DrDre

An alternative color grading:

act on instinct said:

Somewhere yet still further in between methinks?

(for the record this is a combination of both Dre and emanwfan’s mixes)

EDIT: added my own mix to the mix, not much changed apart from taking another cue from Dre and injecting some warm tones

Nice! Going from this one:

Maaga said:

emanswfan said:

MaestroDavros said:

Looks lovely!

Emanswfan are you planning on varying the emulated stocks based on their intended use conditions (daylight stocks vs artificial lighting stocks, etc.) or just one blanket stock across the whole film? Just curious.

In an eventual scene by scene or even shot by shot grade, stocks will be different depending on the case.

This is actually exactly why creating one grade for the whole movie for any of them hasn’t worked well, but I still want to do that as to get a version that maintains the relative color timing.

I must say I largely prefer emanswfan’s grade.

Maybe I went for a bit too neutral. How about this:

Or how about just creating a different atmosphere by having the sun set:

NeverarGreat said:

Just for fun, I tried correcting three of the trailer images with a global adjustment:

https://imgur.com/a/zlYa2pK

I would go for this, if I wanted a film like look:

RogueLeader said:

I went in saying I would give prizes to the three people who got closest to opening weekend, domestic and worldwide, and it does seem the three closest people are rocknroll (who I have already spoken to), Starkiller and Dre. Right? I have three prizes, so we can award three people!

Also Dre, I would love for you to do a write up about your conclusions about your research now that we know that the numbers are pretty close to settled.

Well what shall I say? I think ultimately the final BO was predictable to some extent, although the mixed reception probably prevented the film from more closely approaching TLJ’s box office. I think the poor performance of Solo, and less than exceptional performance of TROS hammers home, that we’ve entered an era, where Star Wars films are just seen as the next big blockbuster on the agenda.

Following the completion of my work on 4K77, I decided to give 4K83 the same treatment. Here’s reel 1:

emanswfan said:

Forgive the compression artifacts given this is from the Disney+ version. This is with AI Sharpen, a HDR to SDR conversion, Kodak 5219 emulation, and some custom grading. This is what I would say would be a vivid modern film look grade option without film grain.

Trying to mess around with the Disney+ versions at least a little until the physical 4K discs come out.

Nice! How about this quick and attempt at creating a film like color grading using yours as the base?:

A new release of 4K77 is in the works, that will feature these colors. Our esteemed williarob will provide updates in the future, but an exact release date is not yet available.

Here’s the final reel:

Here’s reel 5:

Chewtobacca said:

DrDre said:

A shot by shot regrade destroys the color relationships between shots, and thus cannot really be seen as an accurate representation of what was seen in theatres in 1977.

If the shots in the reference print differ from each other, but individual LUTs accurately match each shot from the target (4k77, the BD, whatever) to each shot from the reference, then surely the color relationships should be preserved? By “color relationships between shots”, I assume that you mean the inconsistencies in color that occur from shot to shot.

I mean a shot by shot regrade, that aims to improve consistency without the use of a reference. Additionally, if an accurate reference was available, a target like 4K77 would not need a shot by shot regrade, because the accurate relationships between shots are already preserved. Color matching a a number of representative shots of the target to the reference would be enough to get the entire target to closely match the reference.

Here’s reel 4:

I was looking at 4K77 v1.0, and wondered whether there’s a possibility to significantly improve the colors, and color consistency without doing a shot by shot regrade. A shot by shot regrade destroys the color relationships between shots, and thus cannot really be seen as an accurate representation of what was seen in theatres in 1977. A reel by reel correction with a superior LUT would preserve these relationships. This small project aims to do just that. I’ve thusfar completed the first three reels. Here’s how they look:

These results are very close to the colors of the 1997 SE, a technicolor color grading minus the green cast.

I misunderstood oojason, and lost my cool. We sorted it out, but I want to apologize to him here as well, as I painted him as being unfair, unreasonable, and snarky, which he wasn’t.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

A good and balanced analysis by the channel Films&Stuff of why TROS doesn’t work as a film for many (12 min):

The broken structure of Rise of Skywalker

https://youtu.be/HQrNK8NYevI

While it may not work for some, a great many seem to love this film, including myself. I found his argument that because we didn’t see landings that indicated a problem to be silly. And his analysis that Rey redid her journey in one film is off. Star Wars has always had a larger structure than a single film, but each film has always followed the 3 act structure and this one did as well Rey goes on her final journey - her final test if you will.

Maybe you loved it, and that’s fine, but the majority of audiences didn’t, which seems to indicate that there’s something wrong with the pacing and structure of the movie. That’s what the video is about, it isn’t about not having any shots of the heroes landing on a planet, although that is part of the pacing problem.

Sequel movies have a hard job in coming back to revisit the same characters and places with a new story. They were never going to please everyone. I think they set up to please the people who wanted to be entertained and I think they succeeded.

That’s my main problem with the movie. JJ didn’t want to make a meaningful movie, he didn’t even want to make a good movie, he just wanted a big dumb blockbuster that lots of people would enjoy without really thinking about it.

The box office numbers are not final yet, but it has done very well. People have wanted to see it and keep seeing it.

All Star Wars movies are blockbusters. And many think they have good stories, but I can find reviews clear back to 1977 calling them mindless drivel for the masses.

The old-fashioned reviewers who thought the OT was drivel were a minority. Those movies were universally praised by almost everyone else. There’s a reason why Star Wars and Empire consistently rank high on film critics’ top 100 movies lists.

The box office numbers are still disappointing. Keep in mind that most people were expecting this movie to make almost as much as TFA, and the ones who successfully predicted the current box office numbers were labeled as pessimists.

I was predicting around the same as TFA. And it is close to that, though still not quite there.

What alternate universe are you living in? 1 billion dollars isn’t anywhere near TFA’s insane 2 billion dollar gross. TROS has no chance of making as much as TFA or even TLJ.

Sorry, I mistyped. I meant TLJ. And it is getting pretty close, at least as I see it.

The numbers indicate that the critic score is way off on RT. The audience has not been that divided and a great many love it and have called it the best Star Wars since the originals.

Where are you getting this from? The audience reception is almost as divided as TLJ, and even the people who like it know it isn’t even close to being as good as the OT.

The people you talk to and communiate with maybe. The ones I see mostly loved it. I guess it all depends on what circles you are in. And like I said, the people I know personally who have seen it have all (save one) loved it. Lots of die hard Star Wars fans among them.

From other people outside OT. Literally for every negative impression of it I’ve read here, I’ve read another elsewhere that praises it in very high terms. And of the people I personally know who have seen it, the worst review was “I’ll have to think about it”. So I’m seeing the numbers to make that 86% on RT accurate. And the box office numbers agree that it is a popular movie. The best performing movie of a trilogy is always the first. Three for three.

But people (well, other Star Wars fans specifically) are praising this as an amazing movie. I think it is an amazing movie. So I know where they are coming from. I don’t think this trilogy has risen to quite the quality of the OT, but it has gotten closer than Lucas did with the PT. People whose writing skills I trust and who blasted Abrams for Star Trek Into Darkness have admitted this one was well done. So while a great many around here and probably other similar online groups may have found something wrong with it, the numbers do not indicate a majority hated it or thought it was bad. Even the critics, as harsh as they were, leaned a tiny bit in favor of it (the RT critic score never dropped below 50%).

Once again, are you living in an alternate universe? Where is this universal praise you’re talking about? I’ve seen reactions to this movie from all across the internet, and almost all of them are mixed to negative. I haven’t seen a single person (except you) who thinks this movie was anywhere near as good as the OT. Even the people who like it admit it could have been so much better. If you love the movie that’s fine, I’m glad you were satisfied by it. But don’t pretend that everyone else loves it just to get validation for your personal feelings.

I’m not pretending everyone loved it. I’m saying that I see that 86% audience rating on RT as accurate. It matches the personal feedback I’ve gotten.

So, you accept the 86% feedback on RT, which is seen as notoriously unreliable both in a positive, and a negative sense, because it fits with your personal perception, but ignore the lackluster 6.9 rating on imdb, or the fact that its has the lowest cinema score of any of the films (some would argue the cinema score is the most accurate, since it is done by direct polling of the general audience), or the fact that it has the worst RT review score of any of the films (52%). Look this is not the worst movie ever, and certainly not the best, but I would say it is an accurate statement, that its reception is pretty lackluster in general, pretty poor critically, with even the majority of its proponents agreeing it is a very flawed film, and its box office, while still pretty good when compared to the average blockbuster, falls well below expectations, and can thus be classified as dissappointing. So, while I would say it is inaccurate to state a majority hated or disliked this movie, I would say it is equally inaccurate to say a majority liked it as much as you do.

From a statistical perspective, any voluntary rating system is suspect. If you really want a valid rating you’d need to do a randomized national poll. Any rating that asks people to voluntarily rate something is going to be easily skewed by a group who have a reason to give their opinion. I expect the general consensus on this site to be skewed to rating these new movies lower. I did expect to see some negative opinions from those people I know personally (and I know face to face offline) and I have not seen the negative comments from any of them. That is why I see the 86% as accurate because it is matching closer to what I’m hearing from people I know than the 52% critic score.

As for the IMDB score, I don’t now how they arrive at that number so I can’t comment. The only thing I can say is that their highest rated film is The Shawshank Redemption with 9.3 out of 10. The Star Wars films are rated as follows:
Ep 1 - 6.5
Ep 2 - 6.5
Ep 3 - 7.5
Ep 4 - 8.6
Ep 5 - 8.7
Ep 6 - 8.3
Ep 7 - 7.9
Ep 8 - 7.0
Ep 9 - 6.7
Rogue One - 7.8
Solo - 6.9
When you consider that only 4 films have a 9.0 or higher, that is a pretty tough rating system. Also, only 450 films are rated 8.0 to 8.9. That’s out of all films ever which is well over 50,000. That means those 454 films rated 8.0 or higher are less than 1% of all films. 6.7 doesn’t get TROS in the top 1000 (even TLJ isn’t at 7.0), but still, it isn’t a bad rating. But IMDB also offers the Metacritic score.
Ep 1 - 51
Ep 2 - 54
Ep 3 - 68
Ep 4 - 90
Ep 5 - 82
Ep 6 - 58
Ep 7 - 81
Ep 8 - 85
Ep 9 - 54
Rogue One - 65
Solo - 62
How many of us on OT.com would agree that ROTJ rates that low? Or TESB? These are voluntary rating systems that are at the whim of those who decide to give a rating. It is not a scientific assessment and not accurate. People on Metacritic did not like ROTJ and barely rate it higher than ATOC, TROS or TPM. and under Rogue One, Solo, ROTS TFA and TLJ. I’m sure from some opinions I’ve seen around here, that there are some who agree with that, but I don’t. I really don’t think most voluntary ratings have much to offer except to confirm our own feelings. I think the RT Audience score for TROS matches what I’ve heard. I think their audience score for TLJ is way off. I think Metacritic is way off on Eps 1, 5, 6, 9 and Rogue One. I think not having Star Wars and TESB in the top 10 on IMDB is wrong.

Yes, but here’s the problem. For every person, that has friends who generally like the film, there is another person, who has friends who generally dislike the film. So, of all the measures discussed such anecdotal evidence is the most unreliable. I will agree the general audience like the film better than the critics. However, when presented with an 86% RT audience score, which is not seen as very reliable (even you yourself doubt the TLJ RT audience score), I compare the various audience measures, and come to the conclusion, that it is a positive outlier in a positive, but overall rather mixed response.

I’m working on improving the colors of the v1.0 no DNR version. The aim is to do a reel by reel regrade, that retains the relationships of the colors between shots as seen on the print, but eliminate the green cast seen in many of the shots of v1.0. I’ve finished the first two reels. Here are a few samples.

4K77 v1.0 no DNR:

4K77 v1.0 no DNR regraded:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

A good and balanced analysis by the channel Films&Stuff of why TROS doesn’t work as a film for many (12 min):

The broken structure of Rise of Skywalker

https://youtu.be/HQrNK8NYevI

While it may not work for some, a great many seem to love this film, including myself. I found his argument that because we didn’t see landings that indicated a problem to be silly. And his analysis that Rey redid her journey in one film is off. Star Wars has always had a larger structure than a single film, but each film has always followed the 3 act structure and this one did as well Rey goes on her final journey - her final test if you will.

Maybe you loved it, and that’s fine, but the majority of audiences didn’t, which seems to indicate that there’s something wrong with the pacing and structure of the movie. That’s what the video is about, it isn’t about not having any shots of the heroes landing on a planet, although that is part of the pacing problem.

Sequel movies have a hard job in coming back to revisit the same characters and places with a new story. They were never going to please everyone. I think they set up to please the people who wanted to be entertained and I think they succeeded.

That’s my main problem with the movie. JJ didn’t want to make a meaningful movie, he didn’t even want to make a good movie, he just wanted a big dumb blockbuster that lots of people would enjoy without really thinking about it.

The box office numbers are not final yet, but it has done very well. People have wanted to see it and keep seeing it.

All Star Wars movies are blockbusters. And many think they have good stories, but I can find reviews clear back to 1977 calling them mindless drivel for the masses.

The old-fashioned reviewers who thought the OT was drivel were a minority. Those movies were universally praised by almost everyone else. There’s a reason why Star Wars and Empire consistently rank high on film critics’ top 100 movies lists.

The box office numbers are still disappointing. Keep in mind that most people were expecting this movie to make almost as much as TFA, and the ones who successfully predicted the current box office numbers were labeled as pessimists.

I was predicting around the same as TFA. And it is close to that, though still not quite there.

What alternate universe are you living in? 1 billion dollars isn’t anywhere near TFA’s insane 2 billion dollar gross. TROS has no chance of making as much as TFA or even TLJ.

Sorry, I mistyped. I meant TLJ. And it is getting pretty close, at least as I see it.

The numbers indicate that the critic score is way off on RT. The audience has not been that divided and a great many love it and have called it the best Star Wars since the originals.

Where are you getting this from? The audience reception is almost as divided as TLJ, and even the people who like it know it isn’t even close to being as good as the OT.

The people you talk to and communiate with maybe. The ones I see mostly loved it. I guess it all depends on what circles you are in. And like I said, the people I know personally who have seen it have all (save one) loved it. Lots of die hard Star Wars fans among them.

From other people outside OT. Literally for every negative impression of it I’ve read here, I’ve read another elsewhere that praises it in very high terms. And of the people I personally know who have seen it, the worst review was “I’ll have to think about it”. So I’m seeing the numbers to make that 86% on RT accurate. And the box office numbers agree that it is a popular movie. The best performing movie of a trilogy is always the first. Three for three.

But people (well, other Star Wars fans specifically) are praising this as an amazing movie. I think it is an amazing movie. So I know where they are coming from. I don’t think this trilogy has risen to quite the quality of the OT, but it has gotten closer than Lucas did with the PT. People whose writing skills I trust and who blasted Abrams for Star Trek Into Darkness have admitted this one was well done. So while a great many around here and probably other similar online groups may have found something wrong with it, the numbers do not indicate a majority hated it or thought it was bad. Even the critics, as harsh as they were, leaned a tiny bit in favor of it (the RT critic score never dropped below 50%).

Once again, are you living in an alternate universe? Where is this universal praise you’re talking about? I’ve seen reactions to this movie from all across the internet, and almost all of them are mixed to negative. I haven’t seen a single person (except you) who thinks this movie was anywhere near as good as the OT. Even the people who like it admit it could have been so much better. If you love the movie that’s fine, I’m glad you were satisfied by it. But don’t pretend that everyone else loves it just to get validation for your personal feelings.

I’m not pretending everyone loved it. I’m saying that I see that 86% audience rating on RT as accurate. It matches the personal feedback I’ve gotten.

So, you accept the 86% feedback on RT, which is seen as notoriously unreliable both in a positive, and a negative sense, because it fits with your personal perception, but ignore the lackluster 6.9 rating on imdb, or the fact that its has the lowest cinema score of any of the films (some would argue the cinema score is the most accurate, since it is done by direct polling of the general audience), or the fact that it has the worst RT review score of any of the films (52%). Look this is not the worst movie ever, and certainly not the best, but I would say it is an accurate statement, that its reception is pretty lackluster in general, pretty poor critically, with even the majority of its proponents agreeing it is a very flawed film, and its box office, while still pretty good when compared to the average blockbuster, falls well below expectations, and can thus be classified as dissappointing. So, while I would say it is inaccurate to state a majority hated or disliked this movie, I would say it is equally inaccurate to say a majority liked it as much as you do.

The first reply in this very thread, by yourself below, referred to RT - apparently ‘notoriously unreliable both in a positive, and a negative sense’ - to paint the film as ‘looking to be a disaster’ with a score of 54%.

DrDre said:

It’s at 54% now on RT, and 53 on metacritic. The reviews on youtube are very similar in tone to the critic reviews. It’s looking to be a disaster. For reference TPM is at 53% on RT.

Disaster in terms of its critics’ score, which is perfectly reliable. It’s the audience score I was referring to as being unreliable, which has been controversial for years now. I thought that was obvious, as I refer to the RT critics’ score in my reply to yotsuya (now being at 52%). Why would I do that, if I thought it was unreliable? I also think it was clear, yosuya was speaking about the 86% audience score, which I called into question.

I was attempting to highlight you both using the same site to enforce your respective personal viewpoints / perceptions on the film - and yet also try to dismiss / negate each other’s view for using the same site.

RT has both approved critic scores and audience scores, eh? And one is reliable, whilst the other is not?

Got it. Or I think I’m starting to get it…
 

Sorry, but you’re comparing apples and oranges. The critic score is based on critics’ reviews, that can be validated directly, as they are made available on RT. It’s reliability has never been called into question (although the merits of the score itself has been debated, and compared to for example metacritic’s scoring method). The audience score has been controversial for years now, as you probably well know, and has been widely debated, and dismissed since the review bombing days of TLJ. Since those days and the subsequent Captain Marvel RT audience score controversy a lot of people understandably have little faith in the RT audience score. However, I fail to see how that relates to the reliability of a completely different measure on a completely different, and much more verifiable group of critics. So, I think you are being rather unfair, and unreasonable here. The snark is also not appreciated.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

A good and balanced analysis by the channel Films&Stuff of why TROS doesn’t work as a film for many (12 min):

The broken structure of Rise of Skywalker

https://youtu.be/HQrNK8NYevI

While it may not work for some, a great many seem to love this film, including myself. I found his argument that because we didn’t see landings that indicated a problem to be silly. And his analysis that Rey redid her journey in one film is off. Star Wars has always had a larger structure than a single film, but each film has always followed the 3 act structure and this one did as well Rey goes on her final journey - her final test if you will.

Maybe you loved it, and that’s fine, but the majority of audiences didn’t, which seems to indicate that there’s something wrong with the pacing and structure of the movie. That’s what the video is about, it isn’t about not having any shots of the heroes landing on a planet, although that is part of the pacing problem.

Sequel movies have a hard job in coming back to revisit the same characters and places with a new story. They were never going to please everyone. I think they set up to please the people who wanted to be entertained and I think they succeeded.

That’s my main problem with the movie. JJ didn’t want to make a meaningful movie, he didn’t even want to make a good movie, he just wanted a big dumb blockbuster that lots of people would enjoy without really thinking about it.

The box office numbers are not final yet, but it has done very well. People have wanted to see it and keep seeing it.

All Star Wars movies are blockbusters. And many think they have good stories, but I can find reviews clear back to 1977 calling them mindless drivel for the masses.

The old-fashioned reviewers who thought the OT was drivel were a minority. Those movies were universally praised by almost everyone else. There’s a reason why Star Wars and Empire consistently rank high on film critics’ top 100 movies lists.

The box office numbers are still disappointing. Keep in mind that most people were expecting this movie to make almost as much as TFA, and the ones who successfully predicted the current box office numbers were labeled as pessimists.

I was predicting around the same as TFA. And it is close to that, though still not quite there.

What alternate universe are you living in? 1 billion dollars isn’t anywhere near TFA’s insane 2 billion dollar gross. TROS has no chance of making as much as TFA or even TLJ.

Sorry, I mistyped. I meant TLJ. And it is getting pretty close, at least as I see it.

The numbers indicate that the critic score is way off on RT. The audience has not been that divided and a great many love it and have called it the best Star Wars since the originals.

Where are you getting this from? The audience reception is almost as divided as TLJ, and even the people who like it know it isn’t even close to being as good as the OT.

The people you talk to and communiate with maybe. The ones I see mostly loved it. I guess it all depends on what circles you are in. And like I said, the people I know personally who have seen it have all (save one) loved it. Lots of die hard Star Wars fans among them.

From other people outside OT. Literally for every negative impression of it I’ve read here, I’ve read another elsewhere that praises it in very high terms. And of the people I personally know who have seen it, the worst review was “I’ll have to think about it”. So I’m seeing the numbers to make that 86% on RT accurate. And the box office numbers agree that it is a popular movie. The best performing movie of a trilogy is always the first. Three for three.

But people (well, other Star Wars fans specifically) are praising this as an amazing movie. I think it is an amazing movie. So I know where they are coming from. I don’t think this trilogy has risen to quite the quality of the OT, but it has gotten closer than Lucas did with the PT. People whose writing skills I trust and who blasted Abrams for Star Trek Into Darkness have admitted this one was well done. So while a great many around here and probably other similar online groups may have found something wrong with it, the numbers do not indicate a majority hated it or thought it was bad. Even the critics, as harsh as they were, leaned a tiny bit in favor of it (the RT critic score never dropped below 50%).

Once again, are you living in an alternate universe? Where is this universal praise you’re talking about? I’ve seen reactions to this movie from all across the internet, and almost all of them are mixed to negative. I haven’t seen a single person (except you) who thinks this movie was anywhere near as good as the OT. Even the people who like it admit it could have been so much better. If you love the movie that’s fine, I’m glad you were satisfied by it. But don’t pretend that everyone else loves it just to get validation for your personal feelings.

I’m not pretending everyone loved it. I’m saying that I see that 86% audience rating on RT as accurate. It matches the personal feedback I’ve gotten.

So, you accept the 86% feedback on RT, which is seen as notoriously unreliable both in a positive, and a negative sense, because it fits with your personal perception, but ignore the lackluster 6.9 rating on imdb, or the fact that its has the lowest cinema score of any of the films (some would argue the cinema score is the most accurate, since it is done by direct polling of the general audience), or the fact that it has the worst RT review score of any of the films (52%). Look this is not the worst movie ever, and certainly not the best, but I would say it is an accurate statement, that its reception is pretty lackluster in general, pretty poor critically, with even the majority of its proponents agreeing it is a very flawed film, and its box office, while still pretty good when compared to the average blockbuster, falls well below expectations, and can thus be classified as dissappointing. So, while I would say it is inaccurate to state a majority hated or disliked this movie, I would say it is equally inaccurate to say a majority liked it as much as you do.

The first reply in this very thread, by yourself below, referred to RT - apparently ‘notoriously unreliable both in a positive, and a negative sense’ - to paint the film as ‘looking to be a disaster’ with a score of 54%.

DrDre said:

It’s at 54% now on RT, and 53 on metacritic. The reviews on youtube are very similar in tone to the critic reviews. It’s looking to be a disaster. For reference TPM is at 53% on RT.

Disaster in terms of its critics’ score, which is perfectly reliable. It’s the audience score I was referring to as being unreliable, which has been controversial for years now. I thought that was obvious, as I refer to the RT critics’ score in my reply to yotsuya (now being at 52%), who was talking about the audience score. Why would I do that, if I thought it was unreliable?

marsthgodofwar said:

The biggest change in ESB was the color grading. Where Hoth was originally white, in the SE it is blue. I am torn on the change, because I grew up with the SE color grade and I never hated it.

This is actually not true. The Hoth sequences were originally blue theatrically, but then turned white for the subsequent home video releases.

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

StarkillerAG said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

A good and balanced analysis by the channel Films&Stuff of why TROS doesn’t work as a film for many (12 min):

The broken structure of Rise of Skywalker

https://youtu.be/HQrNK8NYevI

While it may not work for some, a great many seem to love this film, including myself. I found his argument that because we didn’t see landings that indicated a problem to be silly. And his analysis that Rey redid her journey in one film is off. Star Wars has always had a larger structure than a single film, but each film has always followed the 3 act structure and this one did as well Rey goes on her final journey - her final test if you will.

Maybe you loved it, and that’s fine, but the majority of audiences didn’t, which seems to indicate that there’s something wrong with the pacing and structure of the movie. That’s what the video is about, it isn’t about not having any shots of the heroes landing on a planet, although that is part of the pacing problem.

Sequel movies have a hard job in coming back to revisit the same characters and places with a new story. They were never going to please everyone. I think they set up to please the people who wanted to be entertained and I think they succeeded.

That’s my main problem with the movie. JJ didn’t want to make a meaningful movie, he didn’t even want to make a good movie, he just wanted a big dumb blockbuster that lots of people would enjoy without really thinking about it.

The box office numbers are not final yet, but it has done very well. People have wanted to see it and keep seeing it.

All Star Wars movies are blockbusters. And many think they have good stories, but I can find reviews clear back to 1977 calling them mindless drivel for the masses.

The old-fashioned reviewers who thought the OT was drivel were a minority. Those movies were universally praised by almost everyone else. There’s a reason why Star Wars and Empire consistently rank high on film critics’ top 100 movies lists.

The box office numbers are still disappointing. Keep in mind that most people were expecting this movie to make almost as much as TFA, and the ones who successfully predicted the current box office numbers were labeled as pessimists.

I was predicting around the same as TFA. And it is close to that, though still not quite there.

What alternate universe are you living in? 1 billion dollars isn’t anywhere near TFA’s insane 2 billion dollar gross. TROS has no chance of making as much as TFA or even TLJ.

Sorry, I mistyped. I meant TLJ. And it is getting pretty close, at least as I see it.

The numbers indicate that the critic score is way off on RT. The audience has not been that divided and a great many love it and have called it the best Star Wars since the originals.

Where are you getting this from? The audience reception is almost as divided as TLJ, and even the people who like it know it isn’t even close to being as good as the OT.

The people you talk to and communiate with maybe. The ones I see mostly loved it. I guess it all depends on what circles you are in. And like I said, the people I know personally who have seen it have all (save one) loved it. Lots of die hard Star Wars fans among them.

From other people outside OT. Literally for every negative impression of it I’ve read here, I’ve read another elsewhere that praises it in very high terms. And of the people I personally know who have seen it, the worst review was “I’ll have to think about it”. So I’m seeing the numbers to make that 86% on RT accurate. And the box office numbers agree that it is a popular movie. The best performing movie of a trilogy is always the first. Three for three.

But people (well, other Star Wars fans specifically) are praising this as an amazing movie. I think it is an amazing movie. So I know where they are coming from. I don’t think this trilogy has risen to quite the quality of the OT, but it has gotten closer than Lucas did with the PT. People whose writing skills I trust and who blasted Abrams for Star Trek Into Darkness have admitted this one was well done. So while a great many around here and probably other similar online groups may have found something wrong with it, the numbers do not indicate a majority hated it or thought it was bad. Even the critics, as harsh as they were, leaned a tiny bit in favor of it (the RT critic score never dropped below 50%).

Once again, are you living in an alternate universe? Where is this universal praise you’re talking about? I’ve seen reactions to this movie from all across the internet, and almost all of them are mixed to negative. I haven’t seen a single person (except you) who thinks this movie was anywhere near as good as the OT. Even the people who like it admit it could have been so much better. If you love the movie that’s fine, I’m glad you were satisfied by it. But don’t pretend that everyone else loves it just to get validation for your personal feelings.

I’m not pretending everyone loved it. I’m saying that I see that 86% audience rating on RT as accurate. It matches the personal feedback I’ve gotten.

So, you accept the 86% feedback on RT, which is seen as notoriously unreliable both in a positive, and a negative sense, because it fits with your personal perception, but ignore the lackluster 6.9 rating on imdb, or the fact that its has the lowest cinema score of any of the films (some would argue the cinema score is the most accurate, since it is done by direct polling of the general audience), or the fact that it has the worst RT review score of any of the films (52%). Look this is not the worst movie ever, and certainly not the best, but I would say it is an accurate statement, that its reception is pretty lackluster in general, pretty poor critically, with even the majority of its proponents agreeing it is a very flawed film, and its box office, while still pretty good when compared to the average blockbuster, falls well below expectations, and can thus be classified as dissappointing. So, while I would say it is inaccurate to state a majority hated or disliked this movie, I would say it is equally inaccurate to say a majority liked it as much as you do.

A good and balanced analysis by the channel Films&Stuff of why TROS doesn’t work as a film for many (12 min):

The broken structure of Rise of Skywalker

https://youtu.be/HQrNK8NYevI

RogueLeader said:

There’s a few other amusing parallels with ROTJ outside the obvious, too. Not only do we have a left-field heritage twist with Rey Palpatine, but Finn fills in the role as back-up Force-sensitive like Leia did. We also get the nature vs technology theme with the Orbaks on the Star Destroyer. Sigh.

This video nails how I feel about TLJ now:

Revisiting the Last Jedi (and why it is alright)

https://youtu.be/qlOnKW_gFLE

Like me the guy disliked the film, but has kind of come around to liking many elements of it, and feels there’s a great film at its core. The guy goes through what he feels are the strong, and weaker elements of the film in a pretty balanced manner.

Fated-Dualist said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

How important is it really to this story? The First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, the Resistance is trying to stop it. Is a lot more information than that really important to the stories of these new characters? The logistics of the New Republic are no more important to Rey’s story than they are to the Mandalorian’s.

When one of the main characters of the story is the ruler of the galaxy, you should expect to have at least some explanation of how the system works. It’s fine to not explain anything for a small-scale TV show like The Mandalorian, but the sequels have events that happen on a galactic scale, so the movies should at least give us some broad idea as to the political situation.

I mean, Snoke is neither a main character nor the ruler of the galaxy, so I’m not sure that’s the most salient point.

I was referring to Kylo.

I thought we were talking about TFA. I feel like the political situation is pretty unconfusing in both TLJ and TROS.

Yes, but in some ways it is actually worse, since the message is, that even when the Resistance blows up the First Order’s big gun, a major victory in ANH, and the start of the Galactic Civil War, the rest of the galaxy is conveniently too scared, or too lazy to take on what is left of the First Order. Then in TROS these scared or lazy systems, which in TLJ apparently didn’t have the means to resist, or worse didn’t want to, just conveniently come crawling out of the woodworks at the end of the movie in a massive show of force. In other words these systems could have kicked the First Order, which was a lot smaller than the Final Order apparently, out of the galaxy any time they wanted to, but they didn’t because it wasn’t convenient for the story at that time. It’s really quite appalling the way the bigger picture was handled throughout the entire trilogy in my view.

Appalling?

A few wars or rebellions in real life start like this though. It takes time for people to muster the strength and courage to fight, or even the realisation that THEY themselves need to fight (that nobody else is going to do it for them) - and sometimes they may need a final push, or a reminder of how awful it actually is now (or was before) that can stir them into action.

This is not how invasions by a foreign power work. There isn’t a single country that was attacked by the Nazis in WW2, that didn’t put up a fight at least for a while. Most of them didn’t last very long, but that is beside the point. Yet, in the ST we are supposed to believe the entire galaxy just gives up, and allows the FO to overrun them, even though they clearly have the means to stop them, as is evident in TROS.

The story of Luke Skywalker (Jedi Knight! 😉) returning to fight the First Order on Crait will have likely have spread throughout the galaxy too given time - to give both hope and belief to people there is a chance, and a need, to fight against those who wish to oppress them.

The destruction of SKB, an actual victory, rather than a symbolic one, should be enough reason to come to the Resistance’s aid. Yet, rather than being the symbol of a new hope, as in the first film, it is met with cynicism, and apathy.

A message from Palpatine… broadcast throughout the galaxy that he’ll be back in charge soon and everyone will have to submit to his will again - backed up by a demonstration of the firepower he now in the Star Destroyer blowing up that planet - could inspire or trigger people to take up the fight too.
 

Really? And the actual destruction of the New Republic’s capital does not?

It is also made clear in TROS by the Imperial Officer at Exegol that these are just people - it is a fleet of people - who have only just come together to fight Palpatine and his newly announced oppression, and is not an orginised fleet in the way Rebel fleets in the Original Trilogy were.

This is a running theme in the ST. The FO is a fringe government, but they act just like the Empire, and have infinite resources. The Resistance is a military group supported by the New Republic, but they act just like the Rebellion. The rebel fleet in TROS are “just people”, but it is the largest armada, you have ever seen. To me this is why much of what happens in the ST so hollow. Fleets, resources, evil overlords, and Force powers are just pulled out of thin air, or conjured, whenever the script requires it. Lando musters an entire fleet of random people from all over the galaxy in a matter of hours, the way a kid goes home to get his brothers to help him fight the neighbourhood bullies. There’s no sense of time, or scale, and it ultimately ends up feeling totally inconsequential. One fleet that comes out of nowhere destroys another fleet, that comes out of nowhere.