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Go-Mer-Tonic

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13-Sep-2006
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28-Mar-2007
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Post
#251962
Topic
For me...it all came out in the end...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/251962/action/topic#251962
Time
These movies from the beginning have been about putting forth good virtues. Promoting learning and knowledge over ignorance and destruction.

Yet some of you guys are about limiting the SW story to only the parts you "need". Discarding anything Lucas has added to the story since ROTJ, even going so far as to destroy DVD's with the 2004 SE's on them as an act of supressing it.

I feel like I'm watching a book burning in Salem while I'm tied to a dunking torture device.
Post
#251956
Topic
For me...it all came out in the end...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/251956/action/topic#251956
Time
I just don't get Star Wars fans who revel in hatred. On the one hand many of you claim to know what makes Star Wars so great better than Lucas, yet a lot of you fail at the basic task of anger management. Hear you guys nothing yoda says?

I thought the droids in ANH were fairly cheesey, Luke's whineyness "Toshi/converters" was cheesey. In fact just about everything about Luke in ANH was cheesey to me.

"I'm Luke Skywalker, I'm here to rescue you".

Don't get me wrong, I love cheese, and agree that the Yoda Vs DooKu was pretty cheesey. Not as cheesey as it would have been with a puppet, but still pretty cheesey.

I just don't mind the cheese is all. It's part of what makes Star Wars so much fun for me.
Post
#251954
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the "Saga"
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/251954/action/topic#251954
Time
Originally posted by: Wesyeed
I'm putting my foot down. The merits are that it had some cool fx. Oh don't even get me started on how well animated that fart scene was in TPM. Woo boy, that was amazig. You should see the version they used on the extended pre race scene on the 2nd DVD. There's even a wind up before the Eopie farts (yeah that's spelled correctly).
Originally posted by: Wesyeed
but no they sucked sucked sucked. An entire main character was even so bad he had to be written out almost completely by the time it was over. That's how it is. No amount of focus will change that pure fact. If you are reffering to Jar-Jar, I thought he was awesome, and Lucas says he was always meant to fade to the background as the story got darker and centered in on the main characters.
Originally posted by: Wesyeed
To fans, movies are everything, aren't they... my advice...Just watch the pt for the pretty explosions and lightsabers if that's all star wars is to you. At least that's just what I think it's good for besides the JW music. The story is shite. I think it's one of the best stories ever told in cinema, and the whole saga taken as a whole is an unmatched accomplishment in film.
Originally posted by: Wesyeed
And... I believe that it's horrible that so many just don't care about the standard the ot set back in the day. That was something phenominal as we know... Yet I see some gladly just sit by and watch lucas piss all over them with his half assed stories he had... what.. lets see... 16 fucking YEARS to figure out, (sorry for cursing but come on, it was nearly two decades he had to come up with something really great, and we got jar jar binks, Annie, Midichlorians, NOOOOOOOO, and goodbye chewbacca.) but STILL couldn't craft the films as a cohesive whole that it damn well should have been. That stuff is cool, and it all came together as a cohesive whole to me.
Originally posted by: Wesyeed
People discuss the Pt as if it should be looked upon as if someone without a billion dollars and decades of experience in the film industry was behind them; that all the ameteuristic mistakes and terrible writing and directing were just common faults of a novice director and should be overlooked because your focus determines your reality.
No I think the PT is befitting a director who put as much money into it as Lucas did. I only expected them to be on par with the classic trilogy (which wasn't perfect either). I think it's unrealistic to expect perfection.Originally posted by: Wesyeed
No, the reality is that Lucas half assed it, delivered poorly done films full of his cgi experiments, ruined continuity with the originals, just funked up and got away with it for the most part...
Wow that's so weird, because he also "half assed" the classic trilogy, delivered films that by his account were not finished, and not up to his standard of quality, that were full of motion control SFX experiments, ruined the continuity within the classic trilogy, (Vader murdered your father/That was just pillow talk, "I'm the monkey woman emperor/No I'm the Ian McDiarmid Emperor"), just fucked up and got away with it for the most part...Originally posted by: Wesyeed
How horrible... just horrible to watch something you love be treated so recklessly and yet... unbelievably some who claim to love the OT praise it... eh so be it...

There were people like you wondering what we all saw in the classic trilogy in the first place. Some people blamed Lucas for the "dumbing down" of cinema. This was over the classic trilogy mind you.Originally posted by: Wesyeed
I seriously stopped carring a long time ago about all the online star wars discussions at tfn and such. There comes a point when it ceases being about the films and one's perception of them, but more a shouting match or 'who can write the most words' contest. I don't absolve myself from that sort of thing from time to time but it's typical isn't it nowadays...
I hope you don't see my words as shouting. I try to remain reasonably calm as I discuss the movies.Originally posted by: Wesyeed
Anyway, yeah mate, just movies of course. But something inside me says to a fan they're not just movies, they're HISTORY in the making. And considering how rich and powerful lucas was/is, doing three great movies or at least two great ones, one mediocre or average one, would have been just viewed as me as what's to be expected from a man in his position. How the hell did he make star wars when he was this nobody director, then when he's really got the power and control he's wanted, he delivers below his established standards and even goes back and shits on his earlier work while he's at it. It boggles the balls. Whatever, george.
He didn't shit over anything. It all turned out rather well. Better than most movies these days.

But as with any movie, not everyone will appreciate them.
Post
#251882
Topic
The Merits of the Prequel Trilogy and the "Saga"
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/251882/action/topic#251882
Time
Originally posted by: Tiptup
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Could you be more specific as to what you find to contradict what I am seeing? To me Anakin's desire to save Padme from possible death is a good thing. It's personal for Anakin because he has a personal interest in keeping her around because he loves her. The path he goes down in pursuit of that goal pushes the whole galaxy into the dark times of the Empire. In that way, Anakin put himself above the rest of the galaxy and it ended up being bad for everyone. No, what you are seeing there is totally accurate. The problem is when you try to say that personal values are somehow evil or less important than universal values. That is a simplistic and wrong concept even if you only analyze the motivations from the prequel movies. There were many, many times where prequel-trilogy characters acted from personal motivations to intentionally accomplish things that are good for everyone. They personally desired things that were compatible with and helped work for the greater good. Well I don't think personal values are evil or less important than universal values, it's a balancing act between the two.
Seriously, how can you even value the “greater good” if you don’t value the greater in a “personal” sense? Also, did not Anakin of the prequels believe that his personal desires for power were for the greater good in some way?

In ethics, there is no clear distinction between personal values and universal values. The greatest goal in this regard is to seek a state where our personal desires are compatible with the greater good. Even the prequel trilogy teaches this in a straightforward sense, over and over again. The characters have personal desires that are good because they are on the side of the greater good. To have the movies preach an ethic that contradicts the ethic that is taught through its portrayed deeds and motivations seems a little pathetic to me. There’s no way you can say that the Jedi in the prequels throw away their personal desires or sentimental attachment. They just don’t. I can pick out numerous examples where they acted in personal ways. I'm not sure I follow. The whole saga seems to show both sides of the same coins. In the prequels, we see things from the perspective of a "good" establishment that is fighting an "evil" rebellion, and in the classic trilogy we see things from the perspective of a "good" rebellion that is fighting an "evil" establishment.

I don't think Lucas is preaching as much as he's showing both sides to everything and letting the viewer come to their own conclusions about what is "right and wrong".
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic

Only a Sith lord deals in absolutes! (I love that line )


That line is actually dumb to me since Obi-Wan uses the word “only.” He can’t attack the use of absolutes by using an absolute. Plus, the Jedi talk in terms of absolutes all the time if you follow the prequel trilogy alone. It’s a totally hypocritical line of dialogue. I don’t know what George was thinking . . . he probably wasn’t.
To me that's more interesting than if it wasn't questionable. The whole saga is about the concept of good and evil. The message is a lot of that comes down to point of view.Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Anyway, I don't see Anakin as a complete psychopath. When it comes to the Tusken Raider slaughter, Anakin knows what he did was wrong after he did it, so you could argue temporary insanity brought on by the trauma of having his mother die in his arms because of them. As far as slaughtering the younglings and betraying the Jedi order, he did rationalize that even if only to himself:
"I will not betray the Republic."

"My loyalties are with the Chancellor, and the senate, and with you."

"From my point of view the Jedi are evil".

Anakin had it all worked out in his head that what he was doing was for the greater good of the galaxy, but it was all really motivated by his selfish desire to save Padme from a potential death. His rationalization was just how he coped with that decision.
I see how that works. But that’s really stupid. Anakin would have needed to be completely retarded to ever believe that rationalization justified his actions. Its far too weak otherwise. I never saw Anakin’s intellect debilitated in that way though, so again, I believe we can only conclude he was a psychopath. Either that or George Lucas just messed up.
We have a situation where Anakin has been told since 9 that he is "the chosen one". That the Force created him for the purpose of "bringing balance" to the force. He has the Jedi in one ear talking about what they see as what's good. He has the Emperor in the other ear talking about what he thinks is "right". He knows that all the chaos and war are the direct result of these two Force based religions, and as you pointed out, the Jedi aren't exactly saints in the whole matter either.

He knows Sidious is evil. He sees all the ways the Jedi have been acting selfishly, against the Jedi Code itself. To me it isn't such a huge leap to see why he would see fit to judge them all. After all, he was bringing balance back to the Force. If he was the chosen one, then why shouldn't he be the one to make them agree?
Post
#251877
Topic
For me...it all came out in the end...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/251877/action/topic#251877
Time
I certainly like my Star Wars with extra cheese.

I'm trying to imagine the original ESB emperor carried through to the end. He almost comes off like some kind of cold-blooded executive in ESB. That could have been a lot different if he hadn't gone all cackley in ROTJ.

I certainly did like Ian's over the top performance. It was like something out of a good Disney film.
Post
#251827
Topic
redeeming lucas
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/251827/action/topic#251827
Time
I did try and bite my tongue, but then I get accused of ignoring certain points.

I appreciate where you guys are coming from. I know a lot of you guys think I'm just trolling. But I am being genuine in my comments and the real reason I am here is because I care about my fellow Star Wars fans. It really makes me feel bad to know there are so many Star Wars fans who end up spending more time lamenting their fandom, than celebrating it.

Obvioulsy, thinking the prequels are just as good as the classic trilogy, I see this as an avoidable tragedy.
Post
#251811
Topic
For me...it all came out in the end...
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/251811/action/topic#251811
Time
Aura, I did read what you said, I just disagree that it's bullocks. I think there is a grandfather clause for the movies we fell in love with before our critical faculties were fully armed and operational.
Originally posted by: Cable-X1
I stillcan't see the flaws in it Yeah....no shit. I wanna hear about these "flaws", Gomer.......and just leave ROTJ out of it. We all know that one is a little off center. Give me the "flaws" in SW and ESB.....I'll bet whatever you bring up is all Mickey Mouse bullshit. That would of course match the Mickey Mouse BS you would bring up about the prequels.

ANH: "Not this ship sister." A clear use of contemporary 70's slang in a movie that was crafted to be timeless. This is no better than Jar-Jar saying "Exqueeze me".

ANH: "But I was going into Toshi Station to pick up some Power converters!" A tad on the hammy side. This delivery is no better than Anakins: "It's all Obi-Wan's fault, he's holding me back!"

Empire: Emperor: "Look at me, I'm a monkey woman!" This is a clear breach of continuity by the time ROTJ rolls around. The only thing that even comes close in the prequels is Yoda in TPM, which still looks more like Yoda than the Monkey Woman looked like the Emperor.

I don't have time to come up with a full sized list, but believe me I could go on like this for a while.
Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
The acting, despite what you say, is of a much poorer standard in the PT than in the OOT.

Hayden Christensen is not a good actor. I'm sorry, but he just isn't. He consummately fails to portray any depth whatsoever in his performance. It's all unsupported mugging, pretending to be feeling emotions that he has no thought of the reasons for. And his performance in the Darth Vader suit is ridiculous. There is no better word to describe his failure. I don't see his performance as being any worse than Mark Hammils. I wouldnt' call either ridiculous. I thought they both did a decent enough job.
And Jake Lloyd comes across as what he is. A stage school brat. He seemed like a regular kid to me. Mission accomplished.
Natalie Portman manages to come up with one of the worst performances she's ever given, lacking any hint of thought behind her vacant girl-who's-in-a-boy's-film pouting.
I thought it was of a much higher calibur than Carrie "Guess what I'm sniffing this week" Fisher. What some of you see as a soulless performance, I see as an admiral portrayal of restraint. To me the acting lies in her eyes, while the rest of her exterior exuded an inflappableness that would befit a Queen. I thought it was very well rendered.Ian McDiarmid is at his hammiest, lacking any of the creepiness or hint of the horrible threat that distinguished his performance in ROTJ.
I don't see any difference. To me the Emperor was also a pretty hammy performance. Evil Cackling? Check, turning words around on the heros to appear smart: Check.

It is you who are mistaken! Am not, are so, am not! Samuel L Jackson actually manages to be boring. He never seems at all connected to what's going on around him.
He's a Jedi and like all Jedi he tries not to let his emotions control his actions. Seems like he did a bang up job of it, even by your account.Ewan McGregor does his best, but is clearly struggling to maintain his focus at times.
I thought he did a very good job of living up to what Alec had already put forth. Certainly that has to be aknowledged.Liam Neeson and Christopher Lee trot out their standard routines.
Well that's certainly why one would hire Neeson or Lee now isn't it? I loved both of their performances, and aside from a few eyeline issues with CG characters on Liam's part, I thought they both fit the bill well.