G&G-Fan

The latter is what I would prefer. I do love how Lucas used Anakin’s fall to have themes about the dangers of clinging onto someone too hard and not being able to let go. But I also think that having an added layer of Anakin’s unwillingness to accept his own mortality as well would add more to it.

Because you’re having a man literally slaughter his entire adoptive family. Going against everything he fought for and valued. His reasoning for turning should be multi-layered.

I feel like that’s a lot of the reason people cling to the “Jedi were ideologically flawed and Anakin was getting revenge on the Jedi for forcing him to repress his emotions” head canon when George Lucas literally agrees with the Jedi’s philosophy (and says they’re allowed to love and all that) and only blames Anakin’s greed and Palpatine’s manipulation for his turn. Anakin literally only turned to save his wife. Nothing to do with the Jedi.

“Some of the people had a hard time with the reason that Anakin goes bad… They didn’t seem to understand the fact that Anakin is simply greedy. There is no revenge. The revenge of the Sith is Palpatine. It doesn’t have much to do with Darth Vader; he’s a pawn in the whole scheme.”
-George Lucas, The Making of Revenge of the Sith

And that’s kinda hard for a lot of people to accept. So I think emphasizing more that Anakin’s only goal isn’t to prevent Padme’s death, but also his own and bringing order to the galaxy, bending the natural cycle of life and the state of the galaxy to his will, would be a good way to make his turn more layered.

I noticed an interesting retroactive parallel between Return of the Jedi and Attack of the Clones

Attack of the Clones:
Padme: “You’re not all powerful.”
Anakin: “Well I should be! I will be the most powerful Jedi ever! I promise you… I will even learn to stop people from dying!”

Return of the Jedi:
Anakin: “Luke, help me take this mask off.”
Luke: “But you’ll die.”
Anakin: “Nothing can stop that now.”

I thought it was kinda neat how they retroactively created an arc where Anakin learns to accept mortality and death.

Then I realized, what if they had added another layer to Anakin’s turn to the dark side based on that line? Anakin is not only afraid of the deaths of those he cares about, but his own?

What if one of Anakin’s biggest fears is not only the mortality of the ones he cares about but that of his own? He craves power because he seeks immortality for himself, as well. When he learns the Sith crave and work towards immortality and the dark side may be a way to achieve it, it adds another layer to his turn. And in addition, makes his line finally accepting that nothing can stop his death even more meaningful.

It adds a dramatic irony, too. Obi-Wan is able to achieve immortality by the time of A New Hope and boasts to Vader that he’s more powerful then he can possibly imagine because of it. Vader turned to the dark side partially to achieve immortality but Obi-Wan achieves it by staying on the light with practically no effort. Then when Vader finally becomes Anakin again, ditches the dark side, accepts the light, accepts his mortality, and lets go of his selfishness, then is when he’s finally able to achieve immortality. But only after he learned not to want it and stop wishing to control the natural cycle of life. Accepting that death is “The way of the things. The way of the Force,” as Yoda would put it.

EddieDean said:

Just to be explicit for the purposes of generating some thought, here’re some of the things that scene communicates:

• They have a fun teasing relationship but Anakin still defers to Obi-Wan’s teaching and wisdom
• Anakin is aggressive and focused on martial victory, and usually wins their duels
• Obi-Wan thinks Anakin’s too aggressive and blinded by a need for victory and to prove himself - he’ll remain a Padawan until he’s past this
• Anakin needs reminding by Obi-Wan that Jedi are defenders
• Obi-Wan’s patient, and resourceful even when apparently losing

Scenes from AOTC which could be relevant to those threads:

• Anakin’s eager to protect Padmé - could be read as needing to prove himself
• Anakin rushes after Zam Wesell when Obi-Wan pursues a smarter approach
• Anakin murders the Tuskens - “Mercy doesn’t defeat the enemy, master”
• Anakin vows to Padmé that he’ll find a way to prevent the deaths of those he loves
• Anakin’s captured by Dooku during his attempted rescue of Obi-Wan
• Geonosis fight
• Anakin rushes into the Dooku fight and is defeated

All of this. Plus it makes it seem like Obi-Wan and Anakin are actually friends and makes Anakin out to actually be a likable guy.

what was wrong with the original background from the movie

I really don’t see how it improves the pacing. If anything I’d say it has a negative effect on it. You spend way too much time away from the main villains to the point where you start to wonder what’s going on with them. The way it is in the final movie is perfect. You’re shown what the villains are doing, and then after the first sequence with the heroes we are updated with the status of the villains.

Plus the Vader scene is great and helps give build up to the Emperor’s arrival.

Why isn’t his nightmare about Padme dying anymore?

The only way I see a plotline of Vader trying to destroy the Empire from within working is if he’s doing it for selfish Sithy reasons, wanting to take Palpatine’s place and continue the whole “rule the galaxy as father and son” thing. Vader is not the kind of person to admit that he’s wrong, he’s the type to double down based on his emotions. Because he can’t let go of anything. Through the whole movie he keeps avoiding the truth and refusing to admit to his feelings. “If that is your destiny.” “There is no conflict.” “If you do not fight, then you will meet your destiny.”

The guy’s been at this “right hand of the Emperor” business for over 2 decades. He had multiple opportunities to do the right thing but refused because he couldn’t let go of his hatred and pain. It would take something enormous to get him to even think about changing his mind, like his son being electrocuted to death right in front of him.

Yep. Definitely agree with Sparky.

From my perspective, it feels less like a deed of a good man and more like a serial killer repenting on their deathbed.

That’s kinda exactly what it is.

The entire point is that Vader is a monster. Nothing he does can change that. But it still wasn’t too late for him to do the right thing. To turn to the light, kill the Emperor and destroy what he helped create. And he does. Along with himself and the Emperor, he brings down the Empire.

His redemption isn’t making up for what he did. He’s only redeemed in the sense that he chose to act out of selfless compassion (the way of the Jedi) instead of selfishness (the way of the Sith). Changing the person he was on the inside and finally letting go of his selfishness, hatred, and even his primal fear of death, which as Yoda says, “is the way of things. The way of the Force”.

You’re still trying to turn it into the person in the physical world atoning for what they did. But that’s not what it is and it never could be. It’s like asking someone to write a story about Hitler making up for the bad things he did (maybe slightly different, because Vader wasn’t the top guy in charge of the Empire, that’d be Palpatine, but it’s still pretty close). He literally was the backbone of a facist Sith regime for 23 years that committed genocide. You can’t make up for that. But he does stop the horror and become the man he once was. It’s all just about Vader choosing to be Anakin again on the inside, to do the right thing, and to finally be selfless. To give his life for his son. The only way his redemption works is if he sacrifices himself. You can’t have Vader go to the rebellion after saving Luke and saying, “Sorry that I, you know, helped enslave the galaxy, wiped out the Jedi, was a Sith for decades and literally probably killed your friends and families, but I’d really like to help out.” Vader can’t be redeemed in the sense of taking action that makes up for what he did in the physical realm; Vader is redeemed in the fact that he changed the person he was on the inside back to the compassionate Anakin Skywalker (in a sense, spiritually). As Lucas said, he took that last ounce of good left in him and destroyed the Emperor.

Also Luke being the only one who actually forgives Vader is also kind of the point. Most people in the galaxy would never and wouldn’t be expected to. But Luke is different not just because of his personality and the fact that Vader’s his dad but also because he’s a Jedi, and Jedi love everybody including the Sith.

“The Jedi are trained to let go. They’re trained from birth. They’re not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith."

There’s a reason Luke is the only one attending his funeral.

I love Vader’s arc in ROTJ, I think it was done perfectly. I even rank ROTJ above ANH, personally.

The point of Vader’s “redemption” isn’t that he slowly became a good guy. That side was always there, he just suppressed it constantly. Throughout both ESB and ROTJ he has a soft spot for his son. But he just keeps lying to himself saying that he will kill him if he has to… but he never does. In fact he basically lets Luke beat him, since all of his conflict weakened him so much (Vader was way more powerful and skillful then Luke, but he was crippled by conflict). The point is that it was sudden on purpose because Vader saving Luke is supposed to be something he’s highly contemplative about but eventually gives into his good side. It’s an emotional choice at the conclusion of a long drawn out battle in which Vader is basically being forced into a corner to pick between the Sith and his son, and his good nature is essentially forced to rise again because he just can’t let his son die. And more importantly, it’s that after 23 years of basically being Satan’s right hand, continuously making the wrong choice, he finally did the right thing. The thing he knew to be right from the very beginning but couldn’t muster the strength to do. But in his final act he finally let go of his hatred and pain and chose to show compassion. The entire point is that he was evil right up until he made that decision. He doesn’t technically make up for everything he did because he’s not supposed to. Because he can’t.

"It really has to do with learning. Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can’t be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he’s caused. He doesn’t right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, ‘I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I have grown to love - primarily the Emperor - and throw away my life, to save this person. And I’m doing this because he has faith in me, loves me despite all the horrible things I’ve done. I broke his mother’s heart, but he still cares about me, and I can’t let that die.’

Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the Chosen One, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."
-George Lucas

It’s supposed to be sudden and because of that it’s far more impactful to see him finally be selfless again after being a monster for so long. He goes out in a blaze of glory. It also makes it far more impactful for Luke to spare Vader despite the fact that he’s still evil.

Y’know, it kinda just dawned on me, that calling Vader being Luke’s father universe shrinking is actually pretty ridiculous. Luke’s father was already Obi-Wan’s best friend and Vader was his apprentice. They were already close, it was already pretty shrinked. You’re literally just eliminating one single person by making Anakin be Vader, both of which were already close. This is absolutely nothing compared to C-3PO and R2 in the prequels and Chewbacca in ROTS. Like damn, apparently the universe is so much more vast because of one additional person.

This would be like if you were making a movie of my life and decided to combine two of my brothers into the same character or combining my best friend and one of my brothers into one character for a more streamlined screenplay and then calling it universe shrinking, even though it’s just combining two of the 7 billion people in the population together. And with Star Wars it’s trillions in the galaxy. It’s literally nothing. It’d be like combining Plo-Koon and Kit Fisto into one dude. Like damn, really shrinked the universe there.

And considering how much more complex both Vader and Luke’s characters are by having them be father and son respectively and their relationship and the depth it gave to both the trilogy and the saga, it’s by far absolutely worth it.

Also: making Vader Luke’s father helped Luke’s character just as much as Vader’s. Vader was given a whole new layer of depth (being more then just cold-hearted monstrous bad guy, also being turned into a man who has fallen, who was once good but became a monster) while Luke was forced to face the fact that his father wasn’t who he thought he was, overcome his hatred for him and instead choose to love him, choose to confront his inner demons and fear that he’ll become just like his father, and also be a Jedi independently of his father. Originally Luke only wanted to become a Jedi because his father became a Jedi. But Luke finding out Vader is his father makes him become a Jedi for himself and not because he wants to live up to an idealized version of his father. Because him realizing Vader is his father crushed him, because it shattered his illusion that in order to become great he needed to be just like his father. But he’s a Jedi not because of his blood, but because of who he is. Luke thinks he’s destined to become what his father was, and when he found out his father became evil, he fears he will too. But Luke grows beyond this and becomes his own man rather then just trying to live up to his father, and in the process, redeems his father.

The irony of you saying Vader being Luke’s father makes things too connected by family is that Luke’s arc after realizing Vader is his father is about him choosing to be his own man and not just follow in the footsteps of his father. That he’s more then just his blood. He becomes a Jedi despite his blood, not because of it. Just having him want to be a Jedi just because of his father is shallow.

What’s hilarious about your comparison to the original Godzilla is that the original Godzilla has a shit ton of universe shrinkage. Dr. Serizawa, Emiko, Ogata, and Dr. Yamane, the four most important people in all of Japan, all happen to be tied together through a bunch of convoluted family drama. Emiko just happens to be the daughter of the paleontologist who figures out what Godzilla really is, she just happens to be having an affair with the salvage crewman who finds him in the South Pacific, and she just happens to be engaged to the scientist who invents the super-weapon that ultimately kills him (and is also Yamane’s protegee).

But I guess having characters have meaningful relationships with one another is only bad when Star Wars does it?

BedeHistory731 said:

It also shrinks the universe a little and turns the Skywalkers into the most important family in the galaxy. I don’t like the idea of lineage dictating a character’s power. Luke being a nobody who happens to be the son of a random Jedi and not the son of an all-time powerful Jedi/regional manager of the Empire sounds a bit better to me at the moment. I hate how lineage becomes so important, especially to the fan (and Abrams’) perspective.

Star Wars is supposed to be a family soap opera, according to George Lucas.

Universe shrinkage isn’t always a bad thing. First of all, it gives a lot more connection to Vader and Luke. Their relationship is basically non-existent without that family element. The family element makes it far more fascinating and the conflict between the characters way deeper. Universe shrinkage allows for far more meaningful relationships among the characters. Second, like I said, too many characters often makes things too complex in a screenplay. Usually the less characters you have, the more depth and development each of them have. Less is more. Notice how a lot of beloved franchises have 3 main characters (including both of Lucas’ trilogies: Luke, Han, and Leia, and then Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme). It’s a good number because it’s enough characters to make it so you don’t have enough developed characters to latch on to but not too much so it feels like the movie’s asking you to care about too many people.

Luke was always important because of his family lineage? He’s always trained because he’s the descendent of a powerful Jedi? If that’s not the case then why did Obi-Wan spend so much time with him instead of training a ton of people over the years?

Also, damn it’s almost like things from one family member get passed down to another.

It seems like you’re just infatuated with an idea without realizing that it just works poorly on screen. Having Vader once be the man Obi-Wan described Luke’s father as immediately adds more depth to his character. Without combining Vader and Anakin they both become a lot less complex and interesting. Since when was the universe feeling vast more important then character depth and the characters having meaningful relationships with one another? Because if you ask me that was never.

BedeHistory731 said:

Perhaps Leia shouldn’t be the child of a Jedi? The brother-sister twist should also be on the chopping block as it really feels half-assed.

You missed the point entirely. That still doesn’t answer why Luke is the only child of any Jedi left around. If Jedi having children is something any normal Jedi would do, why is he the only one? Why doesn’t Obi-Wan or Yoda or any of the other Jedi have any children? You mean to tell me Luke is the only child of any Jedi left in the entire galaxy?

It’s almost like having Anakin be a morally ambiguous character who then turned to the dark side and became Vader because he broke the rules that Jedi shouldn’t get married and have children kinda ties all the loose ends, doesn’t it?

BedeHistory731 said:

IMHO (which could change sooner or later), Star Wars (no A New Hope) is like Gojira. It works well as the start of a series and as a standalone, but it’s best as a standalone. Controversial, I know, but its my take at the moment.

Nah. Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi expand on the themes and the characters. It makes everything a lot more complex and interesting and further develops everybody. Vader would be 1/4 of the amazing character he is without ESB or ROTJ. I’d even argue Luke would be half of what he is without the two sequels. If you just have ANH as a standalone movie his journey isn’t complete. He’s not even a Jedi by the end of the first movie. Meanwhile the rest of the Showa Godzilla series is mostly garbage that immediately shits on the themes of the original (turning Godzilla into a hero justifies the use of nuclear weapons, the thing the original was very much against) and has hardly any character development because they don’t ever maintain the same cast. The sequels don’t continue the journeys of any of the previous characters, they just give us a new cast movie after movie and none of them live up to the original’s cast in the slightest (with a couple of exceptions).

SparkySywer said:

Star Wars 77 is a fantastic movie on its own, but I don’t think it would be as worth remembering without The Empire Strikes Back

Agree. ANH is excellent but a lot of what makes Star Wars so beloved and iconic is owed more to ESB then ANH. Especially when it comes to Darth Vader.

BedeHistory731 said:

Sometimes I only want the 1977 original to be canon. Maybe I’ve soured on the long-term issues around Vader being Luke’s father, IDK.

Hahahahahahahahaha no. Star Wars would be half of what it is if Vader wasn’t Luke’s father. ROTJ would go from a beautiful story of how a father redeemed himself to save his son to a cliche, boring “Luke kills the Emperor and Vader and saves the day! Luke gets revenge on the evil bad guy who killed his dad!”. Bleh. Imagine a ROTJ without the bridge scene between Luke and Vader, Vader throwing the Emperor down the shaft and Anakin telling Luke he was always right about him. AKA the best parts of ROTJ? Sounds pretty shitty if you ask me. The entire third act of ROTJ basically becomes meaningless. Nothing.

Literally everything would have a lot less emotional depth too, from Luke’s journey to Vader’s character. Vader especially is given a shit ton more depth. It makes their relationship far more interesting and gives them an actual connection beyond just a shallow “I want revenge on you because you killed my dad!”.

And also, just from a simple screenwriting perspective, it makes a lot more sense to just lump Anakin and Vader into the same character. Having Obi-Wan have both a best friend and an apprentice just adds more unnecessary characters, and both characters would just be bland archetypes without lumping them together. Anakin is an interesting character because of the things that lead him to become Darth Vader, remove that and you just have a typical one-dimensional hero character. Anakin’s flaws are what make him work, otherwise he’s bland. What’s the point of having both a best friend character and an apprentice character when you can just combine them, leading to a much more interesting character with a lot more depth? In general, when you have too many characters it becomes harder to develop them all. The prequels already had so many characters to develop, lmao.

It also explains why Luke and Leia are the only children of any Jedi that are around. Because Anakin broke the rules, and this contributed to him becoming Darth Vader.

I don’t see any problem with not wanting to work with your ex. Seems like a natural thing for a human being.

I find it a little ironic that she apparently left George because he wouldn’t stop making movies, but now she thinks it’s unfortunate that she wasn’t brought in to do the prequels.

Still, it would’ve been interesting to see what impact she might’ve had on the prequels.

In what way did she “fix” ROTJ?

I wouldn’t be surprised if he already fixed them himself, since the man is so good he can literally identify the most minute continuity errors.

Darth Malgus said:

Can I have links for these edita?

I’m doing new versions of my prequel trilogy and I kinda already deleted my old ones unfortunately, so you’ll kinda have to wait till then. Sorry.

Vladius said:

I don’t agree with anything in the OP

Neither do I, which is why I just now retracted the statement lmao

EddieDean said:

The problem with that is that Jar Jar also appears in AOTC, ROTS, and TCW, which adds some burden if you’re looking to cover all your bases, and it also means that a viewer of such a TPM edit is left with less choice of fanedits for the other prequel movies.

Ideally you’d have AOTC and ROTS edits that do the same thing.

Just came back here to say that I retract what I said here in this thread. I’ve realized for awhile now that it wasn’t Lucas’ intent to have a character arc for Yoda in the prequels in which he realizes that war is wrong.

Lucas’ intent was to show that the Jedi participating in the war was hindering their values, even if they had no other choice. Yoda, like every Jedi, was put in a tough spot, in which he was forced to fight. It’s not about Yoda learning to be non-violent (he’s the same in the prequels as he is in the OT), but about the Jedi being put in a no-win situation, as elaborated in this brilliant Quora answer.
https://qr.ae/pvuA2y

As George elaborates (in this quote he’s responding to a question asking if the Jedi are like police officers).

GEORGE LUCAS: No. They’re not like cops who catch murderers. They’re warrior-monks who keep peace in the universe without resorting to violence. The Trade Federation is in dispute with Naboo, so the Jedi are ambassadors who talk both sides and convince them to resolve their differences and not go to war. If they do have to use violence, they will, but they are diplomats at the highest level. They’ve got the power to send the whole force of the Republic, which is 100 000 systems, so if you don’t behave they can bring you up in front of the Senate. They’ll cut you off at the knees, politically.

They’re like police officers. As the situation develops in the Clone Wars they are recruited into the army, and they become generals. They’re not generals. They don’t kill people. They don’t fight. They’re supposed to be ambassadors. There are a lot of Jedi that think that the Jedi sold out, that they should never have been in the military, but…

PAUL DUNCAN: Do you think that?

GEORGE LUCAS: It’s a tough call. It’s one of the conundrums of which there’s a bunch of in my movies. You have to think it through. Are they going to stick with their moral rules and all be killed, which makes it irrelevant, or do they help save the Republic? They have good intentions, but they have been manipulated which was their downfall.

I think it’d be great to have an edit that just has the gungans speak in an alien language instead. Their speech is just so annoying and hard to understand. And besides when you have them have an alien language and then subtitle them you can make them say whatever you want.

Bruh Aliens is a masterpiece wtf

image isn’t working for me

It’s better the way it is. A whole nother trilogy would’ve stretched the story too thin. Return of the Jedi was a perfect ending to tie all the loose ends.

I find Dow Koo to be cheesy. Dooku is just fine.