DrDre

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience

Still leaning on this I see.

C’mon Frink, no-one in the military has ever got it wrong! We should read everything anyone who has fought says - or else we may not think as Dre wishes, as our lives may depend on it some day, otherwise an ER tv doctor will not save us - or something…

All for a link to article about Holdo not being a feminist (going on the url) - according to someone with actual military experience - who is giving their opinion - not fact - opinion.

My uncle has military experience - served in Northern Ireland. I wouldn’t listen to his opinion on Star Wars - he doesn’t like it. That’s okay. If he wrote an article on SW - or feminism - I wouldn’t read it. Still love him to bits like. If he does write an articles on Star Wars feel free not to read it - or read it, if you want - your call.

C’mon Jason, you wouldn’t know, because you didn’t read the guy’s opinion. Could he be wrong? Sure, but it’s less likely than let’s say the opinion of a mod on a Star Wars forum. If you can present another opinion, that’s actually based on relevant experience or expertise, rather than being a fan of a movie, that refutes this guy’s argument, I will gladly read it. He can even call me a man baby, since expertise and personality are generally not correlated (for example, I would gladly be operated by a brilliant churgin, who’s also an *******). However, until that day comes, I choose to trust a veteran’s opinion over a Star Wars fan when it comes to military situations.

My uncle’s opinion? Not interested - it’s not an ‘expert opinion’ in the context of is Holdo a feminist or not, and comparing real life military to a sci-fi film. I think I’ve already said that - though you seem to ignore many points and questions I’ve previously made/asked on the subject. Please feel free to read them back again - or seemingly not.

My opinion on Holdo being a feminist or not has less value because of someone who fought? Okay…

To be honest - you shouldn’t listen to my opinion - mod or not (What on earth? It doesn’t mean a thing - and am quite surprised you allude it does) - go form your own opinions. You’re free to do that - some have fought for that, so we can make up own own minds and then state them.

I don’t have to refute a man’s opinion or article, nor do I have to read every link put in front of me. Yet I can still state my opinion - and I will do. You want to give it a measure of value? Okay.

You seem very hung up on the feminist angle. Even if that were relevant to judgement of the whole military situation, you don’t know the context of the word, since you didn’t read the article.

Hung up on the feminist angle? No, it is in the url link to the article we are discussing though, isn’t it? A military veteran’s ‘expert opinion’ on Holdo not being a feminist… I’ve stated that a few times - pretty consistent, yes?

You are also not being very consistent. You claim real life military experience is not relevant to a sci-fi film, yet you were happy to link to an article a while ago, where another “expert” believed Holdo’s lightspeed kamikaze was physically possible. Apparently expert opinions are only relevant if they support your narrative.

Nah mate, I post articles for info and that they may be of interest to some - whether people actually read them, believe them, dismiss them, or ignore them is completely up to them. I also don’t repeatedly post about why people should read them - or claim they contain ‘expert opinions’ - so they should.

LOL, I just added a line in my previous post, where I predicted just this answer. You didn’t post it for your own benefit, but for others, and it just happened to support your narrative accidentally. Nice one!

I post a few articles, pics, political content and news pieces I think some here may be interested in. I think I’ve done it for a good few years here. Yet you seem surprised by this? Or have an issue with this?

Yes, it’s the article where you claimed you didn’t judge a book by it’s cover. Yet, you continue to bring up the title “not being a feminist” like it’s some sort of mantra.

I think you’re the one continuing to being up the subject of the article - not me.

Though I didn’t actually claim I didn’t judge a book by it’s cover - I did, however, say this…

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

Allways good to hear from someone who knows what he’s talking about. A military veteran gives a real world account of leadership, and why Holdo did not display good leadership while in command:

https://chrishernandezauthor.com/2017/12/31/admiral-holdo-wasnt-a-feminist-she-was-just-a-bad-leader/

I haven’t read the link - though think Holdo demonstrated good leadership in sacrificing herself to save the remaining Rebels in those unarmed ships being easily picked off by the First Order.

I don’t really need to read the views of a military veteran to understand or appreciate this - nor do I care for a military veteran’s reasons as to why she wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link) - or indeed why some think being a feminist matters in this context - but am sure it will come in handy for those that do. Nice one.

You shouldn’t judge a book by its cover, seems an apt statement here.

I believe we should read something first before commenting on it, but anyways in response to your belief that she displayed good leadership, and the fact that you seem to believe uninformed opinion trumps actual combat and leadership experience relating to a combat situation, here goes:

Mate, it’s not a case of judging a book by it’s cover - it’s a case of no longer still being interested in the topic at hand (which to me has been done to death - and then repeated some more, and then dug up again too) - and also not being interested in the views linked in that article you posted upon reading it’s url link.

So hardly an uninformed opinion on this subject, no?

If this combat veteran believes it was poor leadership cool - I don’t. I also don’t read up other articles from combat veterans when they are unhappy with events from other films that I have no issue with either. Nor those that wish to discuss why someone wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link). Well in to those that do, if that’s their thing, though.

I don’t have the time or energy to read through every link on here - and am certainly not going to spend time on this subject which frankly… doesn’t interest me, and I don’t have a problem with.

My previous post stands as it is - and as I said in that post… fair play that your link may interest others. Nice one.

No, I don’t have an issue with any of your links, articles, etc. In fact I’ve read them with great pleasure, and found them very informative, even the ones that I didn’t agree with, or that didn’t have an appealing title.

Let’s drop this discussion before people get the impression, that we don’t like each other. I probably did overdo things with the article, but I felt the need to defend the content and the author.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience

Still leaning on this I see.

C’mon Frink, no-one in the military has ever got it wrong! We should read everything anyone who has fought says - or else we may not think as Dre wishes, as our lives may depend on it some day, otherwise an ER tv doctor will not save us - or something…

All for a link to article about Holdo not being a feminist (going on the url) - according to someone with actual military experience - who is giving their opinion - not fact - opinion.

My uncle has military experience - served in Northern Ireland. I wouldn’t listen to his opinion on Star Wars - he doesn’t like it. That’s okay. If he wrote an article on SW - or feminism - I wouldn’t read it. Still love him to bits like. If he does write an articles on Star Wars feel free not to read it - or read it, if you want - your call.

C’mon Jason, you wouldn’t know, because you didn’t read the guy’s opinion. Could he be wrong? Sure, but it’s less likely than let’s say the opinion of a mod on a Star Wars forum. If you can present another opinion, that’s actually based on relevant experience or expertise, rather than being a fan of a movie, that refutes this guy’s argument, I will gladly read it. He can even call me a man baby, since expertise and personality are generally not correlated (for example, I would gladly be operated by a brilliant churgin, who’s also an *******). However, until that day comes, I choose to trust a veteran’s opinion over a Star Wars fan when it comes to military situations.

My uncle’s opinion? Not interested - it’s not an ‘expert opinion’ in the context of is Holdo a feminist or not, and comparing real life military to a sci-fi film. I think I’ve already said that - though you seem to ignore many points and questions I’ve previously made/asked on the subject. Please feel free to read them back again - or seemingly not.

My opinion on Holdo being a feminist or not has less value because of someone who fought? Okay…

To be honest - you shouldn’t listen to my opinion - mod or not (What on earth? It doesn’t mean a thing - and am quite surprised you allude it does) - go form your own opinions. You’re free to do that - some have fought for that, so we can make up own own minds and then state them.

I don’t have to refute a man’s opinion or article, nor do I have to read every link put in front of me. Yet I can still state my opinion - and I will do. You want to give it a measure of value? Okay.

You seem very hung up on the feminist angle. Even if that were relevant to judgement of the whole military situation, you don’t know the context of the word, since you didn’t read the article.

Hung up on the feminist angle? No, it is in the url link to the article we are discussing though, isn’t it? A military veteran’s ‘expert opinion’ on Holdo not being a feminist… I’ve stated that a few times - pretty consistent, yes?

You are also not being very consistent. You claim real life military experience is not relevant to a sci-fi film, yet you were happy to link to an article a while ago, where another “expert” believed Holdo’s lightspeed kamikaze was physically possible. Apparently expert opinions are only relevant if they support your narrative.

Nah mate, I post articles for info and that they may be of interest to some - whether people actually read them, believe them, dismiss them, or ignore them is completely up to them. I also don’t repeatedly post about why people should read them - or claim they contain ‘expert opinions’ - so they should.

LOL, I just added a line in my previous post, where I predicted just this answer. You didn’t post it for your own benefit, but for others. I suppose, it just happened to support your narrative accidentally. Nice one!

Yes, it’s the article where you claimed you didn’t judge a book by it’s cover. Yet, you continue to hammer on the title phrase “not a feminist” like it’s some sort of mantra.

TV’s Frink said:

What the heck is a churgin?

Surgeon, I’m not a native English speaker.

The weirdest thing about the Holdo/Poe situation is, that she just allows Poe to draw his own conclusions right in front of her on multiple occasions, and she does nothing to set him straight. She doesn’t even tell him there is a plan in the most general sense. This is one of her luitenants, a man who is trusted down the chain of command, a man she should rely on, because she probably doesn’t interact much with the lower level personel being an admiral and all.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience

Still leaning on this I see.

C’mon Frink, no-one in the military has ever got it wrong! We should read everything anyone who has fought says - or else we may not think as Dre wishes, as our lives may depend on it some day, otherwise an ER tv doctor will not save us - or something…

All for a link to article about Holdo not being a feminist (going on the url) - according to someone with actual military experience - who is giving their opinion - not fact - opinion.

My uncle has military experience - served in Northern Ireland. I wouldn’t listen to his opinion on Star Wars - he doesn’t like it. That’s okay. If he wrote an article on SW - or feminism - I wouldn’t read it. Still love him to bits like. If he does write an articles on Star Wars feel free not to read it - or read it, if you want - your call.

C’mon Jason, you wouldn’t know, because you didn’t read the guy’s opinion. Could he be wrong? Sure, but it’s less likely than let’s say the opinion of a mod on a Star Wars forum. If you can present another opinion, that’s actually based on relevant experience or expertise, rather than being a fan of a movie, that refutes this guy’s argument, I will gladly read it. He can even call me a man baby, since expertise and personality are generally not correlated (for example, I would gladly be operated by a brilliant churgin, who’s also an *******). However, until that day comes, I choose to trust a veteran’s opinion over a Star Wars fan when it comes to military situations.

My uncle’s opinion? Not interested - it’s not an ‘expert opinion’ in the context of is Holdo a feminist or not, and comparing real life military to a sci-fi film. I think I’ve already said that - though you seem to ignore many points and questions I’ve previously made/asked on the subject. Please feel free to read them back again - or seemingly not.

My opinion on Holdo being a feminist or not has less value because of someone who fought? Okay…

To be honest - you shouldn’t listen to my opinion - mod or not (What on earth? It doesn’t mean a thing - and am quite surprised you allude it does) - go form your own opinions. You’re free to do that - some have fought for that, so we can make up own own minds and then state them.

I don’t have to refute a man’s opinion or article, nor do I have to read every link put in front of me. Yet I can still state my opinion - and I will do. You want to give it a measure of value? Okay.

You seem very hung up on the feminist angle, despite the fact that it’s not really what the article is about (books, judging, and covers remember?). Even if that were relevant to judgement of the whole military situation, you don’t know the context of the word, since you didn’t read the article, so it’s all just based on assumptions.

You are also not being very consistent. You claim real life military experience is not relevant to a sci-fi film, yet you were happy to link to an article a while ago, where another “expert” believed Holdo’s lightspeed kamikaze was physically possible in another discussion. Apparently expert opinions are only relevant, if they support your narrative, but let me guess you don’t think it is relevant, but others might, and that’s why you posted the link.

DominicCobb said:

I personally wouldn’t trust an “expert” opinion on anything in Star Wars.

Yeah, but you don’t believe logic is relevant either. 😉

oojason said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience

Still leaning on this I see.

C’mon Frink, no-one in the military has ever got it wrong! We should read everything anyone who has fought says - or else we may not think as Dre wishes, as our lives may depend on it some day, otherwise an ER tv doctor will not save us - or something…

All for a link to article about Holdo not being a feminist (going on the url) - according to someone with actual military experience - who is giving their opinion - not fact - opinion.

My uncle has military experience - served in Northern Ireland. I wouldn’t listen to his opinion on Star Wars - he doesn’t like it. That’s okay. If he wrote an article on SW - or feminism - I wouldn’t read it. Still love him to bits like. If he does write an articles on Star Wars feel free not to read it - or read it, if you want - your call.

C’mon Jason, you wouldn’t know, because you didn’t read the guy’s opinion. Could he be wrong? Sure, but it’s less likely than let’s say the opinion of a mod on a Star Wars forum. If you can present another opinion, that’s actually based on relevant experience or expertise, rather than being a fan of a movie, that refutes this guy’s argument, I will gladly read it. He can even call me a man baby, since expertise and personality are generally not correlated (for example, I would gladly be operated by a brilliant churgin, who’s also an *******). However, until that day comes, I choose to trust a veteran’s opinion over a Star Wars fan’s when it comes to military situations.

SilverWook said:

https://youtu.be/eHCTaUFXpP8 😛

The Rebellion never struck me as a formal military outfit, more like a resistance movement. ER is ostensibly set in the real world, Star Wars is not. And there are plenty of war movies set on Earth that take liberties to serve the plot.

Sure, and so do the Simpsons, but nobody would call Dr. Nick a brilliant churgin. 😉

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience

Still leaning on this I see.

Of course, because unlike all of us here, this guy actually put his life on the line, and has the relevant training, and experience. If you were ill, who would you trust, a fan of the TV show ER, or a doctor? If a real churgin tells me, a doctor in a movie performed the wrong procedure, I tend to believe him or her.

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience, who makes it very clear, that in his military experience Holdo is not a good leader, both from the perspective of how she deals with Poe, and from the perspective of her strategy with regards to the FO. Being in the military is about more than following orders, and being a military leader is about more than forcing your will onto someone, or expecting people to blindly follow orders. The fact is that her leadership resulted in a mutiny, because she didn’t communicate her strategy in a highly tense, and life threatening situation. She has final responsibility, and she failed to communicate her plans even when Poe relieved her of her command at gun point.

g-force said:

Dre,

how would you feel about correcting the few shots that have been (expertly) replaced with other sources, to better match color? I can think of the reel change at the trash compactor scene as an example. Maybe Williarob could provide a complete source list so we know where they all are.

I could take a look once this has been released. 😃

Here’s a little teaser for reel 6:

Jay said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

what the literal f*$&

goodness, i think i am gonna check out too. now we are saying that because one real life general doesn’t like what they did in star wars, that makes it bad? HAH. you can find a real life general to say that everything that happens in real life is bad too, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. SMH.

Did you read the article? What’s so shocking about someone using his real life experience on military leadership to make an assessment of how a character behaves in a movie, and whether such behaviour in a real life situation would constitute good leadership? These characters are presented as role models to an extend, and people identify with them. It seems to me, that someone with actual expertise on military leadership would have a more informed opinion, than the average person, but I guess that only matters, if the opinion is favourable to TLJ, like for example when a physicist states Holdo’s kamikaze act would be physically plausible in their “expert” opinion.

You don’t even have to base your argument on a military context to show that Holdo is a bad leader. Bad workplace managers exhibit the same traits. I recoiled at her response to Poe’s questions. Is that how you inspire confidence and loyalty? Dressing down your subordinates and pulling rank?

Even brash, cocky people like Poe are usually well-meaning and only need appropriate outlets for their energy. I always do my best as a manager to maintain the delicate balance between keeping my employees informed and empowered, and still making it clear who’s in charge when the time comes to make a final decision. If I ever spoke to an employee like Holdo did to Poe, they’d be right to lack confidence in my leadership abilities, and if I had a manager who talked to me that way, I’d be looking for a new job. Not an option in the military, unfortunately (well, I guess Poe considered mutiny an option, and I was kind of rooting for him after seeing what a dickhead Holdo was).

I absolutely agree. I also believe one of the main issues here is, that the entire sequence to me is symptomatic of weak writing, since the writer’s intentions are not clear. Are we supposed to recoil at Holdo’s responses towards Poe, or is it RJ’s intention to sympathise with Holdo, since Poe has shown himself to be irresponsible? Why does Holdo treat Poe this way to the point that it results in a mutiny, only to tell Leia that she likes him later? Why would she treat someone she apparently likes, and respects this way, to teach him a lesson? If so, is teaching Poe a lesson really worth endangering the entire rebel fleet by letting things spin out of control? These are some of my issues with this entire sequence, even if we agree Holdo is a bad leader, was it RJ’s intention to have her come across as such? If so, why does the entire sequence culminate in Poe realizing he was wrong about her? It seems RJ wants us to side with Poe, and experience the lesson through his eyes, but in my opinion Poe’s actions are justified, considering the situation, and her obvious poor grasp on the situation. As such, it doesn’t matter, if she had the greatest plan in the world, since her poor leadership almost resulted in that plan never becoming a reality. If so, why does the movie present the entire situation, as if she was right all the time, and he was wrong? Surely they shared responsibility for this entire fiasco?

The reel by reel correction is almost finished. I’m sending Stotchy two LUTs with final updates today. It’s looking pretty sweet, if I say so myself. Big thanks to Stotchy for all his hard work rendering the reels, and to Williarob for providing us with such a great source to work with! 😃

Thanks, poita! This is all fascinating stuff!

I actually have another question. Does the process of going from the negative to a release print distort the image in any way? In other words is it technically possible to retrieve a more or less exact copy of the original interpositive by averaging and then deblurring an infinite number of release prints? In general I’m wondering what the limitations are of doing a restoration from a set of release prints, rather than using an interpositive, or the original negative.

poita said:

I think I’ve talked about this paper before.

The main issues with their testing procedure are:

The low contrast test patterns
The projection lenses at the cinemas chosen
The screen textures at the cinemas chosen
The sine wave test patterns used.
The gates and gate pressure of the projectors used.

While the test was worthwhile and produced some useful data, the resolution findings are pretty arbitrary, apart from comparing resolution loss at a relative level between the negative, inter positive, answer print and release prints.
The ‘absolute’ resolution figures are not really useful, all they really tell us is the quality of the projector and screen being used at those particular cinemas.

Also, it is at 1.85:1 so the numbers are off compared to a 2.35:1 or other ratio image.

Had they tested the projection lenses, and the gate pressures and done some analysis of the screens in use, the numbers would have been far more useful.

Cinema presentation varies radically, and gate wear and pressure has a huge effect, as does the light scattering properties of the screen in use, and of course the projection lens, and the lens mount.

As for discerning the resolution of a release print, you can find that out directly and much more accurately by shooting a wider variety of test patterns and then examining the release print with a microscope or a scan of the print.

The resolution discernible in the cinema itself when projected, will be lower than that number, but will vary massively from cinema to cinema, even with the same projector and lens, the wear and aetup and screen properties could halve the discernible resolution compared to different setup.

The resolution present on a release print can easily exceed 1080P. I can show that directly on the scan we just did of the SE, and it isn’t a very sharp print. When projected, well, that number could literally drop to anything, depending on the cinema.

However, even in a terrible cinema, it will look better than a 720P digital projection, the fixed 720P grid will look clearly pixelated at normal projection sizes, whereas even with a poor setup, the release print will look a lot smoother and more detailed, and the effective resolution will be higher due to image information not falling between pixels or being averaged across them.

Great, thanks! I was hoping for an answer like this. 😃

I found an interesting scientific paper on the resolution of 35mm film going from the negative to watching a release print on a movie screen. If I understand correctly, the average discernible resolution by experts of a 35mm film viewed in the theatre is about 720p, but I could be mistaken, so I think poita can probably shed more light on the process used by these people:

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7262540

dahmage said:

fans disappear too

Yes, but unlike those fans, I have had private discussions with these critics. If there are fans out there who feel bullied by the few critics who are left, I would very much like to hear about it.

dahmage said:

Maybe it’s more nuanced than that, and maybe those critical pieces are not very good articles/videos whatever.

Maybe so, but these people wouldn’t know, because they don’t read, or watch them. Critics are condoned in these boards.
You can post your links, but we’re not going to read them anyway, and we’ll let you know, because we don’t serve your kind here. I’ve seen many a critic disappear from these boards for exactly this reason, but you know, whatever…

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

I guess the difference is that Mark didn’t get the Luke or the movie he originally wanted, but he also understands that doesn’t make the movie bad.

The difference with whom? It seems logical to me, that if you dislike a movie, it’s not the movie you wanted. It seems falicious to me, to assume that automatically means the reverse is also true, if someone says TLJ is not the movie they wanted, that must also be the reason they think it is bad. This is what we call a false equivalence. I will do another one:

Since Frink thinks TLJ is good, it must have been exactly the movie he wanted, or more generally, TLJ fans think the movie is good, because it’s exactly the movie they wanted.

you confuse me

Frink has a habit of perpetuating the false belief, that criticism of TLJ stems from not getting what you wanted. He made a similar erroneous statement in response to NeverarGreat’s criticisms yesterday, and now seems to be making another blanket statement, that Mark Hamill is different from some undefined group of people, that in his mind dislike TLJ, solely because they didn’t get the Luke Skywalker they wanted.

maybe he does, maybe he doesn’t. You seem to have a habit of bringing up Luke’s supposed hatred of TLJ to defend your opinions.

I didn’t bring up anything, nor did I imply Mark Hamill hates TLJ. The discussion regarding Mark Hamill was already ongoing, and I haven’t mentioned Mark Hamill’s stance on Luke’s character in TLJ in months, so I don’t really know what you’re getting at. In fact I had not discussed TLJ for months until a discussion about politics in the Solo review thread let to the creation of Jay’s dedicated politics thread.

I do sense a habit of painting critics of the current generation of Star Wars movies and their creators with the same brush, though. The atmosphere here is decidedly unwelcoming with each positive link posted on TLJ being praised to high heaven, and each more critical link met with responses of how we’re not going to read this, and how we don’t need that, or how an percentage of critics is unknowingly a closet misogynist, and a sexist.

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

I guess the difference is that Mark didn’t get the Luke or the movie he originally wanted, but he also understands that doesn’t make the movie bad.

The difference with whom? It seems logical to me, that if you dislike a movie, it’s not the movie you wanted. It seems falicious to me, to assume that automatically means the reverse is also true, if someone says TLJ is not the movie they wanted, that must also be the reason they think it is bad. This is what we call a false equivalence. I will do another one:

Since Frink thinks TLJ is good, it must have been exactly the movie he wanted, or more generally, TLJ fans think the movie is good, because it’s exactly the movie they wanted.

you confuse me

Frink has a habit of perpetuating the false belief, that criticism of TLJ stems from not getting what you wanted. He made a similar erroneous statement in response to NeverarGreat’s criticisms yesterday, and now seems to be making another blanket statement, that Mark Hamill is different from some undefined group of people, that in his mind dislike TLJ, solely because they didn’t get the Luke Skywalker they wanted.

TV’s Frink said:

I guess the difference is that Mark didn’t get the Luke or the movie he originally wanted, but he also understands that doesn’t make the movie bad.

The difference with whom? It seems logical to me, that if you dislike a movie, it’s not the movie you wanted. It seems falicious to me, to assume that automatically means the reverse is also true, if someone says TLJ is not the movie they wanted, that must also be the reason they think it is bad. This is what we call a false equivalence. I will do another one:

Since Frink thinks TLJ is good, it must have been exactly the movie he wanted.

Or more generally:

TLJ fans think the movie is good, because it’s exactly the movie they wanted.

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

George really should have made a trilogy with the OT cast in the late 80’s/early 90’s. That would have been the second coming. Or not.

I’m not sure Hamill is biting the hand. The youtube videos that attempt to read between the lines of Mark’s public statements are on a level with the people who think The Shining is Kubrick’s confession to faking the Moon landings. 😉

I don’t think Mark wants to be the fandom fringe torch bearer either way.

Mark has been open that this wasn’t what he had in mind for the character, but he’s also been equally as open about how much he likes the film. Convenient how the YouTube videos ignore that. Reading between the lines is accurate because they bring his statements beyond what they’re plainly stating to conclusions that he clearly isn’t making, while in reality Mark has always been nothing but outspoken, honest, and straightforward in his opinions.

Remember when someone posted a video here of him and Rian doing some playful banter and tried to pass it off as them hating each other when it clearly showed the opposite?

I got the impression, that he respects RJ as a creator and director, and accepts that the franchise has moved on, and that this may be the best way forward, even if he had a different vision for Luke’s future. However, he has been very vocal about his reservations towards Luke’s arc in the ST, and that he holds those views to this day. He seems to be very close to George Lucas, and has stated many times, that he regrets, that Lucas is no longer involved, and that Lucas had very different plans for his character. So, I think he accepts the current situation, but I can’t help but get the impression, that he would have preferred a very different outcome.

Funny, everytime a TLJ fan posted an article calling critics man babies, toxic, and what not, I’ve read the article to form my own opinion, and argued against it, if I disagreed, but I guess nothing is beneath me.