DrDre

Why you are insisting that learning the force must be difficult is beyond me. That isn’t what we see with Luke. Why should we with Rey? For both characters, there are plenty of obstacles and successes and focusing on Luke’s obstacles while focusing on Rey’s successes is most definitely apples and oranges. Compare their successes (their goals and what they actually achieve) and their failures and both follow the same pattern - some wins, some losses, but generally more wins.

Because Lucas has made this very clear in his statements about how the Force works, which I’m not going to repeat. You have to study, to master it. It’s as simple as that. The entire premise of TESB is, that the Force doesn’t come easy for Luke, and he fails on numerous occasions, and where he succeeds, he rarely succeeds on a first try, and with great effort. Luke leaves Yoda with the clear message, that while he knows the Force, he cannot control it, and facing Vader in this condition is a danger to him physically, and spiritually. He subsequently gets his *** handed to him in his confrontation with Vader, and he ends up hanging on for his life battered hoping that his friends will save him. You don’t have to look hard to see, that Rey’s character gets a very different treatment in the ST. The OT and PT make it very clear, that learning the Force, and becoming a Jedi is very difficult, and just using it half cocked has terrible consequences. For Rey it comes easy, and without consequence. She’s unscathed and in a jolly mood by the end of TLJ, ends up saving the remaining rebels, and is never seriously tempted to use the dark side. That simply doesn’t rhyme with the themes Lucas established in my view. The fact is, that even TLJ acknowledges that Rey is different with the whole darkness rises and light to meet it explanation. She just recieved her powers from the Force free of charge to counter the rising darkness. It’s just very poorly developed, and a rather flimsy concept for throwing Lucas’ themes by the wayside.

screams in the void said:

that’s the thing though ,she starts TLJ in a place of doubt , " I need someone to show me my place in all this ." In the end ,she has cast that doubt aside .She literally has no time to doubt or question her abilities in the moment where she lifts the rocks or people will die . I am not sure what you meant by it happens off screen . If you are referring to her thoughts , I suppose that could be the case but I don’t see how that is relevant . other than comparing it to Luke expressing doubt about lifting the x-wing . And having her use two hands would be to weaken her character in my opinion .

I like this way of thinking, but to me the element that ruins it somewhat is time. The ST takes place over such a short time span, that there really isn’t much opportunity for reflection. Take the end of TESB and the start of ROTJ. Both Luke and Vader have changed, and to me this works, because they have been through an ordeal, especially Luke, and have had time to reflect on it, and to grow. Growth takes time, and effort, whether it is growth of powers, and control, or growth in personality. I think the time issue plagues the ST on multiple levels. For example the FO’s development from threat in the outer rim to oppressive force feels rushed. The story needs time to breath. Without the element of time the Star Wars universe feels small, and its characters are only as much as the sum of the elements presented onscreen.

While I may end up making a few adjustments, here’s a preview video of the opening shots of the Tantive IV sequence:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EVt4oWolRGGatbrMANn2xFI0wJ5lIXOx/view?usp=drivesdk

Voss Caltrez said:

DrDre said:

So, there’s failure from a certain point of view, but from many others she is unrealistically successful (or lucky) given her lack of experience, and naive nature, and she achieves many of these successes with powers that she just almost instantly recieved from on high, and thus hasn’t really earned.

I agree with this.
But I don’t think it would play well if we saw Rey getting beat up like other action heroes tend to be.
Had Rey been rescued by Poe Dameron in a Hoth-like situation, people would accuse the filmmakers of resorting to the damsel-in-destress trope.
If Snoke had been hurling giant pieces of machinery at Rey’s back and head, she gets beaten and bruised with a black eye (ala Luke at the end of ESB) AND she loses the fight, it looks like a display of violence against women, and accusations of misogyny are made.

I don’t think she needed to be rescued, but I also think she might have a little bit more trouble escaping, maybe get a few scratches, and seem a little less jubilant in the battle of Crait. As it is the revelations and her failure don’t really seem to affect her much. Given what happened to her, and the Resistance you would expect a bit more somber and reflective tone, rather than smiles and congratulations.

yotsuya said:

One of my issues is commenting that a strong female character must be strong physically. That has nothing to do with. Ripley in the Alien films is not a strong female character because she psychically beats the aliens, but because she does what has to be done to survive. Leia is similarly strong even though she is not tasked with the same level of physical demands as Ripley. She stands up to Vader and Tarkin. When Luke comes into her cell, she is not excited to see Luke, but excited to hear about Ben Kenobi. Then when Luke and Han don’t seem to have a plan, she makes one. She is passive during the Death Star battle because she is not a fighter pilot. But in the rest of the Trilogy, and the ST, she is obviously in charge and confident. She is not a damsel in distress even when she is a prisoner. Rey is the same way. After the force has awakened in her, she sees what Kylo does and while she can’t escape him she does escape a Stormtrooper (thanks Daniel Craig) which isn’t hard, but it takes her a couple of tries to get it. But Rey is not overly strong, she is competent and skilled and ready to be a Jedi. She does not outshine any of the other characters but comes to the story their equal. When you look at many of the male written strong female characters, they tend to be physically strong and more badass. That type of character gets old. How many people like that do you meet in real life? It is so easy to do wrong. Ripley is done right.

But to further compare Rey to other characters, let’s compare her to Wonder Woman. Rey obviously lack the extreme super powers, but has the force. Wonder Woman really has no physical adversaries in the 2017 film until she encounters Aries and she herself is the instrument of his death. She literally is outshines everyone and as the title character we expect that. Rey is the young Jedi of the ST. As such she can be expected to save the day in IX. She will initiate the solution the finalizes the Star Wars saga. So at her introduction is it any surprise that she is very powerful to start with and only grows more powerful, growing to the point where she is the equal of her adversary, Kylo. Rey actually has more setbacks than Wonder Woman and is far less powerful and less able to provide the solutions to all the problems. Plus she had the baggage of the abandonment and need for a parental figure.

I think one of the biggest mistakes is to not recognize that Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo are the main characters of the ST. Rey takes Luke’s role from the OT. Rey is supposed to grow into the Jedi Knight who wins the day. They are taking her through all the stages of the heroes’ journey over the 3 film trilogy rather than over a single film. Kylo is her unwitting teacher and Luke, the one she wants to teach her, refuses to do much beyond the basics and some politics.

So Rey is not an overly physical strong character but is capable and is the main character and therefor supposed to outshine the others. She has setback after setback in what she wants to do as the story (which you can read as the force) pushes her to her destiny. She is exactly the type of strong character we need and definitely not a Mary Sue.

The problem is, that her setbacks don’t really have any consequences for her. She fails to convert Kylo and beat Snoke in a direct confrontation, which might be considered a failure, if not for the fact that she only just learned about the Force a few days ago. Would you consider a novice who steps into the ring or the first time, facing a boxing champion, and gets out of the ring without a scratch a failure? The fact is, she does play an important part in getting Ben Solo to turn on his master, even if it doesn’t end up the way she expected, she easily resists Kylo’s temptation, she fights Kylo to a stand still for the lightsaber after beating Snoke’s elite guards in a team effort, she escapes from the lion’s den without a scratch, and ends up saving the remains of the Resistance from certain doom only to join them in a weird sort of celebration aboard the Millenium Falcon. So, there’s failure from a certain point of view, but from many others she is unrealistically successful (or lucky) given her lack of experience, and naive nature, and she achieves many of these successes with powers that she just almost instantly recieved from on high, and thus hasn’t really earned.

Voss Caltrez said:

Shopping Maul said:

I can’t for the life of me understand why these people didn’t think to write a story first!

That’s how it feels at times.
But couldn’t the same be said of the OT?
It feels like Lucas was making it up as he went along.
ANH: Vader and Luke’s father are clearly different people.
ESB: Lucas decides he wants a twist in the story and makes Vader Luke’s father. And just some insurance to get you hooked for the final film, he has Yoda say, “there is another.”
ROTJ: Oh crap, how do we resolve Yoda’s line? Okay how about a twin sister? And make her be Leia.

And although I think Luke was more relatable in his failings compared to Rey, couldn’t he be seen as having aspects of a Marty Stu?
Obi-Wan gives him one brief lesson on the Millennium Falcon, and suddenly he’s able to use the Force and destroy the Death Star with it?
How did he learn telekinesis at the beginning of ESB?
As a kid I always assumed that Luke went back to Dagobah to finish his training before he went to rescue Han and that’s why he was more powerful. Rewatching it, that’s not the case. He returns to finish his training after all that went down, and Yoda just tells him, “nah, you’re training is finished, you just need to kill Vader and then you’ll be a Jedi.”
I always got the impression that to become a Jedi there had to be rigorous training involved, and looking back, Luke has very little training. At least they could have written it so that Luke DID continue his training with Yoda between ESB and the beginning of ROTJ.

I agree certain story elements of the OT were rushed, with ROTJ being the worst offender, as Lucas obviously wanted to finish the story in the third installment. However, the OT has the advantage of the story being spread out over a number of years with Luke being able to hone his skills through self-study. The fact that TFA and TLJ takes place over a matter of days leaves little room for study and reflection, and so Rey almost instantly goes from being a newbie to standing toe to toe with Kylo and lifting a ton of bolders, which to me highlights the rushed nature of the ST both in terms of the story and its development.

Shopping Maul said:

I think this is a good attempt at explaining the ‘Mary Sue’ issue - and it’s short too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2sar9BAyvU

I agree with his assessment. I also feel there’s a clash of creative choices in the ST regarding Rey. I liked Rey in TFA. She was self-reliant, and even if I felt she was generally just a little to good at everything, Daisy Ridley gave her a vulnurability, that made her endearing. Like many people out there, I expected a good explanation for her sudden Force abilities in TLJ, and thus conditionally accepted them. Except it never came. While the whole anyone can be a Jedi/Rey is a nobody angle seems like a good idea on paper, it doesn’t mesh well with the setup in TFA imo. The darkness rises and light to meet it explanation seems contrived, underdeveloped, and a cheap shortcut in Rey’s development, such that we can focus on Luke and Kylo, and have a ROTJ like throne room confrontation in the middle chapter, which sees Rey being evenly matched with Kylo, despite the fact that she only learned about the Force a few days earlier, and Luke has taught her very little, aside from telling her the Jedi suck. The explanation for her sudden rise in power is just too thin, making Kylo seem weak by comparison, and no attempt is made to make it fit into existing canon. Like the FO’s unlimited resources, and Snoke’s ascension, it’s just pulled out of thin air, and we’re supposed to be entertained enough to ignore the undercooked nature of these story developments. It seems even the creators realized this, when they introduced the idea of Rey downloading the know how from Kylo’s mind in the novel.

Can we please get back to discussing content? These personal beefs and insults are really tiring to read. Thank you!

For those interested, the colors for the technicolor frames look more yellow and warmer:

I went back to my technicolor reference frames for color, brightness and contrast, and feel these are closest to the look and feel of the frames minus the technicolor yellow/green cast:

I’ve also obtained another reference, that is consistent with these shots in terms of hues, that along with the other references will be used to color grade 4k77. To be continued…

I think the issue here is, that even if film stills were used in the book, there’s no reason to assume the colors are accurate. For one both the scanning and printing would introduce inaccuracies. Then there’s the fact that the colors were likely adjusted to look appealing in the book, and not so much match the film. Just look at the Topps cards, which often contain many film stills, but none of them look like the real thing, with colors often balanced, or altered. The reality is that these photos are likely no more accurate than any of the telecines, where the colors can be in the ballpark, if the operator was going for accuracy, but usually are not .

Thanks! 😃

Thank you!

Thanks everybody! 😊

Thanks a lot! 😊

Ronster said:

DrDre said:

towne32 said:

screams in the void said:

fair enough , would the moderators object to me starting a thread about this topic so as not to further derail this thread ? also , my apologies to the op .I have not heard any thing regarding this issue from him . maybe he is on vacation ? and I am open to topic name suggestions

The OP has a new baby (or one on the way)! So the exact opposite of a vacation. 😛

I can’t imagine the mods would object to a new topic, though.

Yes, my little boy has been born. 😃 The discussion is interesting though, so a new topic would be great!

At least you have now Released something 😉

Well done congratulations!

Thanks! 😛

ZigZig said:

Congrats and welcome to BabyDre!

Thanks! 😁

towne32 said:

screams in the void said:

fair enough , would the moderators object to me starting a thread about this topic so as not to further derail this thread ? also , my apologies to the op .I have not heard any thing regarding this issue from him . maybe he is on vacation ? and I am open to topic name suggestions

The OP has a new baby (or one on the way)! So the exact opposite of a vacation. 😛

I can’t imagine the mods would object to a new topic, though.

Yes, my little boy has been born. 😃 The discussion is interesting though, so a new topic would be great!

Turisu said:

Didn’t Mike Verta say that the Tantive walls were very white but with a hint of mint? The photo makes them appear very yellow.

The early shots on Tantive IV are generally warmer than the later ones, and the hint of mint is subtle, but noticable.

Hal 9000 said:

DrDre, have you ever put out a rudimentary color corrected version of the BluRay?

No, I haven’t. 😉

hairy_hen said:

Everything looks very yellow/orange now, and too much blue has been taken out of the image. It just doesn’t look right…

The technicolor print is very yellow and warm in its tones. All the technicolor frames I have confirm this, as do the color calibrated photos Mike Verta shared of a projected technicolor print.

Some of my frames:

Three of the Mike Verta photos:

So, although the colors might take some getting used to, I believe they are quite accurate.

Here’s an update of those shots:

Williarob said:

If this thread is about color correcting 4K77, why are you using the Bluray as your source? I mean, I understand that once it’s corrected you’ll match 4K77 to it, but isn’t that extra work - having to deal with the magenta instead of just adjusting the actual target colors?

That’s why I’m actually not that worried about the magenta, because it won’t show up for 4k77 anyway. The reason I’m using the bluray is 3-fold:

1. I don’t have access right now to the 4k77 for a few days.
2. At this stage I’m simply creating reference frames, so it doesn’t really matter what source I’m using.
3. I will also be using these reference frames to correct the bluray (preferably using Neverar’s color grading as a source), and so I want to also see where the challenges are for those frames, since if the bluray can be done, 4k77 will be a peace of cake.

Shopping Maul said:

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

It’s the fans that don’t like it…

Seems a fair few fans do like it (TLJ).
 

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

yotsuya said:

Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished.

He didn’t seem to be comparing the levels of criticism to both Empire and TLJ - just that some people’s opinions may have changed after Jedi was released and time was taken to reevaluate the Original Trilogy as a whole.

Seems reasonable, that.

rodneyfaile just helpfully posted some additional reviews on Empire he found - doesn’t seem either he or yotsuya were comparing the differences between fan reviews and those of ‘professional’ film critics either.
 

I just think it’s a bit of a ‘Flying Spaghetti Monster’ argument. I’ve seen bad reviews of Citizen Kane. It doesn’t mean I’m going to extrapolate that Transformers Revenge of the Fallen might someday be lauded as genius because Citizen Kane also got some bad reviews. The timing, tone, circumstances etc surrounding TESB are nothing like what has happened with TLJ. I think the comparison is flawed.

I don’t actually care (just like I didn’t care about critics or bad press when I was a kid) but I’d prefer we discussed the movies on their own merits without this ‘TESB was also controversial’ meme. There was no ‘space Leia’ moment in TESB. No-one felt that Luke’s character arc had been betrayed or that general Rieeken was withholding information for no good reason or that Bespin was a waste of time. Let’s stay on point.

Flying Spaghetti Monster argument? Citizen Kane? Extrapolating Revenge Of The Fallen? What…?

In the context of me saying ‘yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished’ the point has been missed by quite some distance. No worries, I’ll leave it there.

Sorry, I’m probably not making my point very well. The ‘flying spaghetti monster’ is a response to shifting the burden of proof in matters of religious faith/discussion. A person of Faith will say “you can’t prove God doesn’t exist” and a skeptic will respond with “well, by that same measure you can’t prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn’t exist”. It’s a way of exposing the fallacy of this type of argument.

Not that this Star Wars stuff is in the same ballpark, but this TESB thing is an annoying meme that has gained lots of internet traction as some kind of clever slam-dunk for the merits of TLJ. Yes, people’s opinions may change when TLJ is viewed in the context of a completed trilogy, but so what? We can’t possibly know what people will think of TLJ years from now. TESB existed in an entirely different context. If the criticisms were actually similar (plotholes, Luke’s character ruined, pointless side-plots, overuse of humour, canon violations, perceived virtue-signalling etc etc) then we could extrapolate something at least slightly meaningful. But in this instance it’s about as ridiculous as my comparing Citizen Kane to Transformers.

I understand what’s being said here (and I have zero desire to insult anyone on these boards - let me be absolutely clear about that!). One of my favourite films, Conan 1982, was given some lousy feedback in its day and has since garnered an impressive reputation as a giant in the genre. So yes, it can and does happen. But we won’t know until it happens (it may be go the opposite way for all we know) and I just don’t think the comparison is a particularly valid one.

I think the fallacy is in the idea, that much of the criticism against the ST is based on nostalgia from the past and expectations that stem from previous installments. However, unlike the previous two trilogies, which can both be considered reasonable starting points for watching the Skywalker saga, episode IV being the one that started it all, and episode I being the actual beginning, the ST will never really stand on its own. As such those that watch TLJ in the more distant future will still watch it with expectations based on the previous episodes. In this context it’s important to point out that a lot of criticism against TLJ also came from those who felt it didn’t provide satisfactory answers to the mystery boxes introduced by TFA, so criticism against TLJ isn’t linked specifically to OT nostalgia. As such, those that like the Skywalker saga enough to eventually watch TLJ will generally have a similar reaction to it that the current generations have only with less extremes. I conjecture that unless episode 9 really manages to provide an overarching theme for the saga, and the story of Rey and the ST characters continues, the ST will be seen as superfluous, being overall too similar to the OT to really be considered a worthwhile continuation of the essentially completed story of episodes 1 through 6. The hate for TLJ will die out, but it won’t be loved either. Considering Abrams will likely attempt to bring the ST more in line with his original vision as set out by TFA and the rest of the saga, TLJ will forever be considered the odd one out for better or for worse.

I agree. And while I think time will smooth out some of TLJ’s rough edges, I still maintain that Canto Bight, space Leia, and Holdo’s communication issues will go the way of Jar Jar Binks, “I don’t like sand”, and “she’s lost the will to live”. I don’t foresee a ‘fine wine’ scenario with this stuff.

It will be interesting to see if Abrams can make this trilogy seem ‘necessary’ given how conclusively RoTJ ended the series. I think it’ll take more than the current ‘the Empire was defeated and then grew back again’ vibe of the SE to make it feel like an intrinsic part of a 9-film saga.

I think the ST biggest problem is, that it hasn’t provided any story point that underlines the relevance of this trilogy to the larger story, by for example providing a bigger bad guy with strong links to the past. In stead Snoke was turned into a plot device, and his replacement Kylo Ren is essentially presented as a highly emotional bad egg who for some unknown reason was seduced by said plot device, despite growing up in a loving family. As such, there’s very little connective tissue between the first six episodes and the ST other than the idea that sometimes things don’t work out the way you want, and a lot can happen in thirty years, which are hardly compelling story developments. As a consequence there’s good to be found in the moment, and in the way these characters interact, but in terms of the bigger picture it’s pretty muddied. So, Abrams has the difficult task of making this trilogy not just powerful in its own right, but relevant to the saga as a whole.

Valheru_84 said:

Now that you mention it Catbus there does seem to be a noticeable shift to an overall pink tone felt in the images and you can see the white cloth Han is holding in that same shot has a slightly pink hue to it.

Overall the samples look great even though there is a subtle but noticeable pink cast to it all.

Val

I don’t see any pink cast in the other frames, but the pink in the docking bay shot stems from the bluray:

As Neverar noted, it’s pretty easy to get rid off. I’ll adjust it for the next batches of frames.