DrDre

kk650 said:

DrDre said:

kk650 said:

DrDre said:

Although I like your screenshots, the desert scenes are more orange, as they are on the bluray, where the 35 mm frames show it should be more yellow.

You've lost me there. I adjusted your regraded screencaps by removing a bit of blue to get rid of the slight cold feeling. Removing blue makes the image more yellow. I also adjusted the fleshtones to make them less red, not more red.

The only way the desert would look more orange with my adjustments would be if i'd added red, not removed it like I did in this case. As far as I can tell, the hue of the desert in my adjusted screencaps is closer to the hue of the desert in the 35mm screencaps than your regraded screencaps. Am I missing something?

I used one of one of your regrades to construct a color correction model. The basis for my argument is the result I got for this frame:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/147246

To my eyes your regrade is more orange. Analyzing the rock Indy is standing on reveals average RGB values for your regrade  [163.9701  118.4535   71.4151]. The same analysis for my regrade gives [158.8538  120.2475   74.3358]. So, more red and less green in your regrade, hence more orange. 

I also did the analysis on the original frame I used to make the model:

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/146976 

The average RGB values for the sand to the left of Indy in your regrade  [166.8212  129.9876   91.2088]. The same analysis for my regrade gives [161.0879  130.4117   96.0465]. So, again more red and less green in your regrade, hence more orange. The same analysis for the bluray gives [168.6993  129.3077   89.6064], so your regrade is almost as orange as the bluray.  

In this frame for the 35 mm the sky is also pretty blue, so reducing the blue results in a more gray sky like in the bluray.

Oh, I think I understand where you're coming from now.

The adjustments I made were essentially to add yellow to the overall image to counter the slightly cold feeling I was picking up and add yellow and green to the fleshtones to make them less red and more like what I believe fleshtones looked like on 80's film, more 'natural' to that era as such, based on stills from 80's films i've seen. That would cause the reds in the fleshtones and the desert to shift towards orange. That is what you mean by the adjusted screencaps looking more orange, the colour shift from red to orange, rather than orange being added. That process is actually taking you towards the yellow desert of the 35mm prints, if you keep on adding yellow and green to the fleshtones, they would become more yellow and so to would the desert.

The problem with getting the desert as yellow as the 35mm print, if that is your aim, is that the fleshtones would all be completely yellow as well and everybody throughout the film would look like they're suffering from yellow fever. I personally wouldn't focus on the desert or other things in the background being a certain colour, I would focus on the overall colours looking correct to your eyes and especially the fleshtones looking natural, because thats where the viewers eyes are focused on most of the time, and let the rest of the colours come from that.

To my eyes I consider my adjustments to be an improvement on your regrade both in terms of overall colour and fleshtones but this is your project so what matters ultimately is what you prefer. If you like the blues to stand out a little more, like you pointed out in the desert sky, you should leave the blues unchanged. The desert sky in my adjusted shot looks more 'natural' to me but if you want more blue there its totally your call. If you prefer your fleshtones more reddish then leave them as they are.

Something you realise very quickly when you colour grade for a bit is that nothing is ever objectively 'right', it all just comes down to one's own personal preference. This is your project so of course you have the final say. I look forward to watching what you come up with regardless of whether I agree with all your colour choices, you're doing a very thorough job and i'm sure when you finish it'll look great :)

 I agree that your skin tones are very appealing. It's just that I want to approuch the 35 mm colors, and the comparisons with the trailer frames seem to suggest they're very close, including the skin tones. There's also much more blue in the trailer, which can especially be seen in the frame where Indy points his gun at the truck. 

Here's my first attempt at manually regrading this scene, since the trailer is not the best quality for color matching with the algorithm, but the colors are consistent with the 35 mm trailer (bluray top, regrade bottom):

The only sequence, which seems to have been graded totally differently in any home video release, than on the 35 mm trailer, is the bar brawl:

Trailer:

Bluary:

Regrade:

Trailer:

Bluray:

Regrade:

The regrade comes a bit closer, but these scenes seem to have been deliberately red shifted. So, this scene needs separate regrading.

Here are a few comparisons with the white balanced 35 mm trailer for Raiders:

Trailer:

Bluray:

Regrade:

Trailer:

Bluray:

Regrade:

Trailer:

Bluray:

Regrade:

Trailer:

Bluray:

Regrade:

Trailer:

Bluray:

Regrade:

I think these comparisons show the regrade is very consistent with the 35 mm trailer. 

kk650 said:

DrDre said:

Although I like your screenshots, the desert scenes are more orange, as they are on the bluray, where the 35 mm frames show it should be more yellow.

You've lost me there. I adjusted your regraded screencaps by removing a bit of blue to get rid of the slight cold feeling. Removing blue makes the image more yellow. I also adjusted the fleshtones to make them less red, not more red.

The only way the desert would look more orange with my adjustments would be if i'd added red, not removed it like I did in this case. As far as I can tell, the hue of the desert in my adjusted screencaps is closer to the hue of the desert in the 35mm screencaps than your regraded screencaps. Am I missing something?

I used one of one of your regrades to construct a color correction model. The basis for my argument is the result I got for this frame:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/147246

To my eyes your regrade is more orange. Analyzing the rock Indy is standing on reveals average RGB values for your regrade  [163.9701  118.4535   71.4151]. The same analysis for my regrade gives [158.8538  120.2475   74.3358]. So, more red and less green in your regrade, hence more orange. 

I also did the analysis on the original frame I used to make the model:

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/146976 

The average RGB values for the sand to the left of Indy in your regrade  [166.8212  129.9876   91.2088]. The same analysis for my regrade gives [161.0879  130.4117   96.0465]. So, again more red and less green in your regrade, hence more orange. The same analysis for the bluray gives [168.6993  129.3077   89.6064], so your regrade is almost as orange as the bluray.  

In this frame for the 35 mm the sky is also pretty blue, so reducing the blue results in a more gray sky like in the bluray.

STENDEC said:

I've done some more extensive testing with the tool over the past couple of weeks, regrading the opening scene of the first Matrix film Blu-ray to match the PAL DVD. I know spoRv attempted this a while back, but comparing his to mine revealed that DrDre's tool is far more accurate.

First 6 minutes of the film here:

https://mega.nz/#!ExoRjKTb!w1IvRE74YUfyVd_YjnaMT6903w-9A-wlFCK8pwIkjyA

This was a shot-by-shot regrade too. There are some problems with crushed whites, which the tool doesn't handle well as we know, but overall is looks almost exactly like the DVD.

Just a couple of things I thought I'd mention with regards to the tool itself as well. Firstly, it'd be good to have an Abort button somewhere. At the moment if you make a mistake and want to cancel the calculation or conversion, you have to use task manager to shut the program down and then reopen it.

Secondly, I don't know if this is just on my PC, but there were a number of occasions where I'd be building a correction model, and then for no apparent reason the tool would just stop calculating mid-way. The progress bar would hang and my CPU usage would drop to idle. If I recropped the images and tried again it would usually work but not always.

In any case, as I said before it's an awesome program.

 I've been trying to include a cancel button, but it turns out to be pretty challenging to do, so hopefully I will be able to include it in a future release.

The hanging of the model building is actually a bug, that has been fixed for v1.3. The LUT's are working, so the release is scheduled for tomorrow.

kk650 said:

DrDre, I think you're very close to having the colours and image dynamics spot on here, at least to my eyes. Contrast and brightness is perfectly fine to me, you've matched the blu-ray image dynamics there and I think thats the right call. In terms of colour though, your regrade does feel a little cold. The fleshtones are also too red IMHO.

I'd suggest that in future you post full size 1080p screencaps, it would make it a lot easier to assess the colours and image dynamics and give feedback.

Here are screencap comparisons for all your latest screencaps between your regraded shots and the same shots with adjustments I would make to remove the slightly cold feeling and make the fleshtones more natural looking, at least to me:

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/146973

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/146975

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/146976

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/146977

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/146978

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/146979

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/146980

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/146981

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/146982

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/146983

 Although I like your screenshots, the desert scenes are more orange, as they are on the bluray, where the 35 mm frames show it should be more yellow.

Sadly, tinypic does not seem to support 1080p, so I will also post some screenshot comparisons. The video sample will be 1080p though.

Here are the frames from the opening scenes (bluray top, regrade bottom):

nirbateman said:

The colors look very good, but the image seems a tad too bright and washed out, especially in the 1st picture.

 The brightness has been matched to the bluray, to make sure no detail is lost in the shadows. A previous version had higher contrast and saturation, but lost a lot of detail in the darker scenes.

Here's the comparison against the 35 mm frames, the bluray, and the WOWOW for the last update:

35 mm:

Bluray:

WOWOW:

Regrade:

35 mm:

Bluray:

WOWOW:

Regrade:

35 mm:

Bluray:

WOWOW:

Regrade:

There actually was a slight green shift in the post 462 regrade. Here's a corrected version:

towne32 said:

Happy to test with a few software packages if you need. 

So no changes in the model building for 1.3?

 No, the model building is the same as for v1.2.

towne32 said:

Do you think the correction models saved in 1.2 will be able to be opened and saved as LUTs in 1.3 or will the corrections need to be repeated?

 In v1.3 you can import a previously built color correction model, that can then be exported as a LUT. The LUT's are beginning to make sense. Just one more test if they can be imported in other software, and then it will be release time.

rockin said:

I hate add criticism, because you are doing such wonderful work, but to me the latest regrade looks like it is losing some detail in certain things. I can't really tell whether it is something to do with the gamma or not, or again just my eyes. 

 I noticed some problems as well, so I went back to v1.5, and fixed a white balancing problem. Screenshots and video are on their way.

thorr said:

Still a bit too tan.  I like the bluray regrade the best, but it needs some touch up.  Here is an attempt...

http://i58.tinypic.com/2uehdv5.png

 I agree with g-force that 662 still looks the best to me. There's still blue everywhere, that's easy to spot if you compare them directly.

Here's the script for SRV15:

orig=AviSource("SW.avi")

orig=Trim(orig,0,50000)

orig=ConvertToRGB24(orig)

edi0=nnedi2_rpow2(orig,rfactor=2, cshift="spline64resize") 

edi=nnedi2_rpow2(orig,rfactor=2, cshift="spline64resize") 

sr1=SR(orig,1424,548)

sr1=ConvertToYUY2(sr1)

yuy2=ConvertToYUY2(orig)

sr2=SR(yuy2,1424,548)

rev=Reverse(orig)

sr1r=SR(rev,1424,548)

sr1r=Reverse(sr1r)

sr1r=ConvertToYUY2(sr1r)

yuy2rev=ConvertToYUY2(rev)

sr2r=SR(yuy2rev,1424,548)

sr2r=Reverse(sr2r)

s64=Spline64Resize(orig,1424,548)

s64=ConvertToYUY2(s64)

edi=ConvertToYUY2(edi0)

sr=Average(sr1,0.25,sr2,0.25,sr1r,0.25,sr2r,0.25)

q1=QTGMC(edi,Preset="Placebo",Edimode="EEDI2",InputType=3,TR0=1,TR1=1,ProgSADMask=0,Blocksize=8)

q2=QTGMC(edi,Preset="Placebo", Edimode="EEDI2",TR0=1,TR1=1,Blocksize=8)

q2=SelectEven(q2)

edi=Median(edi,q1,q2)

edi=ConvertToRGB24(edi)

s64=ConvertToRGB24(s64)

sr=ConvertToRGB24(sr)

sr=Average(sr,2,s64,-2,edi,1)

edicd=ConvertToYUY2(edi0)

edicd=ConvertToYV12(edicd)

edicd=ConvertToRGB24(edicd)

Average(sr,1,edi0,1,edicd,-1)

nnedi2_rpow2(rfactor=2, cshift="spline64resize") 

Spline64Resize(1920,816)

However, here's another interpretation with less of a tan, which probably is a little better:

NeverarGreat said:

I say either of the last two are great. On my monitor, the skin tones are practically perfect, the hair is blonde/gray in keeping with his apparent age, the blue of the uniforms remains intact, and the hallway is ever so slightly green, which, as far as anyone can tell, is how it is supposed to look. Why does this last one look worse to you?

 Also, there are far less artifacts, the old one had green blotches in the face, blue on the helmet. The one thing I didn't like about the improved one, is that his face had less depth, which has been fixed in the latest regrade.

towne32 said:

I think it is a good question. One that I probably wouldn't have brought up, due to the hard work you've put in. But if you're at the point of deciding whether or not to begin another massive encode, it's certainly worth discussing.

I admit that my enthusiasm in the end product (but not the technique) has waned a bit, now that TN1's work is shaping into something quite nice. The benefits of your upscale, to me, were:

1. It's 'pure' SW. There's no mixing of sources that need to be matched or rotoscoping to be spotted by the trained eye. This is also the main benefit of TN1. 

2. Color. It's not perfect, but it's roughly the color of the film I grew up watching. It's fairly consistent and not insane like 2004 and onwards. As you say, 35mm projects can be made to match the GOUT for those who are interested.

3. You've come up with a great script that has already been applied to other things, like Hal's project. It can be used for DeSp type projects where nothing better than GOUT is yet available.

The cons:

This is going to take you a very, very long time to start over with. You have other great projects going on. And there are two other films which will need adjusted scripts and again enormous periods of encoding.

DVNR. It's not going anywhere. 

This (I mean encoding the entire film, *not* the R&D) is being done for practical use, to view a less ugly version of the (approximately) untouched film. It's one of many options. That's what's great about this community. It has kind of a shot-gun approach. Every imaginable way of making this film exist is being attempted. That said, what is the userbase that will prefer this version to TN1 or Harmy or Team Blu? If it were a 2-day encode, I would say who cares? Let's add it to the pile and the list of options! It's not trivial when we're talking about probably more than half a year spent encoding the trilogy, if it's something five people watch once. 

I'm sure people will disagree. But I say, just get the script out there. People can do the scenes they need. Or the entire film if it's really ready-to-go. Someone might figure out how to get distributed computing power working for this, some day, and we can get it done rapidly.

I think this is worth discussing!

 I think you hit the nail on the head. I agree completely. I've cleaned up the SRV11 script for SRV15, so I will definitely post that later today, when I get home, but the encoding takes an terribly long time, and most of it's to do with reducing all the artifacts that are caused by applying super resolution to a terrible source like the GOUT, not so much the super resolution itself. 

Zyrother said:

Completely valid question. And in my honest opinion, color matching Team -1s restoration is perfectly valid, and acceptable, as that has the content everyone loves. Color matching the Blu Ray with GOUT colors is also another great option too.

But, the goal of this was never to provide another preservation of the OOT, simply to prove that Super Resolution was a viable up scaling method. Which it most certainly is. Comparisons of V15 and the source are incredible.

I would completely disagree in saying that this whole endeavor was worthless. Lots of people came together, and lots of ideas were thrown around. it even spun off a deep discussion of color matching.

Whatever version of SR you choose, it is still an accomplishment that merits recognition!

 I certainly agree the journey has been worthwhile, and also entertaining. I've used super resolution to create some pretty neat looking upscales of the prequel deleted scenes for someone else's project. 

However, I must also admit, that ever since I saw -1's latest samples, and realized what's possible in the color matching department, using the GOUT as a source seems more and more illogical to me. 

Although super resolution is very useful, when it there is no high resolution release available, it's obviously pretty useless in the presence of a true high resolution release. Considering the picture quality of Team Negative1's latest video samples, it is pretty obvious that any GOUT upscale is going to pale by comparison. Aside from the obviously higher resolution, there's no aliasing, no halos, no static grain, and no DVNR. That only leaves the GOUT color grading, which can be reproduced as was evident from the few examples I posted of the bluray regraded to match the GOUT:

So, my question is this. If Team Negative1's preservation is as great as it appears to be from the samples, why not create a high resolution version of the GOUT from those, by color matching the preservation to the GOUT, rather than settle for an inferior upscale of those 2006 bonus DVD's? It may seem like an odd question from someone who has spent many hours working on this, but I think it is a valid question.

DrDre said:

Bluray:

Bluray regraded:

 Here's an improvement of my latest regrade (imo):

 Another attempt, which I think is the best of both worlds:

FrankT said:

Is there a possibility of this tool being able to export LUTs sometime soon?

 The LUTs are  still being tested. Once I get it working, it will be released.

Another experiment matching a frame from the Temple of Doom bluray to a set of 70 mm fames posted in the http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Raiders-of-the-lost-ark-bluray-and-colour-timing-changes/ thread.

70 mm frames:

Bluray:

Bluray matched to 70 mm:

The new video sample is almost done for the regrade v1.7.