DrCrowTStarwars

Oh yeah that episode is great and I love Worf's line about not talking about why Klingons look different to outsiders.

Oh and mistaking Chekov for Kirk is an all time great moment too.

Oh and A face in the Crowd is another good movie I don't hear many people talk about.

Warbler said:

Look I am sorry I am not saying all Star Trek is bad but I just can't watch those scenes with Kirk without feeling ill. Sorry if I over reacted but I just don't do well with the type of sexism that was pretty much mainstream in the 1960s.

In my head I guess I know I should just get over it but I can't watch those scenes without thinking too much about them. Sorry.

 its ok. 

myself I am more open to viewing things in the time that they were created.  Not having someone personally known to me who was rapped, I guess makes it easier.  One thing you do have to understand is that if a show were made today and main character threated women the way Kirk does, I would have a problem with that.   If you are unwilling to give older TV shows and older movies some slack in the politically correct department, you will never enjoy a lot of stuff that is older than twenty years.

 Normally I am I watch a lot of old films but I guess because of my history this is just one issue where I can't get over it. Maybe I over reacted because this is my one hot button issue and I am sorry if I did.  It's just to me it seems like when they have Kirk or James Bond grab a woman and then cut away(Because they were not allowed to show sex on the screen at the time)they are strongly implying that he forced the woman to have sex with him and then they tend to play it as he was so good at sex that she didn't mind him forcing her to have sex with him. 

As I said it's my problem no one else's. It's just the whole "She wanted it" excuse sticks in my craw and always upsets me when I see it or hear it implied.  I really do love Star Trek(Well everything except Voyager and the first two seasons of Enterprise),it's just this one thing that always bugs me. That is all. 

Let's return to talking about the things we like about Star Trek not the things that make us feel ill because they are a hot button issue for us,okay.

My favorite episode is a tie between In the Pale Moonlight and The Trouble with Tribbles. Those are two of the most perfect hours of television ever made if you ask me.

DuracellEnergizer said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

STUPID RASH! It itches so much it's painful and I can't sleep,always happens when pollen is in the air. I hate spring. I am so tired I am hardly able to move durring the day but I still itch too much to get to sleep. If I don't get a full eight hour soon i am going to snap and go on a killing spree.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ouch. I sneeze and get congested like crazy from pollen every April-May, but I never get itchy or rashes. That must suck like hell.

 Yeah I have been that way since I was two and yes it does suck and I have been to a lot of doctors and none of them can help. Oh and you know what really sucks,have you ever tried asking a girl out when your body is cover in a rash? yeah doesn't go over too well. That and a movement disorder that keeps me from being able to drive a car,good times.

Still it could be worse. I mean I am otherwise healthy and I have gotten to read a lot of good books and see a lot of films.  Still if there is one thing I would change about myself it is this rash,that and I would lose about one hundred pounds.

Because all of those evil monsters on the other teams have been bribing reffs and drugging the gardoraid that is the only explanation for why The Packers and the Ravens have not won another Superbowl!!!! I really hate those guys!!

Well one of my favorite film of the 1950s is the Billy Wilder film Ace in the Hole. I don't know if it is well known but I am the only person I know who has seen it so I am guessing it wasn't a huge hit when it came out. It's set in the time period it was made,the 1950s and it a great film.  It some times also goes by the name The Big Carnival.  It's worth checking out IMO.

Well first of all I didn't think Black Widow was hitting on him,for half the movie he didn't trust her and the other half they seemed more like friends then anything else.

I also think that Cap is still getting his head around the fact that so many years have passed,so he just isn't ready to move on. it's been over 70 years for everyone else but it has only been a year or so for him. I don't think in this movie he had yet reached the point where he was ready to move on from his girlfriend(I can't believe I am blanking on her name right now,but that is what happens when you sleep for a bout two hours in three days)from the 1940s. Remember he was a very shy guy and I think part of him still is and she was the first woman he had a real relationship with so i think part of his arc in this movie was getting to the point where he could move on and that wasn't going to happen with BW. Part of the problem was that his job makes it easy for him to hide from his personal problems and getting together with someone in the same line of work wouldn't fix that,if anything it would make the problem worse. Also didn't Avengers kind of hint that BW and HE were kind of an item? To someone of Cap's generation getting together with BW would kind of be like stealing a team member's girl and I can't see him doing that.

So for those reasons it really didn't bother me that he didn't get together with BW.

Well the person I know who was raped was a kid when it happened and this was back in the 60s and the guy argued that while he had to grab her she didn't fight back hard enough so she must have wanted it. Her parents and the police bought that story so it was case closed. Look I am sorry I am not saying all Star Trek is bad but I just can't watch those scenes with Kirk without feeling ill. Sorry if I over reacted but I just don't do well with the type of sexism that was pretty much mainstream in the 1960s.

In my head I guess I know I should just get over it but I can't watch those scenes without thinking too much about them. Sorry.

STUPID RASH! It itches so much it's painful and I can't sleep,always happens when pollen is in the air. I hate spring. I am so tired I am hardly able to move durring the day but I still itch too much to get to sleep. If I don't get a full eight hour soon i am going to snap and go on a killing spree.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DuracellEnergizer said:

If he has, it hasn't been since the mid '80s at the latest. Or he's trying to imply that Bill's assessment of Superman -- and by extention his assessment of the Bride's character herself -- is a load of BS (I don't know if Tarantino is capable of such subtlety, though).

 Yeah I have never seen Tarantino pull off anything close to that so i really don't think that is it.  It could be but I don't get that feeling from the movie. if anything the way the scene is shot and acted leads me to believe that it's supposed to prove that Bill is really smart and has deep insights into people,even comic book characters.

Warbler said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

SilverWook said:

bkev said:

I think it only reaches rape level of creepy very few times, but there's a clear focus on Kirk getting the girl because he's the hero.  Still enjoy TOS, for sure, but I'm more enthralled by DS9.

 I'm sorry, you're going to have to cite specific examples of Kirk getting rapey. And The Enemy Within does not count. ;)

The number of times Kirk definitely got laid in the entire series hovers around three. Two of these were scenarios where he was being held captive, Bread and Circuses, Wink of an Eye. One was where he had lost his memory, The Paradise Syndrome.

Eddie Murphy famously did a bit in his stand up show about how "Kirk f****d a green b*tch" but it never actually happened.

 Really so that bit in Mirror Mirror where he grabs that woman and she was trying to break lose from his grip,that doesn't count?

I guess no really means yes.

 He didn't rape her.

If the stuff Kirk did bothers you guys that much, I guess you must really hate the classic Bond movies. 

 Okay I am sorry. Nothing in TOs is dated and anyone who doesn't think every second of the show is perfect and who is uncomfortable with anything on the show is a moron and and should be burned alive in the town square.

I am sorry I know that now adays grabbing a woman and not letting go isn't seen as rape. i guess I was just raised wrong and I am sorry for that. I admit I am the worst person who ever lived because i dared to question the actions of Captain kirk. i will now go and kill myself because I am clearly an evil monster who has no right to live.  Can we move on.

Look I know someone who was raped and the guy who did it never got into any trouble because he used the Kirk argument,so excuse me if I am not ready to let him off of the hook as easily as the rest of you. If you have the grab the woman and she tries to break free that is rape and being undercover is no excuse. I'm sorry I know that in the modern world it is wrong to be bothered by things like rape but it still bothers me. Sorry I know that makes me an awful person but it just does and I have tried to change but I have not been able to yet.

This is why I hate Star trek fandom. It's all a bunch of worship and different views are never welcome.  All you are ever allowed to say is Kirk is great and Roddenbury is god and created the universe. Everyone always has to walk in lockstep and never question anything.  For a show that is supposed to be about love and free thinking,the fans are some of the most closed minded and hateful people I have ever met.

I am done with this thread I thought maybe it would be different then the Star Trek sites I was a member of in the past seeing as it is on a Star Wars site but it is just more of the same.  I will never get along with other Star Trek fans so I am done trying.

SilverWook said:

bkev said:

I think it only reaches rape level of creepy very few times, but there's a clear focus on Kirk getting the girl because he's the hero.  Still enjoy TOS, for sure, but I'm more enthralled by DS9.

 I'm sorry, you're going to have to cite specific examples of Kirk getting rapey. And The Enemy Within does not count. ;)

The number of times Kirk definitely got laid in the entire series hovers around three. Two of these were scenarios where he was being held captive, Bread and Circuses, Wink of an Eye. One was where he had lost his memory, The Paradise Syndrome.

Eddie Murphy famously did a bit in his stand up show about how "Kirk f****d a green b*tch" but it never actually happened.

 Really so that bit in Mirror Mirror where he grabs that woman and she was trying to break lose from his grip,that doesn't count?

I guess no really means yes.

Also there were the insanely short miniskirts the woman were force to where while the men got pants and the fact that the show almost always played sexy jazz music whenever a woman was on screen. That's a bit cringe worthy in this day and age I have to say. I am pretty sure most people agree because as I said that character trait was the one thing they didn't bring back in the movies,so I think by the time the 80s rolled around they knew better then to try and pull that off.

As someone who was a Star Trek fan and not a B5 fan in the 90s I have to say I think I may know why B5 fans and Star Trek fans don't get along and part of it may be our fault.  That is not to say that there are not B5 fans who are not jerks but I had on e friend when I was a kid who was a B5 fan and the rest were Star Trek fans and remembering how we used to treat him does not make me proud. heck years later when I went online for the first time i remember how myself and other Star Trek fans used to troll B5 message boards and make really personal attacks against JMS and some of the actors.  I remember that we used to mock everything about B5,from the CGI,to the actors,and we even used to accuse B5 of stealing all their ideas from Star trek. Heck i remember a petition being started to try and get production stopped on the B5 computer game(Sadly the game was never released for other reasons)on the grounds that if it had space ship in it and an alliance of planets then it was ripped off of Star Trek. I am ashamed to say I signed that one.

Of course years latter I learned about how Paramount was the first place JMS pitched B5 and how he showed them the series bible and some of his early ideas ended up in Star Trek movies and episodes after they turned him down. Now has he stirred the pot since,sure. Is it the fault of Star Trek fans that the studio did that? No. Still I think that caused him and the fans to become very defensive and I would be lying if I said I didn't understand why. I think the fans got tired of always having to defend their favorite show so they started going on the attack to try and drive Star Trek fans away,and soon you couldn't be a fan of both shows.  That is a shame because now that I have seen both shows years latter I can say they are nothing alike and there is room in my heart for both shows.

As for why Star Trek fans did it?  I can only say that I think we were all scared. We were used to Star Trek being top dog and getting all the praise and then all of the sudden out of nowhere this little upstart show came that was enough like Star Trek that it was in directly competing in Star Tek's main medium. Yeah we had had Star Wars before but that was a one hundred percent different type of story and it was movies and Star Trek was on TV,by the time Star Trek got really popular in movie theaters Star Wars was onto it's last movie so we didn't really have to worry about Star Wars stealing anything from Star trek.  Then all of the sudden this new show with a strong fan base and lots of buzz from critics came along on TV,while Star Trek was airing!  It seemed like there was a chance it could beat Star Trek and if Star Trek was beat would that mean the end of the franchise?!  I think a lot of us assumed the worst without ever seeing more then a picture of a Centuria and without watching an episode of the show we decided that this show was a cheap silly knock off that was trying to force Star Trek off of the air and when the writer said some negative things about Star Trek that just confirmed it. Star Trek always had a strong fan base that defended the show and we sprung into action to take down the imposter and save Star Trek. It seems silly now but as I recall that is how I am a lot of others felt and in trying to save star trek we destroyed any chance of the two fan bases getting along.

Were there faults on both sides? Yes there sure were I knew some B5 fans online who could be very mean.  Still as a Star Trek fan i have to say myself and others bare a large portion of blame for creating a rift that sadly exists to this day.

If they don't know that already(What with one of them being a female)you may be sending them to the wrong school.

bkev said:

I think it only reaches rape level of creepy very few times, but there's a clear focus on Kirk getting the girl because he's the hero.  Still enjoy TOS, for sure, but I'm more enthralled by DS9.

 Oh don't get me wrong it's only a few times and again i love the show but it only takes once for me to feel ill.  Sorry maybe I am reading too much into it but that sort of thing has always made me feel a little sick.

Still there are plenty of great episodes where that doesn't happen,I am just saying I know some people who consider TOS to be the low point of the franchise and will not watch it for that reason and while you and I may think they are being short sighted I would be lying if I said I don't understand how they feel.

Still any show that produced Balance of Terror is okay in my book.

ray_afraid said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

SilverWook said:

Not his most unusual role...

I'll never watch X-Men 3, but if I were to, it'd only be to see Grammer as the Beast.

 Same!
In the 90's I always read Beast's dialog in Grammers voice.
And Professor X was Patrick Stewart.

 Third! 

As a kid i always felt Beast was just Frasier from Cheers with blue fur so when i heard about his casting I was happy that they were getting at least one thing right.

bkev said:

Warbler said:

bkev said:

Jetrell Fo said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Oh, and IMO, DS9 didn't fuck up Star Trek. If anything, it rectified some of the damage that TNG had done and restored some of the fun to the ST Universe that had been lacking in it since the TOS films had come to an end.

I agree with you 100% on this.  DS9 gave Star Trek it's teeth back.

 Also agreed.  DS9 took a few seasons to find its groove -- if Sisko's not bald, you're probably watching the wrong episode -- but man did it get good.  I especially liked the moral ambiguities of the Federation in this series.  showing that we're not perfect is always important in Trek, even if it's at the cost of some of the Utopian imagery.

 You mean the Utopian imagery that was Roddenberry original premise for Star Trek?  That humanity had improved and advanced? 

 In a sense, yes.  The original Trek epitomizes Space Age optimism as presented in pop culture and, I think, as a culture we have become too world wise - or cynical, take your pick - to accept that.  An ambiguous storyline is more compelling than B-Movie television.  DrCrow's thoughts on Garak point to why I enjoy DS9 as a whole and he said it well enough I don't need to.

In terms of TOS being a utopia, the only real problem I have with that universe is   the blatant sexism.  

 Yeah I love TOS like a child and I didn't pick up on it as a kid but rewatching the episodes now some are hard to get through without feeling a little ill.  There are episodes where Kirk pretty much forces himself on woman and yet they fall in love with him because he was just that good at sex????  So rape is okay as long as you are good at it,I guess.

Notice that in the movies they didn't have Kirk do any of that stuff because times had already changed enough for that to not appeal to movie goers in the 1980s.

Give me DS9's shades of gray over the hero committing rape and not a word being said about it any day of the week.

Ever had one of those nights where your bladder keeps waking you up but then when you get to the bathroom you don't have to go?  I had to put of with that last night and now I am dead tired.

You win the internet!

CatBus said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

CatBus said:

Harmy said:

Oh, well, it's true of most projectors, but it's possible that some projectors can actually do true 24fps but I've never seen one. I know that digital projectors in cinemas definitely have higher refresh rates then 24Hz, so it seems curious, that a home projector would do native 24fps.

But with a color wheel, the projector has to refresh 3 times for each full-color frame, so my guess would be, that its true refresh rate for 24fps sources is 72Hz, thus producing 24fps in full color and for higher frame-rate sources, it's capable of even higher refresh rates.

Yeah, and 120Hz+ displays should be able to do the same thing.  So if the player upscales 720p24 to 1080p24, the only conversion is the image upscale, no change to the frame cadence.  If it converts to 720p60, it's likely the display will need to upscale the image too, so you get both conversions.

Again, not so you'd notice for the most part. But you do need to hand in your videophile card if someone catches you watching film at 60Hz.  I hear they take your plasma away too ;-)

 What do they do to you if you only have an LCD that goes up to 60hz?

Not that I would know anything about that,or know anyone who would know anything about that.

Usually you can escape from them when they're facepalming, so you'll be fine.

 So it's just like that time I had to get away from captain Picard when I wrecked his toilet.

I found out that this exists.

Warbler said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

bkev said:

Jetrell Fo said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Oh, and IMO, DS9 didn't fuck up Star Trek. If anything, it rectified some of the damage that TNG had done and restored some of the fun to the ST Universe that had been lacking in it since the TOS films had come to an end.

I agree with you 100% on this.  DS9 gave Star Trek it's teeth back.

 Also agreed.  DS9 took a few seasons to find its groove -- if Sisko's not bald, you're probably watching the wrong episode -- but man did it get good.  I especially liked the moral ambiguities of the Federation in this series.  showing that we're not perfect is always important in Trek, even if it's at the cost of some of the Utopian imagery.

Also, seriously.  Jeffrey Combs as Weyoun.  Andrew Robinson as Garak.  PERFECT casting and acting.  In fact, I think the whole cast is strong (but they are the standouts.)  Hell, even Terry Farrell learns to act after a few seasons; a part of me wonders if she really did get attached to Jadzia.

 Yeah not to mention that just watching the characters interact was fun and very interesting.  The episode where Garak tortures Odo is a stand out if you ask me as is any episode with the Maquis,

 that episode made me unfortable.  I lost a lot of respect for Garak's character after that.  I was also unhappy that  Garak wasn't made to pay for what he did to Odo.   What he did was just sick. 

 That's the point in real life the guilty don't always get punished and Garak was never supposed to be a nice guy. He was always a thug who ended up on the wrong side of politics and you weren't supposed to ever totally like him. he was supposed to be a danger to everyone who got between him and his goals and that episode showed that and was completely in character.  That why I liked DS9 because they let the characters be more complex then other Star trek shows,there were not just heroes and villains there were shades of grey in between.

Warbler said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

Yeah for my money it is the best written Sci-Fi show ever to air on American TV.

WHAT!!??????!!!!

YOU WOULD DARE TO SAY THIS . . . IN A STAR TREK THREAD!!!?!?!?!!!

*beats up DrCrowTStarwars*

Now get the hell out of this thread!  

Okay but for the record I love Star Trek and Doctor Who too but I think B5 was over all the better written show. That is all.

Now should I talk about why I love SG1 in here or will that just get me beat up again?

Yeah for my money it is the best written Sci-Fi show ever to air on American TV. if you can get past the early use of CGI(Hey some one had to be first)and the fact that it takes a few episodes to find it's feet it is full of good acting,an amazing story,and very complex characters and situations. I can still get into debates with people over if Londo was a villain or not and to tell you the truth I am still not decided myself.

Oh and it contains the greatest moment of pure awesome ever seen on a Sci-Fi show...

"Now get the hell out of our galaxy!"

Warbler said:

From our conversation in the "If you need to B*tch about something... this is the place" Thread

DuracellEnergizer said:

Let's see ... how did TNG fuck things up ...

In no particular order:

All the pseudoscientific technobabble. I don't remember TOS ever resorting to this crap to any significant degree.

I think they was some techobabble in TOS

The stupid "The Federation is a 110% perfect, atheist utopia that never does anything wrong and never uses money" crap.

It was kind of a utopia in TOS and in TNG, they Admirals and other Captians making mistakes.

Making it so that there is never any major conflict between the main characters of the show. Everyone just always gets along like one big, boring family from some '50s-'80s sitcom. 

They got along mostly in TOS.  Well ok, Spoke and Mccoy fought alot.

The overuse of human and rubber forehead aliens.

I thought the make jobs were pretty good, especially compared to TOS

Turning the Klingons into stupid, dirty, one-note brutes.

?

You must have been watching a different set of Klingons than I was watching.   The Klingons I was watching were turned from the dirth one-note brutes they had been in TOS to honor bound warriors in TNG.

Never allowing the interesting characters like Data to ever significantly grow and develop.

name me one character that developed in TOS?

Oh, and IMO, DS9 didn't fuck up Star Trek.

what about the war?

 Yeah very well said.  TNG was at least as good a show as TOS,it built on the foundation and then grew in ways TOs didn't. Both shows were very good.

Also as much as I love DS9 I do get the feeling that the only reason the war happened was because B5 was having a big war on their show and the producers of Star Trek wanted to cash in on that.  That is not to say there were not a ton of good episodes in the war arc but i don't think Star Trek would have gone there if B5 had not given them the push.