These are in no way any more complete than anything they've released.
Seeing as it is simply a repackaging of the SE's, lets discuss what's not on the SE's:
A New Hope is missing a few alternate takes including an alternate End Titles.
Empire is missing the alternate "Rebel Fleet," "End Credits (Film)" and the film ending to "Luke's Nocturnal Visitor."
Jedi is missing... god where to I begin:
~ 90 seconds of score ~ 6 second Ewok Forest Battle Insert Lapti Nek Versions (film, film instrumental, album, extended album, album instrumental, english) Unknown Source cue Max Rebo Band Songs 1 and 2 Alternate Leia's News Yub Nub (Film, Ewok, Choir) Jabba the Hutt's Suite (original recording)
the new program so far has only been used partially on the Jedi set, and completely on this new Empire edit.
I'm planning on using it and going back and completely redoing all my edits. I'm going to redo my Jurassic Park complete score, my Jedi is going to be redone seeing as I've learned more information...
I also have been listening to my Episode I set and as pleased as I am with that, I've found a few errors that need fixing and I will fix.
That may be my next set to do actually... we'll see.
I ran into that myself... It's highly disappointing.
The Corellian CD is a compilation disc that they gave out at Target as an exclusive with the Episode III soundtrack.
I heard that the OT tracks on it have a great deal of reverb added to them to make them sound better .... to keep the sound from being so much different than the PT scores. But unfortunately, they added too much and I hear it sounds crappy...
The SE releases, as we've discussed, are not worth buying... until they fix them...
This being the THIRD time they were were released lol...
so you're really paying $90 for stickers, posters, and CD artwork that you can get in a few of the threads here lol
I also wanted to let you all know that in my complete scores edit thread, I've announced I finished my Empire edit so if anyone is interested in that, go to that thread.
It corrects all the mixing errors, really brings out a much more balanced and full sound, and also expands the set, including alternates left off the SE.
But yea... this set is disappointing.
I would recommend that all of you try to become as knowledgeable about the score as possible. I'm kinda fighting a war here... I'm trying to spread the information as much as possible to get as many people knowledgeable as possible so that Sony will have no choice but to fix the edits heh...
I would also recommend against buying this set especially if you already have the releases. There's no point in getting the Corellian disc. All you need is to save your music to your computer and make a playlist ooOooo That's all they did. They ripped the music from the already released discs and added reverb to the OT tracks...
The others are the same except the artwork which is available in many of the threads in the preservation area about the original LP releases.
The only other thing in the set are stickers and a fold out posters with, as someone joked, "digitized creases" lol
just wanted to let you all know that the updated Discs have been uploaded.
All three mp3 sets are up.
Also, I took the liberty of making correction packs for people who'd rather simply fix the tracks than re download the whole cd's.
Those are up as well for mp3.
Disc 2 in Flac is up. Disc 3 is uploading (will take about an hour), then I'm gonna upload disc 1.
After that, I'll upload the flac correction sets.
If any of you have a 5.1 set up on your computer or something, I'd recommend listening to at least some of it that way... it sounds amazing....
I'm really really really happy with this. I set out to just fix a few things... quick easy fix... some month or more later, I have a set that I can say is perhaps THE best set I've ever put out.
Firstly I'd like to apologize to all the people out there who've downloaded my set... I've gone back and fixed quite a few of the tracks on every disc. No discs have added tracks, all I've done is gone back and fix mixing on a few tracks...
I'm going to take down the sets, replace them with the new sets... and the new music I'll upload disc by disc, format by format
I really like how the set sounds now... it sounded pretty good before, but now it almost sounds professional in my opinion. The set on the whole feels much more cohesive...the sound is steady and the mixes are very similar and don't flop go from hissy to clean like it did before with a few tracks...
I mean, the fact that I'm mixing stuff ripped from the Star Wars Musical Journey DVD and it fits in perfectly should give you an idea....
Heres a list of the Updated Tracks:
Disc 1:
04 Wampa Ice-Lair 06 Snowspeeders Take Flight 08 Attack Positions 13 The Asteroid Field 15 Setting up Camp 17 Han Solo and the Princess 19 The Training of a Jedi Knight
Disc 2:
02 Yoda and the Force 03 Imperial Starfleet Deployed 07 Betrayal at Bespin 09 Deal with the Dark Lord 10 Carbon Freeze 11 Han Solo in Carbonite (Film) 12 Luke Pursues the Captives 16 Hyperspace
Disc 3
10 Star Wars Disco (same as before but the complete track) 11 The Imperial March Disco (same as before but better source)
I'll let you know when it's all up. 16 Finale (Alternate) End Credits (Film)
As for an isolated score, you are more than welcome to trying. In my other thread in the preservation area, I have a link to my complete score edits.
I have so far done Episode I, III, V, and VI. I've corrected a lot of the mistakes...
However, you may wish to hold off on downloading them. I've come into finding more material and been able to correct some of the things I did and make the tracks sound even better than before...
One such thing is I found the LP has the recording of "Rebel Fleet /Finale" from Empire that is the extended version, correctly mixed, where as the SE is incorrectly mixed. With these two, I can create a better sounding , correctly mixed version and replace the one on my set.
So again, I'll keep you all posted on that in the other thread.
I also took the liberty of emailing someone from Sony. I have a friend who has contacts everywhere... from Disney to Sony hehe...so I emailed the guy. Here is what I sent him:
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Hello, My name is Bernard Kyer. I am emailing you on behalf of two rather large fanbases: The Star Wars fan base, and the John Williams Fan base, representing the three large online communities of Jwfan.net, OriginalTrilogy.com, and StarWars.com. The problem that we would like addressed are the current releases--and non releases--of the complete scores to the Star Wars saga. Currently, we know that SonyBMG has plans to release a 30th anniversary set entitled "The Music of Star Wars." From what we know, this set is nothing but a repackaging of the Special Edition releases of the scores with some extras and 2 unknown discs. As indebted as we are to Sony, Michael Matessino, and Eric Tomlinson as we the fans are, we have found that there is still a great disservice done to the fanbase through these sets.
Many fans waited since 1977 to get the complete scores to the films, and when the scores were released, eagerly bought them. Since then, many fans have enjoyed the set, but there is a growing group of fans who are becoming more and more disenchanted with the release.
The release to “A New Hope” is nearly perfect. There is little I can say is wrong with this release.
The releases of “Empire” and “Jedi,” however, require a lot of attention.
“Empire,” for instance, had two music editors during the remastering process: Eric Tomlinson and Brian Risner. Tomlinson was an excellent mixer, and his mixing on the score shines out.
Risner, however, is a failure in almost every aspect.
Every cue mixed by Risner has a fatal flaw: the horn channels are swapped.
Like the original RCA/Victor Anthology release which suffered from having let and right channels flipped on several of the Empire tracks on disc 4, the 1997 and subsequent 2005 releases of Empire has a similar but UN-FIXABLE flaw.
Unlike the Anthology, which with any simple editing program, you need but import the track and flip the channels, the Sony release as mixed by Risner cannot be fixed. Every other instrument is correct except the horns.
“Main Title,” for instance: this iconic track that is recorded for every film is incorrectly mixed in this way.
This may seem nitpicky, but it is a fault with the mixing, a MAJOR fault to John Williams’ vision, and to the memories of Star Wars fans everywhere. Especially since these are the “Definitive Editions.”
This is but one aspect of Risner’s mixing that is at fault. His mixing also lacks in its depth and width. The mixing is extremely narrow. Perhaps two of the most iconic pieces from “Empire,” are “Imperial Walkers” and “The Imperial March.”
Both of these tracks suffer from flipped horn channels and incorrect mixing. The mix is so narrow, that in Imperial Walkers, the two pianos sound like a single piano in front! Ironically, in the Williams performance notes, he says “the more pianos the better” and yet in this release, the two loud pianos become a single entity because of faulty mixing.
Imperial March, the powerhouse piece of the saga sounds flat, and mono. The strings are nearly non existent and the exchange between instruments is lost at this level of mixing.
One such error is also in the mixing of the Harp and the celesta. In nearly every cue, Risner mixes these instruments into the center, instead of in the left/right channels respectively. This is not how classical music is mixed. This is not how John Williams music is mixed, and is a very noticeable error.
Listen to “Training of a Jedi Knight” on the SE and compare it to any other release. There should be a dialogue between the plucking of the upper strings in the left channel and the celesta in the right channel. However, the mixing is so narrow that it simply sounds like everyone is plucking and banging away.
“Jedi” however, has a plethora of errors. These errors are understandable, however, as the correct masters for Jedi could not be located for the release, HOWEVER, since then, the correct and supposedly complete masters have resurfaced. The entire Jedi release suffers from great hiss removal and sounds dead to the ear, as if listened to through a woolen blanket.
Compare the track “Superstructure Chase” to the nearly identical cue from “A New Hope,” “Tie Fighter Attack” recorded nearly 10 years earlier with far smaller budget with less technology available in 1986, and with a smaller ensemble.
You find that Superstructure Chase sounds so muffled and muddled, that it’s almost not worth listening to. Worse still are the missing pieces. As stated, some of the masters could not be located for the release, but have since been discovered. A cleaner, correctly mastered release is in order.
Also, and exhaustive search should be conducted for the lost masters of the Album Recording Sessions in which cues such as the Original Jabba the Hutts Concert Suite would be located, along with the plethora of source cues that are missing to this day that fans will pay greatly for.
Every person I’ve spoken to has said if this 30th anniversary release is truly just a repackage of the sony cd’s, they won’t buy it. But if the 2 unknown cd’s are the unreleased cues, they WILL pay the nearly $100 tab JUST for those TWO CD’s.
If that doesn’t tell you how much in demand this music is, I don’t know what will.
Equally so, the fans have said that if these Two CD’s are unreleased Prequel tracks, they will also pay that much just for them.
Which brings me to my next point: the prequel scores.
As a child who grew up with these films, and not the originals, and as a fan of John Williams, I must say that these scores are jems. My favourite score to this day is the Episode I score.
Sony has said that because of the dud “Ultimate Edition,” there are no plans for future releases of the complete Prequel scores. This is a travesty!
The Ultimate Edition is the only time I can think of (and I am an avid film score collector) where a score has been marketed as being a “Complete Release,” when in actuality, it is simply an “Isolated Score,” meaning that it is the music as heard in the film (with edits, omissions, and digital editing all in place), and NOT how the composer intended. This is fine for a DVD isolated track, but it is Unheard of as a CD release.
The failure of this release can be pinpointed to that fact.
If a proper, complete release that does the score justice (at least 3 CD’s including the alternates we KNOW exist for “Duel of the Fates,” “The Battle for Naboo,” etc) the fans will pay for these, and whatever Sony asks.
Equally, the complete scores to Episode II and Episode III are in great demand at this time. Everyone had high hopes that these scores would be at least expanded upon in this 30th Anniversary season, but the hopes are starting to dwindle.
There is a great demand as evident by threads on Jwfan.net, originaltrilogy.com, and even Starwars.com.
If Sony could releases these scores, the fans would defiantly shell out large sums of money (if they had been boxed in a 15 cd set, some have said they will pay $150 for them just to get the complete and corrected editions).
Sony is at a place right now where it is like no one in history, it is uniquely capable of releasing some of the most Iconic film scores of this century. You are literally sitting on the scores which have all been digitized and are available on your computer systems. They need but be mixed (PROPERLY) and released.
The fans will buy these sets. If Sony were to ask the fans, the answer would be undeniably “Yes!”
But the fans will NOT buy repackaged SE’s, and will not buy Ultimate Editions. The fans are more intelligent than that, and to assume otherwise would be an insult to fans.
Please, I ask of you, if you know of any way I can get in contact with someone about these releases, if you are not the correct person, I would be greatly indebted to you.
These scores are some of the most hotly sought after commodities. Certain pieces have leaked over the years, and the bootlegs online go for hundreds of dollars. You, as well as I, know that people will find ways to get what they want. Why not get in on that?
If Sony can release these scores properly, and be honorable and do them justice, then the fans will repay that honesty and will buy these sets and tell everyone to as well.
Again, thank you for your time. My reason in pointing out the errors in the sets is that too few people realize the extent of the errors, and the people who buy these scores love Star Wars and John Williams and the scores so much, that when they find out there are problems, they become knowledgeable and outraged. The knowledge is spreading across the fanbase and the cry for corrected and completed releases is growing in demand.
Thank you again for your time. I hope to hear back from you.
-Bernard Kyer 21, Daytona Beach Florida Film Score Fan, Audiophile, John Williams Fan, Star Wars Fan, John Williams Fan
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I'll let you know what I get back from this, as well as another email I sent to Sony Customer service that ADigitalMan posted the link to.
This is that letter:
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As an avid John Williams fan and a fan of the Star Wars saga, I have to say this:
We need a proper release of the complete scores.
Sony has said before that they have no plans to release the complete scores to the prequel trilogy and no plans seem to be made to fix the Original Trilogy.
I formally would like to state that if Sony made a proper release, then people WILL buy the sets.
The Ultimate Edition for Episode I was not the complete score as it was marketed to be. Instead, it was (to my knowledge) the only time a score has been released edited to show what it sounded like in the film, and NOT the composers original intention. Because of this, most fans were angry and decided against buying it.
If it were released in complete form (at least 3 CD's), this would be a top seller guaranteed. The other Prequel scores also need a complete release.
As for the original trilogy, the currently available scores for Empire and Jedi are very poor in quality. One only need but compare a few Jedi tracks to A New Hope to hear how poor they sound, despite the fact they were recording nearly 10 years latter with far better equipment and funding.
Empire was also improperly mixed by Risner. Every track he mixed he flipped the Horn Channels, mixed the harp too close to the center along with percussion and celesta and made the overall mix almost Mono, removing the surround sound aspect to John Williams orchestrations and removing the power from "The Imperial March."
For a definitive release, these errors are inexcusable.
Also, the amount of material omitted from these "definitive releases" is staggering.
With the re-discovery of better Jedi masters, a new release including the COMPLETE scores, mixed properly, is in order.
I have made an outline of every error in the Empire and Jedi Sets:
Empire- Disc 1/Track 1 - Mixed by Risner (too narrow) Empire- Disc 1/ Track 2 - Mixed by Risner so the horn channels are flipped Empire - Disc 1/Track 3 - The synth is improperly mixed causing digital noise Empire - Disc 1/Track 4 - This track could be cleaned up Empire - Disc 1/Track 5 - Imperial Walkers to the end is mixed by Risner far too narrowly, horn channels are flipped, and the overall sound is poor Empire - Disc 1/Track 6 - Mixed by Risner (too narrow, horn channels fliped) Empire - Disc 1/Track 8 - Mixed by Risner (" ") Empire - Disc 1/Track 9 - Mixed by Risner (" ") Harp is incorrectly in the center Empire - Disc 1/Track 10 - Jedi Master Revealed mixed by Risner (" ") Harp incorrectly in Center Empire - Disc 1/Track 11 - Mixed by Risner (" ") Harp in center as is the celesta
Empire - Disc 2/Track 1 - Mixed by Risner. (" ") The poorest mix ever released of this powerhouse piece. (Horns Flipped) Empire - Disc 2/Track 2 - Mixed by Risner (" ") The poorest mix ever of this piece (Horns Flipped) Empire - Disc 2/Track 4 - Mixed by Risner (too narrow, with harp incorrectly in the center with the celesta. Horn channels flipped) Empire - Disc 2/Track 5 - The whole mix of this track is a bit off but the "City in the Clouds" portion mixed by Risner is horrible, with horns flipped, the choir far too loud and the harp in the center Empire - Disc 2/Track 6 - Mixed by Risner (" ") Empire - Disc 2/Track 10 - Mixed by Risner (" ") Empire - Disc 2/Track 11 - "Hyperspace" is mixed by Risner so narrowly that the strings are almost mono, the horns are flipped, and the effect of the cue is lost completely.
Empire - Disc 2/ Track 12 - Mixed by Risner (" ")
Also, the alternate for both cues on track 12 ("Finale" and "End Credits" are ignored and not placed on the set).
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Errors from Return of the Jedi:
The entire score sounds muffled. This is in part due to the fact that the original masters for most of the score could not be located. They have seen been found and a corrected release is in order.
Rather than list every cue, just know that every cue has the ability to be remixed from better quality masters and should be done so since the mix is so poor on the release that almost every cue sounds muffled, lost, and muddy.
Also, an extensive search into where the still missing material is should be conducted.
The material missing from the SE includes:
Jabba the Hutt Concert Suite - Original Album Recording Session Lapti Nek - Film Lapti Nek - Film Instrumental Lapti Nek - Album Lapti Nek - Extended Album Lapti Nek - Album instrumental Lapti Nek - English Max Rebo Band Song 1 Max Rebo Band Song 2 Unknown Joseph Williams Unused Source Cue The Forest Battle Insert Yub Nub (Choir) Yub Nub (Ewok) Yub Nub (Film) Victory Celebration (Film) Leia's News (Alternate)
The correct takes for cues such as "Superstructure Chase" should also be used in the mix as the one on the SE is not the correct take or is an incorrectly edited version of this cue.
Thank you for taking the time to look at my request. I realize there is a 30th anniversary set being released, and from the rumors I'm hearing, it will simply be a repackaging of the already available SE's which as I have shown here, need to be addressed.
Thank you and I would love to hear back from you -Bernard Kyer (21, Florida)
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Again, if I get anything back I'll let you all know.
yes... whatever the dates are... if you have the original releaes... the ones in the boxes or with the Special Edition film releases poster covers with the great liner notes... keep those... I guess they are the 1997 releases...
don't bother "upgrading" to the new ones with just screen savers... until the fix them, you're fine with what you have.
wow...that is so far over my head I felt like I was reading jibberish lol
Um...
The sound difference between the 2004 and 2007 releases of the scores is inconsequential. The errors are still present, and the only major difference is the omission of the GREAT liner notes by Matessino... so really, I'd hang on to the 2004 release and not worry about getting the sony one until they fix it.
I wonder who I could contact at sony though. If I could find someone to contact there, I would...
EDIT:
I think just the artwork is duplicated, not the release.
And as for hidden, yes. If you listen to "Corbon Freeze" there is a segment after the carbon freeze Vader's theme, and before the Han and Leia love theme. This 30 second piece was the original music that was composed for when Han is pulled out of the tank and layed down on the ground, in place of the Han and Leia love theme... It was placed before the film alternate, but no mention of its inclusion is made.
You can view the cover art, see the track list, and listen to the tracks. They seem to be taken directly from the albums however (edits intact and track names the same).
If anyone gets this, could you let me know.
Apparently this was the Target exclusive cd and they are just now pacakaging it alone. I've also foudn some information from Film Score Monthly:
Sony Classical will celebrate the 30th Anniversary of Star Wars by releasing several versions of a Star Wars Anniversary collection that includes a single-disc John Williams ‘best of’ grouping of 13 tracks from all 6 Star Wars films and will be called Star Wars: The Corellian Edition. The other version is a Box set containing 8CDs of Star Wars scores including 2CD Expanded Editions of A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, and The Return of the Jedi. Each episode CD will be contained in a gate-fold mini-jackets that are exact replicas of the original LP sleeves. The 30th Anniversary Collector’s Edition 8CD Box will also contain a fold-out poster created specifically for this set, historical notes of the creation of the soundtracks, and 4”x4” four-colour stickers. Whatever your desire is, the Star Wars collection is coming to a galaxy near you (sorry I said that.) The Box arrives on October 8 whilst the single disc Corellian Edition arrives on October 2.
It still doesn't explain what the last 2 discs are... some speculate it could be TPM UE... which sucks... I don't know why they'd bother packaging that.
I hope that if these are the SE's in a box set, they at least fixed them.
In Empire, the alternates are all released in some form, but not all of them were digitally remastered and included on the SE set.
For Jedi, the alternates are said to be missing.
For A New Hope, there is some debate about the origin of the alternate take of the end credits, but there were some 400 takes so variations in orchestration do occur and are slowly changed during the recording process... happens all the time.
The alternates are things like an Ewok Insert to replace a portion of "The Forest Battle," or "End Credits" from Empire which is really just a different editing of the tracks (there is the album edit and the film edit. The Album is more 'listenable' where as the film Is more accurate to what was wanted I suppose but is more jarring.)
There is the alternate "Han Solo in Carbonite" cue which is on the set but is hidden. There is the alternate "Finale" which isn't on the set and is only on the anthology. There is the alternate Sail Barge Assault which came from the masters for the Anthology, not from the actual masters so the quality isn't as good as it could be. On top of that, it's the "Album concert suite" recording session, not the actual film recording.
Example of differences between Film and Album concert suite recording:
"The Ewok Battle" and "Ewok Battle Concert Suite" ... they are almost literally the same, but there are slight orchestration differences and the concert suite is longer of course. But if we only had the concert suite, we'd still would be missing a great cue of the film version of "The Ewok Battle."
These are things composed for the films, usually at different points or for different edits of the film. When the film is re-edited, Williams would come in and rescore them such as Sail Barge Assault which is said to have been one of the most complex edits of the original trilogy becuase of there being so much action going on simultaneously. Because of this, the edit went through several versions. Williams scored the original edit.
Then Ben Burtt went back and kept tweaking the scene and adding in more, extending some portions and shrinking others. Then Williams came back in and rescored that edit.
Burtt, however, kept working until they "got it right" as Lucas said, but by then, Williams was no longer available to re-score the scene and record the music so they had to use what they had and edit it to how you hear it in the film.
Problems with all Album releases: John Williams had been around for quite a few years by the time he composed the scores for the star wars trilogy. At that time, it was common practice to compose a score for a film, and then arrange cues from the film for an album release. Around this time however, Williams started using a different technique. Rather than record the album separately and have to arrange the music for it, he would record the score, and edit the score to highlight cues from the film, edited together in a sort of concert suite approach.
In this, many cues are lost, left unreleased or partially unreleased.
The LP's:
Original LP for Star Wars: Biggest issue is the entire score is not released. The quality is actually very very good. Unlike CD's, the music is not digitally compressed and is considered to be almost near "reality" as possible. It's funny to think of the price we paid for convenience and for technology.
Original LP for Empire: Same as the first. Even with the double LP's released, the entire scores are not presented.
Original LP for Return of the Jedi: Some of the most defining moments for this film are left off. Stranger still about this film is the lack of a Double LP set. Perhaps because of the popularity of CD's, LP's began to loose a foothold and a single disc became more feasable and would cost less on both ends. This SEVERELY cut down on the amount of music released.
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The first CD's:
CD's as I mentioned contain the music from the LP's in an almost strict copy to CD but unlike LP's, cd's are compressed. The music presented on the CD's often lack a lot of the clarity and depth and reality that the LP's present and for this reason, many people often say they prefer the old LP's to the CD's.
As I said, the CD's are almost strict copies of the LP's HOWEVER some information and documentation had been lost over the time as you have to realize in this time, when they edited the music, they literally edited the music tapes. Some of the CD's used alternate or incorrect takes.
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The Anthology Set:
Perhaps one of the most loved of the releases, the Anthology presents a wealth of music along with a great booklet.
Problems with the Anthology:
A New Hope: One of the biggest problems was the company putting together this set was denied access to vaults and to a lot of materials that would normally be required to put a set together. Limited access to copies of masters was granted so the quality of the music is still a further step down from the LP. Also, proper documentation on the exact editing of the score (the correct takes of cues used, where they are edited, how many edits, what take is used of the ~400 takes) was thought lost so the people working on the set guessed.
This led to incorrect editing, usage of improper takes, and a few other errors like this.
Example: Compare "Throne Room" on the Anthology to the "Throne Room" on the SE. You'll find that the horns do a triplet on the Anthology but a duplet on the SE. This is an alternate take and was not meant to ever be used and although it shows the creative decisions behind the composing of the score and recording of the score, it denies the definitive and final creative choice/version meant to be heard.
Empire Strikes Back: One of the more complete of the trilogy, the second disc highlights and shows a great wealth of cues. I personally have always preferred this CD to the 2 DISC SE for reasons I will discuss in a bit.
Several of the cues on disc 2 suffer from omissions of material heard in the film but not here (such as the music that plays in the helicopter establishing shot of Luke riding his tauntaun on Hoth). Some of the cues warble in and out of tune at times and it has been said that several cues were transferred at the incorrect speed (compare Imperial March to the same from the SE).
For the most part, the only issue is the less than stellar copy of the master used to produce this.
Unfortunately, the Empire tracks on the 4th disc weren't so lucky. Many of the extra tracks from Empire tacked on the 4th disc suffered from editing errors. The second half of a few tracks such as "Drawing the Battle Lines/Leia's Instructions" suffer from flipped Left/Right channels. This occurs on several cues in this. Why it occurred is perhaps carelessness as the cello/bass are suppose to be in the right channel and the violins in the left. A simple editing program can flip these back to the correct sides however, but the release does have these errors.
Return of the Jedi: Some of the most interesting aspects of this score is how bad it has always sounded. It has never truly had the clarity or depth that any of the other recordings had. The strings in every release lack quality and strength and almost don't exist in the mixes and are bland and weak.
Aside from the amount of material lacking in this release for the set, Film versions of cues are left off. "Lapti Nek" on the 4th disc is an album recording and is one of 6 recordings: (some have been released denoted by *)
Film Version *Album Version *Extended Album Version *Instrumental Film Instrumental English Version
Other missing tracks include the Album recording of "Jabba the Hutt's" suite. This was recorded after the film in a separate album recording session (where the "The Ewok Battle" and "Return of the Jedi" were recorded.
Interesting to note was that the final portion of the "Jabba the Hutt's" suite was Incorrectly edited onto the end of "Han Solo Returns," replacing the correct segment which is unreleased until the SE's. This is the only release of the original John Williams Album recording in existence. It is now proposed to be lost.
Besides the sound being quite dead, they use a copy of the master. Interesting to note is a strange blip of sound at 2:33 on track 2. This is also heard in the SE but NOT on the LP as the LP's were derived from the original masters which were not available for this release and were not found until after the SE was released.
Some of the greater parts of the Anthology were the extra tracks on Disc 4. They show a great deal of extra music never before released and to this day, the Anthology has been one of my favourite sets.
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And now to the SE's.
A New Hope: This set is perhaps one of the most well done of ANY of the Original Trilogy releases. Mike Matessino who edited this went back and studied the original LP and the film to make sure his edits were accurate. He then, through a few people, was able to find the lost documentation on what cues were used, how they were used, when they were edited, and what cues were recorded.
Through this discovery and the discovery of some of the masters not available to the Anthology producers, the "Binary Sunset (Alternate)" was discovered. This, plus the first recordings/takes of "Star Wars" were found. They were added to the set as extras and were not originally know about.
Unfortunately, as with all the releases, the set comes from several different masters and copies of the masters. Because of this, Matessino admits that they had to dumb down the sound slightly of the tracks from the better masters to ensure a playable experience and that the set on the whole, worked together and that certain tracks didn't sound better than others.
Also they discovered that the other takes of the Main Title had degraded so poorly that they were lost forever.
Binary Sunset was discovered on some extra reel left over from the editing process from when they actually had to edit the tape to put together the score.
This set is a definitive release of A New Hope. It uses the correct takes, is mixed properly, and with the advent of digital transfers, the masters were safely stored on a computer (digitally but eh, it's better than nothing for now) and this, unlike Analog, does allow for a larger degree of clarity in the recordings. When you listen, for the first time, you get the entire score as it was meant to be heard and better than it has ever sounded before.
Empire Strikes Back: A New Hope was a great start, but Empire falls apart quickly.
From track 2, fracking "Main Title" that which you hear at any Star Wars concert and is recorded for each film and so on, one of the biggest problems with this set begins to show. Unlike the Anthology predecessor, this error is not easily fixed.
The Horn channels are very obviously flipped.
When an orchestra is recorded, there are 3 main mics (left, right, center) and there are separate mics for different sections and specialty instruments such as harp.
The normal orchestral setting is:
Extreme Left: Harp Left: Horns (aka french horns), Violin 1, Violin 2, percussion, (and in the case of Imperial Walkers) Piano. Middle: Winds and Violin 2 to an extent. Precussion like timpani Right: Viola, Cello. Brass sections (trumbone, trumpet, tuba, baritone, etc), (and in the case of Imperial Walkers) Piano 2. choice of percussion like glocks. Extreme Right: String Bass, Harp,
In every track edited by Risner, one of two music editors for the SE release of Empire, the Horn's are flipped: putting the trumpets and brass on the left, and horns on the right.
Also, one of the bigger mistakes made by Risner is his improper mixing of the harp. In every track he mixed, he mixed the music so narrowly that the definition of right and left is almost non-existent. The Harp is meant to be on the extreme left or right (usually there are two harps one one each side). He places them in the MIDDLE. This is WRONG. You listen to the music in the film or ANY John Williams release or check out the common orchestral set up and you see that it is meant to be on the extreme left and/or right. NEVER the center unless it is a lead instrument which it was never used as such in Empire.
Celeste, meant to accompany the first violins plucking in "Training of a Jedi Knight" is again, mixed into the center rather than being in the far right complimenting the strings.
"Imperial Walkers" utilizes two pianos in it's opening measures very loudly. In the performance notes, Williams says that the more pianos, the better.
In the SE, the pianos are mixed so narrowly that it sounds like a single piano in the center! It says something about the accuracy of the performers that they could be down-mixed into a single piano and be flawless, but the problem is, THAT is NOT how it was meant to be at all!
Certain aspects of the score were also improperly mixed such as the little synth used in "The Wampa Lair" and the choir in "Cloud City." In both cases, the mixing is incorrect and the synth/choir are meant to be very lightly mixed, not mixed so loudly as to cause actual digital distortion as you hear in the SE in "The Wampa Lair."
Other problems:
Many of the more important cues are mixed very narrowly. Take "Imperial March" for example. It is meant to be a sonically bombastic power house piece, but it sounds wimpy and flat on the SE. The strings sound HORRIBLE and the brass is so narrowly mixed it may as well be mono. The bass and middle registers are removed and the brightness becomes harsh and crass.
Other tracks like Hyperspace are again mixed so narrowly that the handoff between the string sections becomes dangerously downplayed and mono, destroying the original vision of the score (not to mention the flipped horn tracks).
Lastly, the omission of many alternate versions. "The Rebel Fleet" heard on the Anthology and on the SE/LP are two DIFFERENT versions composed for different edits of the same sequence.
Also worthy of note are the two versions of "The End Credits," the one commonly heard on the other releases and the one heard here.
Return of the Jedi:
This release is almost not worth buying.
This was the first of the three sets finished and has the least amount of work done to it.
The plehtora of problems with this set make me wonder where to begin:
First off, the set sounds like shit. It sounds like your listening through a woolen blanket. The strings dissapear and sound dead.
For a "dolby digital" transfer, with THX verification, this score really sounds bad. We know that the masters used for the anthology are the same used here. The original masters could not be found in time for this set.
On top of that, many other masters went missing. The various version of Lapti Nek, the 2 Max Rebo Band songs, a completely unheard/unused/unreleased third source cue also composed by John Williams son, Joseph Williams is lost.
The original music composed for the Ewok Celebration is not presented here (On the Anthology two versions are released: neither are the film version).
The Alternate for "Leia's News" is left off of the set along with several alternates and the Ewok Insert heard only in the film.
Jabba the Hutt's concert suite is missing (as the masters could not be located).
The concert suites used on this set came from the masters from the Anthology release and so their sound is questionable.
Certain cues use incorrect takes such as the great cue "Superstructure Chase." The film take does not have the horn flub as heard in this take. Not to mention it sounds much better as this one sounds like utter glorified shit.
So where does this leave us? What can be done? What can a new release do?
Well for one:
A new release can release some of the alternate takes from A New Hope that have not been released including an alternate End Credits take that has leaked through video game sources.
Empire could be completely remixed (CORRECTLY) and it's alternates could be reinserted.
Return of the Jedi could be released in its complete fashion (however I heard that the masters for the Lapti Nek cues and Album recording sessions are still proving illusive). It could also be remixed to sound worth listening to.
All this together could take up about 8 discs. 2 for A New Hope with some extra tracks, 2 for Empire with some tracks left over, and 3 for Jedi. The left over tracks from ANH and Empire could go on their own CD.
That would be 8 discs... ----------------
Other Original Trilogy Music Odd's and Ends:
-The Star Wars Disco versions (which can still be found around) -The Star Wars concert versions (which are available in many places and recordings) -The Holiday Special Score (one track is in a 30th anniversary set of 'The Star Wars Archive') -The 2 Ewok movie scores (which have very poor incomplete bootlegs) -The Radio Show music (which has been released)
So what can be on the set? Hard to say. We know that masters for Return of the Jedi surfaced and that they could be used to create a much better release. Look at the DVD with Revenge of the Sith and the concert suites. They music is mixed in 5.1 and sounds quite good.
The other option would be to release DVD's of the complete scores like they did with the Lord of the Rings sets, but even then, they included CD's so it's hard to say unless the DVD's are simple transfers of the 2 disc SE's and if you want to listen to the CD, you buy the SE and you buy this for the Surround sound mix.
that uh... that's exactly what I said lol Although I thought it was already released...
As far as the Anthology and the SE's, both are poor releases in their own regards, but I'm not going to turn this into a talk about what's wrong with the various releases...
I do hope, however, that if this is a true re-release of the OT music, they've properly mixed it and fixed what they did wrong and found all the missing music.
If I may interject, there are things about the 2 disc sets for star wars that are...rather lacking.
Do not mis-understand me in this. They are a wonderful release where they did a lot... but there are also a lot of mistakes.
If they are re-releasing the 2 disc sets, then that's a pity... if they are re-releasing corrected versions, then i may consider buying them.
Return of the Jedi sounds like you're listening to it through a wool sheet. And it's also missing a ton of tracks.
Empire Strikes Back is missing quite a few alternates and is mixed incorrectly half the time because of Risner.
as for the as Prequels go, Episode I is my all time favourite score. Episode III is a great score but is used ineffectively at times in the film and really needs a much better release.
Episode II has a lot of... interesting creative choices but is still star wars and should still be released in its entirety.
Problem is that Episode I has about 4 discs of material by itself. Episode III has 3, and about 2 for Episode II. That's already 9 discs..
And if it is corrected SE's for the Original Trilogy, then that would mean it was at least 6, but probably 7 since most of the missing material (Max Rebo band music, Lapti Nek versions, Jabba the Hutt suite, Ewok insert, and the Empire Alternates) could fit on a single disc. That still begs "what's the last disc."
So it is ...difficult to guess what this could be.
Some are saying that the information on AMazon seems to be wrong and it's possible that they got that wrong as well...
Only time will tell... but if the sets that they're coming out have been any sign, this should be a GREAT set.
well, that's the thing... if it is just the 2 disc OT, then that's 6 discs... if they include the prequels... that's only 2 more discs so who do they leave out?
There's a lot of speculation going on about what the discs include... I think it's best to wait and see... I have my hopes up. Afterall, they did release a box set recently that had a cd with a song from the holiday special. If they're releasing music from THAT lol... they better be releasing music from the films lol
Not much is yet known about this release. It hasn't been "officially confirmed," but SONY/BMG lists it as a new release, and Amazon.com is taking preorders.
Song/BMG slates the release for october, but we're also hearing November as well. (Scroll down to 1.10.07) Sony/BMG site
There is also a Corellian collectors edition that will come out. It is said to be similiar to the Target Exclusive CD that has tracks from all 6 films.
Here is the official original cut/original audio as stated by film score monthly:
" In the final scene, there is no tracked music from "Yoda and the Force." The scene begins with the first establishing shot of the rebel fleet, then cuts inside the Falcon for Lando to say "Luke, we're ready for take-off" (but a differeny take of this is used). After Luke says (Voice Over), "Good Luck, Lando," scene cuts to inside the Rebel cruiser where Lando says, "When we find Jabba the Hutt and that bounty hunger, we'll contact you."
The comparison of the music however is this:
"Track 12, The Rebel Fleet/End Title: In 70mm versions of the film, the final scene began with this cue. Preparations of these prints began before the film was "locked," so the 35mm version contains several differences (see sidebar *the part just above this that I typed out*). The most prominent is the inclusion of extra dialogue and a few additional effects shots to the closing scene. The re-edited sequence required the tracking of a section of "Yoda and the Force" to precede "The Rebel Fleet." For both prints, a few bars of "The Rebel Fleet" were eliminated.
This track was called 'Finale' on the original album and the Gerhardt recording and "Finale/End Credits" on the anthology set."
Unfortunately, there was a lot of confusion with this score. Certain elements were missing and actually so was a lot of documentation.
in Star Wars, they didn't even know there was an alternate to Binary Sunset until they checked the recording schedule and saw one that was listed as "not used" when obviously something was used, they checked it and found the alternate.
Several alternates for Empire Strikes Back are left out of the set. The alternate end credits, the alternate Rebel Fleet, etc. My set includes all known alternates however.
With all that said, I could be wrong... It may be that the version on disc 3 is the "re-score" and that the one on disc 2 was the "original" BUT... because of the differences in sound quality and problems with mixing of "Rebel Fleet" on the SE, I still stand by my decision to put the tracks the way they are. The mixing of the track on disc 3 is wrong. The Celeste and the harp are mixed incorrectly and I am unable to fix that without the masters so lol...
BUT, if you want to switch them... it's not that difficult so do what you wish heh
If I had to give a guess... I'd say that the original is on Disc 2. That the rescore was to add some time to it and that's on disc 3 but notice they say that in both cases, some of the music is omitted. To me, that's odd. John Williams doesn't just leasurely compose music. The music is composed strictly to the film so if there was unused music in the "original cut," that means that the cut he composed to was probably one before the 70mm one and may have been the originator of the extra dialogue. That dialogue must have been removed and then that was what you see in the 70 mm cut.
John must have then been brought in to rescore the scene after that (which is simply skipping a few measures nothing serious at all and today would have been done simply through editing but in those days it was easier to record how you wanted it than it was to edit it. (also because the omited part has a harp glissando in it leading back into the used part.)
Then, they decided to reincorporate that dialogue but also add some effects shots to the beginning because George thought it wasn't long enough (this was documented in that Building an Empire edit I believe) or on the normal DVD's audio commentary (I actually think it was the audio commentary).
Anyways, they extended the scene, reincorporated the edited out material but I guess in a different way, which caused the music to not fit as it had been written so they edited the track, using bits of both versions. The effects shots were finished far late in the game (I think they said they were the last ones done and were rushed to get done and of course, Williams couldn't be brought in to re-re-score lol... so they tracked in music, edited the tracks they had to fit the new-new edit...
That's what I believe at least based on what I know and have read.
Originally posted by: ADigitalMan New Question: What's the difference between track 16 on ESB2 and track 17 on ESB3. Were they just different takes? Also, which one was actually used in the film?
well, I'm really not sure how to answer your question since disc 3 only has 16 tracks... lol check your track numbers and get back to me. If you mean track 17 on Disc 2 and Track 16 on Disc 3, the difference is this:
In the original 70mm cut of the film, the ending sequence was different in two ways: There were less effects shots but there was more dialog. Because of this, Williams wrote what you heard on Disc 3 which has an extended section near the end before the final grand statement of Han and Leia's theme and then into the end credits.
The only released version before the SE's was what you hear on track 17 on Disc 2. This is a re-score for the shortened, but yet lengthened sequence seen today.
There were effects shots added to the beginning of the sequence, but some of the dialog was cut and so Williams re-scored the scene with this take which doesn't have that section near the end before the final Han and Leia theme statement.
In the film, tracked music was brought in for when the Lando is prepping the falcon to leave for Tatooine. Then we hear whats a mix of the two versions.
The end credits however has two versions which are really the same but simply edited differently.
The one on Disc 2 is NOT the film version but is the easier to listen to of the two and has less jarring edits.
The one on Disc 3 IS heard in the film. Notice the strings disappear on the first note of the Imperial March segment in that one, but in the Disc 2 version, they play. That plus about 3-4 other edits differentiate the two versions. They're just different edits. Both have been released.
well, the idea was to try to extend the birth. By having Yoda going to meditate when they say she's going to die... I thought maybe it would help give the illusion of time passing. The problem then is that Obi-wan leaving Mustafar and arriving at polis mossa have to be right next to eachother.
The visions I want to trim further and some parts are a bit blurry...as for yoda, I think I could probably replace the close up on him, and leave the other shots (the one behind him and the one of him from a slight distance).
as for using Obi-Wan's line... I know of no way because it's burried in the SFX quite well in the vision that Anakin has... it would be all distorted and stuff...
I may flip part of it around to be how it is in the film... but I thought I'd post this... it's definately quite rough... but shows some of the ideas and thoughts I'd had...
I do have to say though that as far as having visions of things they cannot have seen... I don't think that's an issue at all... Obi-Wan could never have seen a thousand people crying out in despair and then suddenly go silent... and yet that's what he says he felt/saw/heard in Episode IV... so I think that it isn't an issue.
as for the filters... I used gausan blur and light rays...
I wish there were a way to make it more dynamic...
hey all, just wanted to say I made a new edit of the finale to Episode III. I'd like to get some input. I'm pretty happy with this. I wish I could extend a few moments and fix a few things but I'm curious to see what you all think.
Could you at least check? the lengths you posted are definately different than what we're getting lol... not sure why however... If it's just a typo thats fine heh... it just has left us quite confused lol...
that really doesn't effect enough of it to warent any real fix. it's less than a second and only effects the timpani roll.
It is present in the SE and the Anthology. You can barely tell, but if you compare the two, it was a recording error. You get that same sound in the timpani in both. Mine just makes it more obvious because I've raised the volume and made the recording clearer and brighter.
You have to remember that these are mixed live as it's being recorded. That timpani roll must have caused a small problem when recording it...
