DrDre

yhwx said:

It’s amazing how people have selective amnesia. Yes, Luke did throw away his saber in ROTJ, but a few seconds before, he was about to kill Vader. And a few minutes before that, he’s prepared to “strike down” the Emperor, only to have his faithful apprentice intercept the attack.

I would call that a character arc. These things didn’t happen in a random order. Luke get’s goaded into using force, first by Palps, then by Vader to the point of almost killing Vader. Luke realizes he’s about to follow in his father footsteps, and composes himself, tossing away his lightsaber. He’s learned a valuable lesson, and passed the test. A test he then again fails in TLJ.

This invasion of privacy stuff is nonsense. Luke isn’t the NSA. Was it an “invasion of privacy” when Vader mind proved Luke in ROTJ?

Eh, yeah, Vader is the villain. Either way, Luke was fully awake and aware at that point in time, unlike Ben Solo.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Absolutely the scariest thing. Obviously I’m not talking about the immediate threat, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that Kylo brought Luke more pain than Vader (I’m talking emotionally here).

I disagree. Vader in the end of TESB destroyed everything Luke believed in and everything in Luke’s world. He had possibly killed his best friend, told him that his dad was not a hero but a monster, made him see his master were liars, destroyed his base at the beginning of the movie, killed several of his friends… and Luke was a young, immature man (if you compare to what he should’ve been in TLJ).

So I highly doubt that the possible future he saw was worse than this. As selfless as anyone may be, we are always biased towards ourselves.

There’s a big difference between being 20 years old and falling on your ass and learning your dad’s a failure and being 50 years old and facing the possibility that you’re a failure and your life’s work has been meaningless.

yeah, that is what i was getting at with my previous post.

• first failure is hard, but he didn’t actually know his dad, and he was still young and in my mind, unwilling to accept the truth of his dad’s evilness, so he kinda muddled through with the stubborness of youth.
• second failure, brought back the first (which he probably didn’t think of a failure before, because he had won vader over right?), and amplified it, added extra layers of failure. People who think they are right all of the time, fail HARD.

Yes, but here’s the problem. Ben hadn’t really done anything by that point, so there was no reason to assume Luke would not continue to believe he could turn the tide. I can sort of accept your reasoning if Ben had crossed over to the dark side in both thought and action, but just the prospect should not be enough, considering Luke’s experiences IMO.

Yeah he hadn’t done anything yet, but Luke’s vision gave way to a momentary temptation that faded away as soon as it came to him. So you’re basically saying Luke should be above temptation which I find ridiculous.

I’m not saying Luke should be above temptation, I’m saying:

1. I needed more setup for the moment where Luke enters Ben’s sleeping quarters, and probes his mind. This setup is required to provide context for Luke’s state of mind, and to be able to determine why Luke considered Kylo a huge threat at that point in time.
2. I needed Luke to to be emotionally compromised in some way, to be momentarily tempted to use force. In the throne room it took the Emperor quite some time to goad Luke into going for his lightsaber, and that involved real pain and suffering, not just feelings.

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

Lol I’m glad Dre left the thread. :p

Who’s Dre?

I don’t get it.

It’s a joke. I’m not here.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

From what we see and are told in the movie, apparently Luke didn’t even try to talk to Ben before going to him in his hut. And that’s just insane for me. We’re talking about the guy who surrendered himself to the Empire to have some alone time with Hitler to try to convince him that he’s actually a good guy.

Luke said that he had sensed some of this during their training, but had to be sure. It really doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that you ask someone about as a primary way of discovering the truth.

I respectfully disagree. To me, trust is the basis for any relationship, and not just romantic ones. So yes, Luke should’ve talked to Ben before anything. Talking to him would also trigger several of Ben’s inner thoughts and feelings that Luke would be able to sense, given the subject of their discussion, and because Ben at that point probably didn’t know how to close his mind from a Jedi master.

That assumption that i bolded is yours. i think the opposite, and I think there is enough in the movie to point to Ben having already been under some level of tutelage from Snoke at that point, that yeah, he probably could close his mind to a Jedi master. The other reason to believe that he could close his mind, is because Luke choose to search his feelings while he was asleep, with the obvious to discern reason that he couldn’t do it as well when he wasn’t asleep.

For one Luke already told us, he sensed the darkness, but if that were the case, that Ben was closing his mind, the film should have told us. It’s the basis for good story telling IMO. Just insert a line, where Luke sensed Ben was purposefully hiding his true feelings from Luke, something he shouldn’t be able to do.

Why shouldn’t he be able to do that? Everyday people hide their feelings all the time, not hard to imagine someone strong in the force can do the same but better.

Perhaps, but Ben’s just a student, and Luke a Jedi Master. We can hardly expect him to be able to cover his tracks like Palpatine in the PT. I mean, the guy carries his heart on his sleeve. He doesn’t seem to be able to hide any of his feelings from anyone except Snoke :p.

TV’s Frink said:

Lol I’m glad Dre left the thread. :p

Who’s Dre?

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

From what we see and are told in the movie, apparently Luke didn’t even try to talk to Ben before going to him in his hut. And that’s just insane for me. We’re talking about the guy who surrendered himself to the Empire to have some alone time with Hitler to try to convince him that he’s actually a good guy.

Luke said that he had sensed some of this during their training, but had to be sure. It really doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that you ask someone about as a primary way of discovering the truth.

I respectfully disagree. To me, trust is the basis for any relationship, and not just romantic ones. So yes, Luke should’ve talked to Ben before anything. Talking to him would also trigger several of Ben’s inner thoughts and feelings that Luke would be able to sense, given the subject of their discussion, and because Ben at that point probably didn’t know how to close his mind from a Jedi master.

That assumption that i bolded is yours. i think the opposite, and I think there is enough in the movie to point to Ben having already been under some level of tutelage from Snoke at that point, that yeah, he probably could close his mind to a Jedi master. The other reason to believe that he could close his mind, is because Luke choose to search his feelings while he was asleep, with the obvious to discern reason that he couldn’t do it as well when he wasn’t asleep.

For one Luke already told us, he sensed the darkness, but if that were the case, that Ben was closing his mind, the film should have told us. It’s the basis for good story telling IMO. Just insert a line, where Luke sensed Ben was purposefully hiding his true feelings from Luke, something he shouldn’t be able to do.

Dre i am honestly confused. luke did give us that line, you just said it. so i don’t get what you are saying…

I don’t believe Luke ever stated Ben was hiding something. Just that he had senses the darkness growing, and he had to make sure or something like that.

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Absolutely the scariest thing. Obviously I’m not talking about the immediate threat, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that Kylo brought Luke more pain than Vader (I’m talking emotionally here).

I disagree. Vader in the end of TESB destroyed everything Luke believed in and everything in Luke’s world. He had possibly killed his best friend, told him that his dad was not a hero but a monster, made him see his master were liars, destroyed his base at the beginning of the movie, killed several of his friends… and Luke was a young, immature man (if you compare to what he should’ve been in TLJ).

So I highly doubt that the possible future he saw was worse than this. As selfless as anyone may be, we are always biased towards ourselves.

There’s a big difference between being 20 years old and falling on your ass and learning your dad’s a failure and being 50 years old and facing the possibility that you’re a failure and your life’s work has been meaningless.

yeah, that is what i was getting at with my previous post.

• first failure is hard, but he didn’t actually know his dad, and he was still young and in my mind, unwilling to accept the truth of his dad’s evilness, so he kinda muddled through with the stubborness of youth.
• second failure, brought back the first (which he probably didn’t think of a failure before, because he had won vader over right?), and amplified it, added extra layers of failure. People who think they are right all of the time, fail HARD.

Yes, but here’s the problem. Ben hadn’t really done anything by that point, so there was no reason to assume Luke would not continue to believe he could turn the tide. I can sort of accept your reasoning if Ben had crossed over to the dark side in both thought and action, but just the prospect should not be enough, considering Luke’s experiences IMO.

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

From what we see and are told in the movie, apparently Luke didn’t even try to talk to Ben before going to him in his hut. And that’s just insane for me. We’re talking about the guy who surrendered himself to the Empire to have some alone time with Hitler to try to convince him that he’s actually a good guy.

Luke said that he had sensed some of this during their training, but had to be sure. It really doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that you ask someone about as a primary way of discovering the truth.

I respectfully disagree. To me, trust is the basis for any relationship, and not just romantic ones. So yes, Luke should’ve talked to Ben before anything. Talking to him would also trigger several of Ben’s inner thoughts and feelings that Luke would be able to sense, given the subject of their discussion, and because Ben at that point probably didn’t know how to close his mind from a Jedi master.

That assumption that i bolded is yours. i think the opposite, and I think there is enough in the movie to point to Ben having already been under some level of tutelage from Snoke at that point, that yeah, he probably could close his mind to a Jedi master. The other reason to believe that he could close his mind, is because Luke choose to search his feelings while he was asleep, with the obvious to discern reason that he couldn’t do it as well when he wasn’t asleep.

For one Luke already told us, he sensed the darkness, but if that were the case, that Ben was closing his mind, the film should have told us. It’s the basis for good story telling IMO. Just insert a line, where Luke sensed Ben was purposefully hiding his true feelings from Luke, something he shouldn’t be able to do.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Absolutely the scariest thing. Obviously I’m not talking about the immediate threat, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that Kylo brought Luke more pain than Vader (I’m talking emotionally here).

Yeah, but what the basis is for that fear, and pain other than the vague concept of “darkness in his heart” is unknown. All we saw was a young boy lying in his bed, which isn’t much at all IMO, considering this:

No, he sees someone who will bring to an end everything and everyone that he spent his entire life building and loving.

He sees someone who might bring an end to everything and everyone that he spent his entire life building and loving. It’s his job to prevent that from happening.

DominicCobb said:

Absolutely the scariest thing. Obviously I’m not talking about the immediate threat, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that Kylo brought Luke more pain than Vader (I’m talking emotionally here).

Yeah, but what the basis is for that fear, and pain other than the vague concept of “darkness in his heart” is unknown. All we saw was a young boy lying in his bed, which isn’t much at all IMO, considering this:

Collipso said:

bigalroz said:

DrDre said:

Scarriest thing, really?!!! Scarrier than facing Darth Vader, the man who murdered your father and your mentor?

Apparently so according to Luke himself:

“I’ve seen this raw strength only once before. It didn’t scare me enough then. It does now.”

In that dialog he is talking about Ben, so I guess he sees the potential in Ben to be even worse that Darth Vader or the Emperor

Vader was a quadruple amputee in his 50’s and had weakened himself to unimaginable extent after he lost to Obi-Wan in Mustafar. So Kylo Ren in terms of raw strength might’ve been in Vader’s league. However, I don’t think Luke had that much time and was enough in tune with the force both times he faced Vader to be able to sense his raw strength. I think he was more focused in Vader’s feelings in RotJ and in ESB he was just shitting his pants, really.

Luke has no way of knowing Vader’s raw strength, meaning before Vader was trained as a Jedi.

bigalroz said:

DrDre said:

Scarriest thing, really?!!! Scarrier than facing Darth Vader, the man who murdered your father and your mentor?

Apparently so according to Luke himself:

“I’ve seen this raw strength only once before. It didn’t scare me enough then. It does now.”

In that dialog he is talking about Ben, so I guess he sees the potential in Ben to be even worse that Darth Vader or the Emperor

I disagree. Luke never saw anyone’s raw strength before he started training students, since both Vader and the Emperor had already mastered the Force. So, his only source of reference are his other students, and Ben in the case of Rey, who obviously didn’t turn out that well.

DominicCobb said:

A Jedi should be able to control his fear, for the most part, sure. But this is probably the scariest thing Luke has ever faced, I think expecting him to act completely perfect in this situation is downright silly.

Scarriest thing, really?!!! Scarrier than facing Darth Vader, the man who murdered your father and your mentor? Scarrier than losing your hand, and having to decide whether to live and join your Nazi father, or fall to what would have seemed certain death? Scarrier than facing the Emperor, a man who turned your once good father into space Hitler? I think comparing Ben’s dark feelings, and the possibility of suffering in the future, to actually experiencing suffering of yourself and others is rather silly.

Ben is not “one student.” You can’t just fucking call him that. He’s Luke’s nephew. He’s the next Skywalker, which of course means a great potential for power but also a great potential for darkness.

Sure, but Luke has faced much worse than a nephew with a great potential for darkness. He’s faced his father who was as dark as dark can be, and he faced that prospect with courage and conviction.

It’s pretty easy to see why sensing darkness in Ben would freak him out to the point of trying to ascertain for sure where his heart’s at. If Ben had done something drastic beforehand, I’m not sure Luke would’ve even handled it this way. This is just Luke trying to get ahead of a situation before it turns bad. Sneaking into his nephew’s bedroom to sense his feelings isn’t even that irrational.

Luke had grown past just freaking out without serious provocation, that’s what the entire throne room sequence in ROTJ was about. Luke was goaded by the two most evil people in the galaxy, facing his friends being slaughtered in a space battle without being able to help them. In the end Luke resigned himself, and threw away his lightsaber, realising that the dark side cannot be beaten with sheer force. In my view RJ hasn’t presented us with anything to trump that experience to make it credible, that Luke, the Jedi who threw away his lightsaber facing the Emperor, would freak out to that extend by something, that may happen in a possible future, when he was able to alter the course of history for something equally if not more terrible, that really happened in the GFFA.

The thing is, this isn’t the act of “some novice.” This is the act of a master who everyone, including to an extent himself, thinks can’t make mistakes. And yes, he is emotionally compromised. But what has prepared him for this? Especially when it’s implied there has been balance and peace for almost 30 years, how could Luke have been so perfect as to dodge this fear? Just because Luke is a Jedi master means he’s incapable of being afraid?

There is nothing out of character about this. It is 100% in character.

Luke was prepared. Remember Han and Leia’s conversation in TFA:

HAN
There was nothing we could’ve done. There was too much Vader in him.

LEIA
That’s why I wanted him to train with Luke. I just never should have sent him away. That’s when I lost him. That’s when I lost you both.

So, from this conversation it’s clear, that when Leia sent Ben to Luke, he was already struggling with darkness. So, Luke like Leia must have been aware of the growing darkness, hoping he could turn the tide. He obviously failed, but this conversation doesn’t rhyme with Luke being caught off guard by Ben’s dark side. So, I maintain Luke had experienced far worse situations than a potential bad outcome. In my view, that Luke would not just have given up his conviction, that Ben could be saved from the dark side like his father. That Luke would not have lost his cool without serious provocation by real events. For me that is the character of Luke Skywalker, that has been build up for three films, and a sixty second flashback is not enough to negate all that development, and turn Luke into a shell of his former self. Of course for you it may be different…

DominicCobb said:

First of all, I don’t think “Luke sneaking into his apprentice’s room” is a huge deal to start with. It’s his nephew, it’s not that creepy. Not to mention it wasn’t his intent to kill Ben when he entered, I honestly doubt he even considered the possibility beforehand.

Second of all, it’s not like he hacked into his laptop and looked at Ben’s search history. Luke was searching Ben’s feelings, this is something Jedi do practically 24/7. He just decided to do it when Ben was asleep because that would give him the clearest picture. Is that a bit of a breach of privacy? Sure, of course it is (though not to the extent you’re making it out to be). Luke was afraid of Ben’s potential. He wanted to find out what was in his heart, and what his future was. Could he have handled the situation better? Yes, but that’s the point. In his hubris he thought he could take matters into his own hands. When he realized his mistake, it left him with shame and consequence.

Yes, but for me the problem is, that a Jedi should be able to control his or her fear, and make rational decisions, especially one who has seen and experienced far worse than one student’s dark feelings. Luke is acting out of character without having been provided the proper motivation. He is a Jedi Master afterall, not some novice. I can accept Luke becoming emotionally compromised (like Mace Windu was in ROTS), but considering Luke’s history and experiences, it would have to be something pretty shocking, like Ben willfully injuring one of his fellow students, and seeming to enjoy the experience. If Ben had stormed off after doing something that terrible, I can picture a shaken Luke sneaking into Ben’s room at night, still angry about what has happened, wanting to protect his students. The anger would cause Luke to ignite his lightsaber, once again showing that the dark side is always a danger even to a Jedi Master. That would have worked for me, as Luke was then properly provoked, then tempted, and subsequently controlled his anger, even of it was too late.

SilverWook said:

Ben? Are you falling to the Dark Side?

No, Master Skywalker!

Good! Carry on with your exercises then!

Ben had already fallen to the Dark Side, and probably already swayed the students that left with him. (Presumably they became the Knights of Ren?) His reaction to Luke wasn’t feeling betrayed by his master, it was being found out. Luke’s school was doomed whether he went in Ben’s room that night or not.

We’re talking about a confrontation between a Jedi Master and his apprentice, not between a chemistry teacher and a student. Of course Ben would know Luke can sense his feelings and vice versa. Therefore lying about it wouldn’t help Ben in any way. The difference is, that this way would be honorable and out in the open, with Ben aware of the situation. However, like I said, since the film didn’t bother to give us some context, it’s all speculation, and all we have is a fearful Luke sneaking into Ben’s room, rather than face the issue head on, for some unknown reason.

SilverWook said:

What should Luke have done, hire a private investigator? I think a Jedi Master has the right to investigate a student suspected of flirting with the dark side. You can’t apply real world concepts of privacy to the GFFA.

Maybe if the Jedi council had been more inquisitive about what Anakin did on Tatooine, or where he often spent his nights, the galaxy would be a different place.

Well it’s all about trust, as Rey notes in the film, I believe. TLJ makes a strong case, that Luke’s actions pushed Ben over the edge, resulting in Ben destroying the Jedi Temple over Luke’s betrayal. The problem is that TLJ doesn’t bother to explain what put Luke in this state of mind (or Ben for that matter) other than sensing some darkness. That apparently is enough to get the more reasonable options off the table, and sneak into your students room to probe him for information. He might have confronted Ben, if he felt uneasy about the situation, rather than trying to obtain the information in such a dodgy way. In my view there needed to have been some sort of incident in the film, that caused Luke to lose his cool, and cross some boundaries in order to protect his other students.

DominicCobb said:

Luke doesn’t read Ben’s thoughts.

Those are semantics in my view. Luke secretly entered Ben’s private quarters, put his hand above Ben’s head, and extracted information about Ben’s state of mind/his feelings/his heart without Ben’s permission while he slept.

Damn! This peeping is not a good idea. It’s too tempting to respond.

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

Ocrop27 said:

I see many people saying that TLJ deconstructs the myth of Star Wars. I think this is a valid interpretation, but not entirely true. In my view this movie tests the myth, yes, it creates terrible (and incredible) obstacles for the heroes, making them question what was once unquestionable. “dead heroes”, as Leia told Poe, reminding us that in fact not everything serves a divine purpose as we usually believe for these films.

But after the dark journey that was the TLJ, we have a much more powerful myth, in my opinion. One that goes beyond the old norm, because it does not abandon what has already been, it just puts to the test and adds the new concepts. Luke in Crait was real, he inspired the Galaxy, saved the resistance and faced his biggest mistake, Ben. He was a great hero, but still only a man capable of making mistakes.

All the characters in this movie have their truths tested and evolve from that. Just as the film itself tests the truths of the saga (as TESB and TPM did before). I agree that this film has a postmodern side, consequent of the time in which we live, but I do not think that it left the myth, only magnified.

You can’t have your cake and eat it. TLJ deconstructs the legend of Luke Skywalker, and turns him into the deeply flawed man Luke Skywalker. Luke then creates a new in-universe legend or myth of himself within the story. This is not the same as creating a myth for the benefit of the viewer. TLJ is a film about myth and legend, not a myth onto itself. If the OT is the story of how on the North Pole, there’s a mythical person called Santa Clause, who makes toys and then delivers them to children all around the world on Christmas Day, then TLJ is a story about a disillusioned fat old drunk, who tells a young girl, who’s come looking for the legend of Santa Clause, that he hates Christmas, and that Santa Clause doesn’t exist. After refusing to put on his red suit for the entire story, the old drunk redeems himself by donning the red suit one more time, and giving his greatest performance in the holiday parade, convincing children in the story one last time that Santa is real, before shuffling off the mortal coil. To summarize, a story about Santa Clause is not the same as a story about a guy playing Santa Clause.

I’d say that the legend of Santa is still intact.

Once you take off the beard and the suit, it becomes very hard to sell the reality of Santa Clause.

Santa just stopped believing in himself and even the concept of Christmas because he couldn’t decide if Ben was naughty or nice.

Eventually he forgives himself, learns from his mistakes, not only saves the day, but reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas for a new generation.

No, Santa reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas to the children in the story. However, us critics have already seen Santa without his beard and suit, so we won’t be fooled again.

The legend is perfectly intact. Your delusion of perfection is gone. That is the lesson Luke had to learn too.

Becoming a Jedi is a metaphore for reaching a state of enlightenment, an ideal. When Luke says I’m a Jedi, like my father before me, he has grown beyond himself, and beyond his father. That was Luke’s arc. The ST then destroys that arc, by having Luke forsake everything he once believed in, including the sister and friends he once would have protected at an cost. TLJ then has him pass on the baton to the next new hope, who again has to fight another Empire, and another fallen Jedi student with the aid of another group of rebels. In effect the ST has Luke take off his beard and red suit, then has him pass it on to Rey, and then expects us to believe Rey’s the real Santa Clause.

And I think we are down to the real issue with this statement. Luke reaching a state of enlightenment. Really? If that is Luke’s arc to you, that is great, but that really isn’t his arc. He is a Jedi, like his father before him. His father was flawed at still fallen at the moment he said that. He had reached a state of confidence and faced the most powerful force user in the galaxy. He knew he was about to die. His sacrifice is what turned Darth Vader back into Anakin Skywalker. In terms of a Jedi, Luke was facing the trials to become a knight and on the success of this, he became a Knight and master by virtue of being the only Jedi. I don’t think we can say he had reached the pinnacle of enlightenment. Enlightened yes, but not perfect. Not finished. He still had to journey on as Jedi Master and train a new batch, which Abrams gave us as an utter failure. Not just Kylo Ren, but the rest of his trainees killed or turned. He did what his masters before him did, retreated to regroup. But Luke ended up on Ach-to, finding the ancient Jedi texts and becoming disillusioned that he could do anything different a second time. How can he keep someone from falling to the dark side? He didn’t know. Then Rey came along and seems almost impervious to the dark side.

His arc was to become a Jedi and pass on what he had learned, as the Rebel Alliance restored peace and justice to the galaxy. What RJ did is to have Luke make a 180 degree turn, without providing proper motivation for Luke’s change of heart, and no a sixty second flashback is not character development. Luke turned his back on his ideals and his friends, not even the death of his best friend, or the impending doom of his twin sister could change his mind. Remember this is the same character who for three films risked his life to save his friends. That to me requires a bit more explanation than Luke mind raping young Ben Solo, and seeing some darkness for me to jump on the Rey band wagon.

Really? That’s a pretty serious charge to level at Luke. And I don’t buy it for a second. There’s a world of difference between picking up vibes and entering someone’s mind. Was Yoda a peeping tom for watching Luke remotely as he grew up?

Well Luke stood over Ben in his bedroom as he slept, reading his inner most thoughts and feelings. It was a hyperbole I was using, but it’s a pretty gross and involuntary invasion of privacy either way, particulary the way it was depicted. Yoda also invaded Luke’s privacy, but then again Obi-Wan and Yoda were watching over him to keep him safe, and unlike Luke couldn’t just have a casual chat with the boy, without arrousing suspicion. Luke could have just had a conversation with Ben, but as I said before, the entire relationship between Luke and young Ben Solo before the events in Ben’s room are completely unexplored, a major weakness of the film in my view.

PS. I’m not here by the way. I just wanted to explain my position. From now on I’ll just be a Peeping Tom.

dahmage said:

Hyperbole is fine as a rule, but the exception is when you are venting with ‘angry’ hyperbole each time you post. I think it is not good form. but feel free to do it, i can’t stop you.

I’m not angry, but I do like a bit of fire in a discussion. It’s not meant to be offensive, but it is obviously taken that way by some, so I will stop. Not a week goes by and I’m in another conflict, so I must be doing something wrong. It’s not much fun for any of us, so time to find a different discussion forum to vent my TLJ opinions. I’ll stick to the technical mumbo jumbo on OT.com.

Thanks everyone for some nice discussions. It’s been interesting reading everyone’s point of view.

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

Luke mind raping young Ben Solo

Have you learned nothing from our previous run-in?

I’ll just report it this time. Have a nice day.

Why is everyone so sensitive about using hyperboles?

Don’t worry. I’ve learned my lesson. There’s no point in continuing any discussion, if it just leads to anger, conflicts, and the like. This thread is a toxic place, and I’m tired of being part of the problem.

Have a nice day indeed…

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

Ocrop27 said:

I see many people saying that TLJ deconstructs the myth of Star Wars. I think this is a valid interpretation, but not entirely true. In my view this movie tests the myth, yes, it creates terrible (and incredible) obstacles for the heroes, making them question what was once unquestionable. “dead heroes”, as Leia told Poe, reminding us that in fact not everything serves a divine purpose as we usually believe for these films.

But after the dark journey that was the TLJ, we have a much more powerful myth, in my opinion. One that goes beyond the old norm, because it does not abandon what has already been, it just puts to the test and adds the new concepts. Luke in Crait was real, he inspired the Galaxy, saved the resistance and faced his biggest mistake, Ben. He was a great hero, but still only a man capable of making mistakes.

All the characters in this movie have their truths tested and evolve from that. Just as the film itself tests the truths of the saga (as TESB and TPM did before). I agree that this film has a postmodern side, consequent of the time in which we live, but I do not think that it left the myth, only magnified.

You can’t have your cake and eat it. TLJ deconstructs the legend of Luke Skywalker, and turns him into the deeply flawed man Luke Skywalker. Luke then creates a new in-universe legend or myth of himself within the story. This is not the same as creating a myth for the benefit of the viewer. TLJ is a film about myth and legend, not a myth onto itself. If the OT is the story of how on the North Pole, there’s a mythical person called Santa Clause, who makes toys and then delivers them to children all around the world on Christmas Day, then TLJ is a story about a disillusioned fat old drunk, who tells a young girl, who’s come looking for the legend of Santa Clause, that he hates Christmas, and that Santa Clause doesn’t exist. After refusing to put on his red suit for the entire story, the old drunk redeems himself by donning the red suit one more time, and giving his greatest performance in the holiday parade, convincing children in the story one last time that Santa is real, before shuffling off the mortal coil. To summarize, a story about Santa Clause is not the same as a story about a guy playing Santa Clause.

I’d say that the legend of Santa is still intact.

Once you take off the beard and the suit, it becomes very hard to sell the reality of Santa Clause.

Santa just stopped believing in himself and even the concept of Christmas because he couldn’t decide if Ben was naughty or nice.

Eventually he forgives himself, learns from his mistakes, not only saves the day, but reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas for a new generation.

No, Santa reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas to the children in the story. However, us critics have already seen Santa without his beard and suit, so we won’t be fooled again.

The legend is perfectly intact. Your delusion of perfection is gone. That is the lesson Luke had to learn too.

Becoming a Jedi is a metaphore for reaching a state of enlightenment, an ideal. When Luke says I’m a Jedi, like my father before me, he has grown beyond himself, and beyond his father. That was Luke’s arc. The ST then destroys that arc, by having Luke forsake everything he once believed in, including the sister and friends he once would have protected at an cost. TLJ then has him pass on the baton to the next new hope, who again has to fight another Empire, and another fallen Jedi student with the aid of another group of rebels. In effect the ST has Luke take off his beard and red suit, then has him pass it on to Rey, and then expects us to believe Rey’s the real Santa Clause.

And I think we are down to the real issue with this statement. Luke reaching a state of enlightenment. Really? If that is Luke’s arc to you, that is great, but that really isn’t his arc. He is a Jedi, like his father before him. His father was flawed at still fallen at the moment he said that. He had reached a state of confidence and faced the most powerful force user in the galaxy. He knew he was about to die. His sacrifice is what turned Darth Vader back into Anakin Skywalker. In terms of a Jedi, Luke was facing the trials to become a knight and on the success of this, he became a Knight and master by virtue of being the only Jedi. I don’t think we can say he had reached the pinnacle of enlightenment. Enlightened yes, but not perfect. Not finished. He still had to journey on as Jedi Master and train a new batch, which Abrams gave us as an utter failure. Not just Kylo Ren, but the rest of his trainees killed or turned. He did what his masters before him did, retreated to regroup. But Luke ended up on Ach-to, finding the ancient Jedi texts and becoming disillusioned that he could do anything different a second time. How can he keep someone from falling to the dark side? He didn’t know. Then Rey came along and seems almost impervious to the dark side.

His arc was to become a Jedi and pass on what he had learned, as the Rebel Alliance restored peace and justice to the galaxy. What RJ did is to have Luke make a 180 degree turn, without providing proper motivation for Luke’s change of heart, and no a sixty second flashback is not character development. Luke turned his back on his ideals and his friends, not even the death of his best friend, or the impending doom of his twin sister could change his mind. Remember this is the same character who for three films risked his life to save his friends. That to me requires a bit more explanation than Luke mind raping young Ben Solo, and seeing some darkness for me to jump on the Rey band wagon.

Ok, Dre. you really need to lay off of that closing line hyperbole nonesense.

This is the same character that for three films thought he knew best, and trusted himself over others.

In this film he reached what some of us find to be a believable conclusion, given his character, and a major life crisis in how the Jedi training turned out.

Why? Hyperboles serve a function to punctuate an argument.

Hyperbole: derived from a Greek word meaning “over-casting,” is a figure of speech that involves an exaggeration of ideas for the sake of emphasis; exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

There’s nothing wrong with using hyperboles in a discussion, and it certainly is not something that anyone should take offense to.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

Ocrop27 said:

I see many people saying that TLJ deconstructs the myth of Star Wars. I think this is a valid interpretation, but not entirely true. In my view this movie tests the myth, yes, it creates terrible (and incredible) obstacles for the heroes, making them question what was once unquestionable. “dead heroes”, as Leia told Poe, reminding us that in fact not everything serves a divine purpose as we usually believe for these films.

But after the dark journey that was the TLJ, we have a much more powerful myth, in my opinion. One that goes beyond the old norm, because it does not abandon what has already been, it just puts to the test and adds the new concepts. Luke in Crait was real, he inspired the Galaxy, saved the resistance and faced his biggest mistake, Ben. He was a great hero, but still only a man capable of making mistakes.

All the characters in this movie have their truths tested and evolve from that. Just as the film itself tests the truths of the saga (as TESB and TPM did before). I agree that this film has a postmodern side, consequent of the time in which we live, but I do not think that it left the myth, only magnified.

You can’t have your cake and eat it. TLJ deconstructs the legend of Luke Skywalker, and turns him into the deeply flawed man Luke Skywalker. Luke then creates a new in-universe legend or myth of himself within the story. This is not the same as creating a myth for the benefit of the viewer. TLJ is a film about myth and legend, not a myth onto itself. If the OT is the story of how on the North Pole, there’s a mythical person called Santa Clause, who makes toys and then delivers them to children all around the world on Christmas Day, then TLJ is a story about a disillusioned fat old drunk, who tells a young girl, who’s come looking for the legend of Santa Clause, that he hates Christmas, and that Santa Clause doesn’t exist. After refusing to put on his red suit for the entire story, the old drunk redeems himself by donning the red suit one more time, and giving his greatest performance in the holiday parade, convincing children in the story one last time that Santa is real, before shuffling off the mortal coil. To summarize, a story about Santa Clause is not the same as a story about a guy playing Santa Clause.

I’d say that the legend of Santa is still intact.

Once you take off the beard and the suit, it becomes very hard to sell the reality of Santa Clause.

Santa just stopped believing in himself and even the concept of Christmas because he couldn’t decide if Ben was naughty or nice.

Eventually he forgives himself, learns from his mistakes, not only saves the day, but reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas for a new generation.

No, Santa reaffirms the legend of Santa and the values of Christmas to the children in the story. However, us critics have already seen Santa without his beard and suit, so we won’t be fooled again.

The legend is perfectly intact. Your delusion of perfection is gone. That is the lesson Luke had to learn too.

Becoming a Jedi is a metaphore for reaching a state of enlightenment, an ideal. When Luke says I’m a Jedi, like my father before me, he has grown beyond himself, and beyond his father. That was Luke’s arc. The ST then destroys that arc, by having Luke forsake everything he once believed in, including the sister and friends he once would have protected at an cost. TLJ then has him pass on the baton to the next new hope, who again has to fight another Empire, and another fallen Jedi student with the aid of another group of rebels. In effect the ST has Luke take off his beard and red suit, then has him pass it on to Rey, and then expects us to believe Rey’s the real Santa Clause.

And I think we are down to the real issue with this statement. Luke reaching a state of enlightenment. Really? If that is Luke’s arc to you, that is great, but that really isn’t his arc. He is a Jedi, like his father before him. His father was flawed at still fallen at the moment he said that. He had reached a state of confidence and faced the most powerful force user in the galaxy. He knew he was about to die. His sacrifice is what turned Darth Vader back into Anakin Skywalker. In terms of a Jedi, Luke was facing the trials to become a knight and on the success of this, he became a Knight and master by virtue of being the only Jedi. I don’t think we can say he had reached the pinnacle of enlightenment. Enlightened yes, but not perfect. Not finished. He still had to journey on as Jedi Master and train a new batch, which Abrams gave us as an utter failure. Not just Kylo Ren, but the rest of his trainees killed or turned. He did what his masters before him did, retreated to regroup. But Luke ended up on Ach-to, finding the ancient Jedi texts and becoming disillusioned that he could do anything different a second time. How can he keep someone from falling to the dark side? He didn’t know. Then Rey came along and seems almost impervious to the dark side.

His arc was to become a Jedi and pass on what he had learned, as the Rebel Alliance restored peace and justice to the galaxy. What RJ did is to have Luke make a 180 degree turn, without providing proper motivation for Luke’s change of heart, and no a sixty second flashback is not character development. Luke turned his back on his ideals and his friends, not even the death of his best friend, or the impending doom of his twin sister could change his mind. Remember this is the same character who for three films risked his life to save his friends. That to me requires a bit more explanation than Luke mind raping young Ben Solo, and seeing some darkness for me to jump on the Rey band wagon.

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

However, like many of us viewers she doesn’t find the legendary last Jedi on Ach-To, but a fat old drunk, who now hates Christmas.

Hyperbole lives on!

Luke shut himself off from the Force, and wants to die on a forsaken island. It doesn’t seem that much of a hyperbole to me. At least my drunk still wants to live, if only for the bottle.

Well of course it doesn’t seem like hyperbole to you, you’re living in a prison of your own making. 😛

How do you know you’re on the right side of the prison bars? 😉

I mean honestly, there isn’t a right side of the bars. We both have our interpretations, and technically we’re both in prisons of our own making. However, mine’s a much happier place.

I found a drawing I made at the time I saw Care Bears II in 1986. Trust me, I’m in a very happy place right now.

TV’s Frink said:

Also I find the comparison of Luke to an old drunk Santa Clause ridiculous, but you already knew that.

Also you don’t have to call him a “fat Santa Claus” since that’s redundant.

Sorry to bring you the news, but Santa’s fat belly is just a myth. In reality it’s just padding, because if Santa was really so obese, high blood pressure would have gotten the better of him decades ago. 😉

PS. Reindeer’s noses can’t really glow in the dark. That too is a myth.

Damn! I should be writing Star Wars movies, this is fun!

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

However, like many of us viewers she doesn’t find the legendary last Jedi on Ach-To, but a fat old drunk, who now hates Christmas.

Hyperbole lives on!

Luke shut himself off from the Force, and wants to die on a forsaken island. It doesn’t seem that much of a hyperbole to me. At least my drunk still wants to live, if only for the bottle.

Well of course it doesn’t seem like hyperbole to you, you’re living in a prison of your own making. 😛

How do you know you’re on the right side of the prison bars? 😉