DrDre

tfshirty said:

DrDre said:

I just don’t find it believable, that a man who believed his father could be redeemed, a father who had been a true monster, guilty of the death of millions, would even for an instant contemplate killing his newphew, long enough to ignite his lightsaber, his sister, and best friend’s son, a boy who had done nothing, but have dark thoughts.

Yes, Luke believed his father could be redeemed. It’s also fair to assume that Luke believed he could right the troubled Ben Solo ship.

But it’s important to remember that as soon as Vader threatened Leia, in ROTJ, those thoughts of redeeming went out the window. His fear of losing someone he loved was too great and he reacted with violence. He nearly killed the man he wished to save.

The same goes for Ben, and Luke says why he ignited his lightsaber in the film: “Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it.” It isn’t just dark thoughts. It’s his heart, his future, and premonitions of darkness to come. (Which is believable considering what we have seen from Ben/Kylo so far in the ST. Plus, he killed his master and became the head bad guy, which is something Vader never did). Most of all, it’s a threat to everything Luke loves and, like in ROTJ, he instinctively reacts in fear.

In both cases he’s left ashamed of his actions.

And yes, the future is always in motion, too. Luke didn’t listen to Yoda in TESB. But I think right after he quickly and instinctively reacts over Ben, he remembers that this is his nephew and that the future isn’t set in stone. Unfortunately, it’s too late.

Good post! Allow me to retort. In defending TLJ’s handling of Luke many fans point to Luke’s flaws in the OT to argue that the character’s portrayal in TLJ is consistent with the OT. In my view that perspective misses the point of the OT entirely. The point where the characters are at the end of ROTJ is not defined by their flaws, as shown throughout the OT, it is defined by them overcoming those flaws. You say Luke attacked his father with a fury, after Vader threatened his sister. True, but and it’s a big but, there’s the pivotal moment, where Luke looks at his own mechanical hand, and at his cyborg father, and realizes what he might become. He steps back and learns from his mistakes. In that moment the character is transformed, and becomes a Jedi. To have Luke make the same mistake with Ben, that he made with his father, negates much of his character arc in the OT, and specifically ROTJ. That is where the problem is. It’s not that Luke makes a new mistake, and learns from it. He makes the same mistake, and seemingly forgets everything his entire arc in the OT was about, most importantly the Jedi teachings, and on that faulty basis becomes the anti-thesis of what his character represented in the OT. In that moment he regresses from the Jedi he was at the end of the OT to the reckless, impulsive character he was before, a man driven by fear, a fear for a possible future not becoming of a Jedi, not becoming of Luke Skywalker at the end of his character arc in the OT.

This is a recurring issue with the ST, where the classic characters and the plot developments regress, such that a similar story can be told with new characters. The victory of the rebels is undone, such that we can have Empire versus rebels again. Han again becomes a smuggler, who wants nothing to do with galactic politics, and conflict, and is a bad husband, and poor father to boot. Luke becomes that impulsive boy again, always looking to the horizon, and adds cynisism to his list of flaws. Leia is stripped from her connections to the other classic characters along with her royal heritage, and becomes almost solely defined by her mission, spurring Han to seek out their son, and Rey to seek out Luke. It is through these developments, that the ST diminishes the OT’s story, its characters, and their bond, carefully built up over the course of three films, and all in the service of giving the audience a thusfar very familiar story, a remix of what came before.

OutboundFlight said:

We are digging into this way too much. If Rey offers Ben the lightsaber, he could accept it or refuse it. Either way would have the same meaning: that he has been redeemed, and is either worthy or Rey is worthy.

I disagree. I think redemption should not be so easy. Just say you’re sorry for the death of millions, and you get your lightsaber back as if nothing has happened. In my view Ben Solo should take responsibility for his actions, if he lives.

nl0428 said:

Sir Ridley said:

This got me thinking. If Ben is redeemed, I think it would make sense if the saber went to him. Ben accepting and turning it on would be a powerful visual, showing his turn to the light and perhaps remind us of the scene where Luke gets the saber from Obi-Wan, with unknown adventures ahead. It would symbolize the hero and the Skywalker within him. “It belongs to me” would get a new meaning. The saber being broken but repaired would of course symbolize Ben himself, especially since it was repaired by Rey much like Ben might be. Rey handing the saber to Ben would be a callback to her handing it to Luke, and Ben accepting it would symbolize him giving Rey the belonging she was searching for in Luke. “It belongs to you”, she might say, tying their story arches together.

That would be pretty great and epic if you ask me.

I don’t think I would like that. If the ST has one core theme, I would say that lineage is not important. It’s the choices you make. Rey has thusfar made the right choices, whilst Ben made the wrong ones. Rey should be the one who builds a new future on that basis. For Ben to be redeemed, he should recognize this. It is not his birth right. He doesn’t deserve that lightsaber. She might offer it to him, but he should reject it imo.

DominicCobb said:

Yeah you’re definitely closer to what I’m trying to say.

Basically, the argument is that (as RL stated earlier) Rey is of “purer intent” than Kylo - she’s fighting for the light and him the dark. He had a chance to take the mantle of ‘hero Skywalker’ but chose the dark path. The saber represents and recalls the weapon of the savior of the galaxy, in the PT it belongs to the “one who will bring balance,” and in the OT it belongs to the “last hope.” In the ST, the saber is metaphorical of the new mission to reignite the spark of hope and take up the fight (this is pretty explicit in TLJ, less so TFA because of rewrites). Kylo wants the saber because of his birthright, but what it represents doesn’t belong to him, it belongs to Rey. So when the lightsaber goes into Rey’s hand and not Kylo’s, in my mind the literal question of “how did it get there?” -whether the answer is that Rey is stronger in the force, Kylo was caught off guard, or the force is exerting its will - doesn’t matter. What matters is the figurative meaning of the scene - Rey has finally taken up the saber and the mantle it represents which she initially rejected, and which at this point she is more deserving of than Kylo due to who she is, and not who her parents are.

Nice one Dom! Great post! You made me appreciate TFA more!

I for one will miss you Jay in the discussions, and your stewardship, but I understand your decision. Thanks for all you’ve done for the site, and for many lively discussions!

Good luck to the mods! We are in very capable hands!

Ps. I will start donating.

RogueLeader said:

Haha, I love the way they’re holding hands in a circle.

I do think the Imperial officers would have tried to usurp Vader if Vader had took Palpatine’s place. The Imperial beauracracy respected and feared the Emperor, and he knew how to manipulate them, but Vader only has fear.

And Dre, I see what you’re saying about Kylo. I always saw his training that he needed to complete was more of a test of his spirit rather than of actual skills. Killing Han didn’t have the effect that Kylo thought it would, and Snoke sensed that, so the whole thing with Rey was another test. I don’t think Kylo’s loss to Rey had nothing to do with skill, but with mindset.

This carries forward with his instability in front of Luke. With the prospect of Rey joining him after Snoke’s death, that was when he was the most confident. But Rey refusing to join him, plus Luke’s sudden appearance, shows that Kylo really hasn’t let the past die, as much as he wants to. If he had, he would have saw through Luke’s illusion and destroyed the Resistance, but his anger and resentment blinded him. He couldn’t let go of the past. So yes, it was a regression. The ending of the film I think demonstrates just how miserable the dark side makes you.

I personally would’ve toned down some of the humor with Hux a little, but I think how all that will be seen going forward partially relies on what Hux will be like in IX. I also think they could’ve tried to touch briefly on the dynamic between the old Imperial guard and the First Order generation, and the tension between them. It could’ve added to Hux’s story a little. I do think Hux seems to have learned from his overconfidence a little by the end of TLJ, like when he tries to tell Kylo not to lose track of their goal by facing Luke one-on-one. And that last look Hux seems to be giving Kylo. It definitely gives a sinister vibe, like they could be setting up something, but I guess we’ll see if JJ carries that forward in IX.

The way RJ handle’s character does make me think his new trilogy will be really character driven, but then again, I think the middle chapter of trilogies can be inherently like that. I would bet his trilogy will be smaller-scale and character driven, but then again he might want to go in a totally different direction than the story he told in TLJ.

I do really hope people will give it a chance since it will be brand new characters. But even if people aren’t fond of it, will also have B&W’s trilogy and all the TV shows, so I think there’ll be something for everybody.

Great post! I too am curious where JJ will take the characters, including Hux. Hux betraying Kylo would be an interesting direction. I also am curious where RJ will take his trilogy. I do hope it will be character driven like you.

RogueLeader said:

What should his training have involved, in your opinion?

Also, thumbs up for the Dr. Evil meme.

I think the idea of Kylo killing Snoke is a good one, and I mostly like the execution, but their relationship should have been developed more, which might have involved some training, and unlocking previously hidden powers. It might have been revealed, that Snoke in reality fears Ben Solo’s power, and put measures in place to limit that power. I also think Ben should have grown up, and not still be the emo kid he was in the previous film. His screaming towards Luke felt like regression to me after he seemed quite composed following the death of Snoke.

screams in the void said:

DrDre said:

screams in the void said:

or Hux was just always an overly hateful whiny bitch whose bark was bigger than his bite from the very start and the intent was for the audience to feel a bit of catharsis watching him get his come uppance and be exposed for the punk he really is

Thus leaving only the very emo Kylo Ren as the face of evil, making the FO seem far less capable and threatening than ever before. That doesn’t seem like a smart move for setting up the final installment of the saga, although it does explain the very postive attitude of those aboard the Millenium Falcon. With the opposition only relying on superior numbers, led by an emotionally instable Supreme Leader, who Rey’s already beaten once, the good guys can’t lose.

I will just leave this here …http://colleenhenry.blogspot.com/2007/05/awesome-kevin-smith-comment-about-star.html

Well, even if mostly “weird emo” kids turn evil, something I don’t necessarily agree with, since greed and lust for power are pretty generic vices in the human experience, it takes many years for a disturbed kid like Anakin, or Ben to develop into a methodical, and cunning villain like Darth Vader, or a demonic puppet master like Palpatine, and Snoke. So, I maintain that while Kylo Ren works as the conflicted villain at the side of a powerful evil entity, he’s far less effective as the main villain, mostly because of the way his character developed over the course of the ST:

In TFA Kylo Ren was deliberately set up as a seemingly methodical super bad, a Darth Vader subsitute, but was ultimately revealed to be something of a poser, an emotionally volatile, and conflicted wannabe, in serious need of more training, and who was ultimately fairly easily bested by the newbie Rey, even if he was wounded at the time. However, that training never happened, and through circumstances, and Snoke’s stupidity, he was able to dispatch his far more powerful and imposing master. The only other villain of the ST was Hux (since Phasma was never a serious threat to begin with), an extremist, who at his young age, served as a Tarkin surrogate, but sadly TLJ turned him into a complete joke, who despite having achieved much on paper, in TLJ comes across as a caricature of an imperial officer, mostly played for laughs. So, the only serious villain left is Kylo Ren, who by the end of TLJ is as petty, and unstable as ever, almost foaming at the mouth when he tells Luke he will kill everyone, like some petulant child in need of a good spanking. So, while TLJ had several interesting plot developments, the FO presents only a fraction of the threat the Empire respresented imo, since the only competent, and imposing face of evil was cut in half by his far less accomplished apprentice. Thus, in my view the FO needs a more grounded and methodical villain to balance Kylo Ren’s volatile nature. Let’s hope Abrams can provide one, and add some much needed menace to the FO, since RJ has disqualified Hux, as far as I’m concerned.

screams in the void said:

or Hux was just always an overly hateful whiny bitch whose bark was bigger than his bite from the very start and the intent was for the audience to feel a bit of catharsis watching him get his come uppance and be exposed for the punk he really is

Thus leaving only the very emo Kylo Ren as the face of evil, making the FO seem far less capable and threatening than ever before. That doesn’t seem like a smart move for setting up the final installment of the saga, although it does explain the very postive attitude of those aboard the Millenium Falcon. With the opposition only relying on superior numbers, led by an emotionally instable Supreme Leader, who Rey’s already beaten once, the good guys can’t lose.

DominicCobb said:

I think there’s plenty of humor in the OT that is somewhat meta and dresses down the typical conventions of genre films. Maybe not to the extent of the ST but I find the humor in the latter trilogy to be a not unnatural extension. It’s funny because I’d say the attitude of “Don’t worry, even the characters in the movie know this is a bit silly” is something that can be found in the original film and one of the things I love about it. Obviously you take that too far and you’ve undercut the world you’re building but I truly am not sure where TLJ supposedly did that.

I can. General Hux, who was presented as a complete fanatic, a competitor for Kylo Ren, and one of the people in charge of the FO, became a complete joke in TLJ. The ST had three main villains Kylo Ren, Snoke, and Hux. Out of those three one villain was killed, while another was turned into a laughing stock, first with the yo momma joke, which made Hux seem incompetent, and non-threatening. Then there’s the humorous way Snoke chastised his subordinate, which at first glance would make Snoke seem very powerful, but considering Snoke ends up dead, it ultimately only serves to make Hux seem like a sniveling weakling. Then there’s the way Kylo throws Hux around like a rag doll at the end of the movie, and there are a number of other scenes, where Hux comes across as a parody of an imperial officer, rather than a true menacing villain.

The faces of two complete baffoons, one was in the right movie, the other in the wrong one imo:

There was a mutual respect between Tarkin and Vader in An New Hope, which supported the idea, that both these villains are threatening, and competent in their own way, Vader with brute force, and Tarkin with his intellect. Even in TESB, they never made Admiral Piett seem like a joke for example. While Vader killed several of his underlings, this mostly served to make Vader seem powerful and feared, but never in such a way that the imperial officers seem like incompetent fools. This approach made Admiral Piett an effective bad guy in ROTJ, where he actually seemed far more comfortable in his position than in TESB. I really can’t take General Hux seriously any more after TLJ. He’s been relegated to being the Alfred of the ST:

RogueLeader said:

I totally get that, I can be that way too. And I do like the new films and I also know they aren’t perfect either. There are good and bad moments in them for sure, but I still like them overall despite my own criticisms. And I’m not trying to say, “One day you’ll understand!”, but I maybe eventually you’ll have a moment where you’re like, “Oh, I get it now.”

While I came out of the theater enjoying the movie, there have been times where I’ve listen/read to a lot of criticism and wondered if I was wrong, but eventually I came to my own conclusion about why it works for me, that I’ve since heard from others who enjoy the film. So, you might always hold the feeling you would have done it differently, but hopefully you can appreciate it for what it is more overtime, so you’ll be able to enjoy the saga as a whole more (I can’t recall what your opinion on the prequels are).

And even then, I still think that maybe dialogue could have been worked on here or there to make certain ideas clearer to more fans in general. I think most fans are cool with the general shape of the movie, they just would have liked it more if certain ideas were executed either a bit clearer or with more subtlety.

So, even if some people will never like TLJ as-is, I think maybe some eventual TLJ fan edits might be able to help bridge that gap for them.

Then again, there are also films that just gain more appreciation from an audience overtime, so it might be too early to say certain things could’ve been done differently. I think a big part of it is just gonna be time, when people can look at these movies more in retrospect.

Speaking of which, I don’t see you on the fan editing side of this site as much as I see you on the discussion or preservation sides. Are you into fan edits outside of preservations? You may have discussed these things before on here in the past but I’d be interested if you had any ideas for certain fixes TLJ could have done to make the movie work more for you. That might not be your cup of tea, and I’d get it if it’s not.

To be honest I have never completely watched a fan edit, outside of the Despecialized Editions. I view a movie as the translation of a director’s vision. I enjoy analyzing the concepts and ideas, and their execution. For example I enjoy the PT mostly for the concepts, and Lucas’ wildly imaginative vision, but dislike how it was executed. In the same way I respect RJ’s vision for this movie, even if I don’t agree with every aspect of that vision, or how it was executed. So, while I appreciate the effort put into fan edits, and enjoy watching some of it, I generally prefer the original version, even if I don’t like many aspects of it, because it is the result of a multi-year creative process, that someone put their heart and soul into. It is a window into that creative process, and the time during which it was made. In a way Mark Hamill’s comments, particulary in the documentaries included with the film, are part of that creative process, and so the movie not only reflects the creative choices, but also what could have been. TLJ through its story mechanisms actually puts a lot of emphasis on the what could have been. It’s part of its DNA. It’s the risk of relying heavily on plot twists, that a viewer may remain attached to a certain story thread, even if the director’s intent was to misdirect. For example to his credit RJ makes it plausible that Rey and Ben join forces after Snoke’s death, and then subverts the expectations created by the film, by having Rey and Ben revert to their previous states, and so their union becomes a what could have been, an outcome that I probably would have preferred.

RogueLeader said:

Dr. Dre, while I disagree with you on a lot of your opinions on The Last Jedi, I like how you at least can explain the reasons why you don’t agree with certain things the movie did in a very articulated way. I can tell you’ve thought about it a lot. I can totally understand that viewpoint. I’m sure I would be of the same mindset too if it hadn’t clicked for me, personally.

Thanks for your kind response! 😃 The thing is, there’s a part of me, that enjoys many aspects of TLJ, and begs me to overlook some of the things I have issues with. On some days I give in, and I get that feeling in my stomach I used to have as a kid watching Star Wars when watching certain scenes, on other days I’m in a more critical mood.

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

Mark should have got an Oscar nomination at least. He’s always had the acting chops. If not for the shadow of Luke hanging over him in the 80’s, he could have been cast in the Amadeus film after doing the role on Broadway.

It’s easily the best performance I’ve seen from him. Kinda weird that he still has sour grapes about the direction considering how great the role was, but then I guess if you look at the full quote he understands how lucky he is to have gotten another crack it at all. Another trilogy with the old cast as the stars was never gonna happen at this point, and if it did, it would have probably sucked.

I think most critics recognize Mark’s great performance, while still not liking the direction the saga has taken. I think it’s his best performance in the saga, but I just don’t buy the change in Luke’s character. It’s a great character, just not Luke Skywalker in my mind.

Do you really not buy it because it’s not believable? Or do you just not want to buy it out of stubbornness because you would have preferred something different? We’re talking a 30 year gap and a lot of experience and development in the interim for Luke. Frankly, it would’ve been less believable if he hadn’t changed.

I just don’t find it believable, that a man who believed his father could be redeemed, a father who had been a true monster, guilty of the death of millions, would even for an instant contemplate killing his newphew, long enough to ignite his lightsaber, his sister, and best friend’s son, a boy who had done nothing, but have dark thoughts. I also don’t find it believable that he would see a solution in exiling himself, waiting to die, while Snoke and Kylo Ren were still at large. It is the obvious choice to try and stop Snoke and Kylo. If Luke fails, he dies, which means he will get his wish of ending the Jedi, if he wins, he can still go to an island to die. So, for me the movie failed to provide a proper motivation for Luke to be so emotionally compromised, that he would forget his Jedi training, knowing the future is always in motion, and raise his lightsaber above a young boy’s head. It also failed to explain why from Luke’s perspective letting Snoke and Kylo run free without a Jedi to challenge them would be the best solution for the galaxy. Had the movie shown that Ben Solo had hurt a loved one, I might have bought Luke’s reaction in Ben’s bedroom. Had the movie shown, that Luke tried to stop Snoke and Kylo, but failed, because he couldn’t hurt his sister, and best friend’s son, and only barely escaped with his life, I might have bought his exile, but TLJ did neither. It just says Luke’s different now, deal with it. That’s not good enough for me. Major character changes should imo happen on screen, not between films.

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

Mark should have got an Oscar nomination at least. He’s always had the acting chops. If not for the shadow of Luke hanging over him in the 80’s, he could have been cast in the Amadeus film after doing the role on Broadway.

It’s easily the best performance I’ve seen from him. Kinda weird that he still has sour grapes about the direction considering how great the role was, but then I guess if you look at the full quote he understands how lucky he is to have gotten another crack it at all. Another trilogy with the old cast as the stars was never gonna happen at this point, and if it did, it would have probably sucked.

I think most critics recognize Mark’s great performance, while still not liking the direction the saga has taken. I think it’s his best performance in the saga, but I just don’t buy the change in Luke’s character. It’s a great character, just not Luke Skywalker in my mind.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Aye, as from the original interview with DenOfGeek promoting the Knightfall tv series with some anecdotes on Star Wars and his life…

He’s made his peace with any unfulfilled expectations. ‘Listen, I never expected to come back. We had a beginning, a middle, and an end. That’s what I said: why mess with it? It’s not something that worries me, because it’s all about the new generation, as it should be.’

^ though for some reason that part of the DenOfGeek interview didn’t make it into the Esquire piece.

 

I did enjoy reading this from Hamill’s own twitter re the scene with Carrie in TLJ…

https://twitter.com/HamillHimself/status/1102308766672805889
 

That certainly was a great moment in the film, as was Mark’s wink to C-3PO.

And the R2 on the Falcon scene - don’t forget the R2 on the Falcon scene 😃

Indeed! 😃

oojason said:

Aye, as from the original interview with DenOfGeek promoting the Knightfall tv series with some anecdotes on Star Wars and his life…

He’s made his peace with any unfulfilled expectations. ‘Listen, I never expected to come back. We had a beginning, a middle, and an end. That’s what I said: why mess with it? It’s not something that worries me, because it’s all about the new generation, as it should be.’

^ though for some reason that part of the DenOfGeek interview didn’t make it into the Esquire piece.

 

He’s made his peace with it, yet can’t resist the urge to once again criticize the creators’ choices. TLJ is, what it is. It doesn’t mean, that in a perfect world there could have been an episode VIII that was loved by the vast majority of fans including Hamill himself, and would not stir up so much controversy. You hope to love it, but you end up making peace with it.

I did enjoy reading this from Hamill’s own twitter re the scene with Carrie in TLJ…

https://twitter.com/HamillHimself/status/1102308766672805889
 

That certainly was a great moment in the film, as was Mark’s wink to C-3PO.

rodneyfaile said:

The new trilogy isn’t about Luke, it’s about the next generation.

That becomes clear from the films, but that wasn’t the only option, nor was the execution of the “passing the torch” concept set in stone. As far as I can tell he doesn’t have a problem with passing the torch, but he does have a problem with its execution. It also appears through various interviews in the past, that he is also privy to Lucas’ intentions with his character, which appear to clash with what was put in the films, and he’s conflicted about that.

Alec Guinness was a great actor, but he didn’t go on and on abut wanting to be the focus of the trilogy. He was killed off in one movie and was a Force ghost in the other two. Mark still needs more training. “Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.”

That doesn’t seem a fair comparison, as Alec Guiness and the Obi-Wan character was a side character to begin with. Luke Skywalker was a main character in the OT. We watched that story unfold through Luke’s eyes, and Mark lived through that. It seems logical that many people including Hamill himself have grown attached to these characters. Some of us simply feel these characters’ arcs in the OT were sacrificed in order to push new characters into the limelight, and that these new characters aren’t up to snuff in a setting is way too contrived, and familiar, because the powers that be feel that a Star Wars trilogy without Empire vs rebels, x-wings, and tie-fighters is a harder sell to the general audience.

I guess some of us fans are not the only ones with difficulty letting go of our mixed feelings towards the ST:

“Mark Hamill Doubles Down On His Complaints About the New Star Wars Trilogy”

https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a26650640/mark-hamill-last-jedi-force-awakens-complaints/

Valheru_84 said:

Lesser said:

Zachary VIII said:

I don’t get why people bring up Vader’s redemption when saying Kylo should survive IX and be forgiven. Vader died in the end, even though he was redeemed. It would be really weird if he survived and showed up in the celebration scene of RotJ wearing white armor or something, with everyone being friends after a short apology like it’s an episode of My Little Pony.
Ben has to face some type of consequences or else it cheapens the impact of his previous actions. At the very least, even if he’s redeemed, he should exile himself like how Ulic Qel-Droma did.

100% agreed. I’ve seen good civil conversations on this site so far and hope nothing I say comes off as rude or condescending to anybody. Just my thoughts, so correct me if you feel. Firstly, I don’t even understand how the whole Reylo is a good message for the future generation. You can’t have Kylo violate Rey’s mind in front of the ashes of his victims, murder his own father, allow the destruction of entire planets, and have him be forgiven because love. It makes sense for Luke to want to redeem his father despite Vader’s actions, because Luke only ever cared about his father growing up. Rey barely knows Kylo and had to endure a lot of pain and suffering because of him, so she can’t fall in love with him no matter how sorry she feels for him after only one conversation in a hut, unless she’s severely damaged in the head.

If Anakin survived ROTJ, then he would face the consequences of his actions. He was only redeemed in Luke’s eyes and to the force itself by fulfilling his prophecy. Leia would certainly not forgive her father for years, probably decades. I feel like if they really wanted to shock the audience and have the story be satisfying to more people, then Leia should’ve been the one that was tempted to kill her son for becoming a new Vader, not Luke. This way, Leia learns something about forgiveness and maybe understands Anakin better, and the audience can finally see her deal with Vader being her father, since it’s almost like she doesn’t really care (other than in Bloodline by Claudia Grey).

This is a good post and I like your line of thinking with Leia.

+1

I think the whole Reylo outcome would be a really bad idea. Your deeds and actions, particulary bad ones, should have consequences in the Star Wars universe. Ben Solo may be redeemed, but if he survives, he should spend his remaining days atoning for his crimes, and teaching others to not fall in the same trap he did. Ben Solo following his personal desires, and needs through a relationship with Rey would be one of the worst messages to give to viewers. If he lives, he should become a tragic figure, redeemed in the eyes of some, but despised by many.

pleasehello said:

Creox said:

I also think veering off too much and you have a SW indie film that a lot fewer people will want to see.

But would probably be infinitely more interesting. I’m probably in the minority here, but I would love to see a Star Wars story done on a smaller scale. You don’t need $200 million to make a good Star Wars movie.

I also don’t agree veering off would turn Star Wars into an indie film. That would imply that only by continually rehashing Empire vs rebels, Jedi vs Sith, and fallen apprentices Star Wars can remain relevant to a large audience. I believe other epic stories can be told, that expand the universe, and the lore without being so self-referential.

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I view the ST thusfar as a somewhat failed experiment, not unlike the PT. In my view the OT is a self-contained story with a clear beginning, middle and end, with clear character arcs. That story has gotten lost somewhat with the addition of the PT, and ST. Both the PT and ST are superfluous imo, and cannot stand on their own. They both add something to the overall narrative, and lore, but at a hefty price. To me the overall narrative of the six part “tragedy of Anakin Skywalker” is significantly weaker than the three part “adventures of Luke Skywalker”, and the thusfar eight part “Skywalker saga” is weaker still. However, in the case of the PT, aside from the poor execution of many elements, the faults were built in from the get go, where the story’s outcome was a foregone conclusion, and it’s self-referential nature part of it’s DNA. It was therefore self-evident that story choices in the PT, might clash with the previously established self-contained story of the OT. It might have been better to have the PT be set in a much earlier time, or an earlier conflict to provide more of a disconnect between the PT and OT timelines, thus ensuring the OT’s narrative is not significantly impacted by the addition of episodes 1 to 3.

With the ST however the creators were free to forge their own path, to create new settings, new aesthetics, and a new conflict to drive the story forward. In my view this did not happen. The ST and Disney’s additions to the franchise in general have been self-referential to a fault, whether it’s by copying the OT’s settings, aesthetic, and general plot, or whether it is by using the OT’s story threads, and set pieces to misdirect, and subvert expectations, the ST at its core thusfar has failed to provide us with a new setting, and new story. It’s the current generation’s updated and modernized OT, where history seems destined to repeat itself ad nauseum:

The big question for me will be, whether episode IX can break through this cycle? If not, I fear for the future of the franchise, where in a worst case scenario Disney Star Wars will forever be a cover band playing Lucas’ greatest hits, changing the order of the verses with some newly updated (and in some cases inappropriate) arrangements, rather than to take Lucas’ style of music, and create some genuinely new songs.

And yet…people who do not like the film say it isn’t like the OT in many ways. That it broke the promise of the SW universe, the feel of the original films.

Well, I would argue if the OT can be represented by three different people, then the ST entries thusfar reminds me a little too much of this:

In other words several OT elements, settings, aesthetics, and story threads have been stitched together with some new elements to form a “new” whole. While Frankenstein shares a lot of similarities with the people that were used to create him, sadly the stitches are showing all too well. Analogously, while the ST shares a lot of similarities with the OT, inviting a continuous sense of déjà vu, the mish mash of OT elements does not provide an overall experience, that honours the legacy of the OT, or even Lucas’ six part saga to a great many people, and to them the stitches are showing all too well.

An example of the visible stitches in the ST is Rey’s sudden mastery of the Force, which appears inconsistent with what has been established before, and is only explained through the words of Snoke in TLJ:

“Darkness rises, and light to meet it. … I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise.”

The story element seems to have been mostly driven by plot convenience, rather some well thought out concept, that flows naturally from the story or the saga in general. Rey needed to be in that throne room on par with Kylo, despite the fact that Luke refused to train her, and so we get a couple of throw away lines to quickly fill a potential plot hole.

However, I have a number of issues with this approach. For one the movie makes it clear, that Snoke only becomes aware of Luke’s desire to die and letting the Jedi die with him by probing Rey’s mind, and so why does Snoke assume that Kylo’s equal in the light would rise while Jedi Master Luke Skywalker is still around? It appears that when Luke disconnected himself from the Force, the Force took matters into it’s own hands, and bestowed Rey with these powers to counter the growing imbalance. However, this rather important new concept is mostly ignored by the film. Luke himself doesn’t acknowledge it, and neither does Yoda for that matter. You would think that it would give Luke pause, that the Force displays its will by awakening in Rey, a wholly new concept in the Star Wars universe. Luke might interpret Rey’s presence as a confirmation, that the galaxy does not need the Jedi, and believe himself to be a possible corrupting influence on Rey, leaving her to figure things out for herself, or alternatively he might consider Rey’s presence a clear sign, that he was wrong to let the Jedi end, as it is the will of the Force for the Jedi to continue. However, he does neither of these things. He barely acknowledges her role in the bigger picture, even if he has sidelined himself, and treats her merely as an inconvenience, who should give up just like he has done. She finally gets tired of Luke’s routine, and leaves, prompting Luke to (again?) attempt to burn the Jedi Temple. Then Yoda appears, gives Luke platitudes, and Luke reverses his position, and accepts he’s not the last Jedi. The whole “we are what they grow beyond” is very prosaic, but rather meaningless (imo) in light of the fact, that the Jedi Masters ignore the elephant in the room, the apparent “Will of the Force”, and its implications to the bigger picture.

It is my opinion, that many of the new elements introduced by TFA and especially TLJ to stitch the different OT settings, elements and story threads together are not properly developed or placed in the context of the larger saga, and thus rather than enrich the Star Wars universe, stick out like a sore thumb. So, in my view episode IX has the difficult task to integrate and further develop these half cooked new concepts, such that it all makes sense once the nine part saga is completed. If it succeeds, and I hope it does, I might see TFA, and TLJ in a different, more positive light.

I view the ST thusfar as a somewhat failed experiment, not unlike the PT. In my view the OT is a self-contained story with a clear beginning, middle and end, with clear character arcs. That story has gotten lost somewhat with the addition of the PT, and ST. Both the PT and ST are superfluous imo, and cannot stand on their own. They both add something to the overall narrative, and lore, but at a hefty price. To me the overall narrative of the six part “tragedy of Anakin Skywalker” is significantly weaker than the three part “adventures of Luke Skywalker”, and the thusfar eight part “Skywalker saga” is weaker still. However, in the case of the PT, aside from the poor execution of many elements, the faults were built in from the get go, where the story’s outcome was a foregone conclusion, and it’s self-referential nature part of it’s DNA. It was therefore self-evident that story choices in the PT, might clash with the previously established self-contained story of the OT. It might have been better to have the PT be set in a much earlier time, or an earlier conflict to provide more of a disconnect between the PT and OT timelines, thus ensuring the OT’s narrative is not significantly impacted by the addition of episodes 1 to 3.

With the ST however the creators were free to forge their own path, to create new settings, new aesthetics, and a new conflict to drive the story forward. In my view this did not happen. The ST and Disney’s additions to the franchise in general have been self-referential to a fault, whether it’s by copying the OT’s settings, aesthetic, and general plot, or whether it is by using the OT’s story threads, and set pieces to misdirect, and subvert expectations, the ST at its core thusfar has failed to provide us with a new setting, and new story. It’s the current generation’s updated and modernized OT, where history seems destined to repeat itself ad nauseum:

The big question for me will be, whether episode IX can break through this cycle? If not, I fear for the future of the franchise, where in a worst case scenario Disney Star Wars will forever be a cover band playing Lucas’ greatest hits, changing the order of the verses with some newly updated (and in some cases inappropriate) arrangements, rather than to take Lucas’ style of music, and create some genuinely new songs.

spoRv said:

Thanks!

A lot of avisynth cleaning, denoising, sharpening, upscaling, downscaling, and so on… 😄

May you point me to that ROTS project? Thanks!

Great work!!! 😃

KillThad said:

DrDre said:

poita said:

We still need another two 8TB Hard drives, the scan itself is finished, we just need hard drives to transfer the files onto so I can start work on the restoration.

I donated another 250 USD just now, so we should be nearly there… 😃

If we’re going off Amazon prices, we should only need another 250 and poita should be set. I could probably throw a couple bucks in if you guys want.

I added another 250 USD, so we should have the hard drives covered, such that poita can do his magic. 😉

poita said:

We still need another two 8TB Hard drives, the scan itself is finished, we just need hard drives to transfer the files onto so I can start work on the restoration.

I donated another 250 USD just now, so we should be nearly there… 😃