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Fang Zei

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Join date
14-Oct-2006
Last activity
20-Aug-2025
Posts
2,789

Post History

Post
#1075161
Topic
Question about the 2006 "GOUT" DVDs
Time

drfsupercenter said:

TV’s Frink said:

drfsupercenter said:

I’m looking to add the “limited edition” OT DVDs to my collection.

Don’t take this the wrong way, but…

Why?

Just download one of the many fine restoration projects here.

Because I’m a collector and I like having official releases. I do have the Despecialized Editions, but there’s something to be said about having the actual releases.

Speaking for myself, I wouldn’t have paid money for the GOUT in 2006, nevermind 2017.

You should probably just get your hands on Team Negative 1’s Silver Screen Edition of Star Wars '77 and the grindhouse releases of Empire and Jedi. The picture and sound are based off actual release prints.

Post
#1075096
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

baron_lando said:

Some kind of multi-version package is our best bet because it kills many birds with one stone. There is a ton of precedent that we can point to and say “hey these movies can have it and they aren’t as popular, why not SW?” (Blade Runner, Close Encounters, Exorcist etc.), it doesn’t fly in the face of the filmmakers’ wish by excluding their preferred versions, and it allows them to charge more which they love.
I think using BLADE RUNNER in particular as our gold standard is wise because the theatrical version in that set was easily achieved (and would be even easier for Star Wars now, scanning and cleaning scratches and dirt is cheaper and easier than it was in 2007). And everybody in home video knows Blade Runner, knows it has a cult following, but is less of a big deal than Star Wars. It’s a great shorthand to just say “hey do Blade Runner thing.”

All the more reason for them to include the '97 cuts. They could charge even more money for it.

Post
#1074957
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

Man, I got so sidetracked bringing up the '97/'04/'11 versions that I forgot all about how I want the theatrical prequels as well!

Oh, and the 120-minute Imax cut of AotC I never got to see, just for curiosity’s sake.

I know it will probably never happen and those versions will most likely be lost to history, but I could just as easily see LFL putting together multi-disc deluxe sets for each individual movie and charging a premium for them.

Post
#1074712
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

lovelikewinter said:

I too only want the OOT. I will never watch the Special Editions again and having to buy them would irritate me. Especially anything beyond an OOT/2011 version two pack.

Truth be told, I’d probably never watch them again either. It’s really more for the sake of having a historical record of the various revisions to the films, and also preserving them for the fans who might prefer one specific version over another. But I’d gladly settle for George’s preferred version from the new 4k master and not having to buy the same transfer that was used for the dvds I watched back in 2004.

Besides, preserving the other versions is what places like this are for anyway.

Post
#1074580
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

crissrudd4554 said:

The insignia change was done in '04. I don’t particularly see them doing a lot of branching options should they do a release. A release with the 2011 version on disc one and the theatrical on disc two would be fine enough for me though the 1997 version would be nice too but I don’t see it. There was only a few changes made in 2011 that honestly I just find it easier to say it’s the same as 2004 so including a branching option of the 2004 and 2011 versions I don’t think is necessary but that’s just me. I just wanna see the original restored regardless of which SE cut it’s put with.

I guess there weren’t too many changes made specifically for 2011 that really stand out. Vader’s “noooooo” is the only thing that really comes to mind, all the other changes were subtle enough that you could mistake them for '04 changes if you didn’t know better (blinking Wicket, Jabba’s door and the dug, etc). On the other hand, if you ditch the '04 version you lose all the permutations of Ben’s krayt dragon call from 77/97 to 04 to 2011.

Post
#1074575
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

JawsTDS said:

Fang Zei said:

Just an idea, but do we think it’s worth telling them exactly what we would want to see included in an ideal release?

Personally, I don’t think so. It’s one thing to ask that LucasFilm/Disney/Fox preserve the OUT. However, it’s another thing to have them release it with all the other cuts. Our main goal is to have the OUT preserved, not to dictate how its released. Stick to one goal.

SilverWook said:

I’m also considering a Terry Gilliam version. Short and to the point.

Dear Disney and Lucasfilm,

Will you ever release the original Star Wars trilogy in their original theatrical versions on Blu Ray? Yes or no? Please don’t leave us hanging. Thanks!

Sincerely,
The staff and members of Originaltrilogy.com

I’m honestly more in favor of this one. It’s short, sweet, and to the bloody point.

True, and as I said in my next post I fully acknowledge that even the inclusion of the 97 version is unlikely and it will probably just be the most recent version on one disc (possibly with some final changes) and the unaltered on a second disc.

Post
#1074572
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

Slavicuss said:

pittrek said:

Fang Zei said:

Just an idea, but do we think it’s worth telling them exactly what we would want to see included in an ideal release?

What I’m picturing would mirror the Blade Runner set rather closely, with the final version (plus a few “final” surprises if that rumor about Han shooting first again has any weight) on disc one and the unaltered version on disc three. For ANH, the '81 crawl should be branched in as an option on the unaltered disc.

The middle disc could be the '97 version (timed to how it actually looked in '97) with the '04 and '11 edits branched in. The '04/'11 changes are few and far enough between that I feel like they could be easily branched if the disc is primarily the '97 version. It would provide interesting historical context like the three different versions of the Krayt dragon call, Boba Fett’s voice, different Emperor hologram and cgi Jabba, and Luke’s scream in ESB.

I’d settle for just the '97 version’s inclusion without '04 and '11 but I really do think '97 should be there. It’s the version that started this whole debate in the first place and it was shown in theaters in a major re-release.

Disc 1 - 1977/1981 versions via seamless branching + trailers and TV spots
Disc 2 - 1997 SE + 1997 trailers and TV spots, plus all 1997 TV specials/promos
Disc 3 - 2004/2011 versions via seamless branching
Disc 4 - deleted and alternate scenes, Making of, Holiday special, maybe a new docu?

Disc 5 - The ‘lost cut’ work print, to truly mirror the BLADE RUNNER set.

Except in the example of Blade Runner the workprint actually was the first version shown to the public. Granted, it was only for test audiences before the wide release, but even then it’s more relevant to Blade Runner since its accidental discovery years later is what led to the director’s cut.

Fox didn’t meddle with Star Wars the way Perenchio and Yorkin did with Blade Runner. George hated the “lost cut” and fired his original editor. His only “enemy” was the technological limitations of the time, although he can’t really use that as an excuse for stuff like Greedo shooting first.

Post
#1074561
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

Ronster said:

I think disc 2 should be 1997 / 2004 / 2011.

Who is honestly going to miss the way 2004 and 2011 looks?

This is exactly what I was going to say in my post.

The 04/11 color timing doesn’t need to be preserved. We already know they did a fresh 4k scan of the o-neg, with is conformed to the '97 version already. They might as well include it. But the 97/04/11 preference thread got me thinking that some people might end up preferring '04 or '11 over all other versions, and since there really weren’t too many changes done specifically for 04 and 11 it shouldn’t be too complicated to branch the changes in. However, I say that knowing there are some very subtle differences they might miss. For example, which version did they digitally fix Piett and the other officer’s insignia so it was on the correct side in the flipped shot toward the end of ESB? Because I honestly couldn’t tell you now if that was 97 or 04. That’s why including the 97 version takes priority for me over branching in 04 and 11. I’d rather have them include 97 exactly as it was and lose 04/11 than have them screw something up trying to include the different versions.

Of course, I say all of this knowing full well there is little chance they will even include 97. That story about Han shooting first again may be complete BS,* so the 2011 version might really be the final version. They could have easily ported over those changes when they went back and rescanned the 97-conformed o-neg for this newer 4k master we’ve been hearing about. If we get the unaltereds on blu/UHD, it will probably have the original version and the final versions on separate discs and that’s it. They probably won’t bother branching in the '81 crawl on the unaltered disc for ANH either, and that wouldn’t be a deal breaker. The original version of the crawl from those first four years when Star Wars took the world by storm obviously takes preference over the one that says “Episode IV: A New Hope.”

*Still, I’m really, really curious just what exactly Devin Faraci’s unnamed source inside Lucasfilm saw to lead to such a rumor. It really wouldn’t surprise me if it turned out to be true. I’d say it’s still considered the most egregious change that’s been made to these movies. Even George seems to realize this if his wearing the “Han Shot First” shirt on the set of Crystal Skull means anything at all. Also, wasn’t that shot further tweaked in both 04 and 11? Maybe he finally gave up on it. I can’t see him reversing many other changes, not that he hasn’t done it before (Luke’s scream in ESB). But I could see him fixing some vfx mistakes that still linger in the 2011 version. Some pretty blatant errors still persist in the Endor space battle, and you can see through the Falcon as it pulls away from the Rebel cruiser at the end of ESB.

Post
#1074502
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

Just an idea, but do we think it’s worth telling them exactly what we would want to see included in an ideal release?

What I’m picturing would mirror the Blade Runner set rather closely, with the final version (plus a few “final” surprises if that rumor about Han shooting first again has any weight) on disc one and the unaltered version on disc three. For ANH, the '81 crawl should be branched in as an option on the unaltered disc.

The middle disc could be the '97 version (timed to how it actually looked in '97) with the '04 and '11 edits branched in. The '04/'11 changes are few and far enough between that I feel like they could be easily branched if the disc is primarily the '97 version. It would provide interesting historical context like the three different versions of the Krayt dragon call, Boba Fett’s voice, different Emperor hologram and cgi Jabba, and Luke’s scream in ESB.

I’d settle for just the '97 version’s inclusion without '04 and '11 but I really do think '97 should be there. It’s the version that started this whole debate in the first place and it was shown in theaters in a major re-release.

Post
#1074481
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

crissrudd4554 said:

JawsTDS said:

crissrudd4554 said:

It’s been pointed out on numerous occasions that it appears that the general public does not care one way or another about the changes. This may be true but I honestly don’t understand how this affects the chances of a future OUT release.

If they don’t care about the changes, then what’s the point of even reverting them? That costs money.

An OUT restoration is gonna sell better than a mere restored version of the same print of the SEs. It’s already a general consensus that people are fine with the BDs as is. If Disney/Lucasfilm intends to keep the market open to those films they’re gonna have to do more than simply restore the same SE.

This is why I’m convinced we’ll see an official OOT restoration when the time comes for a UHD release at the absolute latest. Not as many fans will pay for the SE yet again just so they can watch it at a higher resolution and with HDR. Lucasfilm will need to incentivize it a little, and what better time to do an all-versions set than the 4k release?

They could do an unaltered release on regular blu in the meantime, maybe even package it with a new transfer of the SE from the RMW 4k master instead of recycling the 2011 discs (which still use the 2004 master) yet again. But I feel like they’re not going to do that because they know many who’d buy it probably wouldn’t buy it again in a few years on 4k. Plus they’d have to share more of the profits with Fox whereas I-VI probably won’t hit 4k until 2020 at the earliest anyway. Better to wait and use the OOT to incentivize a UHD release.

They could still put it out on regular blu the same day, for those people who really don’t plan on ever upgrading beyond regular blu. Kind of like how the Blade Runner set was released on both dvd and the hd formats on the same day in 2007. Ditto for Close Encounters that same year with dvd and blu-ray.

Post
#1074309
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

Ronster said:

There could be genuine fear of a screw up that is all I am saying and it’s better to leave alone that is the vibe I get when in reality it would be better to try than to do nothing.

and you also need Mr.Lucus consent also.

It is possible to restore the film to its 100% unaltered form. There’s really no reason we should have to settle for “close enough,” and it would kinda defy the whole point anyway if it’s not the true original version. LFL surely realizes this well enough to not pull that kind of crap. Might that mean forgoing the Original Master Negative since it would risk the accidental inclusion of alterations from 97? Maybe, but there might be a foolproof way of using as much of the master negative as possible without that happening.

Post
#1073982
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

What Alderaan said.

I don’t have many other suggestions.

Stating who we are and the site’s original purpose of getting the unaltered’s released on dvd, and why that’s no longer enough, is indeed a good idea.

Maybe something to the effect of “we speak not only for ourselves, but for the many other fans around the world who would love to see the original versions restored.”

We might even want to appeal to their sense of responsibility over owning a piece of our cultural history. Film materials do eventually deteriorate. Just look at what happened with John Wayne’s The Alamo. Saving Star Wars, as zombie named his site, is ultimately what this is all about.

Oh, and I still think it’s worth saying “all versions” and not “both.” Even if we’re not going into detail about it in this letter (and we probably shouldn’t, it risks muddying the issue), saying “all” at least subtly reminds them that the '97 version never made it past laserdisc and that the '04 edit is stuck on dvd. Maybe a quick mention of how these movies have now been revised multiple times and that every fan has their prefered version. The “movie we grew up with” might be '77 for one person, '97 for another and '04 for someone else.

Post
#1073852
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

SilverWook said:

Fang Zei said:

Z6PO said:

Fang Zei said:

The exploitation of our nostalgia to sell the new movies and shows is a valid criticism. Touché, SilverWook.

But for me it goes even deeper. The Exorcist and Apocalypse Now were both revised and yet we can still view all versions in modern quality. Neither “Episode IV: A New Hope” nor its 1997 special edition won six academy awards in 1978, Star Wars did.

All versions of Close encounters of the third kind, all versions of Blade Runner… (and what about THX1138? I know it’s not Lucasfilm, but still…)

I’ve brought up CE3K/BR ad nauseum and those other examples just popped into my head.

I’d love it if Warner restored the '71 and '77 versions of THX-1138. Back when the dvd came out in 2004 my roommate picked up the single-disc sku out of curiosity (y’know, the one that had much crazier cover art for some reason?) and was watching it on his computer with headphones. I remember him saying that the cgi wasn’t nearly as jarring in this as it was in Star Wars. So yeah, anecdotal evidence and all, but the cgi being “not as jarring” kinda hurts the chances that anyone would care to see the original version. Not being nearly as well known a movie as American Graffiti is another thing going against it. Graffiti, meanwhile, hasn’t been extensively altered with cgi, so most people probably don’t know it’s not the same version that came out in '73.

Star Wars fulfills both criteria. It’s insanely well known and has been extensively/obviously altered.

Has your friend ever seen the original version of THX? The CGI is jarring as hell to me. 😉

I don’t think he had ever actually seen it before, no. To be fair though, neither had I. Not really, anyway. I think the most I’d seen of THX was one scene late at night on cable back in the 90’s, panned and scanned. For that matter I never even really heard it referenced outside of the connection to George’s company. My uncle randomly asked me back in the mid 90’s if I’d ever seen it (he just called it “THX” of course)* and I also remember seeing a vhs of it on the shelf at an fye or similar type of store around that same time.

Actually, now that I think about it, I did see that Star Wars fan film thing Kevin Smith hosted on Sci-Fi circa 99/2000 where they played the original short film Electronic Labyrinth and talked about how Coppola decided to produce it as a feature.

But this story with my roommate is an interesting example of how, even if you know a film has been altered, not having seen the original version beforehand can provide a totally different experience. How many people now look at the post-97 versions of Star Wars that way?

*Which makes me wonder, was it a more well-known movie than I’m thinking it was? Hearing Billy Dee Williams talk at Celebration Orlando about how he’d known who George was ever since seeing THX-1138 genuinely surprised me.

Post
#1073805
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

Z6PO said:

Fang Zei said:

The exploitation of our nostalgia to sell the new movies and shows is a valid criticism. Touché, SilverWook.

But for me it goes even deeper. The Exorcist and Apocalypse Now were both revised and yet we can still view all versions in modern quality. Neither “Episode IV: A New Hope” nor its 1997 special edition won six academy awards in 1978, Star Wars did.

All versions of Close encounters of the third kind, all versions of Blade Runner… (and what about THX1138? I know it’s not Lucasfilm, but still…)

I’ve brought up CE3K/BR ad nauseum and those other examples just popped into my head.

I’d love it if Warner restored the '71 and '77 versions of THX-1138. Back when the dvd came out in 2004 my roommate picked up the single-disc sku out of curiosity (y’know, the one that had much crazier cover art for some reason?) and was watching it on his computer with headphones. I remember him saying that the cgi wasn’t nearly as jarring in this as it was in Star Wars. So yeah, anecdotal evidence and all, but the cgi being “not as jarring” kinda hurts the chances that anyone would care to see the original version. Not being nearly as well known a movie as American Graffiti is another thing going against it. Graffiti, meanwhile, hasn’t been extensively altered with cgi, so most people probably don’t know it’s not the same version that came out in '73.

Star Wars fulfills both criteria. It’s insanely well known and has been extensively/obviously altered.

Post
#1073739
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

The exploitation of our nostalgia to sell the new movies and shows is a valid criticism. Touché, SilverWook.

But for me it goes even deeper. The Exorcist and Apocalypse Now were both revised and yet we can still view all versions in modern quality. Neither “Episode IV: A New Hope” nor its 1997 special edition won six academy awards in 1978, Star Wars did.

Post
#1073675
Topic
4K restoration on Star Wars
Time

A few quick thoughts before I go to sleep:

We should avoid saying things like “the version we grew up with.” It starts everything off on the wrong foot when we make it about nostalgia. The OOT should be preserved because of its cultural importance, not because us older fans happen to have fond memories of it. Younger fans, after all, most likely grew up with some form of the SE and don’t have the same attachment to the unaltereds as we do.

Some of that stuff is great (the “shooting imaginary TIE fighters” part really got me, so bravo!), but it’s stuff like the '77 film becoming a phenomenon that we need to focus on. The fact that Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back have been in the National Film Registry since 1989 (the registry’s inaugural year) and 2010 respectively yet still can’t be viewed in modern quality might be worth mentioning as well.

I would also simply change “both versions” to “all versions.” If they can include five versions of Blade Runner, they can do the same for each of the OT films. I turn 32 next month and first saw the movies when I was 6 or 7, so I’ve got a very clear memory of a time before even the 1995 vhs release. Not only was the version I grew up with never released in anything better than 1993 quality, the version I actually did see on the big screen was never properly preserved on later formats either!