Dunedain

dark_jedi: Will these be released as dual-layer DVD's to allow for maximum bit-rates for the video and soundtracks?

If you are short on DL DVD-R's to test the final results, I'm sure some fellows on the forum could help with that. Well worth it so these can be mastered from the uncompressed source files for playing in a DVD player at the highest possible quality. :)

Sounds great. :) The only possible problem is that this then requires having multiple copies of the same sets of disks. But if they can be gotten, that will be really cool, since any detail missing from one disk (either due to natural slight variations when making an analog disk, or due to any minuscule deterioration of a particular disk) will likely be captured on one or both of the other 2 disks. :)

Yes, that wouldn't be the first time that the 2004 even-more-SE DVD set have been criticized for having bass that is out of proportion to the event, at times. For example, someone pointed out that when R2-D2 falls over in Star Wars on Tatooine, after the jawas hit him with that electrical stunning device, for some reason in the 2004 DVD the bass is way overdone. I assume such things were noticed in your new corrected soundtracks and replaced with the 1997 SE LFE in places like that? :)

Aleksbmw: Will you be doing captures of 2 or 3 physical disks of each movie from the same collections (same release, but multiples of the same disks for each movie), like they were with the X0 Project, so that any detail not captured (or not available) on one disk will be captured from the other same disk/s and then combined to create the highest level of picture detail possible?

They used some software called black magic, I think, to do this with the X0 Project. Not sure if there is another program that can do the same thing. Someone here might know.

So, your Star Wars 70mm stereo restoration and Star Wars 5.1 soundtracks, as well as your just-finished The Empire Strikes Back 5.1 soundtrack, will all be featured on dark_jedi's upcoming release of his new v3 dual-layer DVD's of both of those movies?

Any idea when Return of the Jedi will be ready (I think you mentioned wanting to double check it to make sure the bass from the 1997 SE laserdisk LFE channel that was being added to the 1993 laserdisk soundtrack to restore the bass close to what it was like in theaters was as correct sounding as possible)? :)

Thanks for all your efforts, hairy_hen. It's going to be great to be able to see the Star Wars trilogy in the best picture quality yet achieved for home video, and having that combined with having the soundtracks restored as close as possible to what the movies sounded like in theaters before the 1997 SE changes were made. :)

Did you encode these at 448k from the uncompressed master .wav file? :)

hairy_hen: As per your post on page 19, I take it the 1993 Definitive Collection laserdisk set you are using as your main source for The Empire Strikes 5.1 soundtrack does have the full 96db dynamic range of laserdisk and was not taken from a VHS soundtrack source, as is suspected of the 2006 official DVD set?

By the way, that would indeed help to explain why the GOUT soundtracks don't sound as clean and powerful as the laserdisk soundtracks do (plus the fact that the bit-rates aren't high enough on the DVD's).

I guess this just goes to confirm that the laserdisk soundtracks are the best soundtracks released for home video in terms of their overall quality. :)

Probably better to just leave the soundtracks alone, Star Wars fans can easily turn their receivers' master volume controls up or down to whatever volume they like for each soundtrack. :)

hairy_hen: Glad to hear there will be fewer music edits in The Empire Strikes Back 5.1 soundtrack, which means it will be closer to the 70mm theatrical soundtrack. :)

Yeah, I suppose so, but I imagine it's hard to know precisely what sounds were sent to the other channels and at what volumes at all times from even a recording made in a theater. So the 70mm stereo version is a more conservative approach, since no judgment calls had to be made on what was correct and what wasn't. Just remove the changes placed in the DC laserdisk soundtrack with the unaltered soundtrack from the previous laserdisk set and you're done. It's nice to have the option for both. :)

Yeah, I just mean that the "70mm stereo" Star Wars soundtrack version down-mixed by Lucasfilm for the Definitive Collection laserdisk set (and with the changes that were made just for the DC removed by hairy_hen and the original unaltered soundtrack put back in those places) would be the overall best quality and most accurate stereo soundtrack version of the real multi-channel Star Wars theatrical soundtrack you could have for Star Wars on DVD (at least from the sources we currently have available). :)

hairy_hen: Will you also make available the 5.1 soundtrack versions of The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi without any music alterations/edits, for a "5.1 purist soundtracks" option (i.e., as close to what the 6 channel 70mm theatrical soundtracks would sound like as possible)? :)

What is the source for these theatrical 2.0 stereo soundtracks for each movie?

I'm surprised hairy_hen's restored theatrical 70mm stereo soundtrack for Star Wars might not be included. Since this would be the 70mm theatrical soundtrack down-mixed to stereo by Lucasfilm, with the unneeded few changes that were added to the 1993 DC soundtrack having been removed and those places in the soundtrack being restored as it was before the DC. And since the source for almost all the restored 70mm stereo soundtrack is the excellent 1993 DC, the sound quality would be very high. Making it the ultimate recreation in stereo form of the real Star Wars 70mm theatrical soundtrack. :)

Naturally, there is only so much space available on the dual-layer DVD, so everything can't be included with good bit-rates (essential for sound quality).

Hopefully the DVD audio and video tech experts here on the forum will make available dark_jedi's great-looking restored video with various soundtrack options at high bit-rates that couldn't all be fit on the initial DVD version. :)

Ah, I see. Well, in that case, I certainly hope the 5.1 soundtracks for The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi will also be made available without the music changes. So that we have the option to have the 5.1 version (with LFE from the 1997 SE) of the 1993 Definitive Collection laserdisk soundtracks without any music alterations. :)

There are no music changes in the 5.1 soundtrack for Star Wars, correct?

I take it dark_jedi will have the unaltered 1993 DC laserdisk stereo soundtracks on the DVD with his latest restored videos for The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi?

In regards to the 2.0 Star Wars trilogy soundtracks, in the case of The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, perhaps 70mm stereo restoration wasn't the best phrase to use. I just meant leaving the music, or lack thereof, as it is in the 1993 DC laserdisk soundtracks (and presumably how it was in the 70mm theatrical soundtracks, as well), the various musical transitions and so on.

Is that the case with the stereo soundtracks for The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, no music changes/additions?

While I lean strongly toward being a purist in all things Star Wars, if the alterations a very few in number and very minor (short and subtle) and are done in a completely seamless way, then I can go with it for the 5.1 soundtrack. Although it would be nice to also have a 5.1 soundtrack option available for use with restored DC laserdisk/2006 GOUT video projects that leaves the music just as it was when the Star Wars trilogy was shown in theaters. For completist's sake. :)

I take it the theatrical 70mm stereo restored soundtracks for Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi all have the original 70mm soundtrack music just as it was in theaters?

Not sure what livserge is referring to. Was there some music in that scene in the 70mm theatrical soundtrack of Return of the Jedi that was removed for some reason in the 1993 Definitive Collection laserdisk soundtrack, but hairy_hen has now restored it as it was in theaters using a previous laserdisk soundtrack?

hairy_hen: Thanks very much for the detailed reply to my questions. :)

Sounds like the 70mm stereo mix restoration is about as close as it can be to being just that, the 70mm theatrical soundtrack down-mixed to stereo, with nothing else added (DC changes removed). In this case, that means 99% (or whatever the number is) DC soundtrack.

Too bad about the 1997 SE laserdisk 5.1 soundtrack. They had a chance to bring the 70mm theatrical soundtrack to laserdisk in a rather hi-fi way (have to love PCM) and they didn't do it. Plus, from your description, they also introduced problems that weren't there in the theatrical soundtrack (reminds one of lots of things in the SE that they never should have done). I've always like the 1993 Definitve Collection soundtrack in terms of it's overall quality, smoothness and power, and apparently your examination of it compared to the 97 SE bears this out. Considering there is no separate LFE channel, it's really quite impressive. :) Plus, as you said, it's much closer to the real 70mm soundtrack (tinny sound introduced in the 97 SE is definitely something we don't want with non-SE video). And after seeing the reasons behind it, I agree completely with using the DC soundtrack as the main source for the 70mm 5.1 soundtrack recreation. :)

Also, I'm glad to see that you were so careful to check all available Star Wars soundtracks and personal reports when deciding what the most correct level should be for the bass in the LFE channel in various scenes. Since the goal is not so much to make it sound subjectively "better", but rather to restore the bass level to be as accurate to how it was in theaters as possible. Which, of course, also makes it sound better, since it was powerful to begin with. :)

Were you able to totally eliminate those phase cancellation issues that you mentioned? Were you able to remove the added-in LFE related to the CGI stuff added to the SE video (that is obviously not present in the GOUT video being used) and still keep it seamless (by maybe using bass from the 93 DC to make the sounds and SPL levels correct for those parts of those scenes)?

I noticed you mentioned that Return of the Jedi is apparently already done. Is this because you've already done the 70mm stereo and 5.1 restoration mixes for it about as well as it can be done (i.e., to the standard of the recently finished Star Wars)? Was Return of the Jedi done first because it was easier to restore?

I agree. I think everyone here appreciates dark_jedi's efforts in putting together what looks to be the best restoration of the 2006 unaltered Star Wars trilogy DVD set ever done. :)

And also a big thanks to all the others that have helped out with the project. :)

zombie84: I had assumed that once hairy_hen finishes up his work on the Star Wars trilogy 70mm stereo and 5.1 soundtracks that all the various soundtracks will be readily available at that point in the highest possible quality (lossless PCM capture from laserdisk, etc.) for download. And that those then can be used if someone wants to use dark_jedi's restored/corrected video (which is looking great :) ) and combine that with just one or two high bit-rate versions of the soundtracks.

dark_jedi: Technical question. It's my understanding that while the 1993 Definitive Collection laserdisk set's colors generally look great and are pretty accurate to the original unaltered Star Wars trilogy colors (and the 2006 DVD set comes from the DC), there is a bit of a pinkish tint in at least some scenes that was not there when Star Wars was shown in theaters. 1: Is that correct (the pinkish tint problem exists in the DC and GOUT)? 2: Are you color-correcting that pinkish tint, or is this new v3 of your restored video focusing on optimum grain reduction (while minimizing negative side-effects, like loss of detail) and anti-aliasing?

Also, will you be including hairy_hen's 70mm stereo and 5.1 soundtracks for the whole trilogy (not sure if The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi are ready yet)?

Thanks for any info. :)

hairy_hen: Thanks for the info. :) Since the 93 Definitive Collection laserdisk soundtrack was derived from the real theatrical 70mm soundtrack, plus a few additional effects added, it makes sense to go to a previous theatrical stereo soundtrack (since there's currently no way to access the 70mm soundtrack) and replace those few spots where there were added sounds. And so 70mm "stereo soundtrack" is a good descriptive name for it, since that's what it is, the theatrical 70mm soundtrack down-mixed into stereo form by Lucasfilm for laserdisk.

What is the source for the 35mm stereo soundtrack, a laserdisk set released before the Definitive Collection came out?

In regards to the 1997 SE 5.1 laserdisk soundtrack. One would think that Lucasfilm would have made a more direct transfer of the 70mm theatrical soundtrack this time, since they had 5.1 channels to work with, instead of only 2 in the Definitive Collection. And other than alterations made specifically for the SE, the SE soundtrack should be very close to the 70mm theatrical soundtrack. And since it has discrete channels for all this, it should make for a very nice DD 5.1 soundtrack on DVD. So why not use the 1997 SE as the main source for a recreation of the original 70mm theatrical soundtrack and just replace portions of it with either the 93 DC soundtrack or the 35mm stereo soundtrack where needed to get rid of the 93 DC and 1997 SE soundtrack changes?

Is the .1 LFE channel in the 1997 SE laserdisk set pretty close to what the bass channels in the 70mm theatrical soundtrack sounded like, based on available accounts, did you have to change it much to be more accurate to the 70mm theatrical version?

dark_jedi: As was mentioned earlier, space probably will be an issue because of the various soundtracks, so that has to be considered. I'm sure you'll make the bit-rates as high as possible to fill the disk to the limit, so no problem. :)

Ah, I had assumed that the 448k bit-rate was on a per-channel basis, thus it would be the same with 2.0 vs 5.1 (just with less channels). But *if* 448k is the total combined bit-rate for all channels of a DD 5.1 soundtrack, then I agree that it's not necessary for a 2.0 soundtrack, although it would be nice.

If there were only one 2.0 soundtrack being included and nothing else, then I'd say you might as well crank it to 448k and go for max quality, since there's room to spare, but since this DVD will include a few soundtrack options, then space might be an issue. Bear in mind that when this is played on a quality home theater system (as many Star Wars fans will no doubt do), you really want a hi-fi soundtrack, as compression artifacts/limitations become noticeable on transparent audio systems, it makes the soundtrack sound tinny. Also, since these PCM soundtracks are so nice to begin with, you want to capture and preserve that great quality. So I think it's best to aim for the high end of that and go with 320k for the 2.0 soundtracks. Unless, what with the other included soundtracks, it absolutely will not fit on a dual-layer DVD disk. In which case, go for 256k.

Any word at all would be welcome. :)

It's ok to have several different soundtrack options available, as long as it doesn't hurt the picture quality. :) If the foreign language tracks are removed and every inch of space on a dual-layer DVD is used, then there should be enough room for a few soundtrack options, while maintaining picture quality.

This 70mm stereo soundtrack sounds interesting, in that it's apparently just like the 93 Definitive Collection laserdisk soundtrack, but with no added sound effects. So it's an authentic theatrical soundtrack? What source was used to get this 70mm stereo soundtrack, is it complete? Does it sound as good as the Definitive Collection does (in terms of overall quality)?

The nice thing about the soundtracks from the Star Wars laserdisks is that they are good PCM tracks, not heavily compressed like you often see on DVD's. So the original uncompressed PCM soundtracks can then be compressed into 448k DD 2.0 soundtracks, for the best audio quality you can get on DVD.

Any news would be of great interest. :)

Yeah, it would be great to hear any details of how it's going. This super charged Laserdisk player should produce excellent Star Wars Laserdisk captures! :)

Ripplin said:

Dunedain said:

Looks ok overall. I'm glad to see the light gray / dark gray / blue colors have been kept, as they have always looked great. :) But the forum subject categories ( "Star Wars Fan Edits and Preservation Efforts", etc. ), where you can see all the thread topics, look cluttered with all those avatars stuck on the left side, it would look a lot neater and cleaner if avatars were left inside threads only.

I'm glad the colors are the same too. Still looks good and everything is easy to read. :) And don't forget that Jay mentioned he'll be adding the ability to turn avatars on and off separately for the topics and thread pages.