During this scene she says "Send all troops in Sector 12 to the south slope to protect the fighters".  This is the 'south slope' area I previously thought as being the area where Luke heads to get into his X-Wing, and where the last 'transport' is seen taking off from.  I think I got that wrong, and the 'fighters' mentioned by Leia as being at the 'south slope' are NOT the likes of Luke's X-Wing in the area of the last 'transport', as I originally thought.  So the area that Luke heads for, and takes off from, must be the NORTH area that was initially mentioned by Leia!  I think....

adywan said:

vaderios said:

The moon idea is good. It adds a character

Also i had an idea:

When the AT-AT fell wee see the rebel soldiers running and one say C'mon!

It will be cool if after the crash some snowtroopers had escaped of the fallen ATAT and heading towards to the rebels.

Just a brief scene. Also the snow speeder to shoot one of them just before it destroy the AT. Just like AOTC when the geonosian fighters killed a clone trooper...

-Angel

i love that idea . not sure how i would go about filming it though. unless anyone knows people who have snowtrooper costumes that can film them against white backgrounds. i have some ideas where added troopers would fit so getting the angles worked out is pretty easy.

Deckard2, another thing is this possibility above, which doesn't conflict with my description, as General Veers orders the debarking of snowtroopers AFTER this scene.  The AT-AT that Luke blows up would have NO snowtroopers inside it though, as they were already ordered to debark earlier, approx. 2.5 minutes BEFORE Luke brings down that AT-AT.  (and had already successfully breached the Base by this time, it seems)

Deckard2, I've just had to amend a couple of things that I missed out in my last post after you replied.  I'm quite satisfied that this explanation reads okay now.  Whether it works for anyone else is another matter.  :)

Don't worry about what the book said though, as the onscreen action makes it look like it is definately General Veers AT-AT that destroys the Generator.

As far as Han and Luke potentially putting themselves in danger's way, I guess they 'volunteered' to do it, just as they continued to do in 'JEDI'.  Who better to handle any potential threats that were out there?

Deckard2 said:

HOTH ESCAPE:

One thing that always bothered me, Luke blows up the AT-AT and then the next screen he is getting in his X-wing to go to Dagobah?

Wouldnt he be surrounded by stormtroopers? And how does he get to his X-wing and the other rebels without having resistance from the Empire attack force?

Deckard2, I'll have a go at how I've always liked to view this one, judging by the actual onscreen sequence of events -

We only see 5 AT-AT's (and then a following AT-ST - or is it 2 different ones?) as they approach from only one general direction towards the extensive Rebel Base / and it's Power Generators onscreen.  Each of these AT-AT's is carrying a small contingent of Infantry snowtroopers inside of them, as the AT-AT's move ever-closer to their target, which turns out to be quite heavily defended by snowspeeders and various Rebel firepower.  (I've always looked on all the various action and scenes in the battle as happening in 'real-time', by the way)  

Eventually, General Veers tells Vader's hologram "You may start your landing" and that he has reached the main Power Generators and that he'll have the Shield down in moments.  (I always think that he says 'moments' to Vader, as his AT-AT is almost near enough at this point where Vader contacts him for a progress report, but not quite close enough yet to properly destroy it immediately)   So approx. 2 minutes later into the battle, General Veers orders an Infantry snowtrooper beside him that "All troops will debark for ground assault", as he prepares to target the main Generator at this point.  Then approx. 50 seconds after that, Luke crashes his Snowspeeder.  (All the debarked AT-AT troops are already off and running towards getting into the Base from a DIFFERENT direction by now) Then approx. 50 seconds later after this, we hear an announcement saying "Imperial troops have entered the base".  (The AT-AT troops have succeeded)  Then approx. 45 seconds later, we see a now on-foot Luke blow up an AT-AT.  Eventually, approx. another 30 seconds after this, General Veers finally blows up the Generators. (Another thing that has probably held up his firing at the Generators a little sooner during these few minutes, is that he has probably had to contend with a lot of defending firepower aiming towards the AT-AT windscreen, which could be a weak point)

During this time before the Generators are blown up, I like to believe that the amount of snowtroopers that quickly debarked from the AT-AT's BEFORE Luke crashed (unseen by us during Luke's still ongoing snowspeeder action, probably all rapidly 'rappeling' down to the ground), were at this point concentrating on heading off in a DIFFERENT direction alongside the EXTENSIVE Base, to infiltrate it, rather than go straight ahead towards the strong Rebel firepower we see in front of the portion of the Base we see onscreen.  And Vader who lands just afterwards (when the Shield is finally down) has linked up with some of these AT-AT troops who first stormed the inside of the Base on ANOTHER section of the Base, compared to the portion defended onscreen....with the intention to capture Leia, Luke and the other ringleaders that Vader thought might be inside there.  

(However, I can never decide if the majority of the Rebel troops and Snowspeeder pilots are taken up with the AT-AT attack on that particular section of the Base while this separate attack is going on....OR....if there were an equal amount of defending Rebels and firepower on this other side also....that just couldn't stop Vader and his snowtroopers from breaching the Base....)

Either way, we don't see hundreds of snowtroopers onscreen, just a few with Vader, and they have concentrated on getting at whoever's inside of the Base first, during the time that we see Luke blow up an AT-AT on the outside, before he then heads for an as-yet-unassailed position near one side of the extensive Base, where the rest of the retreating Rebels are leaving from, and where his X-Wing awaits too.

It's good luck that Luke just happens to be now outside of the Base at this point, at a distance away from Vader and his snowtroopers, as he makes his way to where the the last of the Transports and his X-Wing are positioned (referred to as 'the south slope' by Leia who ordered some troops to protect the fighters there, earlier).  No doubt Vader and his snowtroopers (or the AT-AT's, if able to access this area) would have reached this position very shortly afterwards too....and R2D2 was right to be agitated.

Maybe this can help a little. 

doubleofive said:

darth_scourge said:

ImperialFighter said:

vaderios said:

Hmm Oups?

-Angel

 

 

The shot on the left is from the '04 DVD and was given the altered BG for the '97 SE. The shot on the right is the BG from the OUT. Clearly someone from Lucas farked up during the SE - unheard of isn't it? I'm sure Ady can clean this up very easily. I like Imperialfighters suggestions for improving the detail on the set.

 

The left shot was added for the SE?  I haven't watched the OUT since 1997, but that doesn't seem right.

Sorry darth_scourge, but I've checked, and doubleofive is right on this. 

These 2 different 'gantry' angles and their respective coloured backdrops are exactly the same as above on the GOUT DVD release too.  Actually both versions get shown more than once during the sequence.

And just another little thing I didn't really notice till I looked at the more vibrantly coloured GOUT version (although it's like watching it through a 'haze' compared to the SE version!), is the fact that the 2 pairs of double red lights at the base of the 'Vane' are unblinking when we first see them, but during the shot showing 3(!) pairs underneath as Luke falls, they DO blink....  So again, some consistency would be nice.

vaderios said:

Hmm Oups?

-Angel

vaderios, I've been meaning to mention a couple of things about this sequence, and will use the 2 recent shot examples you've shown here as an opportunity to do so.

First though, I believe you were just referring to the surrounding 'wraparound' backdrop as being different, because apart from the different colouring between the shots, the actual 'gantry' set looks the same by the time we see the shot on the right shown above, although it's filmed from far less of a 'birds-eye' view, and much more to the right of it, compared to the shot on the left, causing a shortening of the shadows cast.  As you later said, we do revert once again to the shot on the left (when Luke let's go and starts to fall)

However, apart from the duller flashing yellow 'ganty' lights in some shots which Adywan has confirmed he will try to brighten-up (it's not clear from these screenshots shown, but the 'dulled' ones in the left shot flash a 'pinkish' colour, compared to the vibrant yellow shown during the right shot), here are some other things to do with the 'gantry'/ and it's 'surrounding backdrop' that have always caught my eye -

1.  Some shots (usually the 'dulled' ones) seem to have all the smaller random backdrop lights in a LIGHT ORANGE colour, whereas other shots have a (far better-looking in my opinion) mixture of both WHITE and LIGHT ORANGE coloured lights, as seen in the right shot above.

2.  Some shots (usually the 'dulled' ones) have lines of RED horizontal backdrop lights amongst the smaller random lights, whereas others have these horizontal lights in ORANGE.  And in a couple of others, these lights are just a 'washed-out' WHITE (when Luke walks alongside the 'Vane' to re-enter through the doorway opening, and when Vader and Luke emerge out of this opening just after, as they duel again)  It would be good to have some consistency using either RED or ORANGE for all these shots, depending on Adywan's preference.  (although judging by all the shots, I'd guess it's easier to alter the orange and white ones to RED)

3.  The large (non-flashing) 'yellowish' light that is shown on the right-hand side of the left shot above, is similar to the vertical ones seen during these shots -   when Luke hangs off the 'walkway' / when Luke looks down during Vader talking to him / and during Luke's actual descent downwards.  Although the ones where Luke hangs off the 'walkway' are also 'yellowish', the other shots show them in WHITE....  Again, consistency between all these shots would be good.  (although I prefer the WHITE look myself)

4.  When we first see the 'whole' of the 'Vane' (immediately after the Falcon blasts off from the Bespin platform), it has 2 pairs of double red lights at it's base.  However, during Luke's fall, there are 3 pairs of red lights underneath the 'Vane' now....  I'd like to see the extra middle set removed from this shot to tie-in better with the previous shot.

5.  Immediately before the right shot shown above, there is a 'close-up' where Luke grabs a part of the 'gantry' prop with his remaining LEFT hand, as we hear Vader say "Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father".  There is a short 'adjoining spar' underneath his hand that is missing in this prop shot, but which is evident in the next 'close-up' that comes immediately after the right shot above, where he has turned around while still hanging onto the same section....  It would be neat if this short 'adjoining spar' could either be added (preferably) or removed to tie these shots together. 

Some very nice touches to do with the lightsaber there vaderios.  I really liked this particular brief shot of the Wampa that was added for the SE versions, and I'm hoping that it's kept for Adywan's sequence.

However, although it's claws are correctly black, I'd like to see the 'fleshy/pinkish' colour added to the 'palm' of the paw by Adywan, rather than the black colouring currently shown on the SE version.

vaderios, what I'd really like you to show sometime is a version of exactly the same kind of arcing 'electrical' effect on the 'dish weapon', as it 'powers-up', and also around the laserbolt itself, as was seen in your excellent ION Cannon mock-up. 

Could you replace the existing orange 'powering-up' areas using one or both of the shots above, with a whitish blue colouring with a more vivid blue subtle 'electrical' arcing 'flicking around' the 'round dish' too, at this point.  The same kind of 'electrical' arcing effect would also be subtly seen around the actual laserbolt that heads towards  the AT-AT too, similar to your previous ION Cannon laserbolt.

Although this alone would be a neat mock-up to see, I'd certainly like to see the exact same shots done in these alternative colours too -   one in a greenish white effect with vivid yellow 'electrical' arcing (as implied by the top shot here)....and one in the existing whitish orange as seen above, but with an added 'electrical' arcing in a more vivid orange....and finally, one in a whitish yellow with more vivid yellow 'electrical' arcing. 

Just a thought for fun, and no worries if not.  

vaderios said:

And for ImpFighter:

Considering some sky replacement the beam can be more visible and defined.

I vote for blue :)

 

-Angel

Just checked in to find you'd done the above shots recently vaderios.  Thanks for taking the time to have a go at that, but it wasn't quite what I had in mind at the time. 

I'll describe things a little clearer in the post below.

Kudos on how the cover has turned out.  I love good cover art.

So many great pieces on this thing now.  It's a fabulous project.  :)

Monroville said:

(6) you could simply make the radar guns into smaller ion cannons (not make the dish-guns spherical, but just change the energy glow on the dish to blue) and change their laser bolts into the electrified blue bolts as seen in Vaderios' ion cannon shots a few pages ago.  Maybe you could also show the effect of an impact where the ion blast seeped through the armor and a leg stops moving or begins to stutter or slow down - Vaderios: I was wondering if you could create a mock-up of this concept with the above pictures.

It actually crossed my mind at the time, to suggest these small weapon systems could be like 'shorter range' ION cannons, when I speculated on altering the colours of the laserbolts from the current 'pinkish'/'rainbow' ones, and that they could have a similar 'electrical' blueish look to vaderio's previous mock-up! 

I guess I ended up focusing on colours that I thought would stand out more against the white/blue backgrounds of the AT-AT battle, but in hindsight I definately should have added that as an option anyway.  (I guess the 'electrical' effect from these ones doesn't necessarily need to be the whitish-blue of the bigger 'long-range' one!)

I agree.  It would indeed be neat to see a vaderios mock-up example of this using these particular shots, if he's willing.  Ideally I'd love to see 4 comparison colours of the same version he could come up - 'greenish yellow', 'whitish orange' (seen above) , 'whitish yellow', and yes, his 'whitish blue' too.  But I know that's a big ask.  Even one would be nice to see though.

As far as this whole backgrounds/skies issue goes, it's not something that has ever troubled me personally.  I can certainly see the appeal of it all having some kind of total consistency throughout, but I know the whole amazing sequence was just akin to being a tabletop or 2 covered in baking soda, with a piece of artwork behind it at the end of the day.  I've always been more interested in additional touches being applied to the elements within these inconsistent surroundings, such as the AT-AT's themselves, and therefore Adywan's extra touches during the sequence will no doubt be just what I'd hoped for.  If he somehow plans to convert the existing backgrounds into some sort of '3 Dimensional' version of vaderios recent 2D 'cyclorama', then I would be dumbstruck, as that is far and away beyond anything I'd expect him to attempt.  

He's going to be able to ramp up this sequence even more than it is already, in plenty of other ways though, Gawd bless 'im.

vaderios -  that is a fabulous concept with the 'falling AT-AT' there, but then the following shots of it might also need to be worked on to tie-in with it too.  And liking your idea of some 'camera shakes' in some shots, as well.  Loving your skills on these things.  :)    

vaderios said:

 

This pic is completely wrong. Because the bridge isnt there and these windows are looking at the wrong side...

-Angel

You'll be glad to know that Adywan is certainly aware of this, as it's been well addressed in the past.

In fact vaderios, you might be interested in the rest of the 'mock-ups' that were nicely put together for me by doubleofive at the time, as a bit of fun speculation concerning the 'Stardestroyers Blockade' scene and beyond, as well as some of my comments about it -  

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/STAR-WARS-EP-V-REVISITED-EDITION-ADYWAN-TEASER-TRAILER-CLIPS-AVAILABLE-NOW/topic/9060/page/108

I'm really interested to see how Adywan's version of this sequence eventually pans out!

Adywan -   about this 'Moons' thing...

Do you reckon that we should see any of them in any of the other Hoth planet shots shown in the above posts?  It might be a very nice subtle addition.

I don't know what 'Sector' Luke escapes from here, but would these Moons be visible in the other views of the planet that we also see during the 'Stardestroyer blockade'?

(Having said that, you might be removing them from this shot for all I know!)

By the way, that recent AT-AT post shouldn't take too long to read, as it's just got a lot of example shots throughout.  I think there's one or two relevant things in it though.

vaderios said:

The moon idea is good. It adds a character

Can it be TWIN moons?  That would be really good! 

The Hoth planet shot below shows a big one and a smaller one....

Sevb32 said:

Is Adywan gonna do anything about the fact we can't see Luke lying on the ground anywhere when the AT-AT he threw the explosive in falls?

Heh, I actually meant to mention that he is in fact planning to do just that, in my recent AT-AT post, but forgot!  That'll be a very cool addition.

vaderios -  that's another great image you've given us. (the AT-AT cyclorama) Nice one.

AuggieBenDoggie -  I'm pleased you're pleased.  And I'm sure all of Adywan's re-done lasers will be great, whatever the amount or colouration he decides on eventually.

doubleofive said:

But look at all the different colors of AT-ATs and sky in those shots!  Each one is different, like taking place on different days even!

Even the same walker has four completely different backgrounds in a few seconds!

Yeah, it's funny how the general action, along with a brief in-between scene here and there, can sell a multitude of differences between various elements.  That's the magic of 'movies' I guess.

Of course, early Film-makers didn't have to contend with rabid fans of certain movies scrutinising various shots with their sweaty thumbs poised over a 'pause' button, as is possible nowadays! 

A lot of things can seem worse in a still photograph, than is really the case.  And the reverse can be true too, of course, if the 'motion' of a fine element is poor.  (Well that's my one deep thought used up for this month then....)

Thanks again for your help by the way, doubleofive.  Can't wait to see Ady's 'one-man studio' efforts on this thing eventually!

In addition to my previous suggestions about the 2 dodgy AT-AT 'prop' shots -  http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/STAR-WARS-EP-V-REVISITED-EDITION-ADYWAN-TEASER-TRAILER-CLIPS-AVAILABLE-NOW/topic/9060/page/197/ , here's even more HOTH GROUND BATTLE-related musings than ILM can 'shake a stick at', for consideration -

In no particular order, I'll start with the smaller AT-AT laserbolts.... 

Firstly, here are just 3 examples of shots that feature the AT-AT's firing their smaller 'side-guns' -

I remember someone commented a while ago that they didn't think that the 'smaller' AT-AT guns fired at all....  But it turns out that in addition to the 3 examples shown above, that there are several other times scattered throughout the battle where we also see these 'smaller' guns firing in very quick bursts.  And they also have their own distinct 'rapid' sound effect.  

Adywan -  the AT-AT laserbolts are currently the SAME colour for both the 'big' guns and the 'smaller' guns, and although it seems that you are keeping the bigger, 'MAIN' laserbolts their EXISTING colour, I personally wouldn't be against seeing the SMALLER laserbolts from the 'side-guns', firing in a DIFFERENT colour perhaps....because a 'combination' of laserbolt colours could add additional interest and vibrancy to the sequence, and distinguish the smaller blasts a little more from the 'MAIN' AT-AT ones.  (and also from the other similarly-coloured Snowspeeder, Turret gun, and Rebel 'hand gun' ones flying about too)  Personally, I'd prefer these smaller bursts ALONE to be done in the same sort of excellent 'orange' with 'yellow core' colouring as your laserbolts from the floating 'Training Ball' aboard the Falcon in 'ANH:R'.  Anyway, just a final speculation on that, and I'm still entirely happy with BOTH sets of AT-AT laserbolts remaining the same-ish sort of existing colour as each other that we currently see, if that's your preference, as your 'tweaked' ones already look great in the clips.

However, my main hope about the AT-AT laserbolts in general though, is that while there are potential opportunities for some additional 'MAIN' laserbolts here and there....that there is ALSO plenty of scope for additional 'side-gun' laserbolts firing throughout, too.  There are lots of moments that these 'smaller' guns 'swivel' up and down, but yet are NOT currently seen firing, and it would be neat to see laserbolts added to some of these , especially during some of the scenes where hard-to-hit 'snowspeeder targets' fly quickly past them.  (With additional laserbolt sound effects too, of course)

Here's just some examples where it would be good to see some extra laserbolt action coming from the 'smaller' guns, where there are currently none, as it would really help to bring more 'intensity' to these 'miniature' shots -

....such as during the shot below, which comes immediately after Luke says "That armour's too strong for blasters" (and also during the preceding shot immediately before Luke says that, where 2 snowspeeders are seen passing the 'close-up' side of General Veer's AT-AT too, but which is not shown here) -

....and here during the shot below, where a snowspeeder (not shown here) passes the AT-AT's side a good bit higher nearest to us, compared to 'Wedge's' snowspeeder 'wrapping around' the AT-AT lower down.  And shouldn't there be a shadow added coming from the snowspeeder during this shot too, to tie-in with the previous 'wraparound' shot (not shown here) where it was casting one? -

....and here during the start of the shot below, where we might see a last, final burst added to the 'smaller' guns and/or the 'MAIN' ones, just as it starts to crash to the ground....aimed at 'Wedge's' snowspeeder that flies up away from it.  (Note: just beforehand, where we see the 'close-up' of 'Wedge' in his cockpit, as we hear Janson say "Cable detached" -  if you 'freezeframe' the shot, you can see that they are flying off upwards in front of the AT-AT, rather than behind it towards any others that might be coming behind at this point.  Going by the existing footage (where there are no other AT-AT's in the shots), it could be argued that this particular AT-AT could be imagined to be either the FURTHEST BACK one, or is off to the SIDE of the group....in which case it might have been less risky for 'Wedge' to 'release' the cable at a point where he could fly behind it until it toppled, so that he and Janson couldn't be fired at by it!) -

....and here during the shot below , where it would be good to see some fire coming from the smaller AT-AT in the distance (probably it's 'MAIN' ones), as it's onscreen a while doing nothing -

....and here during the start of the shot below, which comes immediately after Luke has dropped to the ground from the AT-AT's belly, where again, we might see  a last, final burst added to the 'smaller' guns and/or the 'MAIN' ones, during it's final step forward....immediately before the AT-AT judders to a standstill, and the 'explosions' start (green one first), due to Luke lobbing a 'grenade' inside it -

....then soon after the 2 shots above, we see Luke looking up from the ground at this AT-AT he's just dropped from, and then immediately see the bare shot below (which comes immediately before the AT-AT's 'head' explodes) -  Is it possible to have SOME kind of added detail in the background here, indicating ANY of the following elements in the distance , ahead of the AT-AT? -  Perhaps part of the Rebel Base, or Turret Guns firing towards the AT-AT (or some laserbolts anyway), or the Power Generator, or the ION Cannon (firing upwards?), or a further ahead AT-AT (or AT-ST even), or an oncoming snowspeeder or two, or some tiny Rebels, or some debris and smoke....  

Anything extra would be appreciated to enhance this shot, as all the AT-AT's are heading in the general direction of the Base and it's 'trench(s)', and getting nearer to it by this point in the battle.  The current background just shows some 'landscape' and nothing else.  Also, is there a little too much 'debris' shown on the ground near the AT-AT, during this shot, at this point? - 

....then just immediately after the shot above, we then cut to the shot below, where the AT-AT's 'head' explodes.  The explosion happens so quickly near the START of the shot, that unless you 'freeze-frame' it, you can't really tell that we don't see a hint of the noticeably 'sparking'/'falling panel' on the AT-AT's left-side that is seen during the preceding shot above.  It might be nice to know something similar has been added to the AT-AT's left-side here in the 1 or 2 frames before the explosion though, to tie the shots together -  

.....also, in the shot above, shouldn't the 'snow' obscuring the front of the miniature AT-AT's 'window' be removed completely, so that it matches all the other AT-ATs, such as the other 'close-up' example shown below , that appears earlier on in the battle?  (Even the AT-AT that ploughs headlong into the ground doesn't get 'snow' in this area during it's fall)  And as I think someone suggested previously, I reckon it might be neat to have the subtle hint of an AT-AT crewmember (or two) be momentarily seen to be 'blown outwards' during the 'head's' explosion in the shot above, in a somewhat similar way to the unfortunate TIE pilot, during the 'asteroid chase'!

....then after the AT-AT's 'head' explodes in the shot shown 2 above, there is the briefest of 'dramatic pauses' where the screen goes black momentarily, before we then cut to the shot below as the AT-AT finally falls on it's side to the ground.  Could a subtle laserbolt or two (firing towards the unseen Rebels in front) be added to the smaller AT-AT in the distance during the few seconds that this shot lasts? - 

....also, during this shot below, we see that the falling AT-AT's rear-left 'foot-stem' suddenly shakes loose mid-fall.  It's not too much of a biggie, but this always makes the shot immediately stand out as being a little too much like a 'miniature' for my liking, and I'd much prefer to see this wobbling 'foot-stem' not come 'loose' if possible.  Having said that, I don't know if it can be improved much considering the sudden 'displacement' of the angle of the rear-left 'foot' itself, without some attention from Adywan....  Perhaps if the AT-AT's 'fall' could be 'slowed down' a tad (like the 'asteroid slug' was), it might give it a bit more 'scale' and improve things a little -

Of course, the problem is that the whole 'foot' of the 'miniature' was originally poked upwards with a 'stick' by an ILM crewmember, so the AT-AT would topple! (couldn't they have pulled it over less awkwardly with some fine 'fishgut' instead, lol?) -  Seen clearer here in all it's glory - 

This was all well and good back in the day, considering the limitations at the time, and it certainly wasn't something I ever focused on before, considering I was more distracted by the wobbly 'foot-stem' that came loose instead!  It's a small thing, but it seems kind of slipshod that no-one at Lucasfilm seems to have deemed it a good idea to put it's much-vaunted CGI capabilities to some good use here, and erase this 'stick' for the SE DVD release....  It's the same kind of nice obvious little fix that was determinedly omitted on the 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' DVD release too, where we can still see that damned 'pole' that overturns the truck from underneath, before it explodes. 

(Note to George and Steven -  That very noticeable 'pole' does NOT enhance the shot in any way, and I still can't quite get my head around the fact it wasn't removed for the DVD release, given the opportunity afforded by CGI at that point.  Especially since you went CGI-apeshit with 'Indy 4'!  Still....at least Adywan will be getting rid of the 'stick' now, thankfully!)

Something that's also been always jarring, has been the AT-AT shot with the 'pink legs'.  During the shots when Luke's snowspeeder has crashed, the approaching legs in the middle shot below suddenly have an unnatural 'pink' colouration, compared to the leg shots before and after it.  Can you get rid of all the 'pinkness' so that the legs are greyer to tie-in better with the top and bottom shots, if possible?  (It's not too obvious in the shot shown here, but the 'pinkness' is glaring on the SE release) - 

Adywan, I know you mentioned previously that you might end up doing away with the AT-ST, but I'm personally hoping not.  In defence of it's appearance halfway through the AT-AT Battle, I remember that during my first ever cinema viewing of 'Empire', that when the (original) 'chicken walker' suddenly appeared in the shot below, that there was a big ripple of approval about it's funny-looking design.   It just seemed to be such a typically inventive 'Star Wars' contraption at the time, with its slightly humourous, brisker walk, that added greatly to the ongoing visuals, albeit briefly.  And so it was then good to see a second short appearance of it a little later on too, as seen in the bottom shot below.

Also, I remember you said something about the 'chicken walker' looking as if it's not on the same 'level' as the AT-AT in the foreground.  However, on re-watching the SE version onscreen, the shot still works fine for me, from that angle under the AT-AT's head.  And if the AT-ST is indeed 'higher' up than the AT-AT, it could just be that the 'chicken walker' is on a slightly higher area beside the AT-AT.  If you do keep it, it would be neat to see the the 'chicken walker' fire at least once during it's shots though.  Also, the AT-AT's front-right leg seems strangely 'serated' during the AT-STs first appearance, as if there's a little piece missing (it's the same on the GOUT), as can be seen in the first two shots below.  It's leg should be straight at either side of that section.  Could you fix this sometime? -        

Returning to the subject of 'lasers' again briefly....  Apart from the similar colours of both sets of AT-AT guns/Snowspeeder guns/Rebel 'hand-guns'/ Turret guns laserbolts....there are also the 'multi-coloured' ones of the ION Cannon and the Rebel's 'round' gun emplacements.  Personally I was never too keen on some of these, as some of them seem 'over-painterly' and very unconvincing.  However, it seems that you are now doing a take on vaderio's excellent 'electrical' blueish-white ones for the ION Cannon, which is great news as far as I'm concerned.  This is just another 'what if?', but what's your thoughts on the eventual colour of the Rebel's 'round' gun emplacements firing, being changed too? -

Here's a rough example of how the current 'multi-coloured' laserbolts look -

....and here's another variation where we see the detail of a 'round' gun emplacement only 'powering-up' in 'orange' before it eventually releases a 'multi-coloured' laserbolt (note: the previous example seemed to have a 'greenish-yellow' 'power-up') - 

Okay, the 'what if' I'm throwing out here is, instead of the laserbolts from the 'round' gun emplacements staying at their current sort of overall 'pinkness', which is similar to a lot of other laserbolts flying around already, that they instead become an ALTERNATIVE colour throughout the sequence....while REMAINING the same colour that is seen during their 'powering-up' glows -  this means either ORANGEY or GREENISH laserbolts or BOTH, as we see both types of 'power-up' glows.  (They can even be made YELLOW or any other colour wished, at the end of the day)  Personally, I actually like any of these, as the main thing would be that they'd add a bit of extra visual interest, and are more easily distinguished from the similar-coloured laserbolts already on show from the various other weapon systems, without being wildly 'rainbow-coloured' at times.... 

Finally, I'd just like to bring up this poor piece of stop-motion 'continuity' where the top shot immediately cuts to the bottom one, and reveals that the angles of the legs are not matching whatsoever....but more distractingly, shows the WRONG front-leg hitting the snow FIRST in the bottom shot! -

Now I don't know if it's possible to really sort the legs out properly during this shot or not, but if it can be, then that is fantastic....but if not, then it could be worth considering the following 'cheat' which involves 'flipping' the top shot so that the same front-leg hits the snow first.  (It can only be the legs that are 'flipped' into reverse, as the AT-ATs are not covered with 'symmetrical' detailing on their main structure)  Either way, it would be great to see some added thin 'cable' wrapped around the legs of the AT-AT shot shown above as it falls into the snow, shifting as the legs collapse.  Also, there's a small side panel that comes off as it falls, and a bigger panel that 'flaps open' then closes again.  I've always thought this 'flapping' side panel gives away the miniature too much, and that it would look more substantial if this panel didn't 'flap' open....  Also, at the very start of the top shot above of the legs beginning to topple, the REAR-LEFT 'foot' PIN 'jerks' suspiciously back into place suddenly.  Can this be fixed?  Here's how the sequence would now look, if this was done -

Immediately after Jansen has attached a 'cable' to the 'wobbly' AT-AT 'foot' PROP, Wedge says "Good shot Jansen" and starts to wrap around the oncoming AT-AT -

....then we cut to a 1 second side-on 'close-up' of Jansen grinning in his cockpit, before we then cut to the shot below -

....then we cut to 15 seconds of one or two other shots of the Snowpeeder continuing to fly around the AT-AT's legs, as well as various 'close-ups' of Wedge and Jansen as they 'detatch' their cable and fly off in front of the tangled AT-AT, before we eventually then cut to this shot below , which is now 'flipped' into reverse! -

....then we immediately cut from the 'flipped' shot above showing the entangled RIGHT-front leg falling first....back to the way things currently are in the shot below, and our eyes are drawn to the forward motion of the RIGHT-front leg shown here ALSO hitting the ground first!  (Note:  the rear legs don't match the angles of the shot above  either, even when unflipped....but a viewer is far more likely to focus on what is going on with the front legs hitting the snow anyway, especially after repeated viewings)  And you'll soon get used to the change of 'camera angle' from what you've been used to.  ;)  - 

....and we then continue on the sequence till it's conclusion as normal....as we wonder when Adywan might spring his next 'flipped' shot on us! -

That finally covers everything AT-AT-related that I wanted to express, so I can concentrate on some last few other little issues scattered throughout the movie from hereonin.  :)

Happy days for us all indeed Adywan!  Great news that you managed to get a good one for what's needed on this thing.  :)

I also see you really liked some of vaderio's ideas then.  I'm especially pleased that you liked his 'electrical' ION Cannon laserbolts concept.  I can't wait to see your own finished version of that.

I'm going to post a lengthy follow-up very shortly about some remaining thoughts to do with the whole AT-AT battle sequence, and I hope you'll find something of interest amongst the different aspects of it.  I'd like to thank doubleofive once again for kindly supplying the shots I wanted to show here. 

adywan said:

Sorry i haven't been around guys but i decided to crack on with ESB:R.

 

Now i have hell of a lot of reading to do to catch up so i'll try to reply to all these as soon as i can

Adywan, have you managed to catch up with some of the neat comments and ideas that were floated around here in your absence before you posted the above along with your great new 'asteroid slug' link a few pages back?

vaderios was especially in overdrive with some very interesting mock-ups here and on the 'ESB and ROTJ Wishlist' thread during this time.  Hope you saw his efforts. 

Your latest 'jump cut fix' looks terrific of course, and your 'Bespin balcony' work looks excellent too.  The thing I actually like the most is the fact that there is not an overpowering 'reflection' of the orange sky on the floor anymore.  And putting the 'railing' higher was great.  I can't remember if it was Bingowings that flagged that up originally, or not, but I really liked that idea at the time, so am glad to see it incorporated.

Great news on the HD Camcorder front sooner rather than later I see, from sketchrob and others in these 'credit-crunched' times.  There's nothing worse than not having the correct materials/tools available when you're on a roll with something good.

Being an artist, I'm sure sketchrob knows that this is real ART you are creating here, which you are amazing us with as you go along.  They can keep their 'pickled sharks', and 'unmade beds'....this is true talent! 

Adywan, your latest clip of part of the 'asteroid slug' sequence is simply brilliant!!

I'm very pleased that you are keeping the existing design of it (and it's teeth).  TMBTM's idea of 'retractable' teeth should look quite neat at the start.  The 'slowed down' movement of the slug's 'lunge' really makes a great improvement to the 'scale' of it.  And I see that you've also removed that suspect 'piece of elastic' from the base of the slug.  :)

I also think your additional asteroids look excellent, and I'm really pleased we see the asteroid field beyond the teeth of the slug now, too.  The addition of the 'crater wall' in the shot of the Millennium Falcon escaping is also a terrific addition.  This whole scene is a huge improvement already, and I look forward to what you can achieve with the other parts of it.

I am in awe that you are now planning to physically build a 'slug mouth' (with tongue) interior now....as well as a new 'canyon', ontop of the other stuff.  Wonderful.  You just can't beat that 'old-school' vibe!

Sevb32 -  I really like your notion of showing a little more 'ground mist' as the Falcon approaches the teeth by the way.  That slug's tongue and belly is pretty putrid I bet...

doubleofive -  A brief, underlying 'Force choke rumble' during that little Vader/Lando exchange would indeed be neat.  (I hope to definately post those other AT-AT comments this week! ;) )

sketchrob -  Nice one, and I hope that Adywan can even eventually get that CANON HD10 which seems to be the business.  I wonder how many on this site will want one too, now?  They should give him a free one considering they won't get a much higher recommendation.

Ziz -  I don't know if you missed it before, but Ady has previously mentioned that part of the appeal of doing this edit is the fact that he will enjoy making the stuff along the way, himself.  I've come across some shots of his work in the past that he's made, and hope that he will be able do his own stuff for this eventually, if possible.   

ladyferry -  Thanks for the YouTube link as always.

Intriguing....

Things are coming along nicely on this great project I see  :)