Fang Zei

nickyd47 said:

captainsolo said:

The only way the mouse will do any work on the OT is when they finally adopt 4kUHD. Otherwise they will continue to flog the bds endlessly.

Well, it’s FOX that has been flogging the discs

The last reissue of the discs (the individual steelbooks and the repackaging of “the complete saga”) was only a few months before the debut of the 4k UHD format, and there’s been a reissue every two years, which means we’d been due for another one later this year.

Just because it didn’t come up at Celebration doesn’t mean we’re out of the woods just yet. They could be saving a surprise announcement for May.

danny_boy said:

Fang Zei said:

danny_boy said:

Fang Zei said:

danny_boy said:

Fang Zei said:

doubleofive said:

My friend who is a projectionist talked to the projectionist at Celebration for us:

https://twitter.com/mumbles3k/status/853102458909978624

Spoke to the projectionist at #SWCO and confirmed that these are the same 2K DCPs used for the OT Blu-rays. No 4K (except for Rogue One).

I seriously question just how confidently the Orlando projectionist can actually state which master the dcp is derived from.

Again, let’s not forget Tack’s report on one of the roadshow screenings last summer. I’d be more interested in how the image actually looks in terms of color, contrast, grain, et cetera.

Also, the 2004 masters (the same ones used for the blu-ray) weren’t even done at full 2k resolution. They’re 1920x1080 hd. The Lowry guys were very specific about that during a press conference for the dvd way back in '04.

Anyway, I wonder if we can find out from an attendee in Orlando how the picture actually looks. Of course it would have to be someone who actually knows all the color timing quirks of the '04 master like we do, and I doubt there are many fans there who do.

Empire and Jedi are tonight.

I think the 2004 master was derived from the conventional 2048x1536 resolution scanning parameters (for scanning O-negs) in the early 2000s .This would also conform to the geometrical proportions of a 35mm anamorphic negative frame of film.

I honestly think that the 2004 article which stated that Star Wars was scanned at 1920 X 1080 was an editorial mistake.
You would be cropping out segments of the actual frame if you did scan at this resolution as well as introducing geometric distortions when optically(or digitally) stretching the frame back out to 2:35.

As far I am aware(correct me if i am wrong) the 2004 DVD/2011 Blu Ray features all the picture information(in terms of content-not resolution) when digitally re-scaled to the 2:35 aspect ratio(within the 16:9 HD frame).
This would indicate that it was indeed scanned at 2048 X 1536.

Yes, but I wasn’t talking about the scanning resolution. I was talking about the resolution of the final master Lowry delivered. The 1920x1080 number doesn’t come from an article, it came straight from the mouth of one of the Lowry guys at the press conference for the dvd back in '04. I had an audio recording of it sitting on my old computer I’ve since gotten rid of. Hamill, Kershner, and Jim Ward (President of Lucasfilm at that time) were also in attendence. There was a part where someone asks the Lowry guys if the new master is 2k and one of them responds “no, 1920x1080 HD,” which probably meant that the actual picture was 1920x817 because of the scope AR, with the black bars filling out the rest.

Maybe you are not remembering that Press exchange correctly.

An 8K,4k or 2k scan of a film negative(or 1st generation Interpositive) has to be re-scaled to 1920 X 1080 for the master of ANY Blu ray title.

In the case of the DVD from 2004, the 1920 x 1080 master(derived from the 2K scan)became the basis for that release.
And this would have been the case for any Standard Def DVD title from the early 2000s(or even now).
Many did not even get this luxury.
A lot of DVD transfers were generated from telecines of 35mm theatrical film prints(be they flat or anamorphic)…the same process used for Laserdisc,Selecta Vision, VHS,Beta and V2000 home video releases of the early 1980s.

The James Bond films(some of them) and Star Wars were among the first set of flicks to get the benefit of 1080p masters(that would subsequently be down rezzed to 480p) for DVD.

Which finally brings us back around to my original point, which was that the resolution Lowry finished their restoration at was 1920x1080 HD and not 2048x1080. Jim Ward called it a “digital negative” back in 2004, which might have been considered true at that time given the limits of digital projection technology in the cinema. But even then, I’m pretty sure they were already finishing new movies at actual 2k res (Oh Brother Where Art Thou, Lord of the Rings, etc) and even starting to finish some movies in 4k (Spider-Man 2, released in 2004, was the first 4k DI).

The DCP for Star Wars that would be projected in a commercial cinema must be either 2048 X 1080 or 2048 X 1536 as stipulated by the SMPTE.

I think there has a been a lot of confusion that has been disseminated(unintentionally or otherwise) over the years from forums such as these and elsewhere.

For commercial projection they would use the DCP(2048 X 1080).
For Home Video they would use the 1920 X 1080 master which is no different to any other hi-def(or standard def)title on the market.

According to the video engineer who goes by the name of Vidiot(from the Steve Hoffman forum) Star Wars was scanned at 2K using a Spirit 2k scanner. It was also color corrected at this resolution.
Those 2k Files were also manipulated by Lowry for the re-scale for home video(DVD & Blu Ray).
But the DCP had to be 2048 X 1080.

In 2007, for the 30th anniversary, they used a Christie Digital Micromirror Device™ 2K 3-chip DMD DLP Cinema™
(2048 x 1080 pixels) to project all 6 films.
AOTC and ROTS DCPs would be upscaled to 2K.
The OT would use the DCPs which were already at their native 2k resolution for front projection.

Maybe the Lowry guy was only talking about the hd master for dvd and eventual hdtv/blu-ray, but he definitely specified 1920x1080. I suppose it’s possible they finished their cleanup at actual 2k first and then made an hd video master from there, but that’s not what I remember Lowry guy saying.

Lucasfilm’s color-correction would have happened first, so that doesn’t really tell us anything about what exact res Lowry was working at.

Even if the dcp’s being used for these screenings are 2k, they still wouldn’t truly be 2k if they’re being upscaled from a 1920 source. As Wazzles pointed out, even AOTC and RotS had their cgi and color-timing done at 2k.

They’re at least acknowledging that the Special Edition was in fact a revised version of the movies as opposed to THE version. Acknowledging the beginning of the history behind the major changes to the films is actually a step in the direction we want to go.

danny_boy said:

Fang Zei said:

danny_boy said:

Fang Zei said:

doubleofive said:

My friend who is a projectionist talked to the projectionist at Celebration for us:

https://twitter.com/mumbles3k/status/853102458909978624

Spoke to the projectionist at #SWCO and confirmed that these are the same 2K DCPs used for the OT Blu-rays. No 4K (except for Rogue One).

I seriously question just how confidently the Orlando projectionist can actually state which master the dcp is derived from.

Again, let’s not forget Tack’s report on one of the roadshow screenings last summer. I’d be more interested in how the image actually looks in terms of color, contrast, grain, et cetera.

Also, the 2004 masters (the same ones used for the blu-ray) weren’t even done at full 2k resolution. They’re 1920x1080 hd. The Lowry guys were very specific about that during a press conference for the dvd way back in '04.

Anyway, I wonder if we can find out from an attendee in Orlando how the picture actually looks. Of course it would have to be someone who actually knows all the color timing quirks of the '04 master like we do, and I doubt there are many fans there who do.

Empire and Jedi are tonight.

I think the 2004 master was derived from the conventional 2048x1536 resolution scanning parameters (for scanning O-negs) in the early 2000s .This would also conform to the geometrical proportions of a 35mm anamorphic negative frame of film.

I honestly think that the 2004 article which stated that Star Wars was scanned at 1920 X 1080 was an editorial mistake.
You would be cropping out segments of the actual frame if you did scan at this resolution as well as introducing geometric distortions when optically(or digitally) stretching the frame back out to 2:35.

As far I am aware(correct me if i am wrong) the 2004 DVD/2011 Blu Ray features all the picture information(in terms of content-not resolution) when digitally re-scaled to the 2:35 aspect ratio(within the 16:9 HD frame).
This would indicate that it was indeed scanned at 2048 X 1536.

Yes, but I wasn’t talking about the scanning resolution. I was talking about the resolution of the final master Lowry delivered. The 1920x1080 number doesn’t come from an article, it came straight from the mouth of one of the Lowry guys at the press conference for the dvd back in '04. I had an audio recording of it sitting on my old computer I’ve since gotten rid of. Hamill, Kershner, and Jim Ward (President of Lucasfilm at that time) were also in attendence. There was a part where someone asks the Lowry guys if the new master is 2k and one of them responds “no, 1920x1080 HD,” which probably meant that the actual picture was 1920x817 because of the scope AR, with the black bars filling out the rest.

Maybe you are not remembering that Press exchange correctly.

An 8K,4k or 2k scan of a film negative(or 1st generation Interpositive) has to be re-scaled to 1920 X 1080 for the master of ANY Blu ray title.

In the case of the DVD from 2004, the 1920 x 1080 master(derived from the 2K scan)became the basis for that release.
And this would have been the case for any Standard Def DVD title from the early 2000s(or even now).
Many did not even get this luxury.
A lot of DVD transfers were generated from telecines of 35mm theatrical film prints(be they flat or anamorphic)…the same process used for Laserdisc,Selecta Vision, VHS,Beta and V2000 home video releases of the early 1980s.

The James Bond films(some of them) and Star Wars were among the first set of flicks to get the benefit of 1080p masters(that would subsequently be down rezzed to 480p) for DVD.

Which finally brings us back around to my original point, which was that the resolution Lowry finished their restoration at was 1920x1080 HD and not 2048x1080. Jim Ward called it a “digital negative” back in 2004, which might have been considered true at that time given the limits of digital projection technology in the cinema. But even then, I’m pretty sure they were already finishing new movies at actual 2k res (Oh Brother Where Art Thou, Lord of the Rings, etc) and even starting to finish some movies in 4k (Spider-Man 2, released in 2004, was the first 4k DI).

danny_boy said:

Fang Zei said:

doubleofive said:

My friend who is a projectionist talked to the projectionist at Celebration for us:

https://twitter.com/mumbles3k/status/853102458909978624

Spoke to the projectionist at #SWCO and confirmed that these are the same 2K DCPs used for the OT Blu-rays. No 4K (except for Rogue One).

I seriously question just how confidently the Orlando projectionist can actually state which master the dcp is derived from.

Again, let’s not forget Tack’s report on one of the roadshow screenings last summer. I’d be more interested in how the image actually looks in terms of color, contrast, grain, et cetera.

Also, the 2004 masters (the same ones used for the blu-ray) weren’t even done at full 2k resolution. They’re 1920x1080 hd. The Lowry guys were very specific about that during a press conference for the dvd way back in '04.

Anyway, I wonder if we can find out from an attendee in Orlando how the picture actually looks. Of course it would have to be someone who actually knows all the color timing quirks of the '04 master like we do, and I doubt there are many fans there who do.

Empire and Jedi are tonight.

I think the 2004 master was derived from the conventional 2048x1536 resolution scanning parameters (for scanning O-negs) in the early 2000s .This would also conform to the geometrical proportions of a 35mm anamorphic negative frame of film.

I honestly think that the 2004 article which stated that Star Wars was scanned at 1920 X 1080 was an editorial mistake.
You would be cropping out segments of the actual frame if you did scan at this resolution as well as introducing geometric distortions when optically(or digitally) stretching the frame back out to 2:35.

As far I am aware(correct me if i am wrong) the 2004 DVD/2011 Blu Ray features all the picture information(in terms of content-not resolution) when digitally re-scaled to the 2:35 aspect ratio(within the 16:9 HD frame).
This would indicate that it was indeed scanned at 2048 X 1536.

Yes, but I wasn’t talking about the scanning resolution. I was talking about the resolution of the final master Lowry delivered. The 1920x1080 number doesn’t come from an article, it came straight from the mouth of one of the Lowry guys at the press conference for the dvd back in '04. I had an audio recording of it sitting on my old computer I’ve since gotten rid of. Hamill, Kershner, and Jim Ward (President of Lucasfilm at that time) were also in attendence. There was a part where someone asks the Lowry guys if the new master is 2k and one of them responds “no, 1920x1080 HD,” which probably meant that the actual picture was 1920x817 because of the scope AR, with the black bars filling out the rest.

At least they finally stopped pretending.

doubleofive said:

My friend confirmed the 2011 changes.

That still doesn’t confirm that it wasn’t a 2k dcp from the new 4k master. Tack said last summer that the roadshow had all the same changes as the 2011 version but that everything else looked different in terms of color/contrast/grain.

SwissArmyTin said:

God, would the Blu-rays even hold up being projected in a theater?

From what we’ve heard of the marathon I-VI multiplex screenings the day before TFA was released, the lowry master most definitely doesn’t hold up when projected onto a large movie theater screen.

Mocata said:

The idea that single unique negative for a film exists that has been forever altered is ridiculous to begin with, but the suggestion that digital effects and alterations done were “permanent” is more so. Lucas and his BS was always this way. Maybe he even believes it, since he came out with this line with talking about THX-1138 a few years after, but y’know the guy is missing a few marbles.

The original version of THX-1138 really should be restored since George altered it so much with cgi. I wonder if he’ll have that one remastered in 4k as well. Lowry handled the existing transfer (the dvd was released in 2004 the very same week as the OT IIRC).

American Graffiti’s original version should be preserved if for no other reason than its historical significance.

Unfortunately, not enough people really remember THX enough to care about getting the original version (not the way people care about the unaltered Star Wars at any rate), and the alterations to Graffiti aren’t blatantly cgi-based so most people probably consider it “close enough” if they even know it’s been altered at all.

doubleofive said:

My friend who is a projectionist talked to the projectionist at Celebration for us:

https://twitter.com/mumbles3k/status/853102458909978624

Spoke to the projectionist at #SWCO and confirmed that these are the same 2K DCPs used for the OT Blu-rays. No 4K (except for Rogue One).

I seriously question just how confidently the Orlando projectionist can actually state which master the dcp is derived from.

Again, let’s not forget Tack’s report on one of the roadshow screenings last summer. I’d be more interested in how the image actually looks in terms of color, contrast, grain, et cetera.

Also, the 2004 masters (the same ones used for the blu-ray) weren’t even done at full 2k resolution. They’re 1920x1080 hd. The Lowry guys were very specific about that during a press conference for the dvd way back in '04.

Anyway, I wonder if we can find out from an attendee in Orlando how the picture actually looks. Of course it would have to be someone who actually knows all the color timing quirks of the '04 master like we do, and I doubt there are many fans there who do.

Empire and Jedi are tonight.

crissrudd4554 said:

The sad thing is if they are waiting til 2020 then they missed an opportunity to at least release the original ANH for the 40th anniversary. Waiting til 2020 isn’t gonna make a difference with that film.

They were never, ever going to release an unaltered restoration of ANH without doing the same for ESB and RotJ and releasing them all on the same day.

Alderaan said:

SwissArmyTin said:
The only reason you found the OP “ironic” is because they held a view contrary to yours, and you picked on them.

Your imaginary conversation skills are on display once again. I quoted Fang Zei and laughed at his comment. I didn’t even address the OP before you started in. In fact, I presume you are supposedly on this site out of an interest in preserving the original trilogy, and yet the moment a prequel troll made an aggressive comment towards me, you saw that as your cue to jump into another thread and try and take another shot at a person you dislike.

This is something that 4 or 5 of you do on a regular basis to several posters.

If there were a way to preserve an original 2002 dcp of AotC then obviously I’d be in favor of that, but there isn’t.

A 35mm print would be the best available reference for how this movie looked theatrically, hence my comment.

This is exactly why we need a 35mm preservation of AotC.

Yeah, I think even the people who liked certain things about the SE are sick of all the pointless alterations and would actually prefer the original versions.

That’s going to be an issue for Disney when they eventually release I-VI on 4k and the mostly older consumer base for the format decide they really don’t care to see Star Wars yet again, even in 4k with hdr, unless they can watch the original versions that way as well.

My theory has always been that both of those movies are from the early days of digital intermediate and for whatever reason translated horribly to their retimings on blu-ray a decade later.

To add to what crissrudd is saying, I feel like waiting another three years has other advantages for Lucasfilm aside from just the rights issue.

Some people are only just now getting around to buying the 2011 set. I honestly feel like we weren’t going to see a major reissue with actual new content until the time came to put the movies out on the next format. We’re only a year into 4k discs being a thing, and Star Wars has taken a long while to hit each new format.

To me, this is yet another sign pointing to 2020.

Density said:

DominicCobb said:
Well I suppose when you consider how incredibly massive the number of Star Wars fans there are they might be a minority, but yeah I’d say it’s still fairly sizable. Sure I doubt most are unaware of the alternatives and have no problem sucking up the SEs (though Harmy’s work has gained some decent notoriety through the web), but I’m sure a great many would be willing to fork over cash if the original versions were presented.

Oh I’m sure plenty of people would buy it. They would turn a profit. But when compared to all the other things they could focus on instead? It’s chump change. So they have to weigh the value of that change against:

• Pissing on George while he’s still alive, which I didn’t think was a problem but apparently might be after all now that they seem to have kissed and made up
• Not maximizing the profits from it due to the extra money they could make if they waited until they are the sole owners and distributors of all but ANH
• Distracting resources and marketing attention from their own new films

So if I had to predict? It will either come out around 2020 as a tie-in to the newly completed sequel trilogy, likely again treated as bonus material, or it won’t come out until George is pushing daisies.

Whatever the case, it’s pretty clear now that it’s not coming this year.

Well, I still wouldn’t completely rule out a release happening this year (The GOUT was announced in early/mid May for a September release, and the bd has been reissued every two years since 2011 which means we’re potentially due for another release of some kind this year). Hell, even after hearing that George was showing up I still didn’t rule out an announcement with him in the room! We’ve known for three whole years now that there’s been a 4k remaster of his preferred version, which to me means he literally has no reason to care anymore. John Landis’ story would seem to support this.

The only reasons I can think of are, as stated:

-apathy
-misplaced sense of loyalty to George from Kennedy and the people at Fox… even though George doesn’t care anymore
-Disney wanting to maximize their profits by waiting until 2020

That is simply how I see it. After 2020 they are out of excuses.

Okay, then I guess the only connection to TPM would be knowing his name is Palpatine. I knew that as well, but from the Essential Guide to Characters (unless the Glove of Darth Vader books had already brought that up but I can’t remember now if he’s actually referred to by name in that series).

Possessed said:

It was in the books that accompanied their releases. And so was the name Palpatine. I have the original novel that came out sometime in 77 and in the prologue it talks about
Palpatine (by name) being the emperor and Sith Lord, so if you read that you already knew who the emperor was in TPM

I’ve had in my possession for years now a used copy of what I’m fairly certain is the very first printing of the Star Wars novelization and I’ve never gotten around to actually reading it. Is Palpatine actually referred to as a Sith? I thought that word was only used in reference to Darth Vader.

towne32 said:

Swazzy said:

It’s astounding that a line about a sith Lord being sent by the emperor was never thrown back into any of the Special Editions.

That was my first thought as well. Due to the quality, it’s hard to tell if this is the actual dialogue from the movie (obviously, I don’t mean Vader), but most of the film was redubbed/ADR’ed, so I’m not sure. It’s possible that the line doesn’t exist in good enough form.

It also seems that much of the unused film had not been combed through until Gareth recently started hunting for things, so it’s possible this was under the radar for years?

Well, there was that user on the blu-ray.com forums who claimed Disney is currently in the process of scanning in every last piece of Star Wars related film material.

That may very well have been how those unused takes were brought to Edwards’ attention.

JawsTDS said:

So, are we allowed to go crazy over the upcoming TLJ panel / trailer here? Or should that stay in the spoiler thread?

This thread was started pretty much solely because of the OOT rumors. Anything TLJ-related should probably stay in that thread. I know many people don’t consider stuff shown in officially-releasd trailers to be spoilers, but some still do. It’s best to err on the side of caution.

suspiciouscoffee said:

Fang Zei said:

Alderaan said:

imperialscum said:

As I have already said, the simple thing is that OOT release is just not profitable enough for them to care. While it might bring millions, that is still a change compared to billions they are making with other stuff.

This isn’t the reason at all.

George Lucas is … still … the reason why we don’t have an official OOT. Disney could give it to us any time they want, but they have obviously told us all to **** off and keep paying for their shit movies.

I even heard the other day there are plans for a hiatus from making new movies.

I doubt it. Main “Saga” movies maybe (which I’d like, actually), but I bet they’ll keep making the EU “Story” movies if nothing else.

The slashfilm article definitely seemed to indicate a hiatus from the movies in general, not just the saga films.

Alderaan said:

imperialscum said:

As I have already said, the simple thing is that OOT release is just not profitable enough for them to care. While it might bring millions, that is still a change compared to billions they are making with other stuff.

This isn’t the reason at all.

George Lucas is … still … the reason why we don’t have an official OOT. Disney could give it to us any time they want, but they have obviously told us all to **** off and keep paying for their shit movies.

I do think it’s partially because they want to keep the attention focused solely on the new movies. Sure, they could give us what we want right now, but it would distract from the new stuff they’re selling. If it doesn’t happen in the next eight months during this long gap between the RO blu and the theatrical release of TLJ, I don’t see it happening next year either because of the Han Solo movie that’s coming out in May. Then IX comes out in May of 2019 (yes, that’s still the release date, not December, and the rumor that they’re going to start shooting this summer would seem to mean they’re serious).

Way too many signs point to 2020 for me to think otherwise. I even heard the other day there are plans for a hiatus from making new movies. What’s going to be frustrating is if there’s still another movie coming out after IX and they choose to wait longer than they need to (May of 2020) to release the OOT, simply out of not wanting to distract from whatever that new movie is.

joefavs said:

Has the ANH screening happened yet, or is that tomorrow? I’m curious as to whether they’ll finally unveil their new SE transfer. I believe they’re showing it back to back with Rogue One, and if they plan on just showing the Lowry again it’ll look extra terrible by comparison.

From what Tack reported last summer, the roadshow might have already been the grand unveiling.

ETA: Apparently they’re doing a back to back screening of Rogue One and ANH Friday night and then an ESB-RotJ-TFA triple feature on Saturday night.

Density said:

At this point I don’t even care anymore. I’ve resigned myself to the fact that we probably aren’t going to see anything until George kicks the bucket. And as annoyed with him as I am for what he did to this franchise, I don’t wish that on him. I’ll probably have kids of my own old enough to watch the series by the time the OUT comes out, and by then it will probably be some holographic 8K virtual whatever, forget about Blu-ray. That’s fine. I’m just glad this site exists so I’m not stuck with laserdisc transfers in the meantime.

I also can’t shake the feeling George has something to do with it. Even if the movies no longer legally belong to him, Disney and Fox are probably sticking to his vision out of some misplaced sense of loyalty, just because.