G&G-Fan

Darth Malgus said:

Must we learn to let go? Yes, of course. But letting go doesn’t mean not caring about the people we love.

George doesn’t say that. He says the contrary. That the Jedi can love people and care about people.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with this, and we shouldn’t suppress the fear of loss. I think it’s right, not only to be concerned about the people we love, but also to try to protect them and prevent bad things to happen to them.

It’s not about repressing your fear of loss. It’s about confronting that fear and letting it go. They’re different things. It’s about saying “Yes, I may not be in complete control, but I will do everything I can and if not, then I must let go and honor their memory by staying good”.

Also, you can’t expect a person to let go immediately. If a person we love dies in front of us, then it’s normal to be sad for a while, you can’t expect a person to see someone die in front of their eyes and a few seconds later act like nothing happened.

That’s not what happens. Obi-Wan takes plenty of time to mourn Qui-Gon. Both right after he dies and at his funeral. It’s literally never said that the Jedi have a strict time limit for how long you can mourn.

https://david-talks-sw.tumblr.com/post/693487689321906176/what-does-yoda-mean-when-he-says-rejoice-for

Furthermore, I think that being totally selfless, like the Jedi claim to be, is impossible. Love always requires a certain degree of possessiveness. If I love someone, I want to be with that person not only because I like him/her as a person, but also because the presence of that person makes me happy and makes me feel good. If the presence of that person didn’t make me feel good, then there would be no reason for me to engage in a romantic relationship with that person in the first place. In love, you have to give and receive. You give your love in the hope that your love will be reciprocated and that the exchange of that love will make you happy.

As I’ve said, Jedi can’t be in romantic relationships because of commitment. The Jedi are allowed to feel whatever they want, they can even have sexual experiences (Lucas says Jedi aren’t celibate), but they can’t sacrifice the greater good, the mission, to save a loved one.

Obi-Wan and Satine is an example of how a Jedi deals with romantic love right. Anakin and Padme is an example of how it’s done wrong.

Also, I don’t think that the Jedi can give lessons about what absolute love and compassion mean, since they were the first not to practice this phantom “universal love”. If they really did have unconditional love for the entire Galaxy, then they would have paid more attention to civilians and ordinary people instead of lock themselves in their own Temple and put themselves at the service of corrupt politicians, and maybe they would have cared more about the millions of people who lived in slavery and disease on Tatooine and other criminal-controlled planets. “I’m not here to free slaves”, Qui-Gon said. A great example of unconditional love for every sentient being, I must say! It’s too easy to practice “absolute love and compassion” exclusively with the people we know. And yet, this is what the Jedi do, because I don’t remember having ever seen them going out in the middle of the streets to help starving people. I mean, they didn’t even had to left Coruscant to do it, because you know, the low levels of Coruscant are already full of poor people who need help. So the Jedi should stop thinking of themselves as the custodians of absolute truth, because they’re the first to not practice what they preach.

The Jedi literally day by day participate in diplomatic missions to resolve conflicts, thus saving people in the process. Literally the opening scene of The Phantom Menace is the Jedi going to negotiate with the Trade Federation to save the people of Naboo. That’s the reason that sequence exists, to show the Jedi’s day job. The reason they don’t help the common people during the war is because they’re too busy with the war, because Palpatine drafted them into service.

But hey, look, here’s a canon example of a Jedi, Mace Windu, saving and protecting ordinary people.

Slavery only happens in the Outer Rim. The Jedi don’t have any jurisdiction there. The Senate has authority over the Jedi. The Jedi don’t have the resources to do an all out war on the Outer rim. They’d need backing by the Senate. An army. There’s only 10,000 Jedi and a shit ton of systems with slavery with millions of people. The Hutts aren’t something to laugh at. They’re literally one of the biggest powers in the galaxy. Even the Galactic Empire didn’t want war with them. They wouldn’t stand a chance because a Jedi’s biggest weakness is numbers, which is why battle droids are their perfect enemies that aren’t other force users. In the areas where they do have jurisdiction? They do free slaves. They wiped out the Zygerrian empire when they dared to do the slave trade in Republic territory. It’s not that the Jedi don’t give a shit, it’s they that don’t have the resources necessary because the Senate is greedy and selfish.

The Jedi can’t just leave the Republic. They have a responsibility to be diplomats. To save people through peaceful negotiation on a daily basis. Leaving would be devastating to the Republic. And like, it’s not like they’d be able to free all of the slaves on Tatooine without backing from the Senate, anyway. What the Jedi really should’ve done is gotten political allies in the Senate so they could change the system and make things better. When your government is shit, you don’t just ditch it, you make it better.

Qui-Gon saying “I’m not here to free slaves” is just him bluntly stating facts. That’s not why he’s there. They’re on an urgent mission, to save the Naboo. They can’t deal with slaves on Tatooine right now. They need to get to Coruscant as soon as possible. This is just another example of Lucas being a flat dialogue writer, not Qui-Gon being a dickhead. When you have a guy writing your script that writes flat dialogue, the characters are gonna say things in a very flat way that might come across as callous.

Besides, you literally have Qui-Gon try to free Shmi (when he tries to bet Watto the racing pod for both Anakin and Shmi) and Qui-Gon ask Shmi if she’s alright when Anakin has to leave. He also waits patiently as Anakin says goodbye. He’s not meant to be seen as a callous dickhead.

Nonetheless, this isn’t “George Lucas believes the Jedi shouldn’t help the common people”, it’s “The prequels are complex as shit and have a million things going on in them and because of that they don’t have time to address this stuff”.

In addition, talking about Obi-Wan as the perfect example of a person who lets go immediately is, in my opinion, wrong. Yes, Obi-Wan managed to let go immediately when Siri Tachi died, but he couldn’t let go immediately when Qui-Gon was killed. When Maul killed Qui-Gon, all Obi-Wan did was attack him aggressively and violently. I mean, this is no mystery to anyone, just review the scene of the fight between Maul and Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan was so upset and angry that he let his emotions take over, and as soon as the shield opened he immediately threw himself at Maul, attacking him. Of course, after killing him, Obi-Wan calmed down and ran to Qui-Gon to hear his last words. But in the meantime he fought Maul and killed him, driven by anger and aggressive feelings. So, I think Obi-Wan is quite hypocritical in criticizing Anakin, because he did pretty much the same, although on a smaller scale.

Obi-Wan getting angry and attacking ferociously is a character flaw in TPM. He has clear growth in all three films. Notice how he never gives into his anger in the other two movies. In fact literally his arc in AOTC is learning to go easy on Anakin, because he suffers from some of the same arrogance that Anakin does.

The Jedi have great respect for Dooku and think he could never kill anyone. That’s true. But let’s examine carefully what both Mace Windu and Ki Adi Mundi say. Ki Adi Mundi says: “He’s a politically idealist, not a murderer”. After that, Mace says: “You must know, My Lady, that Dooku was once a Jedi. He could never kill anyone, it’s not in his character”. Well, to be honest, the only thing I see in this dialogue is simply the Jedi being arrogant. Yes, they don’t think that Dooku could ever kill anyone, they don’t believe that he’s a murderer. But why do they think that? But it’s clear, because he was once a Jedi, and for God’s sake, everyone knows the Jedi are perfect, so even if one of them leaves the Order, he could never become a murderer. It’s not that the Jedi are saying those things about Dooku because they sincerely respect him and have affection for him, but simply because they have so much faith in their own teachings that they think that even if someone leaves the Order, he could never become a murderer or hurt others.

You’re just using the least charitable interpretation possible which is obviously not what Lucas intended.

If you were a cop and you had a partner who you worked with for years, he quit, and then someone years later claimed he committed a crime, you would probably use the fact that he was a cop to help make the case that it’s unlikely. Not to mention that being a Jedi is a way of life. They’re taught these things from birth. For one of their own to do something so overtly evil is unthinkable.

In addition, the statue that the Jedi have dedicated to Dooku inside the Temple is not a commemorative or appreciative statue. In the Temple library there are 20 statues, depicting the so-called Lost 20, that is, 20 Jedi masters who at some point decided to leave the Order. Dooku is part of the group of the Lost 20, and the Jedi have placed his statue in the Temple library, not to commemorate him, but simply as a warning. Further information ere: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lost_Twenty/Legends

That’s from Legends, not Canon. Legends was not made by George Lucas.

In said deleted scene Jocastu Nu goes on about how Dooku was so great and that it was a privilege knowing him. She compliments his statue, saying he has a powerful face. Obviously the statue is not meant to be a warning. If you read the Dooku: Jedi Lost novel (which is canon), Yoda doesn’t have any problem with Dooku leaving. He even lets him keep his lightsaber and wishes him luck. In the Obi-Wan and Anakin canon comic (takes place a couple years after TPM), Obi-Wan doesn’t have a problem with Anakin wanting to leave the order and was also willing to leave with him. Yoda doesn’t have a problem with it either, when Obi-Wan tells him about it.

“His path before coming to us… difficult. His questions natural.”
“If, after you return, Anakin still wishes to leave us, then released, he shall be. Jailers, the Jedi are not.”
Wow, what an asshole!

Again, you’re not only confusing attachment according to Lucas (a selfish obsession with holding on no matter what) with emotional connections. George Lucas writing dialogue in a flat way doesn’t mean the Jedi are actually supposed to be flat and emotionless. He’s just not a good dialogue writer. And just because George Lucas doesn’t address a bunch of stuff in his scripts doesn’t mean his intentions of what the Jedi are is invalid. Everything you’re saying that makes the Jedi morally wrong, like them not saving slaves? That’s not something that’s delved into in the prequels, you just filled in the blanks. Now, you’re supposed to do that, when watching a movie, but Lucas doesn’t delve into it enough and that leaves people coming to a conclusion that he didn’t intend, and that’s his fault. As I said in the other thread, Lucas strictly made the prequels to focus on the themes/story of letting go and how a democracy becomes a dictatorship. He constantly sticks to that bottom line. It’s why Shmi isn’t addressed except for when it comes to Anakin. The Jedi don’t free Shmi? That’s not because they’re morally wrong, it’s because Lucas doesn’t bother to address it. Because the Jedi are not the focus. You’re just supposed to take the fact that they’re good guys for granted. Shmi is there as a plot device in Anakin’s story arc. That’s it.

The only reason people have come to this uncharitable view of the Jedi Order is because George Lucas is not a good writer. Simple as that.

Peter Pan said:

Maybe this could be connected with Anakin constantly losing his lightsaber. In the movie he rarely reacts to this, but if he did show some signs of anxiety due to being defenseless, it could work well with this narrative. After all Obi-Wan reminds him that this weapon is his life.
If we could somehow draw the focus to Anakin’s shock about losing his arm and lightsaber to Dooku, then we would have a good set up to include this plot point about Anakin’s own mortality in III.
Firstly this could be deliberately be brought up by Palpatine after Anakin killed Dooku. Then Obi-Wan could remind Anakin to jump from the elevator shaft a second time and we could change Grievous offense against Anakin’s age to a threat to kill them, to which Anakin response with an insult.
Finally we could change some of the dialogue during the opera scene, so that it focuses on the power to avert death rather than to save others. On top of that we could add “forever” to Anakin’s line about ruling the galaxy.

In conclusion I think that it definitely is possible to add this theme to Anakin’s fall. Not as the central motivation to turn his back on the Jedi, but rather as a contributing factor like his frustration with the council.

Excellent ideas.

Darth Malgus said:

On the contrary, “Protect the ones you love, do everything you can to make them feel good, but if in the end you don’t succeed, then, only then, you have to learn to let go”, this is a deep, human and healthy teaching.

It’s funny because this is literally what Lucas thinks:

“They can still love people. But they can’t possess them. They can’t own them. They can’t demand that they do things. They have to be able to accept the fact, one, their mortality, that they are going to die. And not worry about it. That the loved ones they have, everything they love is going to die and they can’t do anything about it. I mean they can protect them as you would ordinary protect, you know, ‘Get out of the way of that car.’ Somebody charges you with a gun, you knock the gun out, but there is an inevitability to life which is death and you have to accept that.”

“[Jedi Knights] do not grow attachments, because attachment is a path to the dark side. You can love people, but you can’t want to possess them. They’re not yours. Accept that they have a fate. Even those you love most are going to die. You can’t do anything about that. Protect them with your lightsaber, but if they die they were going to die. there’s nothing you can do. All you can do is accept that fact.
In mythology, if you go to Hades to get them back you’re not doing it for them, you’re doing it for yourself. You’re doing it because you don’t want to give them up. You’re afraid to be without them. The key to the dark side is fear. You must be clean of fear, and fear of loss is the greatest fear. If you’re set up for fear of loss, you will do anything to keep that loss from happening, and you’re going to end up in the dark side. That’s the basic premise of Star Wars and the Jedi, and how it works.
That’s why they’re taken at a young age to be trained. They cannot get themselves killed trying to save their best buddy when it’s a hopeless exercise.”

I talked about this in another thread so I’m gonna dump it here.

George Lucas inserted his own values and philosophy into the Jedi. He agrees with the Jedi all the time. Read any one of his quotes and he frames the Jedi as the ones in the right. Especially Yoda.

Here’s the deal about Jedi philosophy: attachment in Star Wars does not mean the dictionary definition of attachment. It’s the Buddhist definition: the inability to let go of things. Lucas has said the Jedi are allowed to feel emotions. They’re allowed to feel love. They’re allowed to care about other people and have emotional bonds. This is shown. Yoda admits he’s afraid for Anakin’s training (proving that Anakin being afraid wasn’t the problem, it’s that he wouldn’t admit it and repressing it that was the problem; hence, “Be mindful of your feelings.”). Yoda tells Padme he has warm feelings in his heart after she survives the assassination attempt. Obi-Wan is friends with Dexter Jester. Mace Windu vouches for both Dooku and Anakin in AOTC (Mace and Yoda cut Anakin more slack then Obi-Wan, in AOTC). Yoda cries when he feels Anakin’s in pain. The bond between a Jedi master and padawan is strong. Obi-Wan loves both Qui-Gon and Anakin. In The Clone Wars series, the Jedi council cares about Yoda when they think something’s wrong with him when he claims to hear Qui-Gon’s voice. Yoda calls Anakin his friend. Yoda, Plo-Koon, and Mace Windu are shown to be caring towards the clones. Tiplee openly shows sadness at Tiplar’s death. She loved her like a sister. The Jedi is supposed to be like one big family.

Should these things have been better clarified and emphasized in the scripts, and the Jedi made to seem more kind and empathetic? Absolutely. You shouldn’t have to read Lucas quotes (or watch a 7 season TV show) to understand the movies. But George Lucas being a bad writer doesn’t change the fact that the Jedi aren’t intended to be emotionless assholes.

The “no attachments” doctrine is about not letting your feelings interfere with a mission and being willing to let things go when need be. There’s a difference between selflessly loving someone and being in a possessive, toxic relationship. Obi-Wan loves Satine, in The Clone Wars, he even says, “It’s not that we’re not allowed to have these feelings, it’s natural”, but he doesn’t let it interfere with a mission like Anakin does. And when Satine dies, Obi-Wan lets her go. He doesn’t succumb to the dark side. He doesn’t close out his emotions. He feels his emotions but then moves on. When Bo-Katan tries to emotionally blackmail him, he doesn’t fall for it, because he can’t let his emotions cloud his judgement. The same thing happens after Qui-Gon’s death. He openly cries, but then moves on and honors his memory by training Anakin.

He doesn’t enter a relationship with Satine because he has a commitment to the Jedi Order. If a Jedi wants to be in a relationship, they need to leave. “A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind.” And there’s no shame in leaving the Order. Dooku left and the Jedi still spoke fondly of him, let him keep his lightsaber (Dooku: Jedi Lost novel), and even built him a statue (in a deleted scene). It’s not a cult. Anakin should’ve either left the Jedi Order after AOTC or waited to marry Padme after the clone war.

The reason a Jedi can’t be in a committed romantic relationship is because they, on a daily basis, go on diplomatic missions in which billions of lives hang in the balance. The slightest imbalance in a Jedi knight caused by relationship problems could be a disaster. This is what the last act of AOTC is meant to show: because Anakin rushed in to fight Dooku because he’s angry about the dead Jedi and Padme, he ruined him and Obi-Wan’s chances at beating Dooku. Imagine if Obi-Wan and Anakin managed to keep Dooku at a standstill by working together, and then Yoda showed up. Dooku has no chance. The war is over. Literally in the scene on Dagobah in the original trilogy, Yoda is lecturing Luke on how the Jedi path is not just something you just do when you feel like it. It’s a lifestyle. It’s not like working at Subway, you literally dedicate your life to it.

Anakin knows the difference between attachment and love. As he says in AOTC and an episode in The Clone Wars when he lectures Ahsoka on the importance of letting go of attachments (in the Geonosis zombie worms episode). It’s not that he doesn’t understand the teachings or objects to them, it’s that he doesn’t have the emotional strength to apply them to himself.

The problem is that Anakin was willing to do anything to keep Padme from dying. He literally kills kids. He becomes possessive of Padme. He thinks of her as an object. He’s not turning to the dark side to save her, he’s doing it because he doesn’t want to live without her. He doesn’t want to feel the pain of losing her. He doesn’t care that he’s destroying everything she fought and cared about her whole life (he was betraying her too by joining Palpatine). He was shown that Padme could die (“Always in motion is the future”) and that there’s nothing he could do about it (for the sake of the plot we’re gonna assume there’s no such things as C-sections in Star Wars; which I mean, this is coming from the same guy who said “There is no underwear in space”, so it really ain’t all that hard to believe), but he refused to accept it. According to George Lucas, Plagueis could not actually cheat death. That was a lie. There was nothing Anakin could do except trust in Padme’s strength to make it through childbirth. If he had listened to Yoda and accepted that, then things would’ve been alright. It’s possible she would’ve survived, and if not, Anakin would’ve needed rejoice for the good memories he shared, honor her memory, and let go. That’s what the Jedi way is about. It’s really just about living a healthy life. It’s about not craving control over things you have no control over. Because that’s how you get greedy.

George Lucas obviously doesn’t think you should repress your emotions, never be emotionally attached to anybody or never get married. He’s a very emotionally open guy, he’s been married twice and has kids. He just used a different meaning of the word attachment, and people were (rightfully) confused.

A quote from George Lucas:
“A Jedi is never lonely. They live on compassion. They live on helping people, and people love them. They can love people back. But when that person dies, they let go. Those that cannot let go become miserable. That’s the lonely place.”

The fact is, and the entire crux of this whole thing is, George Lucas is not a great writer. He didn’t do a good job conveying that the Jedi can love people and the difference between attachment and love. Because he’s an excellent visual artist, but not a good writer. His specialty is experimental avant-garde cinema, which is why there’s so much visual storytelling in the original 6. But his dialogue is flat and utilitarian. Which is why the Jedi appear flat and utilitarian. Lucas doesn’t really care about nitty gritty continuity or writing great dialogue. He literally calls lightsabers “laser swords” half the time. The reason? Because he’s not really about all that, he really just cares about the themes, the mythological motifs, the story he’s trying to tell. The story he’s trying to tell is, “The dangers of not being willing to let things go.” (the other is democracies and dictatorships, but that’s irrelevant). It’s not about the Jedi. So he sticks to that bottom line. The Jedi are just the good guys. He expects you to take that for granted. Yoda is literally a vessel Lucas uses to convey his own philosophy. The whole, “Why didn’t the Jedi go back to Tatooine and free Shimi?” is just a plot hole, not a way to point out the flaws of the Jedi. He does make sure to have Qui-Gon try to free Shmi to show that he’s selfless and caring, but once she’s out of the story it doesn’t really matter. Because Lucas doesn’t really dwell on that stuff. He’s more focused on the overall themes. Shmi has to die for Anakin’s story arc. She leaves the story when she needs to and comes back when she needs to. It’s why he forgets that Leia should know her birth mother. Because to him, the visual parallels between Vader’s birth and the death of his wife/birth of his children was more important. He cares more about sticking to themes then continuity or the plot. Now, you really shouldn’t have to sacrifice one for the other, but again, Lucas is a visual, experimental filmmaker. He isn’t into all that. He cares more about mythological themes and concepts then plot holes or great dialogue writing.

Vladius said:

He doesn’t specifically want revenge on the Jedi, but I think he does get angry with them. His frustrations with the council make it easier for Palpatine to sway him and get him to accept moral relativism. I did like that it wasn’t so simplistic as him just hating the Jedi.

Touching on the greed thing, I think one part people tend to miss is that Anakin could have left the Jedi if he really wanted to be with Padme. He loved her but he also had an ambitious side that wouldn’t let him pass up chances to advance and increase in power. “I want more, and I know I shouldn’t.” He wanted to have his cake and eat it too. Notice that’s how Palpatine tempts him with both things at once - he can save Padme by becoming more powerful. It appeals to his love for her and his ambition at the same time, and he gets swept up in it until his ambition lets the dark side overwhelm him and he’s force choking the person he’s ostensibly trying to save.

I agree. There are people who think that Anakin sides with Palpatine partially because Ahsoka was banished and he got denied the rank of master. But Lucas says over and over, that the only reason he turned was to save Padme. No nightmares, no turn to the dark side. All the “The Jedi are evil” bullshit is exactly that. Bullshit. It’s his rationalization for his actions. He gets a little irritated that they don’t give him the rank of master, but like, first, he’s not ready for it (yet), and second, that wouldn’t have made him turn to the dark side.

“…it’s very easy to have the audience believe that Anakin is miffed because he doesn’t get to go on the mission [to Utapau], that, you know, he’s angry because he’s not a master, and this scene [Padme’s ruminations] is really designed to remind you that his real problem is that he just doesn’t wanna lose her” - GL Revenge of the Sith Director’s Commentary

I agree with the last paragraph. Him joining the dark side to save Padme was absolutely selfish. It was about him not wanting to feel the pain of losing her, not her own safety. He was thinking of her as a possession and not a person, which is what attachment is, according to the Jedi. I think him wanting power could’ve been emphasized more though. Hence why I think it would be cool if they added another layer to his turn: wanting to be immortal for himself.

Darth Malgus said:

Well, although I’m usually a fan of Lucas’ work, in this case I can only disagree with him. As I have already explained elsewhere, I don’t share his view about the Jedi and Anakin’s fall, because I think that the Jedi philosophy was inherently flawed and that Anakin doesn’t deserve to be blamed for what happened. That said, I think what you highlighted is simply a coincidence. I mean, the same reasoning could be applied to Anakin and Padmé’s respective last words. Padmé’s last words were: “I know there is good in him, I know there is, still”, while Anakin’s last words were: “You were right”. Well, put this way, it could almost feel like a connection, when in reality it’s simply a coincidence. The fact that there are sentences that casually rhyme within the movies doesn’t mean that there is a real connection between them. These are just coincidences, and to derive an entire explanation/theory from them is at least exaggerated in my opinion.

Here’s the deal about Jedi philosophy: attachment in Star Wars does not mean the dictionary definition of attachment. It’s the Buddhist definition: the inability to let go of things. Lucas has said the Jedi are allowed to feel emotions. They’re allowed to feel love. This is shown. Yoda admits he’s afraid for Anakin’s training (proving that Anakin being afraid wasn’t the problem, it’s that he wouldn’t admit it and repressing it that was the problem). Yoda tells Padme he has warm feelings in his heart after she survives the assassination attempt. Mace Windu vouches for both Dooku and Anakin in AOTC (Mace and Yoda cut Anakin more slack then Obi-Wan, in AOTC). Yoda cries when he feels Anakin’s in pain.

Should these things have been better clarified and emphasized in the scripts, and the Jedi made to seem more kind and empathetic? Absolutely. You shouldn’t have to read Lucas quotes to understand the movies. But George Lucas being a bad writer doesn’t change the fact that the Jedi aren’t intended to be emotionless assholes.

The “no attachments” doctrine is about not letting your feelings interfere with a mission and being willing to let things go when need be. Obi-Wan loves Satine, in The Clone Wars, he even says, “It’s not that we’re not allowed to have these feelings, it’s natural”, but he doesn’t let it interfere with a mission like Anakin does. And when Satine dies, Obi-Wan lets her go. He doesn’t succumb to the dark side. He doesn’t close out his emotions. He feels his emotions but then moves on. When Bo-Katan tries to emotionally blackmail him, he doesn’t fall for it, because he can’t let his emotions cloud his judgement. The same thing happens after Qui-Gon’s death. He openly cries, but then moves on and honors his memory by training Anakin.

He doesn’t enter a relationship with her because he has a commitment to the Jedi Order. If a Jedi wants to be in a relationship, they need to leave. “A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind.” And there’s no shame in leaving the Order. Dooku left and the Jedi still spoke fondly of him, let him keep his lightsaber (Dooku: Jedi Lost novel), and even built him a statue (in a deleted scene). It’s not a cult. Anakin should’ve either left the Jedi Order after AOTC or waited to marry Padme after the clone war.

Anakin knows the difference between attachment and love. As he says in AOTC and an episode in The Clone Wars when he lectures Ahsoka on the importance of letting go of attachments (in the Geonosis zombie worms episode). It’s not that he doesn’t understand the teachings or objects to them, it’s that he doesn’t have the emotional strength to apply them to himself.

The problem is that Anakin was willing to do anything to keep Padme from dying. He was shown that Padme could die (“Always in motion is the future”) and that there’s nothing he could do about it (for the sake of the plot we’re gonna assume there’s no such things as C-sections in Star Wars; which I mean, this is coming from the same guy who said “There is no underwear in space”, so it really ain’t all that hard to believe), but he refused to accept it. According to George Lucas, Plagueis could not actually cheat death. That was a lie. There was nothing Anakin could do except trust in Padme’s strength to make it through childbirth. If he had listened to Yoda and accepted that, then things would’ve been alright. It’s possible she would’ve survived, and if not, Anakin would’ve needed rejoice for the good memories he shared, honor her memory, and let go. That’s what the Jedi way is about. It’s really just about living a healthy life. Not craving control over things you have no control over. Because that’s how you get greedy.

George Lucas obviously doesn’t think you should repress your emotions, never be emotionally attached to anybody or never get married. He’s a very emotionally open guy, he’s been married twice and has kids. He just used a different meaning of the word attachment, and people were (rightfully) confused.

Another quote from Lucas:
“A Jedi is never lonely. They live on compassion. They live on helping people, and people love them. They can love people back. But when that person dies, they let go. Those that cannot let go become miserable. That’s the lonely place.”

That parallel is definitely not a coincidence. Anakin’s whole arc is learning to stop wanting control over the natural cycle of life.

As Lucas puts it:
“The Jedi are trained to let go. They’re trained from birth, they’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can’t form attachments. So, what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death.”

Obviously when the line in Return of the Jedi was written it wasn’t about that. But the premise of his turn in the prequels adds meaning to that line where there wasn’t before. Thus making it a retroactive parallel.

yotsuya said:

That would have been so cool. Not sure if you can find a way to put that in an Ep III edit, but it would enrich the story.

In order to do that you’d really have to have whole new scenes and dialogue. It’s not something you could do through the edit, at least not in a way I can think of.

It would have to be a rewrite. Which is something I’ve been thinking of doing, for the prequels.

The latter is what I would prefer. I do love how Lucas used Anakin’s fall to have themes about the dangers of clinging onto someone too hard and not being able to let go. But I also think that having an added layer of Anakin’s unwillingness to accept his own mortality as well would add more to it.

Because you’re having a man literally slaughter his entire adoptive family. Going against everything he fought for and valued. His reasoning for turning should be multi-layered.

I feel like that’s a lot of the reason people cling to the “Jedi were ideologically flawed and Anakin was getting revenge on the Jedi for forcing him to repress his emotions” head canon when George Lucas literally agrees with the Jedi’s philosophy (and says they’re allowed to love and all that) and only blames Anakin’s greed and Palpatine’s manipulation for his turn. Anakin literally only turned to save his wife. Nothing to do with the Jedi.

“Some of the people had a hard time with the reason that Anakin goes bad… They didn’t seem to understand the fact that Anakin is simply greedy. There is no revenge. The revenge of the Sith is Palpatine. It doesn’t have much to do with Darth Vader; he’s a pawn in the whole scheme.”
-George Lucas, The Making of Revenge of the Sith

And that’s kinda hard for a lot of people to accept. So I think emphasizing more that Anakin’s only goal isn’t to prevent Padme’s death, but also his own and bringing order to the galaxy, bending the natural cycle of life and the state of the galaxy to his will, would be a good way to make his turn more layered.

I noticed an interesting retroactive parallel between Return of the Jedi and Attack of the Clones

Attack of the Clones:
Padme: “You’re not all powerful.”
Anakin: “Well I should be! I will be the most powerful Jedi ever! I promise you… I will even learn to stop people from dying!”

Return of the Jedi:
Anakin: “Luke, help me take this mask off.”
Luke: “But you’ll die.”
Anakin: “Nothing can stop that now.”

I thought it was kinda neat how they retroactively created an arc where Anakin learns to accept mortality and death.

Then I realized, what if they had added another layer to Anakin’s turn to the dark side based on that line? Anakin is not only afraid of the deaths of those he cares about, but his own?

What if one of Anakin’s biggest fears is not only the mortality of the ones he cares about but that of his own? He craves power because he seeks immortality for himself, as well. When he learns the Sith crave and work towards immortality and the dark side may be a way to achieve it, it adds another layer to his turn. And in addition, makes his line finally accepting that nothing can stop his death even more meaningful.

It adds a dramatic irony, too. Obi-Wan is able to achieve immortality by the time of A New Hope and boasts to Vader that he’s more powerful then he can possibly imagine because of it. Vader turned to the dark side partially to achieve immortality but Obi-Wan achieves it by staying on the light with practically no effort. Then when Vader finally becomes Anakin again, ditches the dark side, accepts the light, accepts his mortality, and lets go of his selfishness, then is when he’s finally able to achieve immortality. But only after he learned not to want it and stop wishing to control the natural cycle of life. Accepting that death is “The way of the things. The way of the Force,” as Yoda would put it.

EddieDean said:

Just to be explicit for the purposes of generating some thought, here’re some of the things that scene communicates:

• They have a fun teasing relationship but Anakin still defers to Obi-Wan’s teaching and wisdom
• Anakin is aggressive and focused on martial victory, and usually wins their duels
• Obi-Wan thinks Anakin’s too aggressive and blinded by a need for victory and to prove himself - he’ll remain a Padawan until he’s past this
• Anakin needs reminding by Obi-Wan that Jedi are defenders
• Obi-Wan’s patient, and resourceful even when apparently losing

Scenes from AOTC which could be relevant to those threads:

• Anakin’s eager to protect Padmé - could be read as needing to prove himself
• Anakin rushes after Zam Wesell when Obi-Wan pursues a smarter approach
• Anakin murders the Tuskens - “Mercy doesn’t defeat the enemy, master”
• Anakin vows to Padmé that he’ll find a way to prevent the deaths of those he loves
• Anakin’s captured by Dooku during his attempted rescue of Obi-Wan
• Geonosis fight
• Anakin rushes into the Dooku fight and is defeated

All of this. Plus it makes it seem like Obi-Wan and Anakin are actually friends and makes Anakin out to actually be a likable guy.

what was wrong with the original background from the movie

I really don’t see how it improves the pacing. If anything I’d say it has a negative effect on it. You spend way too much time away from the main villains to the point where you start to wonder what’s going on with them. The way it is in the final movie is perfect. You’re shown what the villains are doing, and then after the first sequence with the heroes we are updated with the status of the villains.

Plus the Vader scene is great and helps give build up to the Emperor’s arrival.

Why isn’t his nightmare about Padme dying anymore?

The only way I see a plotline of Vader trying to destroy the Empire from within working is if he’s doing it for selfish Sithy reasons, wanting to take Palpatine’s place and continue the whole “rule the galaxy as father and son” thing. Vader is not the kind of person to admit that he’s wrong, he’s the type to double down based on his emotions. Because he can’t let go of anything. Through the whole movie he keeps avoiding the truth and refusing to admit to his feelings. “If that is your destiny.” “There is no conflict.” “If you do not fight, then you will meet your destiny.”

The guy’s been at this “right hand of the Emperor” business for over 2 decades. He had multiple opportunities to do the right thing but refused because he couldn’t let go of his hatred and pain. It would take something enormous to get him to even think about changing his mind, like his son being electrocuted to death right in front of him.

Yep. Definitely agree with Sparky.

From my perspective, it feels less like a deed of a good man and more like a serial killer repenting on their deathbed.

That’s kinda exactly what it is.

The entire point is that Vader is a monster. Nothing he does can change that. But it still wasn’t too late for him to do the right thing. To turn to the light, kill the Emperor and destroy what he helped create. And he does. Along with himself and the Emperor, he brings down the Empire.

His redemption isn’t making up for what he did. He’s only redeemed in the sense that he chose to act out of selfless compassion (the way of the Jedi) instead of selfishness (the way of the Sith). Changing the person he was on the inside and finally letting go of his selfishness, hatred, and even his primal fear of death, which as Yoda says, “is the way of things. The way of the Force”.

You’re still trying to turn it into the person in the physical world atoning for what they did. But that’s not what it is and it never could be. It’s like asking someone to write a story about Hitler making up for the bad things he did (maybe slightly different, because Vader wasn’t the top guy in charge of the Empire, that’d be Palpatine, but it’s still pretty close). He literally was the backbone of a facist Sith regime for 23 years that committed genocide. You can’t make up for that. But he does stop the horror and become the man he once was. It’s all just about Vader choosing to be Anakin again on the inside, to do the right thing, and to finally be selfless. To give his life for his son. The only way his redemption works is if he sacrifices himself. You can’t have Vader go to the rebellion after saving Luke and saying, “Sorry that I, you know, helped enslave the galaxy, wiped out the Jedi, was a Sith for decades and literally probably killed your friends and families, but I’d really like to help out.” Vader can’t be redeemed in the sense of taking action that makes up for what he did in the physical realm; Vader is redeemed in the fact that he changed the person he was on the inside back to the compassionate Anakin Skywalker (in a sense, spiritually). As Lucas said, he took that last ounce of good left in him and destroyed the Emperor.

Also Luke being the only one who actually forgives Vader is also kind of the point. Most people in the galaxy would never and wouldn’t be expected to. But Luke is different not just because of his personality and the fact that Vader’s his dad but also because he’s a Jedi, and Jedi love everybody including the Sith.

“The Jedi are trained to let go. They’re trained from birth. They’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith."

There’s a reason Luke is the only one attending his funeral.

I love Vader’s arc in ROTJ, I think it was done perfectly. I even rank ROTJ above ANH, personally.

The point of Vader’s “redemption” isn’t that he slowly became a good guy. That side was always there, he just suppressed it constantly. Throughout both ESB and ROTJ he has a soft spot for his son. But he just keeps lying to himself saying that he will kill him if he has to… but he never does. In fact he basically lets Luke beat him, since all of his conflict weakened him so much (Vader was way more powerful and skillful then Luke, but he was crippled by conflict). The point is that it was sudden on purpose because Vader saving Luke is supposed to be something he’s highly contemplative about but eventually gives into his good side. It’s an emotional choice at the conclusion of a long drawn out battle in which Vader is basically being forced into a corner to pick between the Sith and his son, and his good nature is essentially forced to rise again because he just can’t let his son die. And more importantly, it’s that after 23 years of basically being Satan’s right hand, continuously making the wrong choice, he finally did the right thing. The thing he knew to be right from the very beginning but couldn’t muster the strength to do. But in his final act he finally let go of his hatred and pain and chose to show compassion. The entire point is that he was evil right up until he made that decision. He doesn’t technically make up for everything he did because he’s not supposed to. Because he can’t.

"It really has to do with learning. Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can’t be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he’s caused. He doesn’t right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, ‘I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I have grown to love - primarily the Emperor - and throw away my life, to save this person. And I’m doing this because he has faith in me, loves me despite all the horrible things I’ve done. I broke his mother’s heart, but he still cares about me, and I can’t let that die.’

Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the Chosen One, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."
-George Lucas

It’s supposed to be sudden and because of that it’s far more impactful to see him finally be selfless again after being a monster for so long. He goes out in a blaze of glory. It also makes it far more impactful for Luke to spare Vader despite the fact that he’s still evil.

Y’know, it kinda just dawned on me, that calling Vader being Luke’s father universe shrinking is actually pretty ridiculous. Luke’s father was already Obi-Wan’s best friend and Vader was his apprentice. They were already close, it was already pretty shrinked. You’re literally just eliminating one single person by making Anakin be Vader, both of which were already close. This is absolutely nothing compared to C-3PO and R2 in the prequels and Chewbacca in ROTS. Like damn, apparently the universe is so much more vast because of one additional person.

This would be like if you were making a movie of my life and decided to combine two of my brothers into the same character or combining my best friend and one of my brothers into one character for a more streamlined screenplay and then calling it universe shrinking, even though it’s just combining two of the 7 billion people in the population together. And with Star Wars it’s trillions in the galaxy. It’s literally nothing. It’d be like combining Plo-Koon and Kit Fisto into one dude. Like damn, really shrinked the universe there.

And considering how much more complex both Vader and Luke’s characters are by having them be father and son respectively and their relationship and the depth it gave to both the trilogy and the saga, it’s by far absolutely worth it.

Also: making Vader Luke’s father helped Luke’s character just as much as Vader’s. Vader was given a whole new layer of depth (being more then just cold-hearted monstrous bad guy, also being turned into a man who has fallen, who was once good but became a monster) while Luke was forced to face the fact that his father wasn’t who he thought he was, overcome his hatred for him and instead choose to love him, choose to confront his inner demons and fear that he’ll become just like his father, and also be a Jedi independently of his father. Originally Luke only wanted to become a Jedi because his father became a Jedi. But Luke finding out Vader is his father makes him become a Jedi for himself and not because he wants to live up to an idealized version of his father. Because him realizing Vader is his father crushed him, because it shattered his illusion that in order to become great he needed to be just like his father. But he’s a Jedi not because of his blood, but because of who he is. Luke thinks he’s destined to become what his father was, and when he found out his father became evil, he fears he will too. But Luke grows beyond this and becomes his own man rather then just trying to live up to his father, and in the process, redeems his father.

The irony of you saying Vader being Luke’s father makes things too connected by family is that Luke’s arc after realizing Vader is his father is about him choosing to be his own man and not just follow in the footsteps of his father. That he’s more then just his blood. He becomes a Jedi despite his blood, not because of it. Just having him want to be a Jedi just because of his father is shallow.

What’s hilarious about your comparison to the original Godzilla is that the original Godzilla has a shit ton of universe shrinkage. Dr. Serizawa, Emiko, Ogata, and Dr. Yamane, the four most important people in all of Japan, all happen to be tied together through a bunch of convoluted family drama. Emiko just happens to be the daughter of the paleontologist who figures out what Godzilla really is, she just happens to be having an affair with the salvage crewman who finds him in the South Pacific, and she just happens to be engaged to the scientist who invents the super-weapon that ultimately kills him (and is also Yamane’s protegee).

But I guess having characters have meaningful relationships with one another is only bad when Star Wars does it?

BedeHistory731 said:

It also shrinks the universe a little and turns the Skywalkers into the most important family in the galaxy. I don’t like the idea of lineage dictating a character’s power. Luke being a nobody who happens to be the son of a random Jedi and not the son of an all-time powerful Jedi/regional manager of the Empire sounds a bit better to me at the moment. I hate how lineage becomes so important, especially to the fan (and Abrams’) perspective.

Star Wars is supposed to be a family soap opera, according to George Lucas.

Universe shrinkage isn’t always a bad thing. First of all, it gives a lot more connection to Vader and Luke. Their relationship is basically non-existent without that family element. The family element makes it far more fascinating and the conflict between the characters way deeper. Universe shrinkage allows for far more meaningful relationships among the characters. Second, like I said, too many characters often makes things too complex in a screenplay. Usually the less characters you have, the more depth and development each of them have. Less is more. Notice how a lot of beloved franchises have 3 main characters (including both of Lucas’ trilogies: Luke, Han, and Leia, and then Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme). It’s a good number because it’s enough characters to make it so you don’t have enough developed characters to latch on to but not too much so it feels like the movie’s asking you to care about too many people.

Luke was always important because of his family lineage? He’s always trained because he’s the descendent of a powerful Jedi? If that’s not the case then why did Obi-Wan spend so much time with him instead of training a ton of people over the years?

Also, damn it’s almost like things from one family member get passed down to another.

It seems like you’re just infatuated with an idea without realizing that it just works poorly on screen. Having Vader once be the man Obi-Wan described Luke’s father as immediately adds more depth to his character. Without combining Vader and Anakin they both become a lot less complex and interesting. Since when was the universe feeling vast more important then character depth and the characters having meaningful relationships with one another? Because if you ask me that was never.

BedeHistory731 said:

Perhaps Leia shouldn’t be the child of a Jedi? The brother-sister twist should also be on the chopping block as it really feels half-assed.

You missed the point entirely. That still doesn’t answer why Luke is the only child of any Jedi left around. If Jedi having children is something any normal Jedi would do, why is he the only one? Why doesn’t Obi-Wan or Yoda or any of the other Jedi have any children? You mean to tell me Luke is the only child of any Jedi left in the entire galaxy?

It’s almost like having Anakin be a morally ambiguous character who then turned to the dark side and became Vader because he broke the rules that Jedi shouldn’t get married and have children kinda ties all the loose ends, doesn’t it?

BedeHistory731 said:

IMHO (which could change sooner or later), Star Wars (no A New Hope) is like Gojira. It works well as the start of a series and as a standalone, but it’s best as a standalone. Controversial, I know, but its my take at the moment.

Nah. Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi expand on the themes and the characters. It makes everything a lot more complex and interesting and further develops everybody. Vader would be 1/4 of the amazing character he is without ESB or ROTJ. I’d even argue Luke would be half of what he is without the two sequels. If you just have ANH as a standalone movie his journey isn’t complete. He’s not even a Jedi by the end of the first movie. Meanwhile the rest of the Showa Godzilla series is mostly garbage that immediately shits on the themes of the original (turning Godzilla into a hero justifies the use of nuclear weapons, the thing the original was very much against) and has hardly any character development because they don’t ever maintain the same cast. The sequels don’t continue the journeys of any of the previous characters, they just give us a new cast movie after movie and none of them live up to the original’s cast in the slightest (with a couple of exceptions).

SparkySywer said:

Star Wars 77 is a fantastic movie on its own, but I don’t think it would be as worth remembering without The Empire Strikes Back

Agree. ANH is excellent but a lot of what makes Star Wars so beloved and iconic is owed more to ESB then ANH. Especially when it comes to Darth Vader.

BedeHistory731 said:

Sometimes I only want the 1977 original to be canon. Maybe I’ve soured on the long-term issues around Vader being Luke’s father, IDK.

Hahahahahahahahaha no. Star Wars would be half of what it is if Vader wasn’t Luke’s father. ROTJ would go from a beautiful story of how a father redeemed himself to save his son to a cliche, boring “Luke kills the Emperor and Vader and saves the day! Luke gets revenge on the evil bad guy who killed his dad!”. Bleh. Imagine a ROTJ without the bridge scene between Luke and Vader, Vader throwing the Emperor down the shaft and Anakin telling Luke he was always right about him. AKA the best parts of ROTJ? Sounds pretty shitty if you ask me. The entire third act of ROTJ basically becomes meaningless. Nothing.

Literally everything would have a lot less emotional depth too, from Luke’s journey to Vader’s character. Vader especially is given a shit ton more depth. It makes their relationship far more interesting and gives them an actual connection beyond just a shallow “I want revenge on you because you killed my dad!”.

And also, just from a simple screenwriting perspective, it makes a lot more sense to just lump Anakin and Vader into the same character. Having Obi-Wan have both a best friend and an apprentice just adds more unnecessary characters, and both characters would just be bland archetypes without lumping them together. Anakin is an interesting character because of the things that lead him to become Darth Vader, remove that and you just have a typical one-dimensional hero character. Anakin’s flaws are what make him work, otherwise he’s bland. What’s the point of having both a best friend character and an apprentice character when you can just combine them, leading to a much more interesting character with a lot more depth? In general, when you have too many characters it becomes harder to develop them all. The prequels already had so many characters to develop, lmao.

It also explains why Luke and Leia are the only children of any Jedi that are around. Because Anakin broke the rules, and this contributed to him becoming Darth Vader.

I don’t see any problem with not wanting to work with your ex. Seems like a natural thing for a human being.

I find it a little ironic that she apparently left George because he wouldn’t stop making movies, but now she thinks it’s unfortunate that she wasn’t brought in to do the prequels.

Still, it would’ve been interesting to see what impact she might’ve had on the prequels.

In what way did she “fix” ROTJ?

I wouldn’t be surprised if he already fixed them himself, since the man is so good he can literally identify the most minute continuity errors.

Darth Malgus said:

Can I have links for these edita?

I’m doing new versions of my prequel trilogy and I kinda already deleted my old ones unfortunately, so you’ll kinda have to wait till then. Sorry.

Vladius said:

I don’t agree with anything in the OP

Neither do I, which is why I just now retracted the statement lmao

EddieDean said:

The problem with that is that Jar Jar also appears in AOTC, ROTS, and TCW, which adds some burden if you’re looking to cover all your bases, and it also means that a viewer of such a TPM edit is left with less choice of fanedits for the other prequel movies.

Ideally you’d have AOTC and ROTS edits that do the same thing.