DrDre

RogueLeader said:

That is an interesting though. I suppose you could think of Episode I as a prologue and Episode IX as an epilogue to the whole story.

I would be interested in hearing what you were sort of hoping to see in IX, Dre.

Difficult to say, since I felt TLJ had a sense of finality to it. There were no real cliffhangers, or clear story threads, that could be finished in IX.

Broom Kid said:

The Last Jedi didn’t hit single digit millions until its 19th day of release (539mil total at that point)
The Rise of Skywalker got there on its 14th day. (417mil total at that point)

People are too focussed on the number of days. All the films have shown a large drop off following the holiday period starting from Jan 3-4, and I don’t see why TROS will be the exception. Since Christmas it has been closely following the trajectory of RO, and TLJ, except at a lower level. There is no indication in the data, that the curve for TROS will cross the RO curve. If it doesn’t cross the RO curve, it will stay below it, meaning it will make less than 1.05 billion.

Continuing from some of the links I posted earlier. Here are two reviews of TLJ:

http://www.chriswei.com/reviews//star-wars-the-last-jedi-2017

‘THE LAST JEDI’: ICONOCLASTIC AND ICONIC.

https://classicaldifference.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi/

“Star Wars: The Last Jedi is the first of the Star Wars films that could be labeled as iconoclastic.”

What is interesting about these articles, is, that the first article praises TLJ for being iconoclastic, whilst the last condemns TLJ for it. This makes TLJ a very unique, and interesting film for me intellectually. Usually when people criticize a film, they criticize poor characterization, sloppy/rushed story telling, plot holes, poor dialogue, poor acting, etc, but rarely have I seen many people praise/condemn a film on the exact same basis. This line of thought has made me re-evaluate TLJ. While I’m not sure, whether I like or dislike its iconoclastic premise anymore (I’ve mostly disliked it up till now), one might say TLJ is the perfect ending to the saga, from a certain point of view, because it ends, how the story began, with a new hope. The circle is complete. Luke Skywalker’s story is done. The twin sunsets that started his adventure, ended it. Rey from nowhere will be the next Jedi. The next generation of Jedi are all across the galaxy, as symbolized by stable boy. Poe will follow in Leia’s footsteps. Kylo has embraced the dark side for the forseeable future, but as Luke tells Leia, and as we witnessed in ROTJ, nobody is ever really gone. Did we really need TROS to hammer it home? Should a story always end in celebration?

Here’s the data in figure form:

Including the dates is actually very useful, because this figure clearly indicates, that unlike popular opinion, it is not unlikely TROS will fall behind RO for its total BO, and may not even pass the $1,000,000,000 mark.

I suppose, I should apologize for posting this crap. I despise the polarization, divisiveness, and one sidedness in these discussions, and how progressives, and conservatives alike are weaponizing these terms to push their petty agendas. As Dom put it yesterday: The constant arguing is “fucking ridiculous". Sadly, I’m as guilty as anyone, and posting this nonsense, is a new low for me. I suppose, there’s only one simple solution. Stop blaming others, stop arguing, stop pointing fingers, stop harrassing, just stop.

DominicCobb said:

In my mind Palpatine should not have returned and I doubt that’s something Rian would have envisioned as the conclusion to the story he set up in TLJ. I should be clear, just because I wouldn’t have done it doesn’t make it a bad decision. But again, when you’re at the conclusion of a story, you have to necessarily follow what’s been set up. I think JJ would argue Palpatine was there because it was a conclusion to the whole saga, and that’s totally fair. Maybe there was a way to do it that would have worked. But I don’t think you can look at what they did and say it seems like a natural follow up to the previous two episodes, or the previous eight.

Personally it seemed to me like Rian’s eye was very much on the ball for what the trilogy needed at large, in particular, he saw the trajectory the Snoke/Kylo storyline was on and decided to expedite that so that the trilogy would be forced into a position in the third film where it wasn’t just aping ROTJ (whoops). I think you can draw a line from that decision to not finding room for the Knights in TLJ. Rian made a choice to have Kylo forge a different path than what we got with Vader. Whether it’s what you or I or JJ would have done or not (and to be clear, it’s probably not what I would have done - that’s not the reason I like it), in the second film he very much had the freedom to make such a choice. The failure then ultimately I feel lies with JJ for refusing to “play ball” with that decision.

Ultimately I should clarify too that I don’t think JJ was under obligation to use certain “elements.” Like, honestly I probably wouldn’t have even cared that much if the Knights weren’t in the film? Just would have been a missed opportunity (so, no different than what we got). I think being bothered by that sort of thing is kind of the wrong way of looking at it. People complain about Phasma and say she was a waste, but I say who cares? She served a purpose in TLJ. Ultimately the problem is that the Knights in TROS didn’t serve a purpose. And JJ’s real failure is not that he didn’t follow through with enough screen time for them or Maz or whoever, but that he didn’t follow through in general with the character arcs and thematic trajectories from the end of the last movie.

I think the failure lies in not making one of these guys responsible for writing the story of this trilogy. In case of JJ it would have likely become a very safe story, and in the case of RJ it would have likely been controversial, but at least it would have been a consistent story from start to finish. As it is now the total is less than the sum of its parts, where it should have been more.

screams in the void said:

^ when the only three or so results that turn up on Google after fact checking this are a site about an angry gamer containing a "cuckold simulator that seems to perfectly represent soy drinking leftists " and a site about comics that has close ties to Gamergate , I think this is highly suspect. Please take this inflammatory bullshit elsewhere. Thank you. also…https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/bounding-into-comics/

Sorry, should have checked the guy behind it. Thanks for the link to mediabiasfactcheck.com. Should be very useful in the future…

oojason said:

DrDre said:

Ah, yes. @Dataracer117 - the victim blamer and racism-denier…

https://twitter.com/Dataracer117/status/1204990242047938561:-

'The SJW media used the fake victimhood of Kelly Marie Tran to shame Star Wars fans for criticizing TLJ.

The only proof of the “months of online harassment” were replies to her birthday post by the official Star Wars Instagram.

Kelly’s Insta was always full of fangirl type stuff’
 

Yep, reading through that twitter account for just a few minutes… I’d happily take a stand against toxic fandom such as that victim-blaming and racism-denier shite. You too, Dre?

Yeah, sorry did not check this guy’s credentials. Guess it was another clickbait article. It doesn’t seem fitting for this thread (or any other) in any shape or form.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

act on instinct said:

DominicCobb said:

I mean, come on. Poe is clearly a cocky hero type in TFA. You’ll argue about anything, I swear.

And you’ll argue back, please be respectful.

I know, I’m as stupid as anyone. It’s all just fucking ridiculous.

That’s a running theme with you. Rather than just disagreeing with someone, and arguing your point of view, people allways have to have some kind of agenda, and their arguments are fucking ridiculous, or some other derogatory qualification.

No. No. The constant arguing is “fucking ridiculous.” I’m as guilty as anyone.

O sorry, guess I’m too…

DominicCobb said:

act on instinct said:

DominicCobb said:

I mean, come on. Poe is clearly a cocky hero type in TFA. You’ll argue about anything, I swear.

And you’ll argue back, please be respectful.

I know, I’m as stupid as anyone. It’s all just fucking ridiculous.

That’s a running theme with you. Rather than just disagreeing with someone, and arguing your point of view, people allways have to have some kind of agenda, and their arguments are fucking ridiculous, or some other derogatory qualification.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

Also, Finn and Poe can kiss on Crait!

I like that, though I’m not sure I buy the rest. Why is the guy who isn’t devoted to the cause telling the one who is how bad the war is? What is Poe learning exactly, and how is Finn learning his lesson? It’s a lot cleaner if Finn gets the “why we fight” story, and Poe’s story is focused on heroism vs. recklessness.

At least that’s how I feel and how Johnson felt. Maybe there was a different way to do it that’d work equally well, I don’t know. For me I don’t really have any problem with Canto Bight so I don’t really see why it should’ve been done differently. Different strokes I guess.

It seems very odd, that Rose the mechanic is teaching Finn the former soldier, who was pretty much enslaved as a child about the horrors of war, and slavery. This is the issue with many of the character arcs in TLJ, where RJ just uses them as tools to send whatever message he wants to the audience, whether it is consistent with their previously established character, and character history or not.

TFA set up Finn as a character who explicitly wanted to run. That meant that in TLJ they had an opportunity to finally do a “why we fight” sort of story for a main character, which is something that really hasn’t been done before in the series. Finn was a child soldier, yes, and they could have gone a different direction, but Finn’s characterization as just trying to save himself and Rey and getting out of it is not at all inconsistent with his character as previously established.

And I don’t think Rose’s place in it is odd at all, as they clearly explain her backstory.

It’s fine that Poe needs to learn about what it means to be a leader, but at the same time Poe is so over the top irresponsible, and hot headed, that it doesn’t really seem very consistent with the good natured, respected pilot and commander that was presented to us in TFA.

I mean, come on. Poe is clearly a cocky hero type in TFA. You’ll argue about anything, I swear.

Cocky hero type, and downright irresponsible to the point of disobeying a direct order, amd starting a mutiny are two very different things. If the opening scene of TFA told us anything, it was that Poe was the one pilot in the Resistance, that Leia trusted most of all. Why would she do that, if he was such an irresponsible hothead?

All we know about him is his character type. Otherwise his personality is pretty undefined and open to a lot of growth. But maybe he should have just stayed perfectly nice without any problems throughout the whole trilogy? That would have been really interesting. Just because Leia trusted him doesn’t mean he should be immune to mistakes.

Of course he can make mistakes. I have no problem with the idea “that not everything can be solved with an X-wing”, but the problem here is, that it’s driven so far as to be almost a caricature. Same goes for Holdo. Her attitude is understandable to a point, but the characters are so obviously set up for conflict, that it feels contrived most of the time. The conflict doesn’t follow from good characterization from my point of view.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

Also, Finn and Poe can kiss on Crait!

I like that, though I’m not sure I buy the rest. Why is the guy who isn’t devoted to the cause telling the one who is how bad the war is? What is Poe learning exactly, and how is Finn learning his lesson? It’s a lot cleaner if Finn gets the “why we fight” story, and Poe’s story is focused on heroism vs. recklessness.

At least that’s how I feel and how Johnson felt. Maybe there was a different way to do it that’d work equally well, I don’t know. For me I don’t really have any problem with Canto Bight so I don’t really see why it should’ve been done differently. Different strokes I guess.

It seems very odd, that Rose the mechanic is teaching Finn the former soldier, who was pretty much enslaved as a child about the horrors of war, and slavery. This is the issue with many of the character arcs in TLJ, where RJ just uses them as tools to send whatever message he wants to the audience, whether it is consistent with their previously established character, and character history or not.

TFA set up Finn as a character who explicitly wanted to run. That meant that in TLJ they had an opportunity to finally do a “why we fight” sort of story for a main character, which is something that really hasn’t been done before in the series. Finn was a child soldier, yes, and they could have gone a different direction, but Finn’s characterization as just trying to save himself and Rey and getting out of it is not at all inconsistent with his character as previously established.

And I don’t think Rose’s place in it is odd at all, as they clearly explain her backstory.

It’s fine that Poe needs to learn about what it means to be a leader, but at the same time Poe is so over the top irresponsible, and hot headed, that it doesn’t really seem very consistent with the good natured, respected pilot and commander that was presented to us in TFA.

I mean, come on. Poe is clearly a cocky hero type in TFA. You’ll argue about anything, I swear.

Cocky hero type, and downright irresponsible to the point of disobeying a direct order, and starting a mutiny are two very different things. If the opening scene of TFA told us anything, it was that Poe was the one pilot in the Resistance, that Leia trusted above all else to carry out a highly sensitive mission. Why would she do that, if he was such an irresponsible hothead? My take is, that RJ clearly wanted to make a point of toxic masculinity, and hero worship with his film, and so several characters were fitted into this mold.

idir_hh said:

I hesitate to post this here as I’m not sure whether it’s legit or not however it does make sense based on what we know so far, this is the supposed leak from reddit that sparked the #releasethejjcut movement which is currently trending on twitter, the poster is claiming inside info from the production of TROS concerning what happened behind the scenes of this production, take it as you will folks.

Original POST:

Since shortly after release weekend, I’ve been corresponding with someone who worked closely on the production of TROS and works for one of the major companies I cannot disclose here. I have verified the source to my satisfaction. To protect the source, I am rewording what we spoke about over the last two weeks and am submitting it to you in bullet point format I have written based on what they told me. The TLDR is that they were upset with the final product of TROS and wanted to share their perspective on how it went down and where it went wrong.

-The leakers for TROS had an agenda and are tied to Disney directly. My source confessed that they have an agenda as well in that they struggle with ignoring what’s been happening to someone who they think doesn’t deserve it.

-JJ always treated everyone on and offset with respect so my source’s agenda is that what Disney has done to JJ and how much they screwed him over should be something people are at least aware of, whether you like him as a filmmaker or not.

-Disney was one of the studios who were in that Bad Robot bidding war last year. Disney never had much interest in BR as a company but they did in JJ because they saw WB (who JJ went with in the end) as a major threat.

-JJ is very successful at bringing franchises back like Mission Impossible, Star Trek and Star Wars. WB is struggling with DC and aside from Wonder Woman, DC is still seen as a bit of a joke in its current state by the GA.

-WB wants Abrams for some DC projects. My source said that this generation’s Star Wars is the MCU, and Marvel’s biggest threat is a well operational DC. They want to keep DC in the limbo that they’re in right now. Abrams jumpstarting that franchise with something like a successful, audience-pleasing Superman movie makes them nervous. Their goal is to make JJ look bad to potential investors/shareholders.

My source mentioned this shortly after the premiere: “The TROS we saw last night was not the TROS we thought we worked on”.

-JJ was devastated and blindsided by this. He’s been feeling down over the last 6 months because of some of the ridiculous demands Disney had that changed his movie’s story. While the scenes were shot, a lot of the changes were made in post-production and the audio was rerecorded and altered. My source said they’ve never seen anything like this happen before. He’s the director and he wasn’t in the know about what they were doing behind his back.

-Apparently, JJ felt threatened over the month leading up to the premiere.

-Rian was never meant to do IX despite some rumors that he was.

-JJ was brought back by Iger, not KK. Disney insisted on more fan service, less controversy.

-JJs original agreement when he signed on was indicating he would have way more creative control than he did on TFA. It became evident this wasn’t the case only a couple of weeks into shooting when the trouble with meddling started.

-JJ wanted to do some scenes he thought were important but Disney shut it down citing budgetary reasons.

-May 2019: JJ argued that those scenes were crucial. He had to let go of one of the scenes. The other scene he insisted on was approved at first. He did reshoots and additional photography in July. The new scene was shot at BR in October.

-The “ending that will blow your mind” was a part of this. Older actors were included like Hayden, Ewan and Samuel and anyone who wasn’t animated. The force ghosts weren’t meant to be voices because they shot that footage on camera. The actors were in costumes. Rey was supposed to be surrounded by the force ghosts to serve as sort of a barrier between her and the Sith surrounding them.

My source thinks but can’t 100% confirm that this is because of China. It’s an office talk of sorts. Some VFX people claimed they got a list of approved shades of blue they could use on the Luke force ghosts. Cutting this out was when the bad blood turned into a nightmare for JJ because the movie he was making was suddenly unrecognizable to him in almost every way.

My source knows JJ well enough to know that he’s just not the yelling type but apparently in a meeting he yelled something along the lines of “Why don’t you just put ‘directed and written by Lucasfilm’ then?” My source wasn’t present for that exchange but knows some who were.

-Disney demanded they shoot some scenes that would have things in it for merchandise. “They fly now” is one of them. It’s also JJ’s least favorite scene. At a November screening of a 2:37 cut, he cringed, groaned and laughed when the scene was on.

My source says that JJ was most likely not joking when he said “you’re right” in the interview where they asked him about TROS criticism.

-JJ’s original early November cut was 3 hours 2 minutes long.

-In January, JJ suggested that they turn this into two films. My source told me this well before Terrio mentioned it in an interview a couple of days ago. When Disney said no, JJ was content with making this 3 hours long.

-Over a period of 9 months JJ started realizing that one by one his ideas and whole scenes were being thrown out the window or entirely altered by people who have “no business meddling with the creatives”.

-They were not on the same page when it came to creative decisions and it became obvious that Disney had an agenda in addition to wanting to please shareholders. Disney could “afford messing up IX for the sake of the bigger picture” when it came to protecting things unrelated to IX.

-The cut JJ eventually and hesitantly agreed to in early December was 2:37 minutes long. It wasn’t the cut we saw which he wouldn’t have approved of (and which is 2:22 long). Apart from the force ghosts, there were other crucial and emotional scenes missing. The cut they released looked “chopped and taped back together with weak scotch tape” (JJ’s words).

-The movie opened with Rey’s training. Her first scene with Rose was shortly after Rey damaged BB-8 during the training. Rose made a silly joke about how Poe is going to kill her for damaging BB-8. There was a moment where Rey took a minute to process what just happened when she saw that vision during training. She looked distressed and worried. The next scene was noise as the Falcon was landing and Rey runs over there. Those two women who kissed at the end were visible in this shot and they were holding hands. One of them ran towards the Falcon as it landed.

-Kylo on Mustafar scene was 2 mins longer. There was a moment where Kylo seemed a bit dizzy and his vision was shown as blurry for a second. Almost as if time half-stopped while everyone in the background was slow-mo fighting. Kylo hears Vader’s breathing, then shakes his head and time goes back to moving at a normal pace and he jumps right back into the battle (the scene from the trailer where he knocks that guy down which did end up in the movie later).

-They cut some of the scenes from the lightspeed skipping segment. Some of the planets that were cut were Kashyyyk, Naboo, and Kamino.

-The scene where the tie fighters are chasing them through the iceberg - those corridors were inspired by a video game JJ used to play in the 90s called Rebel Assault 2 (the third level in the game with the tunnels on Endor specifically).

-Jannah was confirmed to be Lando’s daughter.

-Rey not only healed Kylo’s face scar but she killed Kylo when she healed Ben. Kylo ceased to exist when Rey healed him. My source mentioned that some people assume it was Han Solo who healed him but that isn’t true and that wasn’t Han Solo. That was Leia using her own memories as well as Ben’s to create a physical manifestation of his own thoughts to nudge him towards what he needed to do. That was her own way of communicating that with him. And it wasn’t possible without her dying in the process. She made the ultimate sacrifice for her son and this flew over people’s heads with the Disney cut.

-The late November cut (the last cut JJ approved of) had scenes with Rose and Rey still. JJ wanted to give her a more meaningful arc. Disney felt that that was too risky too. My source mentioned that Chris Terrio said that it was because of the Leia scenes but this is only partially true because she had four other scenes including two with Rey/Daisy that Leia was not in.

-Finn wanting to tell Rey something was always meant to be force sensitivity. In the 3 hour cut, it’s explicitly stated. There was a moment when Jannah and he were running on top of that star destroyer and Finn needed to unlock or move something and he force-moved it and acted surprised when it happened. This was replaced with a CGI’d BB-8 fixing whatever he needed to fix on there.

-Babu Frik was nearly cut because some execs at Disney thought he would be the new Jar Jar. They are really surprised that people love him this much. He was JJ’s idea and was created in collaboration with some artists and puppeteers. The personality was all JJ.

-There were a bunch of scenes where Rey and Kylo (separately) went through quiet moments of reflection to deal with what they were going through. On her part, her going through the realization that there’s something sinister about her past. Him going through regret and remorse but trying to shut it out. My source said that the Kylo scenes were especially amazing because of Adam’s performance and how he managed to portray that inner turmoil. It provided much more context and added deeper meaning to both his battle with Rey and the final redemption arc at the end. It didn’t happen so suddenly and it was more structured than what we got.

-The Kylo/Rey scene where he dies was at least 4 minutes longer with more dialogue. Ben was always supposed to die. Source also added that if he wasn’t, then that might’ve been in an earlier draft which they haven’t read. The first draft they read included Lando (the first few didn’t). The Reylo kiss and Ben’s death was not part of the reshoots. It was a part of the re-editing. Even the cut that JJ thought was coming out earlier this month had a longer version of that scene than what was shown in the theatrical cut.

-JJ was against the Reylo kiss (or Reylo in general). This was Disney’s attempt to please both sides of the fandom.

-JJ was not happy with where TLJ took the story. The final result is a mix of that story and the story told by Disney and whoever they tried to impress (“certainly not the fans”). JJ is gutted over the final result. Star Wars means a lot to him. He had to sacrifice large chunks of the story in TFA but he was promised more creative control on TROS and instead the leash they had him on was only tightened as time went by. A source said that this is the one franchise and the one piece of his work that he didn’t want to mess up and instead it turned into his worst nightmare. When he found out that he was blindsided with the cut they presented, he said “what the fuck??” when Kylo was fighting the Knights of Ren at the end and the Williams music that was used for it was not what he wanted at all. He seemed to think it was out of place.

-JJ’s cut still exists and “will always exist”. We most likely will never see it unless “someone accidentally leaks it.”

My God, if this is true? Poor JJ…

yotsuya said:

One point of TFA that really didn’t fit with Rey being a complete nobody was that she could understand wookies and droids. That is not a normal skill. Now that we know who she belongs with and can guess at her upbringing, it makes sense. And a few more pieces seem likely. I would guess from his running and hiding that Palpatine’s son refused to have children while his father was alive. I would also assume he was born before ROTS. So he married, and Rey was born sometime post ROTJ. Then he finds out his good ol’ dad is back from the dead and goes into hiding. So he probably lived on Coruscant or another core world and Rey must have learned to understand wookies and astromech droids there before they went into hiding. And it seems safe to assume that Rey’s father had no force abilities or he probably would have been Palpatine’s first choice. So it skipped a generation (unlike the Skywalkers).

I think that information maintains what TLJ had to say about anyone can be strong in the force. And the outcome of TROS definitely states that who you are is not based on your blood. Rey may have Palpatine blood, but she is not on the Dark side like her grandfather. And Kylo did not have to be on the dark side because of his grandfather. And TROS reveals Finn as the nobody who is force sensitive. So those themes carry forward even if Rey is now a Palpatine. For me it made sense, though so did her coming from nowhere.

And I read the leaked plot summary before seeing the film. I liked the plot summary and was excited for the film until I read the critic reviews. Then the viewer reviews started coming in an most were the same reaction I had to the leaked plot summary. And in the end, I enjoyed the film more than the leaked plot summary. There were a couple of things that the leak had that weren’t in the film. I wish they would have kept the Lando/Jannah plot, but they left it open to still exist outside the films. And I’m really not sure how this film had a more convoluted plot than the PT films. My reaction to those was that there was too much in them. That was not my reaction to TLJ or TROS. Both films had me enthralled and the time flew by. I didn’t feel overloaded at all. Overall I think that under Disney, Lucas film has made 4 outstanding movies and 1 good one. I think those 4 are better overall than what Lucas did with the PT.

My take, it’s a lot easier to adapt someone else’s story (the OT), than to come up with a new story, which the PT largely was, even if we knew the outcome of the story. Despite the overall better execution of the ST story on an individual film basis, it still ended up having a ton of issues, and controversy associated with it, which have been debated at length, and managed to become a disjointed mess of conflicting artistic visions.

Here’s an interesting article, that defends TLJ:

https://medium.com/@JeffreyTWebb/the-last-jedi-is-the-first-existentialist-star-wars-80149ef1af00

“When fans complain that Rian Johnson is “trolling” Star Wars fans, I think this is part of what they’re trying to say. We had our golden calf — how dare you melt it. But the lesson of The Last Jedi is that we don’t need golden idols to have an epic worth believing in. Flawed men and women, in the end, will do.”

I think she hits the nail on the head, except for the fact, that what she describes as a golden calf is very meaningful to many others. I think this is where the heart of the divisiveness comes from. There is an air of dismisiveness in the word “golden calf = false idol”, that I believe many also experienced, when watching the film. They view TLJ as a form of iconoclasm:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/edmontonjournal.com/entertainment/movies/the-last-jedi-takes-an-iconoclastic-leap-into-a-larger-world/amp

ATMachine said:

Honestly I don’t think RJ works well with characters he didn’t create himself. He’s probably a far better director without having to deal with a collaborative series of films.

Well, I think he sees himself as an “auteur”, which is fine, and he is very talented, but I think it creates conflicts, when you write the 8th chapter of what is essentially someone else’s story. The Skywalker saga has become a mishmash of conflicting visions, Lucas’, JJ’s, and RJ’s.

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

Also, Finn and Poe can kiss on Crait!

I like that, though I’m not sure I buy the rest. Why is the guy who isn’t devoted to the cause telling the one who is how bad the war is? What is Poe learning exactly, and how is Finn learning his lesson? It’s a lot cleaner if Finn gets the “why we fight” story, and Poe’s story is focused on heroism vs. recklessness.

At least that’s how I feel and how Johnson felt. Maybe there was a different way to do it that’d work equally well, I don’t know. For me I don’t really have any problem with Canto Bight so I don’t really see why it should’ve been done differently. Different strokes I guess.

It seems very odd, that Rose the mechanic is teaching Finn the former soldier, who was pretty much enslaved as a child about the horrors of war, and slavery. This is the issue with many of the character arcs in TLJ, where RJ just uses them as tools to send whatever message he wants to the audience, whether it is consistent with their previously established character, and character history or not. It’s fine that Poe needs to learn about what it means to be a leader, but at the same time Poe is so over the top irresponsible, and hot headed, that it doesn’t really seem very consistent with the good natured, respected pilot and commander that was presented to us in TFA.

And once we had the Death Star in Episode IV, there is no reason not to continue the technology. You complain about the appearance of the Emperor’s fleet out of nothing and yet in ROTJ we had a second (and larger) Death Star show up the same way. I really get the sense that you do not carefully think how the OT may done similar things before you judge the ST so harshly.

Pointing to what is widely considered the weakest part of ROTJ, namely the reappearance of a Death Star is hardly a good defense for the ST reintroducing superweapons two more times. Additionally, the second Death Star at least has a function in the story, while in TROS they are just an artificial way of adding tension to a pretty boring space battle.

DominicCobb said:

Please understand everything I say about the trilogy has an asterisk that says “excluding TROS.”

I understand, but I think it is also fair to say that all ST movies have the same roots in a lot of ways. A notorious gambler can take a big win, which to many might represent TFA, or TLJ. That same gambler may take a catastrophic loss, which may represent TROS. However, to some of us the main point is not the individual win or loss, but the fact that the man is a gambler. It is the creative process behind these films, that have caused them to be reactionary, and disjointed to varying degrees. TROS is a symptom of an underlying condition, is what many are arguing, a condition that has been present from the very beginning.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

I hope someday Lucas’s treatments do come out, I’d be curious. But knowing his past writing processes (on the OT and PT), it’s more likely than not that his treatments were pretty short and vague. More importantly, even if Lucas himself had made the films he would have certainly changed the story of his treatments significantly over the course of time. So the idea that they should have chained themselves to those treatments just because they had Lucas’s name on them is monumentally silly.

More importantly, the idea that evil will always return is “nihilistic” is ridiculous. It’s just factually true. The idea that evil can be defeated once and for all is pretty naive. It works for a fairy tale yes, but Star Wars has been becoming less and less a fairy tale with each new entry. The idea that evil will always return is sophisticated and nuanced (perhaps too much so for some viewers, which is why they ditched it in TROS), and the message that there will always be good to face that evil is anything but nihilistic. It’s the very heart of what Star Wars is - never ending hope in the face of potential despair.

Exactly. We do know that they kept some of what Lucas had come up with. They also revisited a lot of his abandoned ideas for earlier films. I would love to see his treatments, but if you read some of his other treatments, the final films came out much different. And in history and myth, evil is something always lurking and endangering the good we create. The idea that Star Wars should somehow deviate from that and must keep what the heroes of the OT worked so hard to win is indeed silly. Each generation has their own fight and some generations lose that fight (the PT).

I don’t agree with everything your saying but it is important to remember Flash Gordon. Star Wars, like old space opera serials, is supposed to be a never ending saga, where we know no matter what the heroes will always be there to save the dar. If the evil can be defeated for forever, that’s it’s not really never ending is it?

This gets back to the fact that I fully believe that many people just fundamentally did not want to see movies made set after ROTJ, whether they say so or not. Simply put, to make a story set after ROTJ, you needed to undo that ‘happily ever after’ victory. What made TFA and TLJ so great is that they didn’t just wantonly undo it, they gave a thematic reason for doing so that justified their addition to the story. TROS… not so much.

Lots of people wanted to see movies made after ROTJ, but they wanted new stories, and new settings, not a reset to Empire vs rebels without so much as an explanation. There’s nothing wrong with The New Republic facing a new thread, or even a thread with some links to the past. However, the ST presents us with a New Republic as ineffective as the old one, when Palpatine took control. That is a very cynical outcome, especially since our heroes fought and bled for its establishment.

If the PT taught us anything it’s that we should never fully trust our political institutions. The heroes fought for freedom, and they had it for 30 years. The fact that the system that was put in place ended up failing doesn’t discredit their achievements. Again, the cyclical nature is the whole point, and the cynicism of such an outcome is precisely the thing that serves as the main conflict of the trilogy. The hope in the OT was hope in the face of tyranny. The hope in the ST is hope in the face of cynicism and despair. It’s a permutation and a maturation of the themes of the original films.

Maybe it’s not what you would have done personally (I’m not sure if it’s what I would have done) but it’s crazy how stubborn people are that they won’t take something at face value and they can’t get past the simple fact that it’s not what they imagined. So what? Look at what the films are actually saying. They’re wrestling with these exact things.

The New Republic was turned into a cipher in TFA, not because it made narrative sense in terms of the first six episodes in the saga, but because it made financial sense, since the OT iconography is more marketable than a new story, and setting would be. I would also argue, that it would have been far more satisfying, if our new generation of heroes had to overcome new challenges, rather than have the old generation fail spectacularly at almost every turn, such that the new generation can effectively take their place. While there are some good narrative reasons for Rey to choose the Skywalker name, it’s also quite interesting to note, that Luke and Anakin’s victory is now Rey’s, as she is the one to “finally” destroy the Sith, and becomes the last Skywalker, and last Jedi. She quite literally replaced them. I will also note, that the cyclical nature was not Lucas’ intention, I believe. The Old Republic stood for a thousand generations. That is what our heroes were fighting to re-establish. The fall of the Old Republic was presented as a rather unique set of circumstances, that through the manipulation, and corruption of the Senate by a Sith Lord was turned into an Empire. It was the fact, that the Sith had been secretly undermining the Old Republic for a thousand years, like a game of galactic chess, that gave their final victory weight in the grand scheme of things. I feel the way the ST just pulls dark lords, massive fleets, super weapons, and resources out of thin air greatly undermines the meaning and weight of both the victory of the Sith at the end of ROTS, and the Jedi at the end of ROTJ. That to me is not a maturation of the themes of the original films.

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

I hope someday Lucas’s treatments do come out, I’d be curious. But knowing his past writing processes (on the OT and PT), it’s more likely than not that his treatments were pretty short and vague. More importantly, even if Lucas himself had made the films he would have certainly changed the story of his treatments significantly over the course of time. So the idea that they should have chained themselves to those treatments just because they had Lucas’s name on them is monumentally silly.

More importantly, the idea that evil will always return is “nihilistic” is ridiculous. It’s just factually true. The idea that evil can be defeated once and for all is pretty naive. It works for a fairy tale yes, but Star Wars has been becoming less and less a fairy tale with each new entry. The idea that evil will always return is sophisticated and nuanced (perhaps too much so for some viewers, which is why they ditched it in TROS), and the message that there will always be good to face that evil is anything but nihilistic. It’s the very heart of what Star Wars is - never ending hope in the face of potential despair.

Exactly. We do know that they kept some of what Lucas had come up with. They also revisited a lot of his abandoned ideas for earlier films. I would love to see his treatments, but if you read some of his other treatments, the final films came out much different. And in history and myth, evil is something always lurking and endangering the good we create. The idea that Star Wars should somehow deviate from that and must keep what the heroes of the OT worked so hard to win is indeed silly. Each generation has their own fight and some generations lose that fight (the PT).

I don’t agree with everything your saying but it is important to remember Flash Gordon. Star Wars, like old space opera serials, is supposed to be a never ending saga, where we know no matter what the heroes will always be there to save the dar. If the evil can be defeated for forever, that’s it’s not really never ending is it?

This gets back to the fact that I fully believe that many people just fundamentally did not want to see movies made set after ROTJ, whether they say so or not. Simply put, to make a story set after ROTJ, you needed to undo that ‘happily ever after’ victory. What made TFA and TLJ so great is that they didn’t just wantonly undo it, they gave a thematic reason for doing so that justified their addition to the story. TROS… not so much.

Lots of people wanted to see movies made after ROTJ, but they wanted new stories, and new settings, not a reset to Empire vs rebels without so much as an explanation. There’s nothing wrong with The New Republic facing a new thread, or even a thread with some links to the past. However, the ST presents us with a New Republic as ineffective as the old one, when Palpatine took control. That is a very cynical outcome, especially since our heroes fought and bled for its establishment.

DominicCobb said:

I hope someday Lucas’s treatments do come out, I’d be curious. But knowing his past writing processes (on the OT and PT), it’s more likely than not that his treatments were pretty short and vague. More importantly, even if Lucas himself had made the films he would have certainly changed the story of his treatments significantly over the course of time. So the idea that they should have chained themselves to those treatments just because they had Lucas’s name on them is monumentally silly.

More importantly, the idea that evil will always return is “nihilistic” is ridiculous. It’s just factually true. The idea that evil can be defeated once and for all is pretty naive. It works for a fairy tale yes, but Star Wars has been becoming less and less a fairy tale with each new entry. The idea that evil will always return is sophisticated and nuanced (perhaps too much so for some viewers, which is why they ditched it in TROS), and the message that there will always be good to face that evil is anything but nihilistic. It’s the very heart of what Star Wars is - never ending hope in the face of potential despair.

It’s nihilistic, because it’s become cyclical, fighting the same evil over and over with diminished returns. Ben’s redemption works, because he is a great actor, but it’s also less impactful than Vader’s redemption, because we have seen it all before. Same goes for Palpatine’s death. Aside from being a very poorly set up character in this trilogy, it was very unlikely they could top the character’s death in ROTJ, and surprise, surprise it’s spectacular visually, but emotionally vapid, another deja vu in a trilogy filled with them. I mean how many times can the destruction of the rebel fleet be used as leverage against our hero? How many Death Stars can you introduce? They’re on ships now. How original…too bad they don’t really affect the plot. What’s the next step, blasters with Death Star tech? It’s become a parody of itself.

There’s nothing wrong with introducing new threads, and new challenges for characters old and new, that expand the universe, and the lore of the Star Wars universe, just look at the Mandalorian. It is very telling that the ultimate fate of one of the characters at the end of the season is so much more emotionally impactful than for any of the characters in the ST. Aside from better writing (imo), the fact that the Mandalorian isn’t just recycling story beats from Star Wars’ greatest hits is, what makes its story and character developments surprising, and impactful, and what makes this series fairly univerally loved.

I for one really wish they would have just used Lucas’ treatments, brought in some good writers, and directors, and given us a new story, rather than regurgitating an old one. I really don’t see the point in rebels beating an empire, and Palpatine again, or having another Jedi apprentice turn bad, and be redeemed. All they ultimately have done is greatly diminish the importance of many of the story arcs, and characters in the OT, introduce the nihilistic idea, that the same evil has to be beaten over, and over again, and have new less interesting characters fulfill the destinies of the old ones. I really believe the Star Wars universe, and lore would have been greatly expanded upon, if Lucas’ story would have been followed, and we would have gotten a real sense of finality to the story, rather than having more or less the same ending, which the ST has already proven does not have to be the end. There’s nothing in the ST story, that would prevent Palpatine from returning again, as the means of his return is so vague, that it can be used again, and again. So, from my perspective the Skywalker Saga is six films, while the ST is a reboot/adaptation marketed as sequels. I hope we will one day find out how Lucas’ story was supposed to end.

I have sort of made my peace with the SE, and while I would love to get an official OOT release, to me the SE still represents 95% of the movies I love at a quality, that fan restorations just can’t compete with, especially now that the color issues of the 2011 restoration have been resolved.