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Fang Zei

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14-Oct-2006
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17-Aug-2025
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Post
#318007
Topic
State of the Trilogy/ annual SW depression
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/318007/action/topic#318007
Time
zombie84 said:

Thing is, it was never expensive to begin with. In fact, restoring it from the original negative might actually be cheaper since 95% of that has already been digitized in 2004. Just scan the missing pieces--what, maybe 300, 400 feet of film? So thats under $1000 dollars. A little bit of digital cleanup to get rid of a few of the scratches, and then the standard telecine color correction--the labor charges for these things are a few grand, I would suppose. So really, we could have a digitally remastered, restored version of the OOT made from the original negative for a few thousand dollars. If everyone in this forum chipped in five bucks we could pay for it ourselves. Cost has never really been a factor.


I'd prefer a well-preserved print from the 80's. Failing that, I'd prefer the Robert A Harris route. Meticulously de-SEing the movies, while a noble effort, will never really be 100% true to the original conformation.
Post
#317893
Topic
State of the Trilogy/ annual SW depression
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/317893/action/topic#317893
Time
thecolorsblend2 said:

I realize I'm a day late and a buck short on this discussion, but here goes.

But the OT is so powerful, the majority of people will 'put up' with the SE just to have them on DVD

Some people might but I think the majority of people (ie, Joe Sixpack) would not care which version they get.

Even so, given George's comments on the matter, I wouldn't by any means rule out an eventual real release of the trilogy. When? Your guess is as good as anybody's. If it were coming this year (a stupid choice with the 30th being last year and Indy 4 this year), we would've heard by now, I'd imagine.

As for HD, I can only see a Blu-Ray SE release happening in the next two years if the OOT is included. Lucas, rather obviously, doesn't have faith in the format so I'd imagine he'd want to package in the OOT as "extras" again to make the Blu-Ray thing a killer-app.

If the release happens beyond that window, when Blu-Ray's more established (and until Joe Sixpack has one, it's just a niche), which I estimate to be about two years away, then there'd be no incentive to include the OOT to spike up sales since the format would then be the growing market standard. Sales are assured anyway, right, so why bother?

Incidentally, George's remark about "it'll all come out in the end" was about learning whether people prefer the SE vs. the OOT. Ergo what I think he meant was "the truth will come out". I'd love to be wrong though.


I can't imagine it's more than a couple years away. The 3D re-releases will probably be 2010 because they've been working on them for a while now and how much longer are they just going to sit on them? There isn't really much of an anniversary to tie it in to, so I'd think they would use the 3D release to promote the upcoming live action show in some way. Then, in the fall, the blu-ray hits.

But as for this argument that a 1080p SE will be good enough for most people, well, it won't be good enough for me. I don't care how much detail there is, it's not the version I want. I'm also continuing to disagree with you guys that it'll sell like hotcakes. I'm starting to wonder if that would be true even if he did throw in the OOT. He'll need to do that just so he can get as many people as possible to buy it, 'cause I don't think he's going to wait another five years like he did with dvd. None of what I'm saying really matters at the end of the day because, guess what, they haven't commented on a damn thing regarding the OOT since '06. We don't have the slightest clue what they're up to.

All I'm really trying to say is that I don't think Lucas' ego is that big. Can we all agree that the GOUT resulted from a lack of willingness to spend money, not some incredible issue of pride? Maybe he's just waiting until the blu-ray to remaster it.

Look at it this way:

People, a good number of them anyway, are going to want the OOT in hi-def. For that reason, it would be worth Lucas' while to do some sort of rudimentary restoring/remastering of the OOT and include it in the packaging. The fact that he's lowering it to being "bonus material" doesn't necessarily preclude him from giving it to us in 1080p, even if it doesn't get a meticulous frame by frame job like Lowry did with the SE.
Post
#317697
Topic
State of the Trilogy/ annual SW depression
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/317697/action/topic#317697
Time
Even if the Marcia story is true, I don't really see how that would prevent Lucas from remastering the damn thing. All this does is bring us back to the question of why he didn't do exactly that. I mean, if he was going to have to give Marcia money from the '06 release either way, sorry, but his ego shouldn't get in the way. That's why, especially considering his little "it'll all come out in the end" comment, there's nothing really preventing him from eventually giving us what we want.

Guys, I might just be overthinking things what with the economy not doing so well and all, but you can only go back to the Well so many times. Maybe I'm not seeing things the way they are and the franchise is doing fine as ever, but the prequels were not the cinematic equivalent of the second coming the way people were half-joking they were going to be back in 1998.

This is part of the problem when you're not a part of the hollywood system and you're your own system. Maybe we will have to wait another 20 years to finally see it, I'm just hoping not.
Post
#317640
Topic
State of the Trilogy/ annual SW depression
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/317640/action/topic#317640
Time
I would hope that the treatment of these high profile catalog releases might make Lucas reconsider only including the final versions of the six films. That's beside the point anyway, since he's already done a release that includes both versions. Granted, the real reason was that they wanted to start selling them individually, but it has happened.

The point I was trying to get across is that I would think by now that enough people wouldn't buy Star Wars on blu-ray unless it has what they really want in it. Maybe I really am deluding myself by thinking that, but I just don't know these days.
Post
#317629
Topic
State of the Trilogy/ annual SW depression
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/317629/action/topic#317629
Time
zombie84 said:

I would even disagee with "95% of fans prefer the OOT", I don't think thats even close to being accurate, I would say only about 50% of the fans prefer the OOT because 95% of younger fans like the SE and prequels, and this is LFL's primary demographic right now, that under-20 years old crowd, the one that loves Spiderman 3 and Iron Man and The Matrix. Its sad, but being here, or being amongst friends in the over-20-years-old bracket gives you a warped perspective, just as young fans who only knew the PT-SE and think no one likes the older versions have a warped perspective. So when its just the SE on video, theres backlash but its not huge, and at the end of the day, 95% of the people who DID complain--like, lets face it, most of us, the oldest of oldschool--still buy it.

Who here doesn't have the Lucasfilm DVD's? Maybe 10%? And we are the most stubborn, self-rightous group of fans there is. That says a lot. We'll buy the SE because its still Star Wars, just like most of us will buy the SE on Blu Ray when thats the only version sold and just like most of us will see the SE in theaters in 3D when it comes out in a few years.


This is exactly what I'm getting at, zombie. There are kids into Star Wars today who hadn't even been born in 1997. Unfortunately, as you point out, even if it's an entire 50% of the fans who prefer the OOT, it's the younger, non-OOT exposed group who are forking over the cash, not the people who were around in '77.

In regards to your "who doesn't own the dvd's?" question, well, I don't have the GOUT. I got the '04 set because I'd read so much in articles on the internet about the Lowry restoration, about the additional changes, about the commentaries and documentaries. And even then, I didn't pay for it, my mom did. It's still sitting on the shelf back at home.

It wasn't an issue until LFL decided to hang a carrot out in front of us with that stupid GOUT release. It would've been better had he just not released it, unless of course he really does plan on that being the last time he ever does it. But, at the end of the day, I just have to remind myself that it's coming, eventually, and that the guy from wired magazine was true in his words "they're not going to make the fans happy because the happy fan has everything that he or she needs."

If Lucas hadn't done anything with the OOT on dvd, I wouldn't mind an SE-only blu-ray. But now that I know better, guess what, I won't be buying it if the OOT isn't in there also.
Post
#317617
Topic
State of the Trilogy/ annual SW depression
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/317617/action/topic#317617
Time
Baronlando said:

It just seems to me they could have it all. Release the original versions on dvd and blu-ray NOW (call it the "Star Wars archive" or whatever). Then the final version saga set when more people can swing a 200 dollar blu-ray purchase. The people who want that full saga are going to buy it either way. Why not make a few bucks (and do the right thing) in the meantime?


This is exactly my point. If there apparently aren't THAT MANY PEOPLE OUT THERE who would like the OOT in good quality, what's to stop LFL from doing exactly what you're describing? Just put it out in a small, limited run (and then watch it run out really quickly since there actually are a lot of people out there who wanted it!!!!).

zombie84 said:

and it was the highest rated airings on the networks history.


Actually, I didn't know that. No wonder it was such a big deal when they got the broadcast rights several years back.

What Lucas generally seems to be saying is "Look, it's my movie, take it or leave it. If you want to keep giving me your money, well, I didn't ask for it, and the more you give me, the more millions I can donate to USC. If you want to go out there and make your own movies, go right ahead, maybe I'll even help you out in that department. But as for the Star Wars saga, it's my movie, mine."

That's why he didn't bother remastering the OOT in '06, it's because as far as he's concerned, no one is forcing us to go out and buy it. If we shell out for it now and get burned later, it's our asses. Unfortunately, the problem exists of having to vote with our wallets. If we don't go out and buy it, how is he suppossed to know that we really wanted it after all? But if we do go out and buy it, we're pretty much throwing away money unless a) we didn't already get the set in 2004 and/or b) we want to get just one of the movies individually.

All I'm saying is that the numbers seem to have spoken. I don't think the originally rumored '07 saga set was pushed back for any particular reason, I think it's just that we were reading too much into what happened with the 2006 release. I mean, they sold pretty well didn't they? all things considered?
Post
#317611
Topic
State of the Trilogy/ annual SW depression
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/317611/action/topic#317611
Time
yea, but look at it this way

Sure, they might make Episode VII SOME DAY, but for now, the movies are finished. People, I would think, are starting to move on. When the dvd hit in '04, ROTS hadn't even been released yet!!! Now, with this blu-ray, I would think that what they'd do is release the movies individually in really nice editions. Because, after all, there isn't another movie on the way. The saga is finished, the '04 set was just a giant advertisement for Episode III. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on whether or not the Special Jedi Rocks Edition in 1080p will be enough to get people to buy it again.

Ok, what I'm really trying to say here is that Lucas doesn't have that much of a reason to not go back on everything he's been saying these years. Heck, he's already done that by releasing the OOT on dvd when he said it would never happen!

You say that most people regard the SE as the definitive Star Wars. There's a world of a difference between the OOT and the SE.

So, let me ask you guys, how would you put together an ultimate Star Wars blu-ray and/or dvd set (remember that we're debating content, not quality)

Just to keep things simple, let's just take Star Wars from 1977.

You have,

the '77 35mm and 70mm versions, with at least three different soundtracks between them
the '81 re-release with ANH at the front (are there any other differences in the actual picture in this particular release?)
the '97 SE

and that's pretty much it as far as theatrical releases go, unless I'm forgetting something. I'm not counting the 2004 version, since that hasn't been released theatrically yet (and when it does, it will probably have even more alterations than what we saw in 2004, heh).

So, I don't think they'd bother to include the 70mm version as it is PRETTY MUCH the same as the 35mm once you get past the laundry list of minor differences, most of which are soundtrack differences that they could include on an alternate track anyway. I think most of us would settle for a 2.35:1 1080p transfer of the 35mm version so far as the picture is concerned, though. You could seamlessly branch the '77 and '81 cuts together on one disc, but you would have to put the '97 version on another disc and the final version on yet another disc. So, I think that's why they probably wouldn't bother including the '97 version. It's a historical curiosity, and it would be nice if they did include it for that sake, but it's nowhere near a necessity when compared to OO Star Wars.
Post
#317578
Topic
State of the Trilogy/ annual SW depression
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/317578/action/topic#317578
Time
But what does that tell you about the state of the franchise? Star Trek was also pretty big right around the time of its 30th, and then look what happened, it was burned out within less than a decade.

I don't know if I have to say this in sign language, but I'm convinced that we'll get what we want when the next release hits. This damn argument between which version is better is just too obvious to everyone by now for Lucas to turn a blind eye to it. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he includes the '97 versions as well, their being the historically significant releases that started the debate in the first place.

The 2004 version is the one Lucas decided to put the money into, fine, so be it, it's not our decision after all.

The 2006 release was a shameless cash grab. It doesn't mean it's the death of the OOT. Once you remember that's it's all only on standard dvd (granted, non-anamorphic standard dvd), it doesn't become that hard to imagine us getting a blu-ray OOT. Because, as I've said before, HOW IN THE HELL ELSE IS HE GOING TO SELL US THE EXACT SAME THING ALL OVER AGAIN?! How many people even are there with blu-ray players that aren't PS3's? Actually, it begs the question of whether he'll even bother to release any of the versions of the movies on blu-ray AT ALL, especially judging by his comment from that interview a couple years ago, "What's the surest way to prevent piracy? Pay-per-view."

But, nah, I'm sure he'll release them anyway. It's only more money to be made, really, and pirating them will be hard anyway. But, as I said, a 1080p SE alone will not be enough of a selling point IMO.
Post
#317529
Topic
State of the Trilogy/ annual SW depression
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/317529/action/topic#317529
Time
zombie84 said:

Yes, the negative was deteriorating, and much of it had to be replaced with dupes from other sources, or reprinted. Digital technology hadn't yet advanced far enough, the 1997 SE was mostly an old-fashioned photo-chemical restoration. The entire film wasn't digitized because there was no such thing as DI's back then, they just recomposited whatever shots they need, printed them back onto film and then spliced them into the neg so that it could be completed photochemically.


Yea, I guess I should just stop bringing it up. People keep getting confused in regards to the '97 restoration.

Even if we have to settle for working from theatrical prints (presumably with cigarette burns every 20 minutes, but I'm assuming that could be taken care of somehow), it would be still look better than standard dvd, and it would definitely look better than the laserdisc ports we got.
Post
#317526
Topic
Robert Harris Godfather Restoration WHY cannot lucas restore the oot ?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/317526/action/topic#317526
Time
I was going over the wiki entry just now, and now I'm wondering if they won't wait until even later than the premiere of the live-action series to do the 3D re-releases. Apparently McCallum said that they're waiting until the technology is cheap enough to widely implement.

Then again, 2010 is a long ways away. If Cameron plans on having enough 3D theaters to release Avatar in by December of 2009, I would think Lucasfilm would use that as an opportunity to attach a trailer announcing "coming in 2010, the 3D re-releases of the Star Wars movies."

Obviously I wasn't thinking that we'd get the blu-ray until the movies hit theaters again. I only meant that the 3D-re-release-followed-by-a-blu-ray-release-a-few-months-later hopefully isn't more than another two or three years away. That's only really going on the pattern that these movies followed on dvd:

Close Encounters, 2001
Godfather, 2001
Star Wars Trilogy, 2004

Now we have:

Close Encounters, 2007
Godfather, hopefully by the end of this year
Star Wars (with everything we want): hopefully by the time the live-action series hits.

zombie84 said:

Lucas' response to this would be: I DID restore the trilogy, it costs millions of dollars and came out on DVD in 2004. Ugh.


Yea but that's the thing. We're not asking for him to spend millions of dollars. In fact, as it's been pointed out, there's a professional willing to do it for free!!!!

Look at what happened with Blade Runner. The final version is the one that got the 4K mastering and was cleaned up frame by frame to within an inch of its life. By comparison, the remastering they did on the older versions is nothing, BUT AT LEAST THEY REMASTERED THEM.

That's the truly messed up thing about this situation. All it would really cost Lucas at the end of the day is the added price of including an extra disc in the packaging. That's why I'm not TOTALLY putting it out of the realm of possibility that he'll give us the simple thing we're asking for. Because, as I've said, blu-ray isn't the same ballpark as dvd. If we're already getting The Godfather this year, and when we remember that Lucas only really held off on the OT on dvd because he wanted to wait until Episode III had been released (2001 was also the year that a Star Wars movie hit dvd for the first time), I can't imagine the next release being more than a couple years away.
Post
#317470
Topic
State of the Trilogy/ annual SW depression
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/317470/action/topic#317470
Time
zombie84 said:

The only reason the OOT was on DVD in 2006 was because it was already done.


That's exactly my point. What if he's just waiting until the blu-ray to put any sort of work whatsoever into remastering the OOT? Isn't that what Cameron's doing with The Abyss?

Lucas, at least so far as he's concerned, put all of the necessary work into restoring the OT back in '03/'04. True, it wouldn't necessarily take that kind of restoration all over again in order to achieve an acceptable level of quality for a 1080p master of the O-OT, but what you said is exactly my point, zombie. It was already done, so he just got THX to do whatever it needed and then slapped it on a dvd.

Erikstormtrooper said:

This will also save face for George, and he can claim that people are still gobbling up the SE.


Exactly

Isn't it in his best interest to have both?

Lucas isn't making money for other companies, he's making money for his own company.
Post
#317461
Topic
Originals: A New Preference
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/317461/action/topic#317461
Time
Yea, there's not much else to it.

Now that I've been able to watch both versions on the same format for almost two and a half years, I'd like to be watching them in the same quality. I'm not asking for something on the level of Lowry since I know it would never happen anyway ("ummm, didn't we restore most of the scenes we're seeing here just a few years ago?"), but I am asking for them to dig up those interpositives or WHATEVER their best film elements are of the OOT and transfer them to video.
Post
#317457
Topic
State of the Trilogy/ annual SW depression
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/317457/action/topic#317457
Time
The only possible excuse I could see LFL coming up with is "well, since we know that everyone on the planet is going to want to a buy a copy, we couldn't possibly mass produce the discs without it just being one movie, one disc."

But that's my whole point. Look at what happened. Yes, everyone went out and bought the '04 set, but people made it clear to LFL in various ways that they didn't necessarily want to be required to buy all three movies if they only wanted one. Certain people, ahem, also made it clear that they wanted the original versions on dvd. So, LFL took care of both in one swoop. No, it wasn't remastered, but it was a step in the right direction.

I don't see them repeating this mistake on the next go-around. Now, you all laugh and say "Lucas won't see it as a mistake, he'll see it as another easy double-dip." But I still contend that while blu-ray is nice and all that, it won't be what dvd was. Watching the movies in 1080p will not be enough to get us to buy it again, neither will throwing in a bunch of documentaries. Going the Blade Runner route and putting separate versions on separate discs for the OT and going the seamless branching route for TPM is the only way he'll get a lot of people to buy it again. He'll release them individually this time since, from the sound of things, it's going to be one massive six-film set and people aren't going to want to pay 200 dollars for it.

Worst case scenario, even if he doesn't include the original versions in the individual releases, he'll throw them exclusively in the 200 dollar set to get us to buy it. Am I setting myself up for disappointment?

EDIT: ok, upon further thought that second to last paragraph makes me seem a bit naive. Of course it'll sell well if they advertise it enough.

Back in '06 and '07, I was a little confused by why people kept referring to the marketing department at lfl and how they should all be fired. They should be fired for exploiting people's ignorance of how dvd video works? I thought that was their job in regards to the GOUT.

I think what people were basically trying to say is that they should be fired for not giving us what we obviously want. But I think it's obvious enough by now. You can't watch the GOUT on an hdtv without both a) zooming it in and b) repositioning it so you can read the Greedo and Jabba subtitles. But that's not the market LFL was going for, and if you get the movies in fullscreen that's only for the '04 version, you're still getting the '93 version letterboxed.

My point is, blu-ray is a totally different ballpark.